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-BP gear macro/timingFollow

#1 May 26 2009 at 6:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Silly question right?
I want to know how some of you setup your macro for switching to -bp gear to do bloodpacts and switching back,the process like do you change gear then bp or issue bp and change gear.

How does changing gear effect your MP?
How low can you get your BP timer with gear you can buy?
I would like to know the exact sequence of your macro.

Thank you,
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#2 May 26 2009 at 8:28 AM Rating: Decent
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every avatar has its own macro pallete / half a macro set. and i have 1 central macro set.

so macro set 1 would be for example ctrl+1 carby, ctrl+2 fenrir ctrl+3 diabolos etc etc

now from this each macro has a jump to a new macro set. for example my carby macro looks like this

/equip apollos staff
/equip carbuncle mitts
/ma carbuncle
/macro set 2

on this new macro set the ctrl line changes so ctrl+1 becomes "main" which is carby related gear swaps for -perp, ctrl+2 becomes "Pact" which piles on avatar boosts from skill/af/relic etc.

then ctrl+3 is healing ruby (yes i still use it at 75 6mp for a cure3 is win!)
ctrl+4 is healing ruby2 ctrl+5 meteorite etc etc etc

the alt line of macros i copied on every set for things like erase cure3 curaga silena stoneskin so no matter what set i'm on i can still get cures and ~nas out fast

so based on this from if i wanted to summon carbuncle and meteorite a goblin. i would press ctrl+1 which would swap my mitts and stave, cast carbuncle and jump to his macro set. then i'd press ctrl 2 for carby "pact" gear swaps. to swap in my relic feet af legs etc etc. then press ctrl+5 to make him meterorite the desired goblin. then press ctrl+1 after to put on carbys "melee" gear.

each avatar has there own "main" + "pact" macro gear swaps as there's slight changes for each for example carbys perp is so low that he is free even without my af+1 feet so i full time relic with carbuncle. garudas macros include karura in the place of af+1 horn and diabolos macros focus more on skill and less on avatar accuracy and attack. as his netherblast is magical

my macros follow this kind of system but i've oredered my avatars by element some people go by day others just random. so for me 4 on my macro palete is ifrit 5 is shiva 6 is garuda (fire > ice > wind) just my way of remember what elements beats what lol.

forgot to mention. my bloodpact timers are typically 51 or 53 seconds, relic hands (-2) relic feet (-2) then either yyr (-5) or relic body (-3). I could get less but i feel its not worth it, for example using relic/austere legs means i lose the af legs accuracy bonus, or swapping head pieces means i lose either skill+ or in the case of garuda i lose att, def and perp.

Edited, May 26th 2009 1:01pm by Dzian
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#3 May 26 2009 at 8:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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aldistuck wrote:
How does changing gear effect your MP?

I don't know. I don't pay attention to my MP because I don't gear for MP+. I'm pretty sure that macro swapping causes me to lose 50 or so MP, but after the first BP, it doesn't matter anyway.

Quote:
How low can you get your BP timer with gear you can buy?

That would be Austere gear. NQ Austere will give you -6 among the pieces. HQ Austere (Penance) would give you -9. However, it would be ill-advised to not at least quest some of your AF gear, since a fair amount of it is going to be useful the rest of your Summoning life.

Quote:
I would like to know the exact sequence of your macro.

Thank you,


Since I have a palette devoted to each Avatar, my macros look like this:

Macro 1 - Summon (Control 1)
Macro 2 (optional) - Assault (Control 2)
Macro 3 - BP Reduction gear (Alt 3)
Macro 4 - BP itself (including +Smn. Skill gear) (Alt 4-7)
Macro 5 - "Standing" macro, which is basically -Perp. Gear and an Orochi Nodowa since I use a Sacrifice Torque during my Rage BPs.

With your Avatar out, use one macro to swap into your BP reduction gear. The optimal time to switch from BP- to +Skill would be as your Avatar does their "readying" animation for the BP in question. You don't need any sort of delay since the animation takes longer than the actual game calculations (which are near instantaneous). After your Avatar completes the BP, use another macro to swap back into perpetuation gear, or resting gear if you dismiss, etc. etc.
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#4 May 26 2009 at 9:15 AM Rating: Excellent
I have yet to take the plunge and create a separate macro palette for each avatar, so my macros are a little clumsy at the moment:

- a summon macro for each avatar, with appropriate elemental staff and either carby mitts /nashira gages
- BP delay reduction gear: relic, yyr (alternately, austere)
- BP Ward gear: max Summoning Magic skill
- BP Rage gear: avatar attack/acc
- perpetuation gear: AF+1 boots, nashira gages, etc.

