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Chocobo digging... new developments?Follow

#1 Aug 16 2007 at 2:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hello,

Before I get to what I have to say, let me give you a little background story.

I have been chocobo digging for as long as I have played this game, basically since late 2004.

When I first started digging, I wasn't very serious about it but as I did it more and more, the more I was hooked. By the time I got a level 40 job, I actually put levelling, crafting and anything else on hiatus in lieu of digging.

From that point on, any time I was in game, I was digging. Some days I would only spend a few hours, some days I would spend upwards of 10 hours a day on a weekend, but rest assured I would log time spent digging every night. Point being, I spent more time digging than I probably should have. When I was at work or not digging, I was researching how to dig better on Somepage's digging section as well as the few very secretive threads that would surface occasionally on Alla. There was a time where I thought I knew everything there was to know regarding digging.

A good solid IRL year, maybe a little more after I went on the levelling hiatus, I finally dinged A10 chocobo digging. I was pumped. In that time I had seen a lot of BS go on. RMT monopolizing every decent digging zone in the game, (some of you may remember my threads cataloguing that topic) people going head to head in fierce competitions to get zones dug out before the other guy, SE nerfing the **** out of digging, I could go on.

Years later, IE today, here we are. There have been a lot of changes to chocobo digging, including taking away our ability to dig more than 100 items per earth day as well as the inclusion of our ability to use our personally raised choco's for digging. I raised one, and it works beautifully... a large Red bird with a gigantic tank sized beak and intelligence/smarts that are maxed.

I am not exactly sure what has caused me to stumble upon what I am about to tell you. Did SE have this in the code the whole time and we just didn't know about it or hadn't reached the number of stacks necessary? Did raising a special digging bird enable this? Did SE secretly slip this in the recent updates without mentioning (very possible considering the whole topic has always been shrouded in secrecy, myth, speculation and half truth.)

I know these claims are going to rock the chocobo digging foundations as we know it, but I would appreciate if you would have an open mind and just ponder my speculations. I have toiled back and forth with this data for a while, wondering if I have lost my marbles or something was glitching... (I have actually been able to do this for about 3 months now) however I hope to get a realistic and mature examination of my findings here. It would also be nice if the NA community could be the first to prove such a discovery in an area of the game that the JP population always had a head start and more knowledge in... providing they already don't know this and their lips have been sealed.

The A10 cap as we have always taken as a hard and fast rule may not necessarily be the case anymore.

One day while digging, I noticed that it was definitely not taking me as long to start digging after I zoned in. This persisted and eventually I /clocked it to verify. Sure enough, I was now averaging a 6 to 7 second delay to dig.

I have always been a follower of the A20 > A15 > A10 progression, even though my times were always more like this A21/22 > A16/17 > A11ish. basically, my area waits are always a second or so longer than the norm but remain within standard accepted values.

We can all agree that the method of quantifying our area waits could use improvement, but I believe the standard approach is:

Zone in
/clock as soon as you can enter any sort of commands in the chat log
spam dig macro until your dig macro fires executes
/clock again asap after your macro works

Therefore, you're left with a start time and an end time, the difference between which would give you your area wait.

I present you with unedited screenshots of this happening, taken from about an hour ago.

CLICK1
CLICK2
CLICK3
CLICK4

As you can see, my area wait time hovers between 6 to 7 seconds. I am actually honestly surprised a fellow skilled digger has not called a GM on me given I typically zone neck in neck with them repeatedly in the hunt for treasure yet can always tear off before they are near being ready to rock.

Time for my theory:

It is in my opinion that this has always been in the code, as diggers we just never got to a point where someone put in the stacks of greens necessary to facilitate the A5 area wait ding.

It is also in my opinion that our capabilities go beyond A5, meaning that I strongly believe that it is feasible we could be capable of Area Wait 0.

I have always questioned as to why SE would stop it at A10 and I thought that A10 was a strange ceiling to be stopped at, but always just shrugged it off and kept on digging. Realistically, you start at such an excruciating Area Wait and Dig Wait delay bringing one of them down to 0, why not both?

I could not even begin to estimate the amount of stacks I have burned through since I dinged A10 a few years ago... but I do know that it was a sufficient amount, enough to make an A5 ding a chronologically possible theory. If that is in fact the case, I highly doubt I will ever see A0, especially given the 100 item/day implementation as well as my time left with this game is growing sparse.

I have one more little theory to throw in, to answer those who might have had this question smash them in the face as soon as they realized what I was alluding to in this post. Yes, A5 allows you to dig up items that were not possible before... and I am NOT just talking about stuff that SE has added in after the patch or stuff that your own personal bird gets with Bore and Burrow.

We were always under the impression that Orichalcum ore (and adaman ore, to a lesser extent) only comes from Rolanberry, and most recently outside Aht Urghan right?

Wrong.

Draw your own conclusions, I welcome your thoughts and feedback. I had to get this out in the open.







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#2 Aug 16 2007 at 10:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Perhaps a screenshot of this ore being dug up would help me believe.

Who's going to compete with you? All those other A5 diggers?
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#3 Aug 16 2007 at 10:54 PM Rating: Decent
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it seems to take longer for me to dig when i zone into jugner. longer than A10. maybe its the way it loads, i dunno.

as far as A5 perhaps it is true- i remember reading someone claiming to have it but who knows.

it would be nice to see that happen.

as far as digging up really rare stuff in other zones, it would be nice to see some screenshots.

#4 Aug 17 2007 at 3:18 AM Rating: Good
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Fair enough, as soon as I can get either an adaman or orichalcum in a zone other than rolanberry or aht urhgan I'll post a screenie...(mind you they are kinda rare, so it may take me a few tries)

Anyways I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say it will help you believe, because I've already posted screenshots that take a **** all over the system that we currently have taken as concrete for years and years, but I can understand your doubt.

Further than this, I often dig in the deserts when it isn't time to hunt for elemental ore. I am going to collect a list of all the junk I dig this weekend and post it so we can compare what else may or may not be a result of these new findings. Look for that edited in probably by the end of this weekend.

As for loading times in Jugner, I sort of touched on that in my above post. There has always been confusion about exactly how to measure your area wait and people have always had varied results.

