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Computer for future gaming.Follow

#1 Mar 09 2011 at 12:33 PM Rating: Decent
I have read the sticky, but i must confess that i do not know squat about computers, so i came here hoping to get some help. The computer that i am considering buying looks like this:
603160 - Antec Dark Fleet DF-30 Midi Tower Black Fans: 2x 120mm Front, 1x 140mm Top, 1x 120mm Rear, Blue LEDs, Window
347165 - Chieftec Super Series 650W PSU, ATX 12V V2.3, 80 Plus, Modular, 1x 6pin+1x 6+2pin PCIe, 6x SATA, 140mm Fan
604498 - Intel Core™ i5 Quad Processor i5-760 Quad Core, 2.80Ghz, Socket 1156, 8MB, 95W, Boxed w/fan
578918 - Kingston ValueR. DDR3 1333MHz 8GB, CL9 Kit w/2x ValueRAM 4GB DDR3
594807 - ASUS P7P55D-E LX, Socket-1156 ATX, P55, DDR3, 1xPCIe(2.0)x16, GbLAN, SATA 6Gb/s, USB 3.0
622613 - ZOTAC GeForce GTX 560Ti 1GB PhysX CUDA PCI-Express 2.0, GDDR5, 2xDVI, mini-HDMI, 820MHz, w/Assasin's Creed Brotherhood
618054 - WD Caviar® Blue™ 1TB 3,5", SATA 6 Gb/s, 32MB Cache, Dual Processor, 7200RPM
Black DVD±RW burner

http://www.komplett.dk/k/ki.aspx?sku=488612

Will i be able to play wow with lots of add-ons with a high fps, even in situations where AOE is everywhere? And also, i would really love to be able to play The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim, coming out by the end of this year, again with loads of mods. So my question is, is this a good buy and will it stisfy my gaming needs? It costs app. 7000 danish kroner (DKK), which is app. $1300.
#2 Mar 09 2011 at 3:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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The main issue I'd point out with it is that it's using a previous generation motherboard and CPU. The i5 760 (released in summer 2010) supplanted the 750 (released in fall 2009) - little faster for about the same price. Either represented fabulous value at around the $190-200 price point, and even more so when overclocked, which they did quite well. Thing is, back in January, the current generation of Intel's consumer CPUs launched. You now have the i5 2400, 2500, and 2500K occupying that price segment. For the enthusiast, the 2500K is the preferred model as it has an unlocked multiplier, meaning you're a lot freer to overclock it. It's not that much more expensive either (around $35 or so more than the 2400, with the 2500 falling in between the two).

The newer CPUs also have a new socket (LGA 1155), and new chipset to go along with it, meaning all new motherboards.

Overall, the machine is using solid, brand-name components throughout. You would likely save about $200 if you bought the exact same parts yourself and put them together (in the US at least)...but if you're not comfortable doing that, then there are far worse price premiums out there.

Even so, the issue of why they're putting in previous generation stuff is there when the current generation stuff is more performance for effectively the same price. IE, I usually buy from Newegg.com - an i5 760 is still $209 there. An i5 2500K is about $20 more. The motherboard listed is about $150, and you can get an 1155 board for about the same.

It's not all that uncommon for OEMs to continue marketing old tech - gotta clear out the old inventory somehow. However, if you're trying to get the most for your money, I'd say to keep looking.


