Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Did we get ninja buffed?Follow

#1 Apr 30 2009 at 7:54 AM Rating: Decent
Avatard
*****
11,630 posts
Quote:
OK doing testing now. Wind Blade level 1 with no MaB merits.

0% TP, bees outside jeuno: 653 dmg.
60%: 941
127%: 1092
182%: 1211
240%: 1343
300%: 1478


This is a quote from just after update. We established the new level 1 BPs did about 600-650 damage at 0% TP.

Yesterday during KB I used my level 1 BP and did 720 damage. Of course I was wearing 7 MAB from the new body, but again look at this past quote.

Quote:
base dmg w/out redingote = X

base dmg w/ redingote = X * ~1.05 (don't ask me why it's .05 and not .07 cause i'm not sure why)


So the expected damage in my gear should have been 650*1.05 = 685ish.

So what happened here? I have a few silly ideas:

1) Base damage was yet again scaled up from 650 to like 700 (easy to test by not wearing MAB body I guess, just haven't gotten around to)
2) Suddenly "weak against element X" actually give damage bonus (probably easy to test too, but I doubt SE changed the fundamentals of elemental resists last maintenance)
3) MAB calculation was changed to strict +10 damage per MAB (this should be easy to test along with 1))


Just throwing this out to hear if anyone else experienced it.
#2 Apr 30 2009 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
****
7,451 posts
Mellowy wrote:
Quote:
OK doing testing now. Wind Blade level 1 with no MaB merits.

0% TP, bees outside jeuno: 653 dmg.
60%: 941
127%: 1092
182%: 1211
240%: 1343
300%: 1478


This is a quote from just after update. We established the new level 1 BPs did about 600-650 damage at 0% TP.

Yesterday during KB I used my level 1 BP and did 720 damage. Of course I was wearing 7 MAB from the new body, but again look at this past quote.


Enilanerda's testing on EP Spiders outside of Whitegate suggested that unresisted level 1 Merit BP base damage was 733.

Quote:
base dmg w/out redingote = X

[quote]base dmg w/ redingote = X * ~1.05 (don't ask me why it's .05 and not .07 cause i'm not sure why)

Celestial Avatars have MAB+32 by default. A 7% increase on top of MAB+32 is an effective 5% increase. I'm still learning how that is exactly myself, but MAB has diminishing returns.
____________________________
Before you ask a stupid crafting question, read this.
milich wrote:
Quote:
Everytime Arcturus sees this, he starts to die inside.......I know it D:
actually, i think every time Acturus is called Arcturus he dies inside.


Now THIS is PvP!

MNK ~ SMN ~ SCH
#3 Apr 30 2009 at 9:01 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
164 posts
As Enilanerda requested it not be copied here, I won't. But as Acturus pointed out, his numbers on KI are quite different from those you posted here. You should go check it out.

Acturus wrote:
Celestial Avatars have MAB+32 by default. A 7% increase on top of MAB+32 is an effective 5% increase. I'm still learning how that is exactly myself, but MAB has diminishing returns.


Actually MAB+7 from a base MAB of 32 is a 5.3% increase. It would require a base of 40 MAB for a 5% increase. They're close enough to where a casual observer might write it off as 5%, though. Still, in all cases, MAB+7 is a 7% increase to the base.

Edited, Apr 30th 2009 1:02pm by Ildon
#4 May 01 2009 at 2:18 AM Rating: Decent
Avatard
*****
11,630 posts
Kind of scary to hear it was 733 from the start (sure he isn't cheating with MAB merits?). I mean, it would actually mean I've had a constant 10% or so resist half the month on anything. I hope this means SE fixed elemental resistance to our favor so I can see more 733s in the future. I do have 17 Macc after all.

But I really don't get why or how anyone figures out there is 32 base MAB. Is it to make the MAB bonus math add up? Because I can't see a single reason for SE to program: Base damage 600 + 32 MAB + flying squirrels = total damage.

Seems like I have a new question I want to be asked at FAN FEST. "Why do Avatars have natural MAB 32 and not just 0?"