For me as I said, my wait times have always been A10+1.

That's why I really wanted to confirm this before posting, and I think I have. There is no way a 6 or 7 second wait time can just be considered user based variance. I could see 9 seconds, even maybe 8 at a long shot but...

Edited, Aug 17th 2007 7:31:48am by Tankor
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#5 Aug 17 2007 at 4:23 AM Rating: Good
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Just out of curiosity, do you dig with Bore/Burrow bird? Because there's adaman in deserts if you have Bore. Think I found orichalcum somewhere unusual too but can't remember, it's been a while. Wiki's lists are pretty incomplete, and they list burrow items for bore and other way around.

Can't really say anything about the wait times, my wait times range wildly depending on lag. /shrug.
#6 Aug 17 2007 at 11:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hello,

This is going to be a long post, so excuse me, but please read it all! Please?....

I'd like to add my opinion here based on observations I've made – but first, some background on what I've been doing in Vana'diel. I started playing back in 2003, quickly discovering that the earning of gil was foremost on the problem list and needed to be solved before other things. I stopped leveling and started researching, experimenting, and fooling around. After several months of doing various things, I started chocobo digging. This was at a time where you could go to an area at virtually any time outside of JP peak times (because the JP diggers would be on digging out the areas during JP times) and the item pool would be nearly full no matter where you went. For many, many months I was able to go dig to my heart's content without competition, in a botless environment. It was heaven. Digging became my “final fantasy” and was all I ever did for hours on end every single day. At present, my area wait is approximately 5 seconds.

And now, the point of my post.

I am absolutely convinced that area wait zero exists. The reason for that is because I've seen it personally several times. My server is Remora (though it hasn't always been). A couple years ago or so, there was a guy named Babiru (JP Paladin) who would choco-dig in full +1 Adaman gear. I'd be in Yuhtunga pinching off logs right next to the zone line and in he'd ride in all blue and shiny, digging. But here's the thing – he'd already be in the middle of the digging animation as his character faded in. And he'd do it in other areas too so I knew this was not a phenomena caused by 'lag'. The guy really was digging the very moment he zoned in!

Babiru apparently quit a long time ago. I have not seen him on for close to two years, but you can still see his name if you look at the auction house for the adaman +1 pieces.

The next person I saw with A0 was Ichigotan, back in 2004. Before the dig-bot duo Sphagnum and Coty moved in, Ichigotan (taru) was the God-Ordained, Holy Protector of The Rolanberry Fields and a force to be reckoned with! When he was on, the Orichalcum ores would piddle their gil gilted underpants. His chocobo would peck the taste right out of your mouth! You did not want to mess with Ichigotan, he was insane and his thirst for Orichalcum legendary. I spotted him A0'ing (digging at the same time he was zoning) in Battalia.

However, the most memorable person is Katanaxx (oh how I HATED him). Katanaxx was at area wait 5 for a -long- time, but one day when I cycling through my macros checking where the other diggers were, I noticed he had a search comment up. I read it and it said (in Japanese) “Finally, FINALLY I have reached A0 (Area Wait Zero). If you want to go head to head with me, I'll dust you! Know it!” He was very specific in writing “Area Wait Zero” in parenthesis (in Katakana) after “A0” to make damned sure no one reading it would mistakenly think he meant Digging Wait Zero. His comment left quite an impression on me because until that point, I hadn't encountered that style of "Yeah! In your face!" bragging on a JP comment line. I believe Katanaxx still plays but oddly, he did not do a lot of choco digging after he attained A0. I do not know why. Perhaps that was his goal, and once he reached it he was satisfied. If you speak Japanese and are on Remora, you can probably send Katanaxx a tell when he's on and ask him about it.

So I have enough evidence to go on to believe in A0 (and certainly in A less than 10, because I am A5). However, I stopped digging after the great digging nerf. I used to dig for up to 10-12 hours a stretch (on weekends) but now it is impossible to get an hour before maxing out. I loved chasing other diggers around, outwitting them when I could – or being outwitted and then being ANGRY and wanting sweet, sweet revenge! It was a sport. The “pre-nerf” choco diggers hated each others guts, that's for sure, but we were still a community. I miss that. Maybe one day, when buying gil is something that is no longer done, SE will give choco digging back to us. And if you're reading this Crauge, Soeun, and all the others. I'll be back to give you **** if they do!

-ljacket

Edited, Aug 18th 2007 4:21:41am by ljacket

Edited, Aug 18th 2007 10:38:32am by ljacket
#7 Aug 18 2007 at 8:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Very interesting...

It would be great to see the progression continue, but could you imagine what it would take now with the gimp. Probably 3 years to get to A0.

How I wish SE could un-gimp digging again. I've been sitting at A20 myself forever, and probably have over a year of digging to finally get to A10. While the botters and exploiters were a pain, the joy of digging has diminished with these changes.

Either up it to 200 or 300 (which is really only going to take you an hour), or maybe switch from stacks used to 'number of items dug'.

Thanks for the info ^^v

-Ten
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#8 Aug 18 2007 at 11:43 AM Rating: Decent
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i would settle for pebbles not counting toward my total...
#9 Aug 19 2007 at 6:26 AM Rating: Good
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The screenshots really don't prove anything since you simply could have waited to '/clock on' until you were in the zone a couple of seconds. I'm a skeptic of higher than /a10 just because it seems so natural to have 10 levels. I've been /a10 for over two years now and probably dug 2-3 times more after hitting /a10 than getting to it. I haven't /clocked in forever, but I would bet I'm over 40,000 stacks of greens easy. If it takes 10-12k to hit /a10 and I don't have it by 40k stacks I don't reckon I'll try for it specifically......
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#10 Aug 19 2007 at 8:05 AM Rating: Decent
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BarberofSeville wrote:
The screenshots really don't prove anything since you simply could have waited to '/clock on' until you were in the zone a couple of seconds.


You could take that approach, as I figured some people would. You're entitled to your opinion, but really, why would I even bother posting this if it was a hoax? It's not like I am possibly gaining anything by making this up and I would be wasting my own time and everyone elses...

If you could set out some way for me to prove my area wait I would do it but I can't think of a viable method other than those screens.

