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Next STP Trait and some other stuffFollow

#1 Jun 03 2011 at 2:41 AM Rating: Good
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SE - next weekes update wrote:
Samurai

A new job ability that readies its target for a skillchain will be added.
The effectiveness of the job trait Store TP will increase at level 90 instead of 91.

The job abilities Hasso and Seigan will be refined as follows:

Hasso

Hasso will now occasionally trigger Zanshin even after landing a normal attack.

Seigan

The likelihood that Seigan will cause Third Eye to counter an anticipated attack will be augmented with a bonus based upon the player's Zanshin attack rate.


Its really all about the STP. Will ease up gear selection slightly, and help some obtain a 5HIT who are missing selected pieces of gear.
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#2 Jun 03 2011 at 6:44 AM Rating: Excellent
*A new job ability that readies its target for a skillchain will be added.

Is this like that dancer job ability that lets you skill chain with out using an opening ws, if thats so this has potential depending on the timer.

*Hasso will now occasionally trigger Zanshin even after landing a normal attack.

Free double attack proc?

*The likelihood that Seigan will cause Third Eye to counter an anticipated attack will be augmented with a bonus based upon the player's Zanshin attack rate.

i dont really get this, this means that with that "enhances Zanshin" (the ones that makes it 100% proc)GK we will 100% counter? o.o

interesting.

and Store tp yes!!

Note: I take the advantage to introduce myself here in the Path of Bushido, hello fellow samurai, im Khayn of now Phoenix, i recently took samurai again from 75 to 90, i stopped using my samurai mainly because of the bandwagon thing years ago and focused on puppetmaster, but im re-loving the job again right now, anyways nice to meet you all!
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#3 Jun 03 2011 at 8:50 AM Rating: Good
Yeah, this will make a 5 hit much easier for me to obtain once I finish my Keito+2. This and the ninja adjustment are both very exciting.
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#4 Jun 03 2011 at 8:51 AM Rating: Good
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If Zanshin procs on a regular swing and you have Ikishoten up, that's a potential 60 TP in one attack round. Not to mention this makes AF3+2 set bonus less crappy now too. It will be interesting to see what the proc rate is, and may make Zanshin rate worth meriting, I have to think about that.
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Jacs of Leviathan
SAM, MNK, THF, NIN, SCH, DRK, BLU 90
Woodworking 100+3, Synergy 57
#5 Jun 03 2011 at 9:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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So the question is whether 5/5 Zanshin merits would give you more TP over time than 5/5 Meditate merits. Let's say a Zanshin proc with Ikishoten gives 40 Bonus TP. Also, lets say Meditate gives you 140 TP, since its very easy to get AF head and Relic hands now and we will assume that is standard gear.

Normal unmerited Meditate = 140 TP / 3 mins = 46.7 TP/min
5/5 merited Meditate = 140 TP / 2.5 mins = 56 TP/min
So you get 9.3 more TP/min with 5/5 Meditate as opposed to 0/5.

For checking the value of Zanshin merits, let's assume a 450 delay GKT and 95% hit rate. We don't know the base Zanshin proc rate on normal swings yet, so we will just call this number X. Assume 45% proc rate on misses, 50% with 5/5 Zanshin rate merits. Let's look at a "worst case" haste scenario and say you wear 0 Haste gear. This means your only haste is from Hasso. That means you swing once every 6.75 seconds = .1125 min. Assume 5-hit build and assume 4/5 Ikishoten merits (40 TP return on Zanshin swing land).

Normal unmerited Zanshin TP Rate = (20TP/0.1125min)*(0.95) + (40TP/0.1125min)*(X)*(0.95) + (40TP/0.1125min)*(0.05)*(0.45)*(0.95) = 168.9 TP/min + 337.8 TP/min*(X) + 7.6TP/min = 176.5 TP/min + 355.6 TP/min*(X)

Now with 5/5 merits the proc rate becomes X+0.05 on normal swings, and .5 on misses.

