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#1 Mar 23 2010 at 8:35 AM Rating: Decent
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So I kinda' looked around the trials and what kind of g.kat you can get etc. None of them seems really special. I was too sleepy as **** to remember all of em but the only decent one I saw had like 79 base damage +10 more base damage (89 base damage only, no other stats). And then there was another with 65 base damage +16 more base damage(not sure) +15 attack, +4 str and another ****** augment. Then there's another with similar one but with dex and acc instead of str and attack.

So what do you ladies think about this? yay or nay?

#2 Mar 23 2010 at 10:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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From BG:

Great Katana
Path: 644 > 645 > 646 > 652 > 653 > 654
Reward: Kurodachi: DMG:40 Delay:444 DMG+28 Delay+20 Occasionally attacks twice.

Does this have any potential of being a contender for GKs?
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#3 Mar 23 2010 at 11:36 AM Rating: Good
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Proc rate on that 2x attack is the key. Soboro, according to wiki, averages 1.9 attacks per round. This new GKT would need a 90% proc rate to match Soboro in swing rate. The extra 14 delay won't make any difference in an x-hit build and won't seriously affect tp per swing, so Soboro still looks to be king of TP gain. Maybe it will beat Soboro in a merit type setting though (?). The added damage might push it ahead, but again it is going to depend on the 2x hit proc rate.
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#4 Mar 23 2010 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
"occasionally attacks twice" is usually 45-55% activation, working on that assumption:


soboro:
tp/hit: 11.5
sTP/6hit: 46
base DPS: 10.13
adjusted DPS (12 fSTR): 13.17
WS freq: 3.04/min (no haste/medi)
WS base dmg: 144


kurodachi:
tp/hit: 12.2
sTP/6hit: 37
base DPS: 13.19 (50% DA)
adjusted DPS (12 fSTR): 15.52
WS freq: 2.33/min (no haste/medi)
WS base dmg: 172 (assuming fSTR capped by non additive weapon base dmg)


Kuro/soboro: (15.52/13.17)*300+(172/144)*(2.33/3.04)*700 = 994.4/1000= .9944


So they're nearly identical comparing dmg vs delay vs #hits, however, Kurodachi saves you some sTP, meaning a lot of players could free up a slot for haste/DA/etc. Including medi also works in Kurodachi's favor, and DA (while less effective for either) takes a smaller hit for Kurodachi. Not bad, maybe I shouldn't be so unimpressed with this update after all.

Jax wrote:
The extra 14 delay won't make any difference in an x-hit build and won't seriously affect tp per swing,
It actually does quite a bit, and since people are going to ask: 64sTP for a 5-hit. This in one of the few GK cases I can think of where it might be viable after they raise cap to 90+ and we get sTP V.

Edited, Mar 23rd 2010 2:37pm by shintasama
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#5 Mar 23 2010 at 2:33 PM Rating: Decent
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89 dmg Radennotachi enough to de-throne the Hagun? Same delay etc.

edit: spelling is overrated..

Edited, Mar 23rd 2010 4:35pm by RotisTFL
#6 Mar 23 2010 at 2:56 PM Rating: Decent
RotisTFL wrote:
89 dmg Radennotachi enough to de-throne the Hagun? Same delay etc.
It would have to be ~94-95 to be equal, so no.
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Winston Churchill wrote:
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#7 Mar 23 2010 at 4:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Is there math backing up ~94-95 dmg = Hagun?

Not that I don't believe it, just would like to see the logic behind it.
#8 Mar 23 2010 at 5:03 PM Rating: Default
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hows the amano upgrades look in magians?
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#9 Mar 23 2010 at 9:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I believe the amano can get +5 base damage. I'm not sure if that's the highest you can go, but It didn't show any more trials after the +5 one.
#10 Mar 24 2010 at 12:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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SirMcclane wrote:
Is there math backing up ~94-95 dmg = Hagun?

Not that I don't believe it, just would like to see the logic behind it.


it's based on how much you'd need to increase both melee and WS damage to match hagun's WS bonus. it's easy to quantify both, because you can see what a % increase in base damage does to melee and WS, and you can see how much adding 100% TP's worth of fTP improves WS damage.

neither of these are influenced by ATT or ACC, because the whole equation basically amounts to base damage multiplied by what ATT does multiplied by what ACC does. that being the case, raising base damage by, say, 10%, will raise your total damage by 10%.

