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I'd like some clarification about Zanshin.Follow

#1 Sep 13 2011 at 4:26 PM Rating: Good
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Please forgive me if this should be common sense, but I have several questions regarding Zanshin. For one I'd like to know how an X Hit Zanshin build works. From what I understand Zanshin gives you a chance to attack again immediately after you miss an attack, and I've read about it's effects being compared to an increase in accuracy. If that's the case I don't understand how it could lower the number of hits in an X hit build. I noticed on the ffxiah page for Jingang Greatsword someone mentioned this can be used to create a 3 hit Zanshin build which is why I ask. What does the "enhances Zanshin" effect actually do?

And on the note of "Enhances Zanshin" effect, could someone explain to me how the atma of ****'s Guardian affects zanshin? I actually got ****'s guardian a while ago but I've only ever used it on my Black Mage. I've been playing with samurai recently and I don't know if I should or shouldn't use it when I get to lvl 90. Is this a good atma to use on sam if my accuracy is already capped or almost capped? I'm just confused as to what enhances zanshin gear does in general I guess.
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#2 Sep 13 2011 at 7:33 PM Rating: Good
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Ikishoten gives a tp bonus to zanshin swings. Basically a zanshin swing can give 40 tp with the proper gear in one attack round. That's basically 2 hits for one miss. If a hasso zanshin double attack procs, you can get 60 tp in a single round instead of 40 like a normal double attack.

The atma makes zanshin proc on 100% of misses, and gives a 25% hasso zanshin double attack rate to Sam.

Edit: also I should note that hasso zanshin double attack rate caps at 25%. That rate is always you miss zanshin rate divided by 4. Hope that helps some. I'm on my phone so very tedious to type out any math regarding arms choices.

Edited, Sep 13th 2011 9:35pm by JaxReborn
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#3 Sep 13 2011 at 7:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Technically, yeah, Zanshin is an increase in overall accuracy. Particularly since that from what I've heard, the actual Zanshin swing itself has increased accuracy compared to a regular attack.

Ikishoten, a meritable job trait, allows SAM to get higher than normal TP for a successfully landed Zanshin attack. It could potentially allow you to get 100 in fewer hits, although it's certainly nothing to be relied on with 100% consistency. Just something like, *if* you get a Zanshin hit somewhere during your TP phase, your X-hit will be reduced by one.

Also, "enhances X effect" usually refers to increasing JA duration or potency/proc rate. Since this isn't a JA I'm guessing that the proc rate is affected.
If it said "augments Zanshin" instead, that means it would add a capability that Zanshin doesn't normally have by itself... like possibly an Ikishoten-like effect (just an example).

Either way, I would guess that you should probably not use ****'s Guardian on your SAM in favor of a different atma. This might change when they implement the Zanshin update that I seem to remember them blabbing about at some point, but for now I would think that Zanshin is just something that should be looked at as a bonus and not really something that you should adjust your entire build around.

Quote:
The atma makes zanshin proc on 100% of misses, and gives a 25% hasso zanshin double attack rate to Sam.


Huh, that's more potent than I would have thought o_O

Edited, Sep 13th 2011 9:38pm by Fynlar
#4 Sep 14 2011 at 12:03 AM Rating: Decent
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"Enhances Double Attack" on Brutal Earring is the same as Double Attack+5%
What does "Enhances Zanshin" equipments tell you? Yep, an increase of zanshin proc rate.

The base proc rate on SAM90 is 45%.
Unkai Sugemino has "Enhances Zanshin" effect, and for this particular item, the number is 5%. So equipping this back will increase the base zanshin of SAM90 from 45% to 50%.
Each item that has "Enhances Zanshin" have their own zanshin+%, so you may want to look at the actual number from those items.
As for 3-hit zanshin build on Jingang Greatsword: It's either I'm utterly missing something important, or that's simply a troll comment. Zanshin build is lol; Eventhough there's a charm for SAM making such build now, it is impractical to gear yourself towards this particular build. It's just a surprise bonus like double attack rather than definite DoT increase like haste.
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#5 Sep 19 2011 at 10:29 AM Rating: Default
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VZX wrote:

As for 3-hit zanshin build on Jingang Greatsword: It's either I'm utterly missing something important, or that's simply a troll comment. Zanshin build is lol; Eventhough there's a charm for SAM making such build now, it is impractical to gear yourself towards this particular build. It's just a surprise bonus like double attack rather than definite DoT increase like haste.


It's basically the whole argument of Store TP build vs a full Haste "Zanshin" build, at least from what I understand. Either you throw on a ridiculous amount of Store TP gear(like most SAMs do), and cut your swings down by 1 to get to 100TP, or you gear for Haste cap (~26%) with some Zanshin gear and do a 6-hit, with a potential 3-hit if Zanshin procs when you have Hasso up or a potential missed swing.