Merited Zanshin TP Rate = (20TP/0.1125min)*(0.95) + (40TP/0.1125min)*(X+0.05)*(0.95) + (40TP/0.1125min)*(0.05)*(0.5)*(0.95) = 168.9 TP/min + 337.8 TP/min*(X) + 16.9 TP/min + 8.4TP/min = 194.2 TP/min + 355.6 TP/min*(X)

Subtract the difference and you get 17.7 TP/min more with Zanshin merits. Remember, that is worst case. More haste will mean more overall Zanshin swings. So even in the worst case, it would seem that Zanshin merits will beat out Meditate hands down. The only thing we need to see is if SE makes Zanshin merits only apply to misses. If it applies to landed hits with Hasso as well, its time to roll those Meditate merits into Zanshin rate.

Edit: Fixed some numbers.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2011 12:34pm by JaxReborn
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Jacs of Leviathan
SAM, MNK, THF, NIN, SCH, DRK, BLU 90
Woodworking 100+3, Synergy 57
#6 Jun 03 2011 at 10:40 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
*Hasso will now occasionally trigger Zanshin even after landing a normal attack.

Free double attack proc?


It should be much better than a double attack proc. If you have 4/5 Ikishoten merits, you will get back 20TP on your regular swing (assuming you use 5-hit) and then 40TP on the Zanshin swing. Also, you have a chance for an AF3+2 set bonus proc on a Zanshin instead of a double attack. Furthermore, all that "Enhances Zanshin" gear like Unkai earring will need to be reconsidered. Also consider that Zanshin can't proc on a double attack, so we may need to re-evaluate some gear choices. For example, Unkai back may become preferable during TP phase to Atheling. Its going to be interesting to see how this plays out. I feel like its a bigger upgrade than it seems on the surface.
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Jacs of Leviathan
SAM, MNK, THF, NIN, SCH, DRK, BLU 90
Woodworking 100+3, Synergy 57
#7 Jun 03 2011 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
Thanks for doing the math for us Jax, that is definitely an interesting result. I hadn't thought about the full implications of this change before, but right now it sounds like it is time to switch those merits out. I won't be able to get to it for a week anyway though, so there's time for more info to roll in.
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#8 Jun 03 2011 at 7:06 PM Rating: Decent
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I like that they're attempting to make zanshin actually have a use. wonder if your zanshin+ gear will still have an effect during hasso.

as for store tp, easier 5hit for masa users. and might make 4hit more viable for Kikugosasku, but still constraining on WS gear.
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#9 Jun 03 2011 at 7:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Going to extend my analysis for a range of Haste situations. Basically I do exactly the same thing as before, just change the Haste value I used.

Haste:Gained TP/min with Zanshin Merits vs No Zanshin Merits
10%:17.7
15%:18.7
20%:20.0
25%:21.2
30%:22.8
35%:24.6
40%:26.6
45%:29.0
50%:31.9
55%:35.5
60%:39.9
65%:45.6
70%:53.2
75%:63.8
80%:79.8

So you can see, the more Haste you have the better and better Zanshin merits become. Double attack gear will kind of negate some of this, as a Zanshin cannot proc during a Double Attack, but you shouldn't be able to reach high enough values of Double Attack that Meditate merits can win out. Considering that Meditate merits gives a static maximum of 9.3TP/min more (neglecting the occasional 120 or 160 TP return), Zanshin rate merits are much much better after this update.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2011 9:23pm by JaxReborn
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Jacs of Leviathan
SAM, MNK, THF, NIN, SCH, DRK, BLU 90
Woodworking 100+3, Synergy 57
#10 Jun 03 2011 at 7:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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798 posts
Another thing I wanted to math out was just how much this update will affect out TP gain rate. Basically I want to see how the term with the X variable changes with varying X values. I am going to use a Haste value of 45% and assume this is roughly "average" conditions (Hasso, 20% from gear, spell Haste). X in this case is the base rate of Hasso Zanshin activations, ignoring the contribution of merits or other gear, and also ignoring double attack.

