Magian GkatsFollow

So I kinda' looked around the trials and what kind of g.kat you can get etc. None of them seems really special. I was too sleepy as hell to remember all of em but the only decent one I saw had like 79 base damage +10 more base damage (89 base damage only, no other stats). And then there was another with 65 base damage +16 more base damage(not sure) +15 attack, +4 str and another sh*tty augment. Then there's another with similar one but with dex and acc instead of str and attack.

So what do you ladies think about this? yay or nay?

Proc rate on that 2x attack is the key. Soboro, according to wiki, averages 1.9 attacks per round. This new GKT would need a 90% proc rate to match Soboro in swing rate. The extra 14 delay won't make any difference in an x-hit build and won't seriously affect tp per swing, so Soboro still looks to be king of TP gain. Maybe it will beat Soboro in a merit type setting though (?). The added damage might push it ahead, but again it is going to depend on the 2x hit proc rate.

89 dmg Radennotachi enough to de-throne the Hagun? Same delay etc.

edit: spelling is overrated..

Edited, Mar 23rd 2010 4:35pm by RotisTFL

Is there math backing up ~94-95 dmg = Hagun?

Not that I don't believe it, just would like to see the logic behind it.

I believe the amano can get +5 base damage. I'm not sure if that's the highest you can go, but It didn't show any more trials after the +5 one.

I actually forgot to take increased fSTR on WS (assuming that it's actually higher, "additional base dmg" tends to work funky) into account when I did it in excel bringing it a little lower. Math is easy though:

1000=300*((75+12)/(X+12))+700*(((75+16+92)*1.975)/((X+18+92)*1.6625))
X= 92.7 base dmg


the "18" actually changes with increasing X which I didn't account for, 18 is correct value for base dmg = 90->99


Answer doesn't change though, 89 isn't high enough.

Efunotachi DMG:81 Delay:437 VIT+4 Physical damage taken -7% doesn't appeal to anyone else for low-man tanking?

My LS has dwindled down to a small handful of members and my sam is pretty much our defacto tank and DD for everything we do. For stuff that smacks me around like a rag doll I am totally psyched that I can potentially swap into this when my ohshi* set alone isn't enough and not take a humongous hit to dps like I would be taking with iron ram lance.

I decided to take a look into this with my limited damage formula experience in FFXI, but here's what I got. Let me know if I went wrong somewhere. ^^

I wanted to compare the Radennotachi vs. Hagun 100 swings vs. 100 swings including double attack from Askar Body, Pole Grip, and Brutal Earring and WSing as soon as you get 100% (for comparisons sake.)

I used an fSTR of 16.75 (130 STR vs. a Greater Colibri) and a PDIF of 1.5 with maxed accuracy at 95%.

First Let's do WS Damage.

WS Damage = ("Effective" Base Damage + fSTR + WSC) x fTP x PDIF

WSC = Weapon Skill Conditions (75% of STR x 0.83 at lvl 75)
PDIF = Your attack / The target's Defense (Defaulted this to 1.5 which is an attack of 579.6 on 81 Colibri and 604.95 on 82 Colibri)

Radennotachi: (89 + 16.75 + 80.925 x 1.5625) x 1.5 = 437.5495 x 1.09 x 0.95 = 453.0825

Hagun: (75 + 16.75 + 80.925 x 1.875) x 1.5 = 485.6484 x 1.09 x 0.95 = 529.356

Obviously that TP bonus is just @#%^in hard to beat. Let's add in the melee hits now though. 1.5 = PDIF 1.09 = Dbl Atk 0.95 = Accuracy Cap.

Radennotachi: (89 + 14.2) x 1.5 x 1.09 x 0.95 = 160.29

Hagun: (75 + 14.2) x 1.5 x 1.09 x 0.95 = 138.55

Now, since we're calculating for 100 swings and we're assuming a 6-hit build with haste. 100 swings / 6 = 16.666 WS "rounds" per 100 swings.