Suspecting a "They do? We have no idea!" reply though.
#5 May 01 2009 at 7:07 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,257 posts
Interesting to see that Avatars have MAB+32. It makes sense if you consider that all mobs in the game have a job. MAB+32 would seem to indicate that SMN avatars are BLMs in regards to traits and stat growth (and they have MP, since I've seen my Avatars get aspired).
____________________________
Name: Mouser Tsunderecat
Server: Migardsormr Quetzalcoatl
LS: Eternalbond
99s: DRG BLU DNC WAR PLD SMN RDM DRK THF WHM BLM RUN RNG NIN
#6 May 01 2009 at 7:28 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
164 posts
Mellowy wrote:
Kind of scary to hear it was 733 from the start (sure he isn't cheating with MAB merits?). I mean, it would actually mean I've had a constant 10% or so resist half the month on anything. I hope this means SE fixed elemental resistance to our favor so I can see more 733s in the future. I do have 17 Macc after all.

But I really don't get why or how anyone figures out there is 32 base MAB. Is it to make the MAB bonus math add up? Because I can't see a single reason for SE to program: Base damage 600 + 32 MAB + flying squirrels = total damage.

Seems like I have a new question I want to be asked at FAN FEST. "Why do Avatars have natural MAB 32 and not just 0?"

Suspecting a "They do? We have no idea!" reply though.


The most damage you could do during a resist is 50%. There's no such thing as being resisted for 10% of your damage. What were you fighting? 733 damage doesn't mean it's going to do 733 to everything. It means it was doing 733 to DC spiders outside of Aht Urhgan. If you were fighting IT mobs, somewhere close to 600 to 650 are more normal, depending on what you were fighting. Target INT and MDB have to be taken into account.

And yes, pretty much the only way to figure out base MAB, as far as I know, is to add more MAB and compare. Adding INT could maybe be used too, but it'd be more difficult maybe, and we can't add INT to our avatars, at least not generally.

Why do avatars have a natural MAB? Why do BLMs have it? Why not just make BLM spells do a higher natural damage?

I'm pretty sure that if they indeed do have a MAB of 32, MAB traits come at the same levels as a BLM, so our avatars are probably indeed BLMs. This means that their magic attack would progress to higher damage at levels 10, 30, 50, and 70, for 20, 24, 28, and 32 MAB, respectively. Upon reaching the required level, any previous spells you had will suddenly make a little jump in damage.

If Carbuncle doesn't have MAB, then I suspect that he may be a WHM. That is purely a guess, but I think it would make sense. He does have Auto Regen, after all. Does he perhaps take less magic damage than the other avatars?
#7 May 01 2009 at 7:50 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
776 posts
Acturus wrote:
Celestial Avatars have MAB+32 by default.


When did this happen and why, after nearly 5 years of playing SMN, is this the first that I've heard of it?

Also, some documentation/testing/proof would be nice.
____________________________
Character Name: Davrost
Race: Tarutaru
Server: Gilgamesh
Current Job: BLU
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/poster.html?user=391454#FFXI_Characters
Relic: SMN - 6/6, WAR - 6/6, BST - 5/5, BLM - 6/6, PLD: 2/5, MNK - 1/5, THF - 1/5, DNC - 6/6, BLU - 6/6, RDM - 1/5, SCH - 1/5, DRK - 2/5, WHM - 1/5
Notable Crafts: WW: 73.1+2, AL: 60.0, CO: 60.0, LC: 60.0+1, CC: 54.3+1
#8 May 01 2009 at 3:10 PM Rating: Decent
Avatard
*****
11,630 posts
Quote:
The most damage you could do during a resist is 50%. There's no such thing as being resisted for 10% of your damage.


I'm pretty sure spells land for about 100%, 90%, 75%, 50%, 25%, 10%, 0% depending on resist. Because my BPs do land for stuff like 730, 680, 350, 80 and such. Rough numbers of course, but that is what I can see depending on resist rates.

****, I've had AM tornado land for 80 damage and I'm pretty sure that is a straight 10% of the max possible.

Of course INT and MDB plays a party, but that is what I lump in under resist. Unless a golem has so high MDB and INT that it can remove 90% of a nukes damage (but not always, since I can also nuke it for 600ish).

Edited, May 2nd 2009 1:12am by Mellowy
#9 May 01 2009 at 3:29 PM Rating: Default
Mellowy wrote:
Quote:
The most damage you could do during a resist is 50%. There's no such thing as being resisted for 10% of your damage.


I'm pretty sure spells land for about 100%, 90%, 75%, 50%, 25%, 10%, 0% depending on resist. Because my BPs do land for stuff like 730, 680, 350, 80 and such. Rough numbers of course, but that is what I can see depending on resist rates.