Just remember, everything we discover in a game starts like this... as speculation. If you don't believe me that's fine, but I myself know personally I can start digging well before an A10 digger. That's all I know.

Anyways, I am heading out to dig right now (I haven't been on the game much this weekend so hopefully I get some good results if it's not too dug out already) so maybe I'll have some more screens to post.

Edited, Aug 19th 2007 12:09:23pm by Tankor
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#11 Aug 19 2007 at 9:08 AM Rating: Good
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don't get me wrong.....i hope its true. But a lot of people (hi2u eruntalon) have given the 'why would I post a hoax' retort when making outrageous statements (although I wouldn't call this outrageous). A couple of things to note:

1) your wait time starts when you stop 'downloading data' not when your screen turns from black. You can actually spam echo macros and have a whole page of them before you can actually see anything on screen in some zones. This happens in some places longer than others which has made some people think they actually had different /wait times depending on the zone.

2) checking vs other diggers wont really work. If you have ever had the opportunity to duel box you know that your character shows up on your screen in a different relation to the person you are 'racing' than it does on their screen or a neutral screen. It's gonna have to be done with /clock on somehow. I don't know how you would 'prove' that other than a video and even that could be manipulated.

Of course, the greatest proof would be digging items that haven't been reported in those zones using a rental choc. But like I say, I'm at 40k+ stacks and have dug every zone often (especially on ore days) and this just hasn't happened, nor have I ever seen a SS of anyone getting an out of place item. I'm afraid until this happens that the burden of proof will be too difficult to overturn without firsthand experiance.
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#12 Aug 19 2007 at 11:02 AM Rating: Default
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BarberofSeville wrote:
(although I wouldn't call this outrageous).


My thoughts exactly. This isn't some crazy claim that I can walk on water, or something that is of the same nature as the work Eruntalon did. This is more of a possible heads up as to what still remains to be uncovered. I'm not a person to waste my time on things that amount to nothing.

BarberofSeville wrote:
1) your wait time starts when you stop 'downloading data' not when your screen turns from black. You can actually spam echo macros and have a whole page of them before you can actually see anything on screen in some zones. This happens in some places longer than others which has made some people think they actually had different /wait times depending on the zone.


I understand what you're saying, and I agree that the area wait checking system is sketchy at best. However that doesn't explain the fact that I was A10 wait for a long, long time and in the recent past I have been able to surpass that delay. I would commit to you being right if I had always had trouble determining I had A10 clearance, but I did my time at an A10 wait and I am dealing with a quantifiable lesser delay now.

BarberofSeville wrote:
Of course, the greatest proof would be digging items that haven't been reported in those zones using a rental choc. But like I say, I'm at 40k+ stacks and have dug every zone often (especially on ore days) and this just hasn't happened, nor have I ever seen a SS of anyone getting an out of place item. I'm afraid until this happens that the burden of proof will be too difficult to overturn without firsthand experiance.


I have to be honest Barber, I have always been a fan of your posts related to digging and agreed with the stuff you've said however I can't honestly agree with your words above.

You know as well as I do, according to what we currently know of chocobo digging (with the exception of orichalcum ore, elemental ore, adaman ore and maybe one or two other more rare items available via chocobo digging that are more frequently dug around maybe A25 through A10) that raising your dig level does not necessarily offer you the ability to dig up new items, it just offers you the ability to be able to have a better % chance of digging them up.

It is very possible for a digger that is of a higher wait time than A20 or so to dig up ori ore, elemental ore and the like. We see screen shots of it sometimes from people that are caught off guard by surprisingly digging stuff up like that. I have done that myselfat about A25 or A30 on both ori ore in Rolanberry and a fire ore one time in Zi'Tah. It is in my opinion that if no other diggers are in a zone and you keep digging it relentlessly that you will get some of the more rare items that a zone has to offer that a higher level digger would have dug up quickly.

Obviously I am not saying that it is possible for a level 1 digger to score ori or ele ore but you know what I mean.

My main point being, by saying early in my speculation that having an area wait 5 does allow you or doesn't allow you to dig up ori or adaman ore in other locations that they historically never have been dug before is not necessarily reflective of accurately possessing an A5 digging ability.

I am not accurately able to discern whether A5 ability goes hand in hand with being able to dig up new items in certain areas. One person mentioned that adaman ore was able to be dug with the addition of bore or burrow. I was not aware of this... I do know I had my bore/burrow bird for a while, then around the time I noticed my area wait time had decreased I was able to dig ori and adaman ore in the deserts several months after bore/burrow had been introduced... so why did I never obtain those with bore/burrow before?

Luck/chance? maybe. Who knows. I don't, and I don't think you can 100% for sure say either. I could be wrong about the adaman / ori in the deserts being tied to A5... come to think of it I probably am. Oh well. I am adamant however that the ability to dig those items and surpassing the A10 barrier are two seperate topics of discussion. I initially made the mistake of tying them both together. I am still confident of having a less than A10 wait time.

You say that you would be more inclined to believe me if I could post a screenshot showing never dug before items from other zones... I hope you will now agree with me that digging a rare item from an alternate zone will not necessarily indicate anything given the bore/burrow potential effects on the treasure pool.

Secondly, you mention that the burden of proof is hard to overturn without first hand experience... I know this is a significant claim to make, but realistically what's the difference between you and I? Say you were to ding A5 tomorrow and post your findings as well, what's to stop someone else from coming here and looking at us both like we'velost it completely?

Please don't take offence to what I am saying, I appreciate and enjoy your feedback/discussion. Please keep it coming.

One last thing: I know someone said Adaman was legitimately available in the deserts, but I'll post it anyway.

Click

I didn't get any orichalcum so far today, but I still have about 5 or 6 stacks of greens left for today... although I usually find if I get an adaman, I won't get an ori. Either one or the other, never both. Wierd.



Edited, Aug 19th 2007 3:04:32pm by Tankor
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#13 Aug 19 2007 at 11:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I know this is a significant claim to make, but realistically what's the difference between you and I? Say you were to ding A5 tomorrow and post your findings as well, what's to stop someone else from coming here and looking at us both like we'velost it completely?