In every WS round there is the WS and 5 melee hits to get you back up to 100% TP for another WS. So per WS "round":

Radennotachi: WS: 453.082 x1 Melee: 160.29 x 5 = 801.45 + 453.082 = 1254.53

Hagun: WS: 529.356 x1 Melee: 138.55 x 5 = 692.75 + 529.356 = 1195.638

In just one WS round the Radennotachi seems to come out on top. Now let's compare these with 16.666 WS rounds to equal 100 swings

Radennotachi: 1254.53 x 16.666 = 20,907.9969
Hagun: 1195.638 x 16.666 = 19,926.5029

Unless I did something wrong it's looking like this Radennotachi, while not entirely de-throning the Hagun. Is probably the first one to equal it.

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 5:10pm by Kraeia

Well thank you for persevering and holding back as much as possible.

Also thank you for showing the mistake in addition there. I realize that those numbers aren't representative of the actual damage done as I just plugged in constant numbers to compare the two weapons.

I am curious as to what you meant by bolding parts of the first quotes. As I said I'm new to this and I want to get good at it. I'm going to @#%^ up but I intend to improve. Thanks for any help that can be given.

i'm in a hurry, but quick tips: learn where things get "floored" (which for our purposes just means "drop everything to the right of the decimal point). fSTR and WSC are always integers. remember to include the pDIF (and ACC if you aren't capped to begin with) bonus on gekko (pDIF is doubled, which usually means it caps), along with overwhelm. remember that 30% melee 70% WS is a more realistic split for hagun users.

actually gekko doubles cRatio i think? or is it even Ratio? i can't remember. anyway, those are good starting things.

Thank you! I was wondering what the floor meant in the formulas. I know that in parsed instances the WS/melee ratio is much greater than my #s showed, but what I'm a little confused on is how that affects a side-by-side comparison with fixed variables. Was the 100 swing comparison I used just not a good way to go about it? :/

I didn't know anything about any PDIF increase with Tachi: Gekko but would definitely like to learn more about that. But I did use capped ACC. ^^

Even with missing flooring variables that should have been floored and increases from Tachi: Gekko. While the Hagun WS damage would be boosted more than the Radennnotachi WS dmg. Since the equations would be affected in both GK's WSs it seems like the two would still compare rather closely (assuming that there isn't something inherently wrong with this comparison scenario.)

By the way I own a Hagun and use it. And I will continue to use it, even after getting a Radennotachi to actually test it not on paper. It's a great GK and of course I endorse it. I just am always on the look out for more weapons. Hence this slightly rocky trip through the formulas, lol.

Awesome! Thanks for the info. :)

We did some testing and figured out that we can't figure it out without more better testing. lol

most likely it's:

ratio= multiplier*atk/def
cap ratio around 2.2-2.3
pDIFmax= 1.2*(ratio-lvC)
pDIFmin= 1.2*(ratio-lvC)-.8
(for cratio > 5/6, which is pretty much always)

idk where the pDIF cap also info came from, I need to test if I can break 1k w/o DA on a lv0 bunny to see if it's still true or not.
Not really, no. Aside from the actual equations being wrong, this kind of analysis disregards the effects of meditate/ikki/haste/crit/etc. Because these affect melee and WS differently it drastically changes your overall result.

for the sake of learning I'll go through the problems I bolded:
notes:
floor(X) means that you drop whatever the remainder is.
ie. floor(10*.76) = floor(7.6) = 7


16.75-> fSTR caps at base floor(dmg/9)+8, for hagun this is capped at 16

80.925-> WSC is floored twice ie. floor(.83*floor(150*.75))=floor(.83*112)=92, not 93.375

1.875-> any decent SAM uses WS gorgets raising fTP by .1

1.5-> as mentioned above, ratio is subject to a 2x multiplier for YGK making it hard not to hit caps vs pretty much anything. This is then subject to level correction so depending on the level of what you're fighting it changes a bit, but is generally much higher.

1.09-> DA'd hits don't get fTP mods making the value of DA on WS lower.

529.356-> is an abysmal hagun WS avg, this should have been your first clue things were wrong.


14.2-> should be floored, 14 is a ridiculously high number for melee fSTR, I get crap about using my fSTR of 12 occasionally and I'm a Elvaan with STR merits and atk/STR food. ~10 is closer to normal for most people.

1.5-> is ridiculously high for melee pDIF as it doesn't get said YGK multipliers, the only way you're getting up there is with a COR, and if your COR is giving you chaos roll while you're using a GK you need to smack him b/c it's doing nothing for your WS which make up the majority of your dmg.