The sequence currently goes something like this:

1. Summon macro
2. Assault the mob
3. Hit BP Delay equipment macro
4. Issue the Blood Pact
5. During the readying anmation, hit the Rage or Ward equipment macro
6. Wait for the BP to land
7. Hit Perpetuation equipment macro if leaving the avatar out; otherwise release.

I generally don't worry about max MP equipment, except when resting to full.
When I redo my macros, I'll put the Rage/Ward equipment into the same macro as the BP, and do a bit more avatar-specific tweaking (e.g. Karura Hachigane)
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#5 May 26 2009 at 9:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Ok, so I have basically the same kind of thing going with my macro sets.
I have a seperate set for each avatar.
I'm I wrong with the thought that + summoning skill increases damage with physical bloodpacts?

I ask that because I was wondering about the process of swapping to -bp gear, initiating bloodpact then swapping to + summoning skill gear to get max damage.
I think thats what you were getting at Dzian but wanted to clarify.

You said I didnt need a wait timer so could my macro look like this:
/ equip head "Austere Hat"
/equip insert here lol
/bp "Mountain Buster" <t>
/equip head "Evokers Horn"
/equip insert here

Does that work and will give me the minus to bp and then the + summoning magic?

At the moment I have no AF2, I would like to obtain it but it hasnt happened yet.
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#6 May 26 2009 at 9:31 AM Rating: Decent
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aldistuck wrote:
I want to know how some of you setup your macro for switching to -bp gear to do bloodpacts and switching back,the process like do you change gear then bp or issue bp and change gear.


Bascially, my BP issue macro looks something like this:
/equip (-BP gears)
/pet <insert rage> <t>
/wait 1
/equip (avatar +stats gears)

After BP goes off, I'll press another macro to switch back to -perp gears.

I believe doing these gear swap will eat some of my MP away. But since it will only affect me when I'm at full MP, it dosen't really matter in the long run.

aldistuck wrote:
You said I didnt need a wait timer so could my macro look like this:
/ equip head "Austere Hat"
/equip insert here lol
/bp "Mountain Buster" <t>
/equip head "Evokers Horn"
/equip insert here

Does that work and will give me the minus to bp and then the + summoning magic?

No, I think the 2nd gear swap wouldn't happen. You have to put a /wait in between.


Edited, May 26th 2009 5:35pm by yipkwokonn
#7 May 26 2009 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
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yipkwokonn wrote:
aldistuck wrote:
You said I didnt need a wait timer so could my macro look like this:
/ equip head "Austere Hat"
/equip insert here lol
/bp "Mountain Buster" <t>
/equip head "Evokers Horn"
/equip insert here

Does that work and will give me the minus to bp and then the + summoning magic?

No, I think the 2nd gear swap wouldn't happen. You have to put a /wait in between.

While you are correct that the macro wouldn't work, it's not always the case.

Just to clarify, you often don't need a /wait. However, there can be a problem with it interpreting your swap as a "toggle". What I mean by that is when you make a macro that has two /equip commands for the same equipment slot, it will ignore one of the two commands. If you already have the first piece equipped, it'll ignore the first and equip the second. Otherwise it'll equip the first and ignore the second. Putting /pet commands and other similar commands between the /equip macros doesn't seem to stop this from happening, but a /wait does.


Thus, this won't work:
/equip head "Summoner's Horn"
/pet "Hastega" <me>
/equip head "Marduk's Tiara"
/equip legs "Marduk's Shalwar"


However, adding a "/wait" or swapping the order of the last two lines would solve the problem:
/equip head "Summoner's Horn"
/pet "Hastega" <me>
/wait 1
/equip head "Marduk's Tiara"
/equip legs "Marduk's Shalwar"

/equip head "Summoner's Horn"
/pet "Hastega" <me>
/equip legs "Marduk's Shalwar"
/equip head "Marduk's Tiara"

The only reason I bring this up is because it can be nice to know if you are running out of macro lines and want to get rid of that /wait by changing the order in which you swap the gear. The only time the /wait actually serves a function is if you have it before swapping something that increases MP drain such as Sacrifice Torque or swapping out a piece that reduces perp cost.

