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Is it just me or does playing SMN in a XP pt feel weird...Follow

#1 May 20 2009 at 7:16 PM Rating: Decent
279 posts
Hello i am now level 68 finally and after playing summoner for so long i wish to share some things. First of all i feel weird in a xp pt considering trowing a spell takes ages and you have to wait for 45 seconds to do anything else. I like the fact i can cure but i only get access to cure 3 only and protect 2 shell 2. Most of the times i only find myself using fenrir buff for accuracy and stats boost and completely ignore the other avatars unless i have party with monk, or dual wielding players hastega and even rolling thunder seem nice option but they dont last that long even if i have +25 over the cap. Every single spell cost so much mp its ridiculous considering what you getting in return. Also the 2hr its completely useless since i can do almost same damage with ecliptic bite every 45 seconds.

If i didn't enjoy or have fun with smn which is the most important thign when you playing video game i would of dropped it ages ago and would of been whining about it like all my friends are. Hopefully my view of smn changes after i get lv 70 pacts.

Anyways some people are dumb also i even had people telling me smn is useless for a lot of things and i sure surprised everyone when i soloed bastok 7-2 for a poor guy shouting for hours and people told me i needed alliance to do it.

Anyways smn if very fun when soloing random stuff but if its not a bomb you loose a ton of mp just killing one decent challenge in my opinion its stupid but hell nothing will ever be done about it so i might aswel keep on enjoying the job as it is.
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#2 May 20 2009 at 10:28 PM Rating: Default
18 posts
I don't ask to be smn on alot of events like dynamis etc.

But I in a BST LS where we kill alot of NM, events NM etc and i ask to be on smn evertime because SMN and BST goes really well together, since bst can tank and we just keep DD the mob.
#3 May 21 2009 at 3:51 AM Rating: Good
620 posts
Anyways some people are dumb

#4 May 21 2009 at 4:28 AM Rating: Default
571 posts
summoners are for the most part just gimpy healers, scholar/redmages/whitemages all have their own native magic, higher skills, stronger versions of spells ect.

Summoners are MORE than just the spells they get from their subjobs, I like to think of summoners more as a backup healer/support job than a actual healer.
Summoners should buff AND bring some DDing along with their healing or they really are just gimpy healers, however if you do that, your doing a good job.
Those buffs, and that bit of DDing you can bring that the other healers cant, really does help.

Alot of SMNs Ive met, dont play the job that way, neglecting their DDing abilites or their buffing, after time just come to think of themselfs as gimpy healers.
My advice is to never play SMN that way, always bring your buffs + DDing bloodpacts out.

Sadly this way of thinking will put SMN up against jobs like BRD/COR/DNC ect, which most seem to prefer.

Summoners are great for soloing missions ect, as are BSTs.
Ive seen summoners solo tons of things that would be really hard for most other jobs to do. I know you wrote SMN uses alot of mp to kill even Decent challenges, and thats true, which is why you should get a duoing partner(someone to hold hate while your BP timers up) and just play the role of a buffer/debuffer/DD/healer (or stick with bombs).
#5 May 21 2009 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
166 posts
Experience point parties are not summoner friendly nor are most events anymore.
Summoner's can be out done in almost every way to another job class.
I havent run across anything that summoner could solo that another job couldnt solo faster and better.

Out of the other MMO's I've played I find FFXI to have the worst job class balancing. Ballista is a perfect example. If FFXI was balanced then you could build any job using skills, gear, merits etc.. to beat any other job. It should come down to skill but unfortunately for summoner's no-matter how much skill you have you will never be any good in ballista.

When it comes to player versus enviroment its just more of the same. Summoners are slow, can almost never participate in a fight along side their avatar without risk of dying by an aoe, and almost always have to run away and resummon several times to kill anything.

The idea that a summoner should summon bp and release as a standard practice of playing is full of holes. If thats how a summoner should play then whats the point of avatars having the ability to gain TP or having that TP increase dmg done with magic bloodpacts? Why even bother meriting the Lv.75 bloodpacts if your not going to try an gain TP to make them stronger?

SE throws items into FFXI that are worthless for summoners and its almost like they are insulting the job class by having the items. One such item is Nightmare gloves. I have them just because its a summoner item but they are worthless.

I mainly do fov and solo easy prey stuff because I can atleast hit that stuff with my staff for spirit taker but anything else I would have to just let the avatar do its thing until it died and run away and resummon feeling worthless all the while.

Summoner use to be the sole job class that had auto refresh not that its all that great but no pld has it and theres tons of gear for any other job that wants it. Summoner has elemental siphon but thats not so special either considering other jobs also have ways to gaining MP back. So if you have all the -bp timer gear you can get your wait time down to around 45 seconds...

