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When are you expected to have all summons?Follow

#1 May 23 2009 at 5:11 PM Rating: Decent
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I've been playing just a couple months, but I have really wanted to level SMN.

I unlocked the job, but I let it sit for a bit because I kept being told that I should have some thing other than Carby before I level.

A few weeks ago, I got a pity invite to a Garuda fight since it was a group of friends with an open spot and no one else wanted to go. I was a level 52 COR at the time. I was killed, but they won the fight and I got Garuda as a result.

Since then, I have been unable to score any other avatars. The few times that I have seen friends going to do one, there was already a wait to get into the group. I now have a level 60 COR, but since I need to take a break and level something else for a bit, I was thinking about SMN again.

What is expected out of SMN, and when is it that they are expected to have all summons? Are Fenrir and Diabolos mandatory as well, because Fenrir could take a while, and I haven't gotten much done in CoP yet.
#2 May 23 2009 at 6:15 PM Rating: Default
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I'd try to have all summons but Fenrir and Diabolos by level 25. Fenrir you should try and get by at least level 45. Diabolos I wouldn't worry about too much. I don't know many summoners who use him out side of end game events.
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#3 May 23 2009 at 6:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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You can get all avatars (minus diabolos and fenrir) at lvl20smn from the solo fights. No reason why you technically shouldnt have them by then imo.

Fenrir and Diabolos, I think people are obviously more lenient on. Alot of first time 75s dont get diabolos til well after 75. Fenrir is slightly easier, it isnt hard getting all the whispers, you should have all those down uber early on your smn especially if you have a higher lvl'd job already. Winning the fenrir fight it would probably help if you had a 75 job or really good buddies that can assure you a win.

Either way, most likely if you pt on smn nobody would notice if you were missing avatars as they probably just want you to main heal and nobody would notice even more if you solo'd. But you should definitely have the lvl20 fight avatars for sure.





Edited, May 23rd 2009 10:18pm by Glddaisy
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#4 May 23 2009 at 7:48 PM Rating: Default
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Well it would be great if you had them all by level 20, would be awesome if you had them before you started leveling it period, just to get them out the way. But id honestly say that its best to have at least all except Diablos before level 30 if you can. Especially if you haven't done promy's yet.

As the guys say above, no one will notice, but that's depending on what they ask of you in battle.

As for the level 20 solo fights, (this is just me) I didn't do them, because I went as pld and tanked them all with friends and got mine, so i didn't feel the need of doing the level 20s.

The downside:
I didn't solo my avatars. Beating them solo is the same as beating them in a party you get the same rewards. The only thing that you get more of is pride when you solo'd them and the feeling of accomplishment.

The upside:
Because i didn't beat the level 20 avatars, i can go to the npc and warp straight to the cloisters. Never have to run to an avatar fight as smn again lol.

Edited, May 23rd 2009 8:49pm by Ennoyvl
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#5 May 23 2009 at 7:59 PM Rating: Good
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20 for the main 6, 54 for Fenrir, endgame for Diabolos.
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#6 May 24 2009 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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Celestials by 20, Fenrir and Diabolos by 75. No one has the right to expect any more out of you.
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#7 May 24 2009 at 5:15 PM Rating: Decent
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I still think SE screwed up with making level 1 summons level 70+ fights.

It is sort of like making ballad drop from AV. Sorry Bards, you need to level another job to 75 first, kill AV, then learn the scrolls on your BRD. Hope you do not level past 25 and play gimp!
#8 May 24 2009 at 5:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I still think SE screwed up with making level 1 summons level 70+ fights.
It is sort of like making ballad drop from AV. Sorry Bards, you need to level another job to 75 first, kill AV, then learn the scrolls on your BRD. Hope you do not level past 25 and play gimp!


It probably doesn't help to mention how SE introduced level 20 Carbuncle's mitts that drop from a level 70 something tonberry NM. Or perhaps when SE added the level 40 Dragon Staff to the level 75 BCNM Bahamut V2 which requires clearing both CoP and RoZ.

I don't know why SE has a pention for punishing its players, or pretending that the so called "advanced jobs" require you to already have a lvl 75 when they are accessable at level 30!

Sheer idiocity has nothing on SE.