Edited, May 26th 2009 12:38pm by Pergatory
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#8 May 26 2009 at 11:44 AM Rating: Decent
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aldistuck wrote:
I'm I wrong with the thought that + summoning skill increases damage with physical bloodpacts?

I ask that because I was wondering about the process of swapping to -bp gear, initiating bloodpact then swapping to + summoning skill gear to get max damage.
I think thats what you were getting at Dzian but wanted to clarify.


To my knowledge skill doesnt affect avatar damage. does have an affect on avatars accuracy which can in turn relate to their damage. (more hits = more damage) so its a secondary focus in my rage macros.

To be specific here's my gear set for Predator Claws

Main: Austers Staff (perp-3)
Off: Staff Strap (mp+20 emnity-2)
Ammo: Hedgehog bomb (Mp+30)
Head: Karura Hachigane (garuda -2 garuda attack & defence bonus)
Neck: Summoning torque (smn skill +7)
ear 1: Magnetic / loquatious (doesnt matter)
ear2: Summoning Earring (smn skill+3)
body: YYR or Relic (avatar crit+3% or refresh mp dependant)
hands Relic (enhances avatar accuracy / smn skill + 10)
Ring 1: anything i use serket.
Ring 2: Evokers (avatar perp -1 / smn skill + 10)
Back : intensifying cape (would be the skill +5 from sea but i dont have time)
Waist: Penitents (emnity-5 + spirit taker mods)
Legs: AF+1 ( enhances Avatar accuracy)
Feet: Relic (enhances avatar Attack)

so you can see where my gear is focused. primarily on boosting avatar stats with skill as a secondary boost where it's available. think this is pretty much a spot on macro for garuda grants a good deal of stat boosts and at the same time gives enough skill to cap hastega.

only things i'd like to change are Getting the cape from sea and a Bahamut's Staff with those i think it's an almost perfect set up.
hope it helps


Edited, May 26th 2009 3:47pm by Dzian
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#9 May 26 2009 at 4:10 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
How does changing gear effect your MP?


That is an interesting thing I've noticed when summoning carby. The change to carby mitts usually lower my MP max, and I've noticed that after summoning carby I'm usually at cap. So it would seem like summoning cost is deducted from the MP pool you had before gear changing.

Not sure if it depends on timing since I've only observed it a few times and mostly never thought about it.
#10 May 26 2009 at 6:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Bascially, my BP issue macro looks something like this:
/equip (-BP gears)
/pet <insert rage> <t>
/wait 1
/equip (avatar +stats gears)

After BP goes off, I'll press another macro to switch back to -perp gears.


Pretty much what I do, except in my Summon macro is all my Perp gear, so I just hit the Avatar macro again for Perp.

I dont have a MP+ set (Well, not that I use) so it doesn't have a large impact on my overall MP. It's only the first BP that it woule be a concern anyway, even if then (With Perp costs having already eaten away the difference.)
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#11 May 27 2009 at 5:50 AM Rating: Good
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Dzian wrote:
aldistuck wrote:
I'm I wrong with the thought that + summoning skill increases damage with physical bloodpacts?

I ask that because I was wondering about the process of swapping to -bp gear, initiating bloodpact then swapping to + summoning skill gear to get max damage.
I think thats what you were getting at Dzian but wanted to clarify.


To my knowledge skill doesnt affect avatar damage. does have an affect on avatars accuracy which can in turn relate to their damage. (more hits = more damage) so its a secondary focus in my rage macros.


Summoning skill should be the primary focus in your rage macros. You get oodles more opportunity to equip Skill than you get to increase your damage. And since our most utilized physical BPs (Predator Claws, Chaotic Strike) are multiple hit, you should prioritize Accuracy over Attack.
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#12 May 27 2009 at 5:55 AM Rating: Default
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And since our most utilized physical BPs (Predator Claws, Chaotic Strike) are multiple hit, you should prioritize Accuracy over Attack.