(it's a little more "complicated"/detailed in that WS mods add to base damage, but the math shinta has in mind does take that into account)

edit: trivial typo

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 3:12pm by milich
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#11 Mar 24 2010 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
I actually forgot to take increased fSTR on WS (assuming that it's actually higher, "additional base dmg" tends to work funky) into account when I did it in excel bringing it a little lower. Math is easy though:

1000=300*((75+12)/(X+12))+700*(((75+16+92)*1.975)/((X+18+92)*1.6625))
X= 92.7 base dmg


the "18" actually changes with increasing X which I didn't account for, 18 is correct value for base dmg = 90->99


Answer doesn't change though, 89 isn't high enough.
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#12 Mar 24 2010 at 1:11 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I actually forgot to take increased fSTR on WS (assuming that it's actually higher, "additional base dmg" tends to work funky) into account when I did it in excel bringing it a little lower. Math is easy though:

1000=300*((75+12)/(X+12))+700*(((75+16+92)*1.975)/((X+18+92)*1.6625))
X= 92.7 base dmg

the "18" actually changes with increasing X which I didn't account for, 18 is correct value for base dmg = 90->99

Answer doesn't change though, 89 isn't high enough.


Are these calculations merely on the WS damage or overall DoT? If it's just WS, then I would imagine this would end up shifting slightly in favor of the higher base damage GK.

Also, how would repeated use of JAs like sekkanoki (hagun doesn't get bonus) or runover tp beyond 100% factor in?
#13 Mar 24 2010 at 1:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Efunotachi DMG:81 Delay:437 VIT+4 Physical damage taken -7% doesn't appeal to anyone else for low-man tanking?

My LS has dwindled down to a small handful of members and my sam is pretty much our defacto tank and DD for everything we do. For stuff that smacks me around like a rag doll I am totally psyched that I can potentially swap into this when my ohshi* set alone isn't enough and not take a humongous hit to dps like I would be taking with iron ram lance.
#14 Mar 24 2010 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
darnimsexy wrote:
Quote:
I actually forgot to take increased fSTR on WS (assuming that it's actually higher, "additional base dmg" tends to work funky) into account when I did it in excel bringing it a little lower. Math is easy though:

1000=300*((75+12)/(X+12))+700*(((75+16+92)*1.975)/((X+18+92)*1.6625))
X= 92.7 base dmg

the "18" actually changes with increasing X which I didn't account for, 18 is correct value for base dmg = 90->99

Answer doesn't change though, 89 isn't high enough.


Are these calculations merely on the WS damage or overall DoT? If it's just WS, then I would imagine this would end up shifting slightly in favor of the higher base damage GK.

Also, how would repeated use of JAs like sekkanoki (hagun doesn't get bonus) or runover tp beyond 100% factor in?
It's including melee and WS. It does not include Sekka (I try not to use sekka except when I have a long period of walking between fights, impact is generally negligible). Excess/runover (>100%+) tp is better for hagun (2.6-1.975 > 1.975-1.6625).

Quote:
Efunotachi DMG:81 Delay:437 VIT+4 Physical damage taken -7% doesn't appeal to anyone else for low-man tanking?
That is pretty nice. A bit rough on 6-hit, and still a big DoT hit, but nice none the less.
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Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#15 Mar 24 2010 at 4:48 PM Rating: Good
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I decided to take a look into this with my limited damage formula experience in FFXI, but here's what I got. Let me know if I went wrong somewhere. ^^

I wanted to compare the Radennotachi vs. Hagun 100 swings vs. 100 swings including double attack from Askar Body, Pole Grip, and Brutal Earring and WSing as soon as you get 100% (for comparisons sake.)

I used an fSTR of 16.75 (130 STR vs. a Greater Colibri) and a PDIF of 1.5 with maxed accuracy at 95%.

First Let's do WS Damage.