Nothing at all. I would expect the criticism and probably be frustrated nobody believed me :)

As of right now wiki doesn't have adaman listed in the deserts with the bore/burrow abilities. That, of course, doesn't mean anything since high level diggers are a secretive lot and probably wouldn't tell the wiki a thing. However, I'm pretty sure its one of these abilities that is the cause for adaman there, not /a5.

Something that has not been discussed is that burrow/bore may give you a reduced /wait time. This would be easy to test, just rent a bird and check your wait time vs your red birds wait time. However, if you are consistently digging at 7 seconds after zone on rented and owned birds, then we are back to square one.

Also, do you play hot and cold? Some people who are currently leveling digging are reporting decreased wait times with significantly fewer stacks if they play hot and cold. It may be a 'goblin diggeresque' myth, but if 50k stacks is required for /a5 and hot and cold is that powerful it could be a reason.

Truthfully.....I just can't believe someone has it if I don't. I had /a10 when my highest job was 38. Dinged right around the time COP was released and have dug everyday since then. I just can't fathom anyone digging more than I have. That's not to say I'm up im arms and jealous, just skeptical due to the amount I've dug personally without seeing this happen.
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#14 Aug 19 2007 at 12:11 PM Rating: Decent
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BarberofSeville wrote:
Nothing at all. I would expect the criticism and probably be frustrated nobody believed me :)


I am not really frustrated, tbh I fully expected their to be feedback of this nature, and rightfully so. No one should ever take anything anyone says at par. You're setting yourself up for grave disappointment in life if you do. Besides, we cant really have a discussion about this if there isn't an opposing side, right?

BarberofSeville wrote:
As of right now wiki doesn't have adaman listed in the deserts with the bore/burrow abilities. That, of course, doesn't mean anything since high level diggers are a secretive lot and probably wouldn't tell the wiki a thing. However, I'm pretty sure its one of these abilities that is the cause for adaman there, not /a5.


I agree. As I said earlier, I was definitely not aware that adaman was a possibility due to bore/burrow, but I can see how it is definitely a reasonable probability. Orichalcum I am a little more doubtful of, but on the other hand if it offers adaman, Ori has to be in that category too. Nevertheless, it's still pretty cool that those two items are now confirmed digs in the deserts. I will eventually manage to get an ori ore SS from the deserts and post it. Stay tuned.

BarberofSeville wrote:
Something that has not been discussed is that burrow/bore may give you a reduced /wait time. This would be easy to test, just rent a bird and check your wait time vs your red birds wait time. However, if you are consistently digging at 7 seconds after zone on rented and owned birds, then we are back to square one.


I will grab some SS of area wait tests on a rental, just for comparison's sake.

BarberofSeville wrote:
Also, do you play hot and cold? Some people who are currently leveling digging are reporting decreased wait times with significantly fewer stacks if they play hot and cold. It may be a 'goblin diggeresque' myth, but if 50k stacks is required for /a5 and hot and cold is that powerful it could be a reason.


I have spent time playing hot and cold when it first came out however I certainly haven't done it with any sort of regularity. It is probable there are side effects of playing/successfully completing that game but I am sure they are subtle and hard to pinpoint exactly what they are or could be... The only way to really to discern those would be to make a mule that has never dug before, and use a choco that has no other abilities that impact digging in any way....

BarberofSeville wrote:
Truthfully.....I just can't believe someone has it if I don't. I had /a10 when my highest job was 38. Dinged right around the time COP was released and have dug everyday since then. I just can't fathom anyone digging more than I have. That's not to say I'm up im arms and jealous, just skeptical due to the amount I've dug personally without seeing this happen.


I know you're not jealous... as I said above, someone has to play the role you're playing and who better than a fellow knowledgeable digger such as yourself. The thing about this, and really SE in general (as we can see similar trends in crafting) is that every little thing we do has so many variable and potential outcomes and repercussions that who knows exactly what makes things amount to what they do. Maybe I have fulfilled some stupid and ridiculous requirement to ding up that we don't know of it's existence. Maybe it's as simple as digging up 500 elemental ore, maybe it's you have to dig up 100 of those during a certain percentage moon phase, not just over the whole window.

Or maybe you have to dig up 1000 ori ores while holding your breath, jumping up and down on one foot and clapping. People can fabricate some extremely far fetched theories.

Edited, Aug 19th 2007 4:13:53pm by Tankor
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#15 Aug 20 2007 at 5:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Left you a PM on a different matter.
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#16 Aug 20 2007 at 8:03 AM Rating: Default
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Replied.
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#17 Aug 20 2007 at 9:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Tankor wrote:
Zone in
/clock as soon as you can enter any sort of commands in the chat log
spam dig macro until your dig macro fires executes
/clock again asap after your macro works


out of curiousity i tried that macro today and i counted 7 seconds between my clock times.

my theory as to why is because the first clock is a delay- theres your reaction to when you can record your time when you zone. its possible that the clock was already ticking on the server and now were just waiting for a response from the server.

then theres the period of time to wait for the dig to actually work when you spam. that might account for another second.

and that last second is accounted again by the response from you to hit /clock on.

i've had an area 5 macro for years now- just on the off chance it does exist. i dont try it often but one can dream.



#18 Aug 21 2007 at 1:37 AM Rating: Good
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If you've done the chocobo riding game from city to city. You'll know that each time you zone, it shows you how long you've been riding for.
By the time mine shows up after I've zoned and the screen has fully loaded, 8-11 seconds (Varying of course) has already passed since the server first registered me zoning.

I think if you really want to get an accurate time this could be the best way to tell. Only downfall is you'll only be able to do it once per week :/
#19 Aug 21 2007 at 3:57 AM Rating: Decent
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knips wrote:
Tankor wrote:
Zone in
/clock as soon as you can enter any sort of commands in the chat log
spam dig macro until your dig macro fires executes
/clock again asap after your macro works


out of curiousity i tried that macro today and i counted 7 seconds between my clock times.

my theory as to why is because the first clock is a delay- theres your reaction to when you can record your time when you zone. its possible that the clock was already ticking on the server and now were just waiting for a response from the server.

then theres the period of time to wait for the dig to actually work when you spam. that might account for another second.

and that last second is accounted again by the response from you to hit /clock on.

i've had an area 5 macro for years now- just on the off chance it does exist. i dont try it often but one can dream.