As an aside, if you're mainly looking to play games well, you'll want to make sure you get a solid video card setup in whatever you do buy. Often that's a bigger factor than the particular CPU you have. Exactly what you "need" can also depend on your screen size. What's sufficient for your typical 22" monitor will likely not see great results trying to drive a 30" panel, that sort of thing. That said, the GTX 560TI in the system you linked is a solid performer for its price class, though AMD's HD6950 is also a strong contender (both are ~$250 cards). Provided you're using a 1920x1200 or smaller resolution, it should net you good performance for most anything on the shelf now, or in the forseeable future.
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#3 Mar 09 2011 at 11:37 PM Rating: Decent
The problem with buying in the US is that getting it to Denmark is pretty expensive, and i risk getting taxed on it, meaning that in the end, i will have payed the price that i would have payed anyway+transport. US->Denmark also makes for some difficult insurance stuff. Anyways, this is also something that i will have to put together myself, but it is a kind of package-deal from the store. If you have the time and do not mind, here is the link to the fully customisable comoputers with screens and keyboards and mice.

http://www.komplett.dk/k/config.aspx?ConfigSystemId=10452

I do not really want to go too much above 10000 DKK, because that is already $2000. But if you could figure out a good setup and perhaps lock the choices and post a link (if possible), then that would be great. But only if you are willing to, you would probably have to be pretty patient to put together a gaming system for somebody else... for free.

And thank you for the help on the other one, but i have a question on it. When will i feel the fact that it is an older system? When playing the new games or willl i notice that it does not run as fast as it could?
#4 Mar 10 2011 at 9:15 AM Rating: Good
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7,129 posts
Quote:
The problem with buying in the US is that getting it to Denmark is pretty expensive, and i risk getting taxed on it, meaning that in the end, i will have payed the price that i would have payed anyway+transport. US->Denmark also makes for some difficult insurance stuff.


Ah, I didn't so much mean that you should buy from the US. Just that it's the only market that I'm familiar with, and I know how much a machine like this would generally cost me to build. So my impression of the pricing and all is based on that. Likewise, I haven't got the slightest clue about how the retailer you're looking at compares to other buying options available to you.

Quote:
Anyways, this is also something that i will have to put together myself, but it is a kind of package-deal from the store.


Yeah, clicking the translate button, I see that now. Something extra to keep in mind there is that you'd also need a legit copy of Windows to accurately compare pricing to their prebuilt systems, since the bundle doesn't include it, or other accessories. Still, it's just a bundle, so you can always piece together your own.

Looking around that site:

- Antec Dark Fleet is 879 DKK. You could certainly go cheaper, but that's what the bundle has.
- The Chieftec Super series 650W PSU they have spec'ed is 648 DKK
- The 8GB RAM kit spec'ed is 689 DKK
- The ZOTAC GTX560TI is 1995 DKK
- 1TB WD Caviar Blue is 429 DKK
- They have at least a couple DVD burners for 195 DKK

So 4835 DKK for the stuff other than the CPU/motherboard. IMO, you could go with a cheaper case, like the HAF 912 or 922. You could also get a 4GB RAM kit to start with - easy enough to add more later if you need it, and for the time being, 4GB is fine for gaming.

Their pricing on an i5 2500K is 1495 DKK (the same exact price they have the i5 760 for), and the motherboard they're offering in their prebuilt systems (MSI P67A-GD65) is 1229 DKK (though it's apparently not in stock). You wind up with 7559 DKK to swap to a Sandy Bridge setup with the same motherboard they're using.
Notably though, the motherboard in the bundle you linked to does not support multiple graphics cards (only has one PCIe x16 slot). The MSI board mentioned does, which could justify the extra expense if you were considering adding a second card down the line. Conversely, you could also buy a cheaper P67 motherboard if you don't care about that.

It does look like they're giving a discount for buying the bundle. Otherwise the bottom line would come down to motherboard cost.

If you built that, and you planned to overclock, then you'd also want a better CPU cooler.


Quote:
And thank you for the help on the other one, but i have a question on it. When will i feel the fact that it is an older system? When playing the new games or willl i notice that it does not run as fast as it could?


It's hard to say. The video card is more recent (came out around the end of January), but the rest of the machine would have been something an enthusiast might have build as recently as around last Christmas, if they weren't holding out for Sandy Bridge. It's not like it's vastly out of date. The main thing, again, is that the new/better CPU is the same price.