I never feel like accuracy is what gives the incredible spike damage, but rather crits. I don't know, maybe I've just been doing 2 of 3 hits my entire life so I've never noticed how much 2k damage you can do with good accuracy.
#13 May 27 2009 at 8:37 AM Rating: Good
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Mellowy wrote:
Quote:
And since our most utilized physical BPs (Predator Claws, Chaotic Strike) are multiple hit, you should prioritize Accuracy over Attack.


I never feel like accuracy is what gives the incredible spike damage, but rather crits. I don't know, maybe I've just been doing 2 of 3 hits my entire life so I've never noticed how much 2k damage you can do with good accuracy.


You equip Accuracy for consistant damage, not for spikes in damage output.

Multiple Hit Accuracy Model:
Know that each hit of a multi-hit weaponskill, or bloodpact, runs through the accuracy calculation individually.

When Garuda has an average accuracy rating of 70%, the following reflects the percentage of time that she will connect all 3 hits of Predator Claws:
Hit 1   Hit 2   Hit 3    3/3 Hit Accuracy 
(.70) x (.70) x (.70) =    .343 or 34.3% 


Hypothetically, if +20 Summoning Skill raises Garuda's accuracy on BPs by 10%, effectively making it 80%, then the model for 3/3 Pred Claws looks like this:
Hit 1   Hit 2   Hit 3    3/3 Hit Accuracy 
(.80) x (.80) x (.80) =    .512 or 51.2% 


In the same hypotheticals, if Garuda can reach the soft Accuracy cap of 95%, the model looks like this:
Hit 1   Hit 2   Hit 3    3/3 Hit Accuracy 
(.95) x (.95) x (.95) =    .8574 or 85.74%


Mellowy, at the best possible situation, Predator Claws will still miss one hit of the three 15 times in 100. And we both know that the best possible situation is not realistic for many mobs that a Summoner places his avatar on.

For those of you reading, if you do not know how multi-hit weaponskills/BPs work in terms of accuracy, learn this, and never forget it.

In addition, straight Accuracy increase does nothing for critical hit rate either, unless Avatars are coded differently (highly unlikely). Indirectly, I guess, the more hits you connect, the more opportunity you have to hit for a critical, which just reinforces the use of Summoning Skill in multi-hit BPs that can critical.
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#14 May 27 2009 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Acturus wrote:
Summoning skill should be the primary focus in your rage macros. You get oodles more opportunity to equip Skill than you get to increase your damage. And since our most utilized physical BPs (Predator Claws, Chaotic Strike) are multiple hit, you should prioritize Accuracy over Attack.


while in theory i do agree the primary focus on multi-hit rage pacts should be skill (accuracy)...
in practice its just to expensive to do so. for example taking my set up listed above i have put smn torque over sacrifice torque for the skill.

but replacing other slots is just not worth it. with pred claws i could swap karura for af horn and get skill+5 but it's a killer loss of att/def bonus and perp -2, i could swap af legs for oracles and get skill+5 but again its a big loss of direct accuracy bonus granted by af legs.

Essentially there just isn't anything out there that offers enough skill to compete with the direct stat boosts offered by af/relic/karura and as such its just not worth prioritising skill over these types of avatar boosts thus skill becomes secondary

Edited, May 27th 2009 6:44pm by Dzian
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#15 May 27 2009 at 10:36 PM Rating: Good
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Dzian wrote:
but replacing other slots is just not worth it. with pred claws i could swap karura for af horn and get skill+5 but it's a killer loss of att/def bonus and perp -2
I want to know what you're fighting where Karura's attack boost is "killer." Everything I've seen points to it being modest at best. Without knowing the exact correlation skill has on accuracy, it's safe to assume it's better. Only at high accuracy rates will attack beat accuracy. Think Cuchulains vs Amemet+1 or Foragers (even just WSing).

As for the -2 perp, you should be swapping BP gear out when it's done, you lose something like 4 MP a BP.
Dzian wrote:
i could swap af legs for oracles and get skill+5 but again its a big loss of direct accuracy bonus granted by af legs.
They're both accuracy, with AF probably edging out. Don't forget, the argument was that skill increases accuracy, and the accuracy is what makes it a primary concern.