You're not listening to me.

Before this lower area wait came into play, I would attempt to dig up until a full 10 to 11 seconds before I was able to dig. Now this number is 6 to 7 seconds.

Also, the number of messages of "You must wait longer to perform this action" has decreased by half. So before, at A10, I used to get 6 or however many. Now I only get told that I must wait longer 3 times.

What you're saying is that I am just too slow on the draw to be able to correctly quantify an A5 area wait... but if that was the case I would (or anyone else for that matter) would not be able to do that for A10 then either. Just because you're going down to A5, that doesn't mean all **** breaks loose and we can't use some simple macro and clock tools to perform some deductive logic.

On top of that, I fire my dig macro and clock cmd as quick as humanly possible. It's not like I stand around idly waiting for a good time to push it. I hit it the moment a command can be entered. I don't type out the clock command either to execute it, I have it ready and in my past log and press the up arrow once and then press enter. There isn't as much delay there as you're indicating.

Edited, Aug 21st 2007 8:02:32am by Tankor
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#20 Aug 21 2007 at 6:27 AM Rating: Decent
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maybe you misunderstand me as well.

i assume youre firing off as fast and as humanly possible. youre a digger like me and you mash as soon as you can.

im referring to delay of the server vs client and the timing of the macro response not your reaction. i should have been more clear on that.

when i used your macro suggestion i was doing it as fast as i could so i could duplicate it.

edited for clarity:

the only other answer is i am A5 as well now. or as you suggest that some subtle change may have happened.

more importantly- i believe you will find that a lot of people will be able to duplicate you time results with your macro.






Edited, Aug 21st 2007 10:31:51am by knips

Edited, Aug 21st 2007 10:37:20am by knips
#21 Aug 21 2007 at 8:18 AM Rating: Default
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Ok, I will humour your point for the sake of argument, but what your lag response does not account for is that my dig macro (which hasn't been altered) has always fired off at 10 seconds after zone (which was the circumstance for a couple years) and recently being able to execute in less time now? If I had lag then, how would I all of a sudden have none now?

I was suffering from lag all that time and now suddenly it has disappeared and that is the only explanation? Must be lag. I guess that argument can be applied to a lot of topics in this game. That guy outclaimed me on an NM!! He either must be a gilseller or I must have been lagging. I would be willing to wager that those two auto-responses from the FFXI community are not always the 100% tried and true answer to all that we don't understand.

You say you used my macro suggestion? What exactly is your macro that you use(d)?

I will concede to you being correct regarding communication times between server and client having an impact on zone in time and the elapsed time till you can input commands... but this isn't what I am referring to. I am merely saying, I know what A10 is/was, I was stuck at it for two years. A little bit of lag or human response time does not account for a player knowingly being at a community accepted wait time and then suddenly it changes.
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#22 Aug 21 2007 at 4:19 PM Rating: Decent
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knips wrote:



Tankor wrote:
Zone in
/clock as soon as you can enter any sort of commands in the chat log
spam dig macro until your dig macro fires executes
/clock again asap after your macro works







was there something else i should have done?
#23 Aug 22 2007 at 3:15 AM Rating: Decent
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I didn't mean post the strategy I already posted, I said please post your macro. No need to get ***** friend.

All you caught from my post is one little question in the middle?

Edited, Aug 22nd 2007 7:19:53am by Tankor
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#24 Aug 22 2007 at 7:20 AM Rating: Decent
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lol i'm not being ******

i just used what you recommended.

/clock on is one macro


then /dig is another


my /wait 5 /dig macro still doesnt work.

you made an interesting observation and you conceded a few points.

i admit it is interesting however i don't see it as significant as i have noticed nothing differnt in my digs.

you feel its very significant of something but i don't feel the same way.

now you do admit that your clock with other areas always felt off so you were at a12 or a16 17ish and by using that same logic i can see how this might seem very significant.

i sincerely hope i am mistaken in my opinion as nothing would make me happier to realize i am a5 as well and that there is more to digging than a10.

your first post you stated that there are now special items because of this new area dig time. someone pointed out that this is normal with a raised chocobo with bore/burrow.

i only use rental chocobos and still i have noticed nothing differnt from what i normally dig up.











#25 Aug 22 2007 at 7:34 AM Rating: Decent
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knips wrote:

your first post you stated that there are now special items because of this new area dig time. someone pointed out that this is normal with a raised chocobo with bore/burrow.


I'm still awaiting confirmation on this from an official site. Not that I don't see that the probability for ori and adaman ore to be dug from the deserts, but as of current, Somepage's guide does not list these items.

knips wrote:
my /wait 5 /dig macro still doesnt work.


That's no surprise, if I made a /wait 10 dig macro when I was A10 it wouldn't have worked even though I was officially A10... so that really doesn't mean much.

If I was to make a /wait 6 dig macro and it worked would you still consider that as A10?

Edited, Aug 22nd 2007 11:38:53am by Tankor
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#26 Aug 22 2007 at 7:46 AM Rating: Good
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Ive been diggin for about ~3 years now. I have also been A10 for well over a year. I used to dig 4~10 hours (lolrmtstyle) a day and make bank before deflation.

I believe if there was an A5 I would have hit it long ago.

When leveling digging I always used /wait -2 under the current level I was going for and it would always succeed when I dinged. I think theres just a small time gap that will allow you to dig a few seconds early.

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#27 Aug 22 2007 at 6:07 PM Rating: Default
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I finally got another one. Hot of the presses, enjoy.

click
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#28 Aug 22 2007 at 7:40 PM Rating: Decent
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do that on a rental chocobo and i will believe.
#29 Aug 22 2007 at 7:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Believe what, exactly?

I have come to the conclusion that you're not going to believe anything I say, so I have given up trying. I'm not about to jump through any more hoops for you.

The data I have concluded is there, people can judge for themselves just as you have.

PS: I find it quite amusing that every single one of your posts are rated up the moment you post them. I truly hope karma isn't that important to you that you own a rate-bot. I have taken the liberty to fix that imbalance. I hope you don't mind.