The time it takes a summoner to pull off say three buffs is probably three times as long as it takes any other support job to do the same thing and do it better.
When doing an event most times the NM dies by the hands of the all mighty melee's and blm's before you can issue a rage bp.

I like the mini tuning fork warping though. Atleast if you havent done the mini fights thats one thing a summoner can do that other job class's cant.

As a summoner you do have good crowed control. If your avatar gathers some links but your able to kill the initial mob you attacked then when you release the others go away considering you didnt get any hate. If you use Shiva to fight and get links you can sleepga and then continue to fihgt the initial mob, pull it away from the others.

I really dont understand why summoner is the way it is or why its shunned by so many. I will admit I dont know much about how to play summonner and I blame the community that made me to main heal in parties. I know all about whm but nothing about what a good summoner is.

I have yet to read a thread that opened my eyes to anything other than disapointment. When other players tell me they are not going to do summoner I cant really disagree with their decission because I know what a failure it is.
I cant blame other players for not wanting a summoner in their groups because I know what a failure it is.
Its pathetic that most players desire to obtain summoner items and avatars with other job class's because either they havent leveld summoner or they cant get groups as a summoner to get something that is specifically for summoner.

I still dont have diabolos because summoner isnt good enough and its my only 75 job. Summoner isnt just out of place in exp parties but is mostly just a poorly put together job class. Either that or after seven years players still dont know how to play the job class. END RANT!
Sylph: San d'Oria: Rank9: Hume: SMN:Lv.75.
[Geocrush][Heavenly Strike][Thunderstorm Lv.5][Meteor Strike][Wind Blade][Grand Fall]
[SummoningMagic Lv.8][DIABOLOS]
#6 May 21 2009 at 3:54 PM Rating: Excellent
11,630 posts
SMN main problem lies at speed.

Take this example, which is not really based on any facts, just general theory.

Melee without any special stuff. 12 TP per hit. 100 damage per hit. BRD buffs it with 15 damage per hit. Takes 1 minute to get 100 TP. Lets say WS do 200 damage more.

So this means the BRD, in a 4 people party, in total added 150*4+200*4 damage, for about 1400 damage per minute.

Compared to a good landed Predator Claws that is fairly even.

Now attach a lot of haste and store TP gear and assume double the attack speed.

Now the BRD bonus is 300*4+400*4 damage, which is 2800 damage. Getting a predator to make up for that damage is impossible. Not to mention that in this case the killing speed was higher so it was probably 2 mobs also, and predator claws only lands on one.

Of course this is just one piece of the puzzle. You also have things like food to consider that makes a big difference in the end.

Pretty much what I'm trying to say is that I bet a SMN parses near that of a unhasted, unfooded melee. Or at least the effect a BRD has on an unhasted and unfooded melee.

Basically remove haste from the game, and remove food from the game, and you have balanced it all out. But of course nobody wants their precious gear and haste to disappear, so more likely we'll have to ask for 2k predator claws, 2k MP pools, 20 second BP timers etc to catch up.
#7 May 22 2009 at 1:15 AM Rating: Decent
207 posts
Well have experienced a nice merit PT yesterday. LS mate ask me to merit I end up smn since we lacked of healing. So party setup was : DRG, DRG, DRK, DRK , BRD (all /nin) and my self.

My regret was to not having /sch sub. With that I could use PredClaw much more often. But Hastega / Cure for the win.

Ok was on G.Lolibri camp but just to say that we have also a room there.
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#8 May 25 2009 at 9:47 PM Rating: Decent
52 posts
Mellowy is on to something.

Basically, the main problem I've always seen with SMN is the utter lack of customization. The blood pact timer sucks and I hate it, but I understand the thought process behind it. On the offensive, SMN is geared toward spike damage. Avatar melee is pathetic, it's in the blood pacts where the damage is. And when you think about it, a naked SMN compared to a naked -any other job- would be the absolute king of DD. There of course lies the problem.

Other jobs can tweak their potential and modify it to their liking. Every damage dealing class has seemingly countless equipment/food available to them to give them the option to increase their damage output. When I first got SMN to 75, the only way to increase the damage/accuracy of my blood pacts was with the af pants, relic hands and relic boots. That's just absurd.

SE is slowly getting better about it, but they're beating around the bush. MAking SMN skill matter is great, but they were crafty enough to prevent it from increasing the dmg of the 70 pacts. They will occasionally add an item that increases avatar attack (unnoticeably most of the time) but is it really enough? Look at how everyone is slobbering over these new augments. Pet MAB +2 makes every good SMN wet their pants. BLMs have had MAB gear available to them all over the place for years.

For whatever reason, SE is very hesitant when it comes to upgrading the actual raw power of blood pacts. It's pretty evident when you consider how gimped the merit pacts were, and how it took them almost 3 years to admit that they screwed it up.