X:Added TP/min
0.01%:5.5
0.03%:16.6
0.05%:27.6
0.10%:55.3
0.15%:82.9
0.20%:110.5

So as the base rate of activation goes up, so does out extra TP per minute. If you can get your Hasso Zanshin rate over 18%, you basically get a whole extra WS/min. We will have to see how much SE gives us.

Note: This doesn't take into account any delay imposed from WS's.
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Jacs of Leviathan
SAM, MNK, THF, NIN, SCH, DRK, BLU 90
Woodworking 100+3, Synergy 57
#11 Jun 04 2011 at 10:25 AM Rating: Good
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Will be very interesting for Masamune SAMs. Since a 6hit is already better then a 5hit, you can lose all your stp merits with the new trait. Cap Zanshin, Ikitoshenm meditate and overwelm and you have a TP machine.

Masa/sword//threw
Zelus/unkai/unkai/brutal
juogi(+1)/dusk+1/rajas/hoard
Atheling/bullwhip/unkai+2/aces

Capped haste, sword, 6hit.

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#12 Jun 04 2011 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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Sorry, when I posted this I'd got home from a terrible night at work - I read it as 'Hasso now gives Zanshin' (yeah).

The way SE say's 'Hasso now occasionally triggers Zanshin after a normal attack' makes me wonder if the same base rate will apply, could go both ways because this could be SE's way of bringing SAM back in line and near the top (like it should be being the Japanese warrior etc) much like they did with DRK last update problem is nothing will change in jobsetups whilst inside abyssea, but abyssea isn't the future. The notes are actually very vague on hasso/seigan but quick testing will give us the numbers I guess we're now crying out for. It would make sence to keep the numbers the same otherwise Zanshin gear and merits become a little awkward unless its something like none-hasso zanshin rate/2 which is still very good.

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#13 Jun 04 2011 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
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I just can't imagine they give us a 45% base Zanshin rate on Hasso when we don't miss. Consider that without any double attacks, a 45% Haste SAM using a 450 delay GKT with a 5-hit build and 4/5 Ikishoten and 0/5 Zanshin rate will get 288.8 TP/min on average (neglecting WS delays, Conserve TP returns, etc). If you have a 45% Zanshin proc rate on your hits, you would be getting an additional 236.3 TP/min, which is coming up on doubling our TP gain rate. That would seem to be close to broken (although I wouldn't mind :D). I would guess it would be something more like 5-10% base rate, with each piece of Enhances Zanshin gear giving 1-3% more. That would already be a large upgrade in our performance.
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Jacs of Leviathan
SAM, MNK, THF, NIN, SCH, DRK, BLU 90
Woodworking 100+3, Synergy 57
#14 Jun 05 2011 at 3:17 AM Rating: Good
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Would it really be that much more borken then giving DRK 50% haste with massive attack nearly 3/4 of the time? 65% Haste if you include Haste spell which is standard for DD jobs.

It just seems like SE is happy to buff jobs in massive ways at the moment. SAM hasn't really got anything, and a masa is generally needed to compete etc. Why shouldn't we be spamming ws's similar to how we can using a PB? That is our Forte. WS delay is still there. Also, currently our WS's are still less powerful than other DD jobs except DRK who still needs some work done on their ws's. SE have said they are happy to overpower jobs atm too and the nerf bat has hardly been seen except for coding errors.