Cue the "I have no idea what you're talking about" or "someone else is doing it, not me" auto response. Every single post you make, immediately? Come on man, at least if your going to do it, make it subtle.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2007 12:01:45am by Tankor
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#30 Aug 23 2007 at 6:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Id like to see that from a rental chocobo too.
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#31 Aug 23 2007 at 7:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Tankor wrote:
Believe what, exactly?

I have come to the conclusion that you're not going to believe anything I say, so I have given up trying. I'm not about to jump through any more hoops for you.

The data I have concluded is there, people can judge for themselves just as you have.

PS: I find it quite amusing that every single one of your posts are rated up the moment you post them. I truly hope karma isn't that important to you that you own a rate-bot. I have taken the liberty to fix that imbalance. I hope you don't mind.

Cue the "I have no idea what you're talking about" or "someone else is doing it, not me" auto response. Every single post you make, immediately? Come on man, at least if your going to do it, make it subtle.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2007 12:01:45am by Tankor



lol actually i noticed that when i posted i saw that it listed my rating as good. it didnt start at decent. then everytime i came back it was rated to decent. obviously you couldn't stand to see that so thus you rated it down down. basically you dont understand how the karma rating system works here.

no matter- i don't understand your hostility.

why are you so concerned? i am not making you jump through hoops. you made two claims. one that area wait time might not be the hard and fast accepted rule of area 10. you made the hoops and claimed you jumped through them yourself.

you also made the claim that because of that you are now able to dig up items in other zones when in fact its really most likely due to your raised chocobo.

i never took the attitude of being ****** you were the one who threw that on me. i just have my doubts about it.

either way i admitted that although interesting i did not see it as significant. i also admitted that i hope i am wrong about that.



#32 Aug 23 2007 at 8:34 AM Rating: Decent
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I think you're the one that is confused friend, you may wish to do your research before indicating that I need to do mine. You're right about one thing however... for some odd reason your posts do start off as rated "good" but that is technically an impossibility considering scholar level users posts start off as rated decent.

But considering every single one of your posts is rated to good immediately after you post, how else are you going to explain that occurrence? Magic? Face it, unless you have a fan boy or you're doing it to your own posts no one is going to follow you around on this forum and rate every single one of your posts up to good within seconds of it being posted... especially when the post basically yields no merit or content or anything of use or interest. People just don't do that. Don't act like everything you have ever posted ever is of merit in some light and don't try to indicate I need to be schooled in how ratings in this forum work man. I've had so many ratings and sub-defaultings in my time here that nothing you can say will teach me anything.

I am in no way being hostile... I just hate people that use rate bots. Doesn't matter anyway, an admin will kill your ratebot sooner or later and then what will you do?

Here's an idea, if you need to pad your karma consistently, perhaps you should try to alter your posting style to not being so bold and in your face and sometimes rude. Just a thought, then you wouldn't need to employ your rate bot.

Don't flatter yourself, I couldn't care less if you get rated up, down, left or right legitimately. It's so childish and silly.

If you think I am going to take my time digging with a rental bird and potentially missing out on good items I could be getting with my raised bird you're sadly mistaken. It took me the better part of a week to get an ori with the raised bird, if you are correct that only raised birds can dig it up then I would be wasting a truckload of time for nothing. It doesn't matter anyway, like I said previously, the availability of that specific item in the deserts and area wait are two different topics of discussion.

There's being negative for no reason, and then there is being oppositional and inquisitive and offering value into this thread.

Take care.
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#33 Aug 23 2007 at 9:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Your a funny guy. I was the one who rated his last post up after he made. Yes I do camp these boards during the morning because Im at work so I saw it literrally 2 mins after it was posted. lol @ your karma bot *********

Quote:
Don't flatter yourself, I couldn't care less if you get rated up, down, left or right legitimately. It's so childish and silly.


If you dont care then why are you rating people?



Here how about a new twist

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Chocobo_Digging

where is ori ore? photoshop anyone?
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#34 Aug 23 2007 at 9:27 AM Rating: Decent
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You sit here and rate up every single one of his posts? I feel sorry for you.

I'm not rating people. People is plural.

A new twist? Have you even read the thread? People have been going on back and forth the whole **** time about whether ori and adaman ore have been diggable in the deserts with burrow/bore. I even said myself "I am still waiting to see an official posting on somepage for the inclusion of these two items." Go back and read the post, stop wasting my time.

Furthermore if I was just going to photoshop a quick fix to post, why didn't I just do it sooner... like the day of? It took me like four or five days to finally dig one of those ores and that's all you can come up with is photoshop? Nice try, but fail.

LOL, you're a funny guy.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2007 1:33:19pm by Tankor
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#35 Aug 23 2007 at 9:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You sit here and rate up every single one of his posts? I feel sorry for you.


Quote:
Have you even read the thread?


Reading comprehension ftl?

Quote:
Furthermore if I was just going to photoshop a quick fix to post, why didn't I just do it sooner... like the day of? It took me like four or five days to finally dig one of those ores and that's all you can come up with is photoshop? Nice try, but fail.


Someone got his panties in a bunch over a joke. You could be just too stupid to use photoshop and need a buttbuddy to help you?

I may fail, but you phail at life.



lol the tool is a grammar ****


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#36 Aug 23 2007 at 9:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Don't be bitter because you opened your mouth without reading the thread and now you look foolish.

Any time you want to be my **** buddy and photoshop me digging up a ridill please do so. I could use a **** buddy, and a ridill but not necessarily in that order.

No, I'm not too stupid to use photoshop, I just don't need to. Every screenshoot I've posted here is legit. Have an expert photoshopper check them.

How exactly do you determine I am failing at life? The last I checked you don't even know me? If you're that good at determining people's quality of lives when you've never even met them you could probably put your talents to better use than arguing common sense on the internet.

lol i type small now



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#37 Aug 23 2007 at 10:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Don't be bitter because you opened your mouth without reading the thread and now you look foolish.


Quote:
You sit here and rate up every single one of his posts


Don't put me on glass and be a grammar **** when you can't get things straight yourself.
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#38 Aug 23 2007 at 10:11 AM Rating: Decent
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You can repeat that as many times as you wish, that doesn't stop the thread from showing you completely ignored one of the major discussions in the thread completely. GG

Tankor wrote:

I'm still awaiting confirmation on this from an official site. Not that I don't see that the probability for ori and adaman ore to be dug from the deserts, but as of current, Somepage's guide does not list these items.]