Dzian wrote:
Essentially there just isn't anything out there that offers enough skill to compete with the direct stat boosts offered by af/relic/karura and as such its just not worth prioritising skill over these types of avatar boosts thus skill becomes secondary
For all we know, the attack boost could be anything from +5 to just +10. Attack is only a fractional increase to the final damage (something like base dmg * att/def). If anything, accuracy is a better direct stat boost than attack, it's a direct increase to your hit rate. It takes a large amount of attack to cause more damage than additional hits. Across any given time period, consistency usually wins.

Does that mean you ignore attack? No, but you don't equip it based on assumptions, eyeballing (which I'm betting you did), or "killer" boosts. You need to figure out when your hit rate is high enough that attack edges out, and I'm willing to bet few SMNs actually reach that level.

Our biggest obstacle is figuring out how skill correlates to accuracy. It's a non-trivial ratio, all things considered, given most SMNs reports.

Edited, May 28th 2009 12:39am by jlejeune
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#16 May 28 2009 at 5:06 AM Rating: Good
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Dzian wrote:
while in theory i do agree the primary focus on multi-hit rage pacts should be skill (accuracy)...
in practice its just to expensive to do so. for example taking my set up listed above i have put smn torque over sacrifice torque for the skill.

[...]

Essentially there just isn't anything out there that offers enough skill to compete with the direct stat boosts offered by af/relic/karura and as such its just not worth prioritising skill over these types of avatar boosts thus skill becomes secondary


Let's focus on specific slot alternatives then.

Head: You have the "free" Karura Hachigane, and the "free" Evoker's Horn.

Neck: You have the "cheap" Sacrifice Torque at maybe 3-5K, and the more modest Summoning Torque at 50-75K.

Feet: You have the "free" Summoner's Pigs, and the "free" Nashira Crackows, or the not-so-free Marduk's Pigs.

Where exactly is the massive expense in gearing Summoning Skill in the same slots that offer you Attack bonuses?

Outside of that, without being able to quantify how much an attack bonus or accuracy bonus gives, how do you compare it to the straight skill increase?

I recognize that there is a big gaping hole in the community's understanding of how Avatar bonuses work, and how Skill relates to accuracy, but it doesn't affect us nearly to the degree that you seem to suggest it does.

I've always applied what I have learned from leveling a melee job to my Avatars, and at the core of it all is the simple philosophy that, "If you can't hit the damn thing, then it doesn't matter how much damage you are gearing to do."

Accuracy comes first. If you trust your accuracy, start playing with your damage potential.

Edited, May 28th 2009 9:07am by Acturus
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#17 May 28 2009 at 9:59 AM Rating: Default
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Don't forget, the argument was that skill increases accuracy

Quote:
To my knowledge skill doesnt affect avatar damage. does have an affect on avatars accuracy which can in turn relate to their damage. (more hits = more damage

The arguement has never been that skill improves accuracy. the arguement is essentially whether skill should take priority over other stats.

about a year ago ago i did some testing on the af legs. nothing extravagant just beat the hell out of a bunch of even match crabs in the tree without them and then beat the crap out of a bunch of even match crabs in the tree with them. while limited tests i'd found af to give my avatar (fenrir for my tests) a 6.8% accuracy boost. which i had guessed equates to 10-15 accuracy accounting for margin of error from the limited sample sizes.

admiteddly i have been meaning to go continue testing and get more accurate numbers and also tests on the affects of skill but to be frank its not the top of my priorities list.

i hypothosise and based on Acturus numbers above he would agree that based on the way melee jobs work that 1 skill equates to ~1 accuracy thus in terms of legs i could get ~5acc from oracles or the 10-15 i found from my testing with af. thus based on this giving oracles priority is wrong. now of course avatar accuracy might follow a completely different logic to melee but neither i or anyone can be sure of this at present.

finally in relation to expense i had not meant monetary value. i had meant that to trade for example 5 skill the for af legs enhance avatar accuracy effect was a big price to pay for a little skill.

one of these days i or someone will do more testing on af/skill stats and with bigger samples of results a more accurate number for the accuracy granted by af should be easy to find.