Gaming is usually a harder thing to narrow down, given how heavily most games lean on the GPU versus the CPU. Here is a roundup of gaming tests as part of a Sandy Bridge review (an i5 760 will be a hair better than a 750).
Keep in mind too that these are all stock, and most of the CPUs listed can be easily overclocked to significantly higher speeds.

As you can see, some games wind up being more GPU limited (like Crysis Warhead in those benchmarks), and most anything recent will result in similar performance with a given card. The CPU can push all the data it wants to the card, but the card can only do so much.
Others are more CPU-limited - the GPU can handle them relatively easily, so it comes down more to how fast the CPU can push data through. You can see that more in the WoW benchmarks.

IMO, you're not really going to see a point where something is playable on a 2500K, but not on a 760. But, as mentioned, for the same money, there's really no reason not to get the faster chip.


Something to be aware of, if you are not already, is that Intel's new chipset did have a problem discovered with it (the SATA controller degrades over time). OEMs are doing swaps, but waiting a month or so and checking around to make sure fixed boards are out might be a good idea.
This also may be why the P67 board mentioned above isn't in stock, and why they're not offering the newer CPUs in their bundles.
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#5 Mar 10 2011 at 10:04 AM Rating: Decent
Extra netcard: Intel Gigabit CT Desktop Adapter
DVD burner
Graphics: Gainward Bliss 8800 GT 1024MB Gold Series

Chieftec Smart Series, SH-01, Black
PSU: 600W Corsair CX
OS: Windows 7 Ultimate Retail UK

For 9000 DKK

The thing that worries me the most here is the graphics card, but as i said, WoW and TESV: Skryrim will be my most played games on the copmputer, perhaps Diablo 3 if it turns out to be a good game. I know that WoW is memory-intense rather than graphically challenging, but a stable graphics card would not hurt.

Edited, Mar 10th 2011 11:08am by Bullet2chokeupon
#6 Mar 10 2011 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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7,129 posts
You shouldn't need an additional network card for a regular desktop, unless you have a particular use in mind?

An 8800 GT is a very outdated card. Cheap, certainly, and still viable for older games...but I wouldn't buy one intending on playing even moderately demanding upcoming games. If your focus is gaming, I would try to fit at least the tier card that you were looking at in (GTX 560 or a Radeon HD6950).

If you may put in a second GPU down the line, something a little bigger than a 600W PSU might be a good idea.


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#7 Mar 10 2011 at 10:58 AM Rating: Decent
Oops, did not get the entire setup:

ASUS P6X58D Premium (X58,2xGLAN/RAID/SATA6/USB3
CPU:Intel Core i7, 950 (3,06 GHz)
Ram: 12 GB Kingston DDR3, 1333 MHz (3x4)
Ekstra netkort: Intel Gigabit CT Desktop Adapter
DVD brænder
Grafik: Gainward Bliss 8800 GT 1024MB Gold Series
Harddiske:
OCZ RevoDrive SSD 120 GB (540/480 MB/s)
Samsung Spinpoint F1 1TB 7.200 RPM
Kabinet: Chieftec Smart Series, SH-01, sort
PSU: 600W Corsair CX
OS: Windows 7 Ultimate Retail UK

But okay, the other one was better, thanks foe clearing that up. Have you looked at the link i wrote earlier:

http://www.komplett.dk/k/config.aspx?ConfigSystemId=10452

Here there is a bit more freedom in making the setup, but for a newcomer, choices are difficult.
#8 Mar 10 2011 at 11:41 AM Rating: Good
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7,129 posts
Ah, okay. That's actually yet another platform (X58 chipset, socket 1366), which is technically Intel's higher end/enthusiast type platform. Has more PCIe lanes, triple channel memory, that sort of thing. In actual practice, particularly if you only have one video card, the performance difference isn't that much, despite the higher cost of the platform.

The platform is expected to be replaced this fall with a new socket/chipset.