****, I've had AM tornado land for 80 damage and I'm pretty sure that is a straight 10% of the max possible.

Of course INT and MDB plays a party, but that is what I lump in under resist. Unless a golem has so high MDB and INT that it can remove 90% of a nukes damage (but not always, since I can also nuke it for 600ish).



Bout the only thing your sure of is that you dont know. This is obvious to most of us long time posters in the smn forums. Long ago some of the wiser smn posters here did plenty of checking on what affected damage on mobs.
The formula that calculates damage has randomize in it as do certain mobs for being buffed.
Then consider your Smn skill, Int, Gear, Elemant of the day, Maybe even time of the day. Then your merits themselves. I'm certain there is quite a few more variables mixed into the equasion. This is why using the same BP on the same mob gives us different damage each time.
____________________________
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v619/ImGatomon/Request.jpg

. “Power even if it is raw uncontrolled potential is just as dangerous as a trained assassin. It is unpredictable and deadly if your are not prepared." ~Gatomon From the story A Fox Among Wolves.
#10 May 01 2009 at 3:41 PM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,231 posts
If you do 90% or 75% of your normal magical damage, the reason is probably day/weather effects working against you. But that's not a resist. As stated, if you got a resist, it has to do 1/2, 1/4, or 1/8 normal damage.
#11 May 02 2009 at 3:37 AM Rating: Default
Avatard
*****
11,630 posts
Fynlar wrote:
If you do 90% or 75% of your normal magical damage, the reason is probably day/weather effects working against you. But that's not a resist. As stated, if you got a resist, it has to do 1/2, 1/4, or 1/8 normal damage.


Day? Are you certain? I didn't know thunders day gave natural bonus to BLMs or lights day boosted cures. Thought it was only weather.

And speaking of resists. Is it 1/2 damage THEN removed INT and MDB, or INT and MDB calculations first, then 1/2 of that?
#12 May 02 2009 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
947 posts
Quote:
Day? Are you certain? I didn't know thunders day gave natural bonus to BLMs or lights day boosted cures. Thought it was only weather.


Day: 10%

Weather: 10% single weather effect
25% double weather effect

Light's day in limbus (with double light weather) with Korin (light) Obi on WHM makes me happy =)
#13 May 02 2009 at 2:42 PM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,231 posts
Quote:
And speaking of resists. Is it 1/2 damage THEN removed INT and MDB, or INT and MDB calculations first, then 1/2 of that?


Resist adjustments are calculated after everything else.

If you'd do 800 damage naked and you equip enough stuff to do 900 damage instead, a 1/2 resist will make you do 450.
#14 May 02 2009 at 4:38 PM Rating: Decent
Avatard
*****
11,630 posts
I still think there is something mysterious going on.

Just an hour ago or so I nuked earth elemental (earth weather, darks day) with my 75 BP. About 1111 damage, followed by next 963 or so. Stoneskin? Only explanation I can think of since you are saying neither weather nor day should have effected my damage, and earth elementals do not cast shell. (Observe this was in a party so no TP on avatar in either case)

I need to pay a little more attention since even this time there was a "maybe" factor. But I really get the feeling nukes on the same mob, in the same situation, can vary by about 100 damage.

I had the same thing on Iriz ima or whatever the big hunk is called. But that guy might have a resist TP move? At least it could absorb things, which could be shell (though it is a nice shell that absorbs 200 damage. I should ask for shell more often if they have like 20% magic damage reduction)

Not saying any of you are wrong, just wondering why I get so odd values.
#15 May 02 2009 at 11:14 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
164 posts
Most likely Stoneskin with the Earth Elemental.

On Iriz Ima, it's very likely it did absorb Shell. And yes, Shell IV does reduce magic damage by 20%ish (21.9%), while Shell V is 24.2%.
#16 May 03 2009 at 9:54 PM Rating: Default
Mellowy wrote:
I still think there is something mysterious going on.

Just an hour ago or so I nuked earth elemental (earth weather, darks day) with my 75 BP. About 1111 damage, followed by next 963 or so. Stoneskin? Only explanation I can think of since you are saying neither weather nor day should have effected my damage, and earth elementals do not cast shell. (Observe this was in a party so no TP on avatar in either case)

I need to pay a little more attention since even this time there was a "maybe" factor. But I really get the feeling nukes on the same mob, in the same situation, can vary by about 100 damage.