I get that the DMG is hate free, so the timer balances that out. Fine. But let us customize our dmg the way every other job can.
#9 May 26 2009 at 4:37 AM Rating: Decent
11,630 posts
SE is slowly getting better about it, but they're beating around the bush. MAking SMN skill matter is great, but they were crafty enough to prevent it from increasing the dmg of the 70 pacts. They will occasionally add an item that increases avatar attack (unnoticeably most of the time) but is it really enough? Look at how everyone is slobbering over these new augments. Pet MAB +2 makes every good SMN wet their pants. BLMs have had MAB gear available to them all over the place for years.

70 BP hype needs to die away soon. I don't see anything special in delivering 500 damage to the butt of Ixion while the RNG slugs for 2k or the WAR/THF with 300% TP and SA lands 2500 WS.

Oh the horror, my SMN is dealing 1/4 to 1/5 of the other jobs damage, better not boost SMN damage or we break the game.

Interestingly enough my fenrir has 80% accuracy on Ixion, while I've seen carrie has 20% accuracy. How? I don't know, but that is what I've seen first hand. Maybe all my gear actually helps melee accuracy that much. The BST could also have been gimp.
#10 May 26 2009 at 9:21 AM Rating: Decent
52 posts
Mellowy, I can only think that SE justifies it because our damage is hate-free. And I know... it's not a fair trade-off.

I've been thinking of different ways to improve SMN without making it broken. How does this idea sound:

Astral Link: lvl 30 SMN 1 min. duration 5min. recast.
While Astral Link is active, all of the stat bonuses from food/equipment are given to the avatars. Also, all enmity generated by the Summoner applies to the avatar and vice versa.

Basically, this would allow us to use gear like ordinary STR rings to increase our own blood pact power, and the hate for doing so would be tied to us. It could also work in reverse: for example using a cure-bomb that gets pinned on the avatar in main healing situations. What do you think?

#11 May 26 2009 at 4:13 PM Rating: Decent
11,630 posts
Something I've always wondered about is what their test team is up to. We've seen their videos of how they beat AV... and do not even use SMN because apparently it is not good enough for the hardest mob in the game.

You'd think if the test team thinks SMN is useless, they'd actually inform SE and not just pretend the job doesn't exist when they test if they can win battles.

Of course I only have the AV videos to go by, but it wouldn't surprise me if they only used SMN on like 10% of their testing.
#12 Jun 05 2009 at 12:44 AM Rating: Good
2,887 posts
One of the easiest ways to fix SMN would be to get rid of perpetuation cost (BSTs and PUPs don't have that).
Make the summons have a high initial cost
Carby Lv x 2
Six primes Lv x 2.5
Diablos/Fenrir Lv x 3

Also allow the SMN to /heal while the avatar is out (again other pet jobs can do this), the SMN will be unable to give commands to the avatar though.

All the -perp gear in the game, convert that to a minus percentage on summon or BP use (-6 in perp would be -6% in MP cost).

Also give SMN additional tiers of auto-refresh
25 1mp/tick
50 2mp/tick
75 3mp/tick

SMN can now leave their pets out (pets fight for you) while they do party support stuff and even regen MP with time. A SMN would still be a healer most of the time, but they could also deal significant damage over a period of time (Garuda and Fenrir are pretty good if their left out).
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.

Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the @#%^ out of the way instead...
#13 Jun 05 2009 at 1:54 AM Rating: Decent
245 posts
a quickly answer to this issue. I dont understand why SE is so scared with the SMN and let them get more freedom. SMN is the mage job with more MP in the game, but that much is insignificant compared whit the price we have to pay for it.

Call an avatar use MP, have an avatar by your side cost MP, use any of the avatar skill use MP. Is abusive the price we have to pay for try to do our job, at the end the speed for recover that MP wasted for some simple action take so much time.

Others job have incredible ability to compete with SMN and the work and price is less. Most all SMN been asking for years to SE for take off perpetuation or lower BP cost, what I think of this is that any of them will make us more happy and will let SMN to play more freely our job.

SE could leave perpetuation cost as is now (we pay MP for call these mistic god/beast or how they call them to aids us at our side) "but" all our BP will cost 0 MP, these are ability of "Avatar" why should we pay so ridiculous amount of MP?, we have to wait a 1 min for do any other ability, and I think that is so much after all. When "we pay so much MP" for keep avatar out, we could get for "free" their ability, having this sure SMN can leave his avatar out for much and so longer time out using all the ability we wish. like healing every min, or doing damage, or giving buff to PT...

And before start the flame for what I said SE could make weaker SMN if make that change, like if we have an avatar out any other magic we use will cost x2, increase delay of magic cast like do with others new ability added to others job, so if we want to use avatar in that way we cannot abuse of subjobs.

(english learned playing games, dont judge my bad grammar)
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