#6 Sep 19 2011 at 7:51 PM Rating: Good
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
Please forgive me if this should be common sense, but I have several questions regarding Zanshin. For one I'd like to know how an X Hit Zanshin build works. From what I understand Zanshin gives you a chance to attack again immediately after you miss an attack, and I've read about it's effects being compared to an increase in accuracy. If that's the case I don't understand how it could lower the number of hits in an X hit build. I noticed on the ffxiah page for Jingang Greatsword someone mentioned this can be used to create a 3 hit Zanshin build which is why I ask. What does the "enhances Zanshin" effect actually do?

And on the note of "Enhances Zanshin" effect, could someone explain to me how the atma of ****'s Guardian affects zanshin? I actually got ****'s guardian a while ago but I've only ever used it on my Black Mage. I've been playing with samurai recently and I don't know if I should or shouldn't use it when I get to lvl 90. Is this a good atma to use on sam if my accuracy is already capped or almost capped? I'm just confused as to what enhances zanshin gear does in general I guess.

As already mentioned, basically zanshin has a %(45% base)of activating on a missed swing. I dont think zanshin can trigger on a missed DA/TA attack though. If you have Ikishoten merited(+3tp per merit) each zanshin gives back more tp than a normal swing( base tp(450delay =11.5)+3 for every merit, so 5 merits would be 26.5 tp, multiply that by your total stp amount to find the final tp return per zanshin).

With the new sam update that was done not too long ago, with Hasso up, you now have a chance to swing an extra swing without having to miss and Ikishoten merits are accounted for. Your rate of new-zanshin(hasso-zanshin) is your total zanshin % divided by 4. Seigan also has this ability but instead of zanshin, you know can no counter, for the same % of your zanshin% divided by 4. So both rates cap at 25%(ie 100% zanshin).

I personally would not use an atma that had zanshin in it, unless it was just to mess around or find a fun build to have fun with. For the getting your hands dirty atmas, Apoc/RR and A/O or VV or smiting are very well needed to keep your damage constant.
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#7 Sep 30 2011 at 8:10 PM Rating: Decent
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i don't know the numbers or mechanics anymore, but note: since the beginning of time, people have wanted zanshin to be good. i suspect this is mainly because "the establishment" (ie fewer than 20 people who posted testing and damage equation stuff on the internet) said zanshin was irrelevant and gearing for it was stupidity.

people will still want the dark horse to be good. this is a warning for evaluating people's claims, particularly if their math looks hazy. that said, for all i know, the game has changed enough that there's a zanshin conversation worth having.
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#8 Oct 01 2011 at 1:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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A zanshin build now is like a double attack build, except every 4% zanshin is equal to 1% double attack with a TP boost on the added attack. I don't think you can outright dismiss zanshin gear anymore, but it needs to be weighed in a very similar manner to choosing double attack gear. Generally speaking, a Hasso Zanshin double attack is better than a regular double attack, but the Hasso one can't proc on a weapon skill. I don't know which takes priority over the other but its probably regular over hasso thus you have to think about interactions and diminishing returns.
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#9 Oct 03 2011 at 12:48 AM Rating: Decent
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well, have to look at what's contributing the most to total DoT. a double attack on a WS is nice due to WSC affecting the DA, but since fTP doesn't (haha, or "didn't") affect the DA swing, SAM DA'd WSs were historically impressive big numbers that mattered little to DoT. if the zanshin TP boost is high enough, its increase to WS frequency could offset DA's increase to dmg/WS.

that said, to be honest, unless changes like "haste caps immediately, ACC caps immediately," are occurring, along with "zanshin is happening frequently on hits that are connecting due to some mechanics change," i don't see zanshin (or DA) challenging haste and basic stats. of course, i've heard lots of weird changes did occur, so as always (shrug).
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#10 Oct 04 2011 at 7:35 AM Rating: Good
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The recent change is enough to make it a decent base-boost, but making a zanshin build is still taxing.

Ikishoten and zanshin attack rate are also becoming the better choices to merit (instead of shikikoyo, blade bash, 3rd eye recast, or meditate), but the priority among them isn't as clear-cut as choosing to merit overwhelm or STP effect.

Edited, Oct 4th 2011 1:35pm by VZX
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#11 Oct 10 2011 at 4:16 AM Rating: Good
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So can SAM/MNK make a pretty impressive counter build using Seigan/TE, Zanshin atma, RR and GH is they wanted a bit of fun? Could make some non casting NM's an easy solo ya?
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