Edited, May 24th 2009 9:32pm by Teiei
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#9 May 25 2009 at 4:19 AM Rating: Good
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I was lucky. I had every avatar from level 1.

sure it sounds cool and its fun to break them out in the dunes for a bit of showing off or whatever but it's not actually as great as it sounds in terms of using them.

practically speaking even though i had em all i didnt really start using them up until the mid 20s. it was nice letting shiva do the odd blizzard 2 or something in the dunes but just doing that once was often enough to eat nearly half of my mp.

when i got to quifim i starts using fenrirs crescent fang which seemed to be rather effective on the worms/crabs in qufim and its para effect can be really strong, not exactly sure how it works theres rumours but moon phase affecting para potency and all sorts. i think maybe 25 is when the elemental avatars really start to come into play. it's nice but not a huge problem if you dont have fenrir yet.

from a party buff point of view i did use diabolos's noctoshield quite frequently in the 50s and again fenrir. i found noctoshield and epileptic howl where my main wards up until about the early 60s. i found noctoshield + regen was a big form of stress relief in partys where i was the main healer.

coming into the 60s i found my role changing into a more offensive one. with my primary focus being using avatars tier4 nukes to burst skillchains. something which seems forgotten today and when eclipse bite arrives at 65 you can really start to put out the damage. from 65-70 fenrir was pretty much the only avatar to have. epilietic grow/howl and eclipsebite pretty much the way forward up to level 70. where the big pacts spinning dive predator claws all come into play. 70-75 is the most fun part for a smn. all those "loldesperationforhealerinvites" just dont seem to matter anymore.

anyway based on all this. i would say you can live with carby until 20 easily. having the others is nice but you wont use em so much cos of mp.
at 20 then you really want to be looking at having the other 6 (or at a minimum ramuh,titan and ifrit getting the other 3 by about level 25)
then i'd aim for getting fenrir/diabolos at about 50. people will be wanting epilectic howl at 54 so you really should have it. and while noctoshield isnt vital it can really have an impact on the number of cures your throwing out if your the main healer. but it's not required on the same level that fenrir is and even without noctoshield earthen ward can cut a big chunk out of ya cures. together they work really well.

if you dont have diabolos till 75 then its not a huge problem. and not something i imagine youd get turned down a part for. but i'd definately advise obtaining him before you think to much about endgame. his dreamshroud and nether blast really start to shine in many endgame situations.

so 1-20 = carby only, 20 = ramuh titan ifrit 25 = leviathan garuda shiva if not got at 20, 54 = fenrir, 75 = diabolos (49 can be usefull but not essential)


Edited, May 25th 2009 8:22am by Dzian
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#10 May 25 2009 at 4:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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SMN is kinda like BLU in my eyes -- it's not really meant as a "beginner's" job. If you want to be as effective as you can when you level, you will either need to have been "twinked" by your other jobs, or you will need to leech things from others. There's no need to feel bad about having to do the latter, that's just how SE designed the job for some reason.

Diabolos doesn't really matter for anything other than kited endgame mobs; and I don't think many people use Nether Blast because they want to, it's just one of those things you can do to avoid being totally useless in the DD department against a kited or otherwise resistant target. I don't know of any EXP scenario where Diabolos should be called upon.
#11 May 25 2009 at 4:46 AM Rating: Default
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Davrost wrote:
Celestials by 20, Fenrir and Diabolos by 75. No one has the right to expect any more out of you.


They have the right to expect whatever they want but they may be more disappointed the higher they set their expectations. Here's the absolute bare minimum (honestly all by the time you unlock the job is preferable to be done with avatars):

-Lv 20 all celestials
-Lv 50 Fenrir/Diabolos

This is giving extreme leniency, but expecting more than this (more by earlier) will have a significantly higher chance of being disappointed.

The "advanced jobs" are available by Lv 30 so yes you can play them and do them that way but I think they were originally designed so that yes you CAN get everything and do them from Lv 30 but if you have another capped job already, you have an advantage when leveling them over someone who only started at Lv 30. This is a proper trade-off and makes sense to me.

*Edit* I finished the post after running some errands and other posts had been made.

Edited, May 25th 2009 8:50am by Hapernack
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#12 May 25 2009 at 5:31 AM Rating: Good
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Well not mandatory but it's always nice to have Fenrir on Lv21 and later for Lunar Cry. Depending on the moon of course but you can lower evasion of the mob that result in a good accuracy bonus for every melee and on lower level that's a huge boost.

But still most of the time you'll stick with Blinkga, Hastega, Earthen Ward, Levy's curaga &-na until carby's Healing Ruby. All depending on party setup and your duty in it.