comparing the accuracy boost granted by skill to /attack boosts from relic / karura. using af/nashira would grant about 2% accuraccy bonus from each slot (based solely on the hypothosis of 1skill = 1acc. now while there are no numbers for the attack bonuses granted from karura/relic it wouldn't need to be an overly huge amount to par / beat 2%. and even less of an amount if you let your avatar melee aswell as rage.

so going back to arguement that skill should take priority over direct avatar boosts i find that nothing offers enough skill to compete with these boosts.

back to my af legs vs +skill legs. translating the 6.8% from my findings into accuracy equate to ~13acc. thus for any legs to compete they would need to offer more than 13 skill.

sadly more tests are fairly low on my to do list but its an easy enough test. simply kill x number of mobs without af legs and x number of mobs with af. keeping the rest of your gear the same and making sure all mobs are even match the only thing affecting theaccuracy of your findings will be the value you give x. (which for me was a rather low 20 for each test)

Edited, May 28th 2009 2:17pm by Dzian
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#18 May 28 2009 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
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Based on what I know of other AF and relic stats, and the limited testing that I've been able to read regarding such pieces of gear over the years, I believe AF legs give about +10 Accuracy, relic hands give another +5, and relic feet give +5 Attack. None of this has ever been confirmed, but none of it has been wildly disproven in tests or parses either.
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#19 Jun 02 2009 at 7:48 AM Rating: Good
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jlejeune wrote:
Our biggest obstacle is figuring out how skill correlates to accuracy. It's a non-trivial ratio, all things considered, given most SMNs reports.

Acturus we still need to do that testing we had planned :( I'm still game for this if you'd like to start on it sometime. I'll have to update the version of DirectParse that I modified for our purposes but it shouldn't be too difficult.
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#20 Jun 02 2009 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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Pergatory wrote:
jlejeune wrote:
Our biggest obstacle is figuring out how skill correlates to accuracy. It's a non-trivial ratio, all things considered, given most SMNs reports.

Acturus we still need to do that testing we had planned :( I'm still game for this if you'd like to start on it sometime. I'll have to update the version of DirectParse that I modified for our purposes but it shouldn't be too difficult.


I'm definitely game. I'm out of town this weekend at the beach, but my SMN is still undermeritted (though not for long, MNK is 10 merit points until done, and SMN is next).

We have our format, we just need to spend a week or so fighting mobs.
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#21 Jun 02 2009 at 5:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Nupinu the Eccentric wrote:
I have yet to take the plunge and create a separate macro palette for each avatar, so my macros are a little clumsy at the moment:

- a summon macro for each avatar, with appropriate elemental staff and either carby mitts /nashira gages
- BP delay reduction gear: relic, yyr (alternately, austere)
- BP Ward gear: max Summoning Magic skill
- BP Rage gear: avatar attack/acc
- perpetuation gear: AF+1 boots, nashira gages, etc.

The sequence currently goes something like this:

1. Summon macro
2. Assault the mob
3. Hit BP Delay equipment macro
4. Issue the Blood Pact
5. During the readying anmation, hit the Rage or Ward equipment macro
6. Wait for the BP to land
7. Hit Perpetuation equipment macro if leaving the avatar out; otherwise release.

I generally don't worry about max MP equipment, except when resting to full.
When I redo my macros, I'll put the Rage/Ward equipment into the same macro as the BP, and do a bit more avatar-specific tweaking (e.g. Karura Hachigane)


Yep this is what I do too. Rate up for the concise post.
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Converse MP Calculations
#22 Jun 09 2009 at 8:01 PM Rating: Default
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912 posts
Basically I put 2 avatars on each macro pallet (Garuda with Titan) Ctrl are DMG bps and Alt are buffing and healing bps. I stack the bps as well (Pred Claws with Mountain buster and Earthen Ward with Aerial Armor.)

The first macro is my bp gear macro. The actual bp is looks like this:

/target <bt>
/pet "Predator Claws" <t>
/pet "Mountain Buster <t>
/wait 8
/equp Hands "Nashira Gages"

now you may have to swap in more pieces of gear, depends on how many you swap out for the actual bp. For me all I swap out are the hands.
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83 - WHM 82 - BLM
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72 - WAR DRG BST RDM

I solo for xp on odd job combos. SMN/THF FTW!
Never get too attached to a group and consider them as an online family. You'll just get hurt.

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