There are other parts there that are driving the cost up - a 120GB SSD for example.

The overall configuration would be more of a workstation than a gaming rig.



Quote:
Have you looked at the link i wrote earlier:

http://www.komplett.dk/k/config.aspx?ConfigSystemId=10452

Here there is a bit more freedom in making the setup, but for a newcomer, choices are difficult.


Keeping your budget in mind...

- Could change the case to a cheaper variant. They have the basic CM690 II for about 100 DKK less, or even an Antec 300 for about 200 less. A consideration is that the default case there includes an extra fan, so if you'd wind up adding that later it'll offset the initial savings.

- You probably want to bump it up to a better PSU. The 650W Corsair would be fine if you don't plan to add a second video card. If you do, the 750W should like be fine unless you jump up to high end cards.

- I would go with the i5 2500K, but if you're confident you'll never overclock you could save a little by going with the 2400 or 2500.

- The default 4GB of RAM is fine to start with.

- Could change GPU to the GTX560, the default 6870 is slightly lower performance, but still decent (I have one).

- The default 1TB WD Black seems to have a lot more of a price jump than normal for the model (usually only a little more than a Blue). Maybe it's a mirrored setup or something? Regardless, you can get a WD Blue or a Seagate 1TB for a fair bit less, or even go with a 500GB to save a bit more. You can always add more drives later. Using an SSD or performance drive for system/apps is preferable, but can add a fair bit to the cost (and you can always do it later). Avoid the WD Green drives as system drives, otherwise just go with what fits your budget.

- Remove the KB/mouse unless you specifically want one that they're offering and can't just go buy it for less.

- Remove the speakers unless, again, you actually want one of their options and the price is good.

- Maybe upgrade to Windows 7 Ultimate? Personally I tend to go with Professional, but Ultimate is supposed to offer more language options. Could also remove it from the purchase if you can get it cheaper elsewhere (IE, students can often get a discounted educational license in the US).

Looking at it, I swapped to the basic CM690 II, change to Corsair 650W PSU, downgraded to 500GB WD Blue, changed the CPU, changed the GPU to the 560Ti, removed the accessories, and the cost is a little under 8000 DKK. To me, that's a bit pricey for the hardware, but again I have no real basis of comparison for your country, only for the US market.
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#9 Mar 10 2011 at 12:01 PM Rating: Decent
Well, in Denmark we earn quite a bit more than you do in the US, but our prices are generally higher and we pay 40% taxes for our welfare system, but that is another topic. I actually have more than the 10000 DKK, but it is just something to keep me from spending too much. I would like to have 8GB Ram and 1TB, but the rest of your changes seem fairly good:)
I really, really appreciate your help mate, it is fantastic to have helpful and quick-to-respond people like yourself:)

Ps: Which is the better cooling system, water or air?

Edited, Mar 10th 2011 1:11pm by Bullet2chokeupon
#10 Mar 10 2011 at 2:03 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Ps: Which is the better cooling system, water or air?


Depends on what you mean.

A common thing right now are self-contained water coolers, like the Corsair H50/H70. Those tend to offer very good cooling, but AFAIK, a high end air cooling setup can still beat them. Still, they fit easily into more cases, and tend to run relatively quiet. Not cheap, but also not prohibitively expensive.

An actual water cooling system with water blocks on major components (CPU, north bridge, CPU, possibly memory, etc) is very effective...but also very expensive, and much more complex than air cooling.


If you're looking for an upgrade from stock cooling to allow for some reasonable overclocking, then one of the self-contained water coolers is a good, currently popular way to go. That said, it's not a must-have, as you can still do just fine with a good air cooler.
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•• Isiolia - Mithra - Pandemo... Asura FU SE ••
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#11 Mar 10 2011 at 11:16 PM Rating: Decent
Okay I think I will stick to the simple aircooling. I do not even know how to overclock something, so... yeah.
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