Fenrir can be a must (lunar cry, ecliptic howl) but it also relay too much on the phase of the moon. You can be very lucky and party often on full / new moon but you can also spending most of your time with a 50% moon.


last notice on lunar cry, suck against monster that die fast such as colibri. BP timer recast kill this ability.
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#13 May 25 2009 at 7:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Truthfully you're never "expected" to have all the avatars until they have an ability you need to use. The real must-haves in terms of avatar ability I'll list briefly below. If you can organise teams to help you with Fenrir and Diabolos (though, Diabolos is never really considered a must have, even if with Noctoshield), then all the better.

Avatar		Ability			Level 
-------------------------------------------------- 
Ramuh		Thunderspark (*)	Level 19 
Garuda		Aerial Armor		Level 25 
Ifrit		Double Punch (*)	Level 30 
Fenrir		Lunar Roar		Level 32 
Titan		Earthen Ward		Level 46 
Leviathan	Spring Water		Level 47 
Diabolos	Noctoshield		Level 49 
Shiva		Double Slap (*)		Level 50

Items marked with an asterisk (*) are attacks. They are listed here because they are the some of the strongest avatar abilities you will have at the level you receive them. This list is also not exhaustive. I've only listed the first required ability or the first one which strongly benefits Summoner as a job. You might want to have the elemental avatars available before level 10 for the potential magic bursts (Each avatar has a tier 2 spell of their element at 10+), but since magic bursting is both difficult and players rarely skillchain, I've overlooked that when considering their useful abilities.

Edit: Another note that veterans might mention is the exclusion of Shiva's Sleepga (Level 39). This is because the time it takes to summon shiva and use her ability makes it nearly useless for decent crowd control. You would have to have Shiva out already and access to her Wards to make good use of Sleepga. It's accuracy also varies quite wildly at earlier levels.

Edited, May 25th 2009 11:34am by Crystan
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#14 May 26 2009 at 12:12 AM Rating: Decent
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And what about Carbuncle Mitts (or other gear items)?

With the exception of Elemental Staves, is there any gear that is expected to be obtained and owned in your SMN career that a higher level job or a lot of money is required to help with?
#15 May 26 2009 at 3:23 AM Rating: Good
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Sir Crystan wrote:
Truthfully you're never "expected" to have all the avatars until they have an ability you need to use.


All Celestials get Tier II magic at level 10.
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#16 May 26 2009 at 3:25 AM Rating: Good
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Mjrna wrote:
And what about Carbuncle Mitts (or other gear items)?

With the exception of Elemental Staves, is there any gear that is expected to be obtained and owned in your SMN career that a higher level job or a lot of money is required to help with?


Carbuncle Mitts are great at the level 51-52 range where you would start to consider solo'ing with Carbuncle instead of partying.

Beyond that, Summoner gear is largely r/ex with the exception of Austere/Penance gear and Summoning Torque. You'll collect your AF at level 52-60, and start working on your endgame pieces at 70.
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#17 May 26 2009 at 4:25 AM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
20 for the main 6, 54 for Fenrir, endgame for Diabolos.


I endorse this product and/or service.

You can get the main 6 at 20 in Solo battles with a few meds and skill/luck.
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#18 May 26 2009 at 5:02 AM Rating: Good
My Smiley: twocents worth:

- Carbuncle at 1 (duh)
- Ramuh at 20 (Thunderspark rules in Qufim)
- the remaining celestials between 20 and 25
- Fenrir somewhere between 50 and 70
- Diabolos at endgame

You'll also want to pick up at least one elemental spirit by 50 for siphon, and the rest of them by endgame.

Of course, none of this will matter to those who will expect you to have everything at level 1 and think that your most important summon is Cure III. >.>
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#19 May 26 2009 at 8:00 AM Rating: Decent
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You'll also want to pick up at least one elemental spirit by 50 for siphon, and the rest of them by endgame.


you should easily have the majority of these much before level 50. 6 of the 8 scrolls are rediculously cheap (500g-2k each last time i checked) admittedly light n dark are a bit more expensive but theres almost no reason at all to not have 6/8 at level 50. least youll have the right spirit 75% of the time with 6/8

light and dark are more expensive cos theyre usually better at various endgame. for example bumping siphon with light spirit in temenos will out perform any other spirit regardless of day. the same with dark spirit in apollyon and dynamis.
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#20 May 26 2009 at 8:23 AM Rating: Good
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You'll also want to pick up at least one elemental spirit by 50 for siphon, and the rest of them by endgame.


you should easily have the majority of these much before level 50. 6 of the 8 scrolls are rediculously cheap (500g-2k each last time i checked) admittedly light n dark are a bit more expensive but theres almost no reason at all to not have 6/8 at level 50. least youll have the right spirit 75% of the time with 6/8

light and dark are more expensive cos theyre usually better at various endgame. for example bumping siphon with light spirit in temenos will out perform any other spirit regardless of day. the same with dark spirit in apollyon and dynamis.