I had the same thing on Iriz ima or whatever the big hunk is called. But that guy might have a resist TP move? At least it could absorb things, which could be shell (though it is a nice shell that absorbs 200 damage. I should ask for shell more often if they have like 20% magic damage reduction)

Not saying any of you are wrong, just wondering why I get so odd values.


I think you forgot about the Mob adjustments they did a while back. It's possible for mobs (Mostly NM"s ) to develop a resistance to nukes. Also, I think you may need to check your Int when using avatar nukes. I know that it helps damage.
____________________________
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v619/ImGatomon/Request.jpg

. “Power even if it is raw uncontrolled potential is just as dangerous as a trained assassin. It is unpredictable and deadly if your are not prepared." ~Gatomon From the story A Fox Among Wolves.
#17 May 04 2009 at 5:06 AM Rating: Excellent
****
7,451 posts
Davrost wrote:
Acturus wrote:
Celestial Avatars have MAB+32 by default.


When did this happen and why, after nearly 5 years of playing SMN, is this the first that I've heard of it?

Also, some documentation/testing/proof would be nice.


It's on this forum somewhere. Kaeko stopped by to ask some questions about something, took up all of our notes on the Tier II pacts (before Enil got muted), and it was his conclusion that Celestial avatars have MAB+32.

To be quite honest, I've never seen the thread myself, but I have yet to see Kaeko make a statement like that and be completely wrong.
____________________________
Before you ask a stupid crafting question, read this.
milich wrote:
Quote:
Everytime Arcturus sees this, he starts to die inside.......I know it D:
actually, i think every time Acturus is called Arcturus he dies inside.


Now THIS is PvP!

MNK ~ SMN ~ SCH
#18 May 04 2009 at 7:22 AM Rating: Excellent
***
3,059 posts
Acturus wrote:
It's on this forum somewhere. Kaeko stopped by to ask some questions about something, took up all of our notes on the Tier II pacts (before Enil got muted), and it was his conclusion that Celestial avatars have MAB+32.
It supports the 5% increase people see for the Pet: MAB+7. Mostly an immediate effect support Avatar MAB traits non-math people can see for themselves.
____________________________
"And I'm prepared to passionately argue this point until nothing makes sense anymore. If that doesn't work, then the hours upon hours of whining will." -Red Mage Statscowski

Saggo of Garuda Lakshmi
#19 May 04 2009 at 8:26 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
776 posts
That is the absolute strangest thing. Makes sense, I suppose, given that +MAB for avatars has reported diminishing returns on celestials (no merits/gear yet for me, so going on others' data). It just amazes me how things randomly pop up years into the game that were somehow overlooked. Hard to take some of them at face value, though. Thanks.
____________________________
Character Name: Davrost
Race: Tarutaru
Server: Gilgamesh
Current Job: BLU
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/poster.html?user=391454#FFXI_Characters
Relic: SMN - 6/6, WAR - 6/6, BST - 5/5, BLM - 6/6, PLD: 2/5, MNK - 1/5, THF - 1/5, DNC - 6/6, BLU - 6/6, RDM - 1/5, SCH - 1/5, DRK - 2/5, WHM - 1/5
Notable Crafts: WW: 73.1+2, AL: 60.0, CO: 60.0, LC: 60.0+1, CC: 54.3+1
#20 May 04 2009 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
****
7,451 posts
Davrost wrote:
That is the absolute strangest thing. Makes sense, I suppose, given that +MAB for avatars has reported diminishing returns on celestials (no merits/gear yet for me, so going on others' data). It just amazes me how things randomly pop up years into the game that were somehow overlooked. Hard to take some of them at face value, though. Thanks.


Another thing I found interesting (again, based on regurgitating things I've read from Kaeko) is that BLM elemental potency merits (2% MAB effect, but an effective 1.5% increase) are the same as Avatar Magical Attack merits on the Celestials.
____________________________
Before you ask a stupid crafting question, read this.
milich wrote:
Quote:
Everytime Arcturus sees this, he starts to die inside.......I know it D:
actually, i think every time Acturus is called Arcturus he dies inside.


Now THIS is PvP!

MNK ~ SMN ~ SCH
#21 May 04 2009 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
*
234 posts
Mistress Tailmon wrote:
The formula that calculates damage has randomize in it as do certain mobs for being buffed.