1.09-> this is the right dmg multiplier for melee DA, but it also increases the number of WS you do, so it shouldn't be included or should be accounted for in WSfreq.

0.95-> This number isn't true for most people vs anything worthwhile, due to zanshin it's even further off, due to ikki WS freq is off.
That's all I can ask for. Trust me, I'd rather have people with numbers to back up their arguments than idiots like CBO and Deboro who just go on what they "feel" or competitive parses.
You have a very limited ability to grow via base dmg. Your best bet is actually to go with the OAT version assuming they don't gimp the proc.
If you put the same amount of effort into getting hagun as working on current final form magi GK you'd have half a dozen and be able to sell them and improve gear in other ways. If you spend the time now and a better different path/weapon etc comes up you've basically just wasted a huge chunk of your time on speculation.
Most of them suck though, lol.



On the topic of "hagun killers" the only one I'm really looking forward to is a fairly easy to obtain Nanatsusaya.

Edited, Mar 26th 2010 1:12pm by shintasama

Edited, Mar 26th 2010 1:12pm by shintasama

Shinta, Long DRK post with lots of swearing

Lots of interesting math thrown around, kinda hard to glean a solid answer from it because too many unknown variables where in there for the Kirin numbers.

My concern was for the order and where the caps were at. We don't know everything exactly but there is enough info to get a general model of how things work. For SAM the second 2.2 cap after our WS bonus is applied is important because it highlights how attack is sometimes needed for Y/G/K dealing damage on really big things.

Kirin is lv 92, 92-75 = 17 * .05 = 0.85 hit as LCF making 1.35 the highest you can get for prior to WS bonus. At Kirin's 400 defense it would require 880 attack to hit the first 2.2 cap. SAM's rarely get that much attack, usually we only have one BRD if they and their with the SMNs / BLMs or with the PLD's. A SAM/THF could have 480~500 attack without food. 500/400 = 1.25 (under 2.2 cap) - 0.85 = 0.4 then apply WS bonus (x2.0) for 0.8, critical hits are 1.8 (forced SA). This is of course near absolute worse case scenario, adding some food for ~70 attack (just pulled it out my a$$) would produce a result of..

570/400 = 1.42 - 0.85 = 0.57 * 2 = 1.15, SAing being 2.15
1.15/0.8 = 1.43 or a 43% increase in cRatio from just 70 attack.

The reason I eat meat on kirin, even if my acc ends up sucking. Makes me want to rethink going /WAR, but the LS leader is kinda anal about /THF and TAing tanks on lessors / when we straight tank Kirin. We use a hybrid strategy of straight tanking Kirin until he fcks up our group then kiting him while people raise / get more MP, then resuming straight tanking him. We do 2~3 Kirins at once so burning isn't an option.

Maybe next time I'll convince our leader to drop a BRD or COR into the melee party and see what it does on our fight times.

Did read over it, much of your math is just a jumble of numbers and parentheses without noting what you did where. Makes it nearly impossible to follow properly. No matter the fact that people forget to mention where their apply which cap. Also there was no definite conclusion to that thread, it boiled down with people trying to compare damage on a Kirin fight to what should be there. Except Kirin is a lv 92 monster and its nearly impossible to control all the variables, things like "I try to get overwhelm on all WS" means your not sure that its always applied. Makes correcting for that 19% a b!tch to do. TP wasn't always at 100, sekkanoki was used (overwhelm doesn't stack with sekkanoki) and what not. Its why Kirin numbers are unreliable at best and misleading at worst.

So tell me then, where exactly would you apply the 2.0 bonus, and is it indeed 2.0 know that we know the original formula used to figure it out wasn't entirely correct. Is it after the initial attack/defense but before the first 2.2 cap? Is it after the initial cap but before critical? Or is it after everything else? Because its assumed to be such a large bonus, exactly where its placed can determine what number pops out at the end.

What about using the OAT weapon with Rana (since muli-hit WS can DA the first 2 hits)? Obviously, your WS gear set would be more similar to a Warrior's Kings Justice; but taking the DA 40% into account might make it more viable.

Which isn't shocking, because that's how all OAT and OAxT weapons work.