Heh, I stand corrected. They were a lot more expensive back in the day, so having them all wasn't always viable -- and that was before Siphon.

Thunder Spirit still tends a bit pricey, but anyone should be able to get the remaining five for pocket change.
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#21 May 26 2009 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good
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Celestials by 20, Fenrir and Diabolos by 75. No one has the right to expect any more out of you.


This: if you don't have a 75 yet.
60 COR could maybe get away with being support for a group of SMNs doing Fenrir, but you are so out of luck for Diabolos.
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#22 May 26 2009 at 11:57 PM Rating: Decent
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PriestoftheVoid wrote:
This: if you don't have a 75 yet.
60 COR could maybe get away with being support for a group of SMNs doing Fenrir
Find a good thf/nin, go cor/whm with max MP gear you can have.
Give him/her Rogue & Chaos's Rolls other buff (pro/shel/bar) and support.

This way you can do the 6 celestial avatar (uncap) not that hard (works with other jobs, I'm just a carer thf ;)

For fenrir as Priest mentioned, you can support a group but don't stick with smn burn PT. I've done it with 4 (3 mage & 1 DD, or 1 mage and 3 DD, me always as a thf on tanking duty).
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#23 May 27 2009 at 6:05 AM Rating: Decent
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PriestoftheVoid wrote:
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Celestials by 20, Fenrir and Diabolos by 75. No one has the right to expect any more out of you.


This: if you don't have a 75 yet.
60 COR could maybe get away with being support for a group of SMNs doing Fenrir, but you are so out of luck for Diabolos.


It's not just whether or not you have a 75, but whether or not you have the -right- 75. Setting up a Fenrir run without a SMN or a Diabolos without a BLM is a lot more difficult than having that job. No one runs pickups for those that aren't burns anymore. And convincing friends to do something in this game is like pulling teeth.
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#24 May 29 2009 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
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It's not just whether or not you have a 75, but whether or not you have the -right- 75. Setting up a Fenrir run without a SMN or a Diabolos without a BLM is a lot more difficult than having that job. No one runs pickups for those that aren't burns anymore. And convincing friends to do something in this game is like pulling teeth.


My one successful Diabolos run (I'm like... 1/10) was SAM SAM MNK BLM RDM/DRK x 2. Diabolos without BLMs is very doable, you just need other jobs that can unload craptons of damage at once, and a RDM/DRK.

And the only time I've failed Fenrir was when I tried a SMN PT.

*shrug*

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#25 May 30 2009 at 7:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Not saying it's not possible, just saying it's unnecessarily hard to set up because the game's general population has a burn-only mentality for these things.
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#26 May 30 2009 at 11:06 AM Rating: Decent
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PriestoftheVoid wrote:
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Celestials by 20, Fenrir and Diabolos by 75. No one has the right to expect any more out of you.


This: if you don't have a 75 yet.
60 COR could maybe get away with being support for a group of SMNs doing Fenrir, but you are so out of luck for Diabolos.


My experience is that Diabolos can be beaten with 5 people, so you could always have a level 1 leech with you, just that you also have to have passed a lot of CoP missions.
#27 May 31 2009 at 9:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Considering the fact you can buff pets as a cor, just ask 1 or 2 pup to solo/duo Diabolos for you. I personaly duo'ed him with a pup friend to get my Diabolos earring.
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#28 Jun 04 2009 at 5:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Afk wrote:
Considering the fact you can buff pets as a cor, just ask 1 or 2 pup to solo/duo Diabolos for you. I personaly duo'ed him with a pup friend to get my Diabolos earring.
That's how I got my diabolos's earring. As well as probably 120k in gil rewards, lol.
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#29 Jun 04 2009 at 10:41 PM Rating: Good
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Glddaisy wrote:
You can get all avatars (minus diabolos and fenrir) at lvl20smn from the solo fights. No reason why you technically shouldnt have them by then
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#30 Jun 09 2009 at 9:12 AM Rating: Good
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I'd expect you to have the 6 celestials by 20 and the other two by 75. Get the cheap spirits for Elemental siphon. I'm not too picky.
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