This is an assumption, not a fact. (We do not know the algorithms SE uses, therefor all we can do is attempt to reverse engineer the equation given the inputs and outputs, which is not an easy task by any means)

Its Highly unlikely that my BP's land for such consistent numbers and still have this statement be true. I do see variations in my damage, however even the variations have consistency, steering me towards the theory that the resists for our pacts differ from that of a BLM. The assumption that the calculations for BLM Nukes and Avatar nukes are done by the same equation is a guess at best.

The problem for the lack of data here to push any theory into a hypothesis is that everyone here has different play styles and we all fight different monsters.

For a random value to occur in the damage algorithm, the damage 'should' be all over the board and play host to laws of probability. There's no question in my mind that there is a random value in the algorithm that rolls to see what your resist will be if any, but this calculation would be totally separate of any damage calculation.

Quote:
This is why using the same BP on the same mob gives us different damage each time.


This statement doesn't hold water in my observations. If you want to recreate my observations take your summoner out to the BLM Pudding Camp and team up with a BLM or another SMN so your not kiting alone (in an area where JA's will get you killed) and use a Merit BP over and over and over. If the Day/Weather/BP doesn't change, You will see what I see... Consistency
#22 May 04 2009 at 11:22 AM Rating: Excellent
****
7,451 posts
FrejaFHG wrote:
Mistress Tailmon wrote:
The formula that calculates damage has randomize in it as do certain mobs for being buffed.


This is an assumption, not a fact. (We do not know the algorithms SE uses, therefor all we can do is attempt to reverse engineer the equation given the inputs and outputs, which is not an easy task by any means)

Its Highly unlikely that my BP's land for such consistent numbers and still have this statement be true. I do see variations in my damage, however even the variations have consistency, steering me towards the theory that the resists for our pacts differ from that of a BLM. The assumption that the calculations for BLM Nukes and Avatar nukes are done by the same equation is a guess at best.


Empyrically speaking, the only place for a random number generator in a nuking equation would be to calculate which resist level is used, since resists on elemental nukes happen on 1/8ths, and even this is assuming that the merit pacts are built on a platform similar to Elemental nukes, which is plausible given the predictable effect of MAB.
____________________________
Before you ask a stupid crafting question, read this.
milich wrote:
Quote:
Everytime Arcturus sees this, he starts to die inside.......I know it D:
actually, i think every time Acturus is called Arcturus he dies inside.


Now THIS is PvP!

MNK ~ SMN ~ SCH
#23 May 06 2009 at 12:49 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
697 posts
Mistress Tailmon wrote:
Also, I think you may need to check your Int when using avatar nukes. I know that it helps damage.


Enilanerda wrote:
...and if you get a chance make sure to slap the sh*t out of Mistress Tailmon and tell her she's STILL a moron.

Int on the Smn does not help avatar damage.
Int on the avatar, however, does.
This is only possible with Carby and Fenrir, (excluding the test I mentioned earlier) and of the two only carby has a magical based attack.


Don't kill the messenger. =) Just passing along the info and preventing old myths from spreading.

Edited, May 6th 2009 1:52am by Gerkin
____________________________
75 RDM BLM SCH SAM PUP
#24 May 06 2009 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
****
4,213 posts
Again, MAB does not have diminishing returns. Ever.

The reason it appears that way is because you aren't accounting for hidden MAB which is reported to be between 32-40. This causes a boost that appears initially to be less than 1% per MAB, and can mislead one to believe it has diminishing returns, but this is not the case.

If MAB had diminishing returns, every point would give you less damage increase than the previous point. It does not. It doesn't matter how many avatar magic attack merits or pet:mab+ gear you have, if you add one more MAB to your pet it will add exactly the same damage to a given BP (1% of base damage per MAB).

EDIT:
Note that there may be slight inconsistencies in numbers which is caused by the divisors that FFXI uses. It doesn't track things in exact x/100 measurements, but x/256, x/512, and x/1024 depending on the specific situation. So for example, an item that boosts magic attack by "5" might actually boost it by 14/256 or 5.47%, or it might actually boost by 12/256 or 4.69%. This can cause discrepancy from what you expect vs. what you see, but I assure you that it's a linear increase.

Edited, May 6th 2009 9:35am by Pergatory
____________________________
Pergatory (Asura, Kupo LS) WHM99 ~ SMN99 ~ DRK99
"If you want to know me, look inside your heart." -Lao Tzu
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 8 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (8)