Deadonarrival wrote:

Here how about a new twist

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Chocobo_Digging

where is ori ore? photoshop anyone?


Anyways, I wash my hands of this useless and stupid bickering now. If anyone else has anything useful to post or add to the discussion, I will post back.

Thanks.

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#39 Aug 23 2007 at 10:28 AM Rating: Decent
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lol you somepage as your digging resource?

That's fine I understand that you can't take a joke or accept the fact that people disagree with you.


Quote:
you completely ignored one of the major discussions in the thread completely.


Keep assuming buddy because we all know what it does.


Quote:
How exactly do you determine I am failing at life? The last I checked you don't even know me? If you're that good at determining people's quality of lives when you've never even met them you could probably put your talents to better use than arguing common sense on the internet.



Just for the record too, I'm a psych major, work in the mental health field, and make money playing semi-pro texas hold em so you did make a good assumption.



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#40 Aug 23 2007 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Anyways, I wash my hands of this useless and stupid bickering now. If anyone else has anything useful to post or add to the discussion, I will post back.

Thanks.



useful info: If someone's karma is high enough they do start with a 'good' rating. I don't know where the cutoff is, but its not at sage. My posts always start 'good' and I don't have a rate bot. As a matter of fact if I ever logged off my main account here I'd never be able to post again as I don't know the password and my email for this account is long closed.


Also, while people are arguing I think it boils down to this: I (and many others) think it much more likely that burrow/bore is responsible for ores in the desert than /a5 is. Why? 1) Because burrow/bore are responsible for other high end items that were never available in certain zones before. and 2) of all the /a10 diggers I have ever known or spoken with only one person has claimed to be a higher level than that.


I am /a10. Have been for years. My choc will be ready to ride within 2 weeks. I'll go out there and try to dig up an ore (although on my server the desert is rarely the most profitable area with my woodworking skill). If I do get one I think we can safely put this to bed. If not, then there may be something to this. The burrow/bore part of the equation is something that has to be taken out in order to legitamize the claims of a level higher than /a10 being responsible for these ores. Since digging on a rental is not something Tankor wants to do (and why should he, it will cost him money), I'll do the next best thing and try for the ores on my raised bird when I can. If any of you have raised birds I suggest you do the same. Until then it appears a stalemate, although as I've said the burdon of proof is always on the person refuting what is universally known and not those upholding what the vast majority have experianced. In this case that would be tankor.
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#41 Aug 23 2007 at 10:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Deadonarrival wrote:
lol you somepage as your digging resource?

That's fine I understand that you can't take a joke or accept the fact that people disagree with you.

Keep assuming buddy because we all know what it does.

Just for the record too, I'm a psych major, work in the mental health field, and make money playing semi-pro texas hold em so you did make a good assumption.



That's interesting.

Tankor wrote:

Anyways, I wash my hands of this useless and stupid bickering now. If anyone else has anything useful to post or add to the discussion, I will post back.

Thanks.

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#42 Aug 23 2007 at 10:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Hey Barber. I was under the impression that it was a sage cut off for your posts to be auto rated good, however if what you say is true than I rescind that thought.

As for the ori ore being tied to A5, I thought we split that into two separate developments? I don't think A5 and getting that ore has anything to do with each other. Digging an ore does not equal a lesser dig delay.

As for obtaining an ori on a rental bird, ***** it. After I am done capping goldsmithing (should be very soon, 99.9 currently) I will dig with a rental and see what I come up with. Until then I just can't afford any lost profit, or not potentially getting any ori pieces...

That being said, I'm sure if I was to get an ori with a rental, people are still going to either say it's fake or downplay it in some fashion, just because they can... It's happened with every successive screenshot that has been posted so far.

I guess you're right, the burden of proof is a tough one.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2007 3:40:55pm by Tankor
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#43 Aug 23 2007 at 11:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Digging an ore does not equal a lesser dig delay.


No it dosn't but there is a limit to which you can dig specific items. ie.. Elemental ores etc..

Quote:
or not potentially getting any ori pieces...


Why not just dig in rolanberry then? Theres atleast a decent chance of getting one there, but long are the days when you can /clock and come back for it.

Quote:
98.8 currently


Interesting.
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#44 Aug 23 2007 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Deadonarrival wrote:


Why not just dig in rolanberry then? Theres atleast a decent chance of getting one there, but long are the days when you can /clock and come back for it.


Personally I dig the deserts mostly because I get a lot of bone chips, femurs etc among other items I can use to advance bonecraft and the rest of my subcrafts, as well as my alchemist friend uses all the philosopher stones I get.

Quote:
98.8 currently


Deadonarrival wrote:
Interesting.


What's interesting? The fact I made a mistake and typo'd my level but it showed 99+3 in my sig? At the time of typing that it was actually 99.8 I mistakenly entered an eight instead of a nine.

click

In between that post and now I actually got another 0.1, so am now 99.9 only 1 more skill up to go. Too bad it's taking me an average of 5 to 10 synths to get one skill point :x

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#45 Aug 23 2007 at 12:01 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Too bad it's taking me an average of 5 to 10 synths to get one skill point


When I did my 90's stretches. (ww,leather,smith) I hoard synths. I would buy out the AH and stock up my mules. I was very supersticious sp? and only crafter on day of the crystal + full moon and averaged just about 1 skill up in ~3.56 synths.

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#46 Aug 23 2007 at 12:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Deadonarrival wrote:
Quote:
Too bad it's taking me an average of 5 to 10 synths to get one skill point


When I did my 90's stretches. (ww,leather,smith) I hoard synths. I would buy out the AH and stock up my mules. I was very supersticious sp? and only crafter on day of the crystal + full moon and averaged just about 1 skill up in ~3.56 synths.



I'm envious. Sometimes I will get lucky and get 0.2 out of 3 attempts made, but then others I will either have stupid things happen like busting the pre-synths that I am 10 over the cap for or going 10 synths+ without a skill up.