Either way, SAM won't be wanted in Abyssea because the whole system is revolved around tank, healer and procers. Saying that, once my friend got Hi instead of comming THF for TH he's been comming SAM/THF so we still have some TH (which affect on +2 items is questionable) but kill speed is much faster. I guess all will become clear in the next day or 2 ^^
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#15 Jun 05 2011 at 11:43 AM Rating: Good
Sandmasterr wrote:
I guess all will become clear in the next day or 2 ^^
I think this is the bottom line. You both make excellent points, and while I am more inclined to agree with Jax, I don't think Sand is wrong either. SE has been known to make things overpowered in the past, and SAM is overdue for some balancing to revitalize it and make it competitive again. Only time will tell what they actually have in mind for us.
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#16 Jun 05 2011 at 12:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Sandmasterr wrote:
Either way, SAM won't be wanted in Abyssea because the whole system is revolved around tank, healer and procers. Saying that, once my friend got Hi instead of comming THF for TH he's been comming SAM/THF so we still have some TH (which affect on +2 items is questionable) but kill speed is much faster. I guess all will become clear in the next day or 2 ^^

Well keep in mind Zanshin now affects Seigan's Counter too. Zanshin's effect on Hasso just sounds epically broken, but if Seigan can counter at a similar rate to how Monks are then that opens a plethora of options for you.
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#17 Jun 05 2011 at 9:49 PM Rating: Good
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[img=http://beast40.com/FFXI/SAM/samdrg.png]

[img=http://beast40.com/FFXI/SAM/samdrgmerits.png]


Had some fun tonight setting up SAM for tomorrow. If Zanshin rate stays the same /drg could be quite potent. I should be 3stp heavy after tomorrows trait update but not sure how to tweak yet. /DRK could be good too, esp on new content outside abyssea.

Ofcourse I could be totally wrong....we will find out tomorrow.
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#18 Jun 06 2011 at 4:25 AM Rating: Good
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/waiting in anticipation, htfu SE :)
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#19 Jun 06 2011 at 11:30 AM Rating: Excellent
well, acording to the patch notes, there seems to be no job update today. :/ thats weird since they said "next version update", i hope im wrong.

Edit: yeah no job update, yonin and inin still share a recast timer.

Edited, Jun 6th 2011 2:30pm by KaynofTitan
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#20 Jun 07 2011 at 2:35 AM Rating: Good
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I wonder if they just um, forgot to add the job adustments in?
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#21 Jun 07 2011 at 2:43 PM Rating: Excellent
that was indeed quite weird. there's a topic about it on the lolofficial forums i believe.
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#22 Jun 07 2011 at 7:33 PM Rating: Good
I think the title of the official thread did say something like "in the next version update". Maybe I'm misremembering, but if I'm right then that would make sense, since this wasn't technically a version update I don't think. Why they would have decided to announce it the week before maintenance when they weren't going to include them, I have no clue, but I've given up on trying to guess why SE does anything...
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#23 Jun 08 2011 at 2:26 AM Rating: Excellent
Daimakaicho, Eater of Souls wrote:
I think the title of the official thread did say something like "in the next version update". Maybe I'm misremembering, but if I'm right then that would make sense, since this wasn't technically a version update I don't think. Why they would have decided to announce it the week before maintenance when they weren't going to include them, I have no clue, but I've given up on trying to guess why SE does anything...


i know what you mean, and sadly, this was a version update, not a "Major" version update i agree.

but take a look at the original post.

Link: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/9406-June-6-2011-Version-Update

so technically, SE kind of messed up XD

so etiher this was mistakenly called a version update, or the original notes should have read "... on the next Major Version update...", either or, we are left to just wonder.
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#24 Jun 08 2011 at 2:32 AM Rating: Good
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I still think they simply forgot ; ; Probably the programmer(s) responsible for the update at SE had smoked to much [insert drug here] so they got left out. That, or the programmers were hungover from the night before and got tired halfway thro the update so they thought ***** it' we'll add the job adjustments in next time.

I speak the truth.
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#25 Jun 08 2011 at 5:34 PM Rating: Excellent
Sandmasterr wrote:
I still think they simply forgot ; ; Probably the programmer(s) responsible for the update at SE had smoked to much [insert drug here] so they got left out. That, or the programmers were hungover from the night before and got tired halfway thro the update so they thought '@#%^ it' we'll add the job adjustments in next time.

I speak the truth.


for reals. :/
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