SE is fickle.
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#47 Aug 23 2007 at 7:02 PM Rating: Decent
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I really think the sad part (and yes I'm here to say it) is the fact that Tankor doesn't wanna do it on a rental and hence he just started going on with the name calling. I really don't get why a 100+ gil rental is so bad, **** you're a 99+3 GS, I don't get how you won't have any gil to even show that you did use a rental to get it. Let's just end all this speculation crap and just say, while it looks "bleak", hold off on the idea of A-5 until you really show a proof that it truly exists on every area you try and dig, and use a rental and show that you ended up digging an Ori Ore in the desert, plain and simple. But of course, how can you proove someone that he's using a rental instead of a raised? well, I think Barber would provide us that info soon enough. Either way, until either 2 are given and "SHOWN" proof with, everyone will just be skeptic about it.

Ik
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#48 Aug 23 2007 at 7:24 PM Rating: Decent
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The name calling? Where? Even if there was any name calling, which there wasn't, it would have nothing to do with not wanting to rent a chocobo... ?

Since you obviously don't really understand what it is you're insinuating, I'll explain it to you.

Levelling goldsmith to 100 costs a lot of gil. A bust (which at this stage of goldsmithing, is always critical bust) costs roughly 350k per synth. Do the math. That's the equivalent to losing a scorp harness or a haubergeon with every bust. How long could you withstand that pace?

I don't know about you, but I am having a hard time footing the bill for the drive to the end... unfortunately, the synth I am doing is also a break even at best synth, so there is no relief from any angle on the massive gil sink. With no money coming in and a lot going out my bank has depleted rapidly.

Secondly, it is not just the gil I would be spending to rent the bird. As I pointed out in an earlier post and Barber coincided (which you obviously didn't have the foresight to read before you opened your mouth) is that who knows how long it would take to obtain an ori ore with a rental bird, if it's even possible at all... therefore not only would I be out the rental fees for several days, I would be losing much profit because I would not be harvesting items obtained with my burrow/bore bird that I would usually sell for considerable gil.

Riyoga wrote:
hold off on the idea of A-5 until you really show a proof that it truly exists on every area you try and dig, and use a rental and show that you ended up digging an Ori Ore in the desert


I'm going to say it for the last time. Read the thread before you speak, digging an ori ore in the desert HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING A5. It's only been said like 6 times in the last page. Now that's what's sad about this.





Edited, Aug 23rd 2007 11:31:12pm by Tankor
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#49 Aug 23 2007 at 8:30 PM Rating: Default
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

you have always gone for the more complicated answer. now the simplest answer is not always going to be the right one however it usually is.


i am very surprised you didn't rate down barberofseville for being in the same situation. having good appear next to his name automatically and for disagreeing with your theories.

then again just because you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't out to getcha.


chocobodigging posts have always been volatile karma bomb pits. back before the nerf diggers were much more secretive didn't want to share their bounty.





Tankor wrote:

Levelling goldsmith to 100 costs a lot of gil. A bust (which at this stage of goldsmithing, is always critical bust) costs roughly 350k per synth. Do the math. That's the equivalent to losing a scorp harness or a haubergeon with every bust. How long could you withstand that pace?


i go very very slowly now. its a hobby and i don't care if it takes 5 years to get the last 5 lvls.

biggest folly for any digger is to think omg i can lvl goldsmithing.

95 +3 on my mule and that was probably one of the biggest mistakes i made since opportunity cost dictates that i would have made much more money selling mats rather than hoarding mats that i dug up.

but congratulations on being 99.9.




#50 Aug 24 2007 at 3:23 AM Rating: Decent
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How am I paranoid, and who is out to get me? Sorry, I don't follow you...

knips wrote:

chocobodigging posts have always been volatile karma bomb pits. back before the nerf diggers were much more secretive didn't want to share their bounty.


I was there for those posts. Things have changed. Digging isn't a secret anymore. My karma has been getting bashed hard in this thread, I don't care and will still post. I'm not here for karma.

Tankor wrote:

Levelling goldsmith to 100 costs a lot of gil. A bust (which at this stage of goldsmithing, is always critical bust) costs roughly 350k per synth. Do the math. That's the equivalent to losing a scorp harness or a haubergeon with every bust. How long could you withstand that pace?


knips wrote:
i go very very slowly now. its a hobby and i don't care if it takes 5 years to get the last 5 lvls.

biggest folly for any digger is to think omg i can lvl goldsmithing.

95 +3 on my mule and that was probably one of the biggest mistakes i made since opportunity cost dictates that i would have made much more money selling mats rather than hoarding mats that i dug up.


I didn't just stumble upon to levelling goldsmithing because of also possessing digging skill. I was going to be doing it anyway and digging anything of real use for it didn't come till later to be honest.

It has been 3 long years that I have been working on getting gold to 100, I certainly by no means fast tracked it. Some of those skill up stages are brutal, I'm honestly surprised I didn't give up.

On the other hand, I didn't have five more years to sink into getting one level per year. You must play differently than I, as lots of other people do.

Edited, Aug 24th 2007 7:24:58am by Tankor
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#51 Aug 24 2007 at 4:07 AM Rating: Decent
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4,126 posts
Quote:
Levelling goldsmith to 100 costs a lot of gil. A bust (which at this stage of goldsmithing, is always critical bust) costs roughly 350k per synth. Do the math. That's the equivalent to losing a scorp harness or a haubergeon with every bust. How long could you withstand that pace?


Just be happy we're in a deflation. Now I know smithing isn't quit the same in costs but I did it back when inflation was first setting in. Determination sets apart the true "rock fiends" and the wannabes.



Quote:
Secondly, it is not just the gil I would be spending to rent the bird. As I pointed out in an earlier post and Barber coincided (which you obviously didn't have the foresight to read before you opened your mouth) is that who knows how long it would take to obtain an ori ore with a rental bird, if it's even possible at all... therefore not only would I be out the rental fees for several days, I would be losing much profit because I would not be harvesting items obtained with my burrow/bore bird that I would usually sell for considerable gil.



That's part of the reason I chimed in earlier. Im A10 and use rental birds have been A10 forever. I always dig Altepa now just because I use everything. I never once seen an ori ore, thats why I said rolanberry.

Edited, Aug 24th 2007 8:09:22am by Deadonarrival
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