WS Damage = ("Effective" Base Damage + fSTR + WSC) x fTP x PDIF

WSC = Weapon Skill Conditions (75% of STR x 0.83 at lvl 75)
PDIF = Your attack / The target's Defense (Defaulted this to 1.5 which is an attack of 579.6 on 81 Colibri and 604.95 on 82 Colibri)

Radennotachi: (89 + 16.75 + 80.925 x 1.5625) x 1.5 = 437.5495 x 1.09 x 0.95 = 453.0825

Hagun: (75 + 16.75 + 80.925 x 1.875) x 1.5 = 485.6484 x 1.09 x 0.95 = 529.356

Obviously that TP bonus is just @#%^in hard to beat. Let's add in the melee hits now though. 1.5 = PDIF 1.09 = Dbl Atk 0.95 = Accuracy Cap.

Radennotachi: (89 + 14.2) x 1.5 x 1.09 x 0.95 = 160.29

Hagun: (75 + 14.2) x 1.5 x 1.09 x 0.95 = 138.55

Now, since we're calculating for 100 swings and we're assuming a 6-hit build with haste. 100 swings / 6 = 16.666 WS "rounds" per 100 swings.

In every WS round there is the WS and 5 melee hits to get you back up to 100% TP for another WS. So per WS "round":

Radennotachi: WS: 453.082 x1 Melee: 160.29 x 5 = 801.45 + 453.082 = 1254.53

Hagun: WS: 529.356 x1 Melee: 138.55 x 5 = 692.75 + 529.356 = 1195.638

In just one WS round the Radennotachi seems to come out on top. Now let's compare these with 16.666 WS rounds to equal 100 swings

Radennotachi: 1254.53 x 16.666 = 20,907.9969
Hagun: 1195.638 x 16.666 = 19,926.5029

Unless I did something wrong it's looking like this Radennotachi, while not entirely de-throning the Hagun. Is probably the first one to equal it.

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 5:10pm by Kraeia
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#16 Mar 24 2010 at 10:51 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
I decided to take a look into this with my limited damage formula experience in FFXI, but here's what I got. Let me know if I went wrong somewhere.
I want to be nice, I really do, but the mind numbing seasonal insomia and 60hr work weeks this month are telling me to go out and drown puppies. Consider this my sincerestish pre-apology, and trust me, I'm trying my best to hold back.




Quote:
Hagun: (75 + 16.75 + 80.925 x 1.875) x 1.5 = 485.6484 x 1.09 x 0.95 = 529.356

*sigh*
Quote:
Hagun: WS: 529.356 x1 Melee: 138.55 x 5 = 692.75 + 529.356 = 1195.638 1222.106

692.75/1222.106= 56.7% of hagun dmg is melee <- rofl


yeah, I totally don't see how there could be any inaccuracy here at all that would possibly skew the data away from the GK that produces higher WS dmg.

none at all

/nod/nod


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Edited, Mar 25th 2010 12:52am by shintasama
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#17 Mar 25 2010 at 12:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Well thank you for persevering and holding back as much as possible.

Also thank you for showing the mistake in addition there. I realize that those numbers aren't representative of the actual damage done as I just plugged in constant numbers to compare the two weapons.

I am curious as to what you meant by bolding parts of the first quotes. As I said I'm new to this and I want to get good at it. I'm going to **** up but I intend to improve. Thanks for any help that can be given.
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#19 Mar 25 2010 at 5:06 AM Rating: Good
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I don't believe Hagun is obsolete, and I think that its too soon to say that it is in the first place. Considering that SE said we would be able to eventually upgrade current weapons and armor. There's still a possibility in the future that additional Magian updates allow us to finally add specific, worthwhile augments, on regular gear like Haubergeon, or weapons like Hagun. Nothing is certain, and we **** well learned that when SE said they were going to raise the level cap after years of saying they weren't.

Edited, Mar 25th 2010 7:09am by Metakaiser
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#20 Mar 25 2010 at 9:51 AM Rating: Good
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Kraeia wrote:
I decided to take a look into this with my limited damage formula experience in FFXI, but here's what I got. Let me know if I went wrong somewhere. ^^

I wanted to compare the Radennotachi vs. Hagun 100 swings vs. 100 swings including double attack from Askar Body, Pole Grip, and Brutal Earring and WSing as soon as you get 100% (for comparisons sake.)

I used an fSTR of 16.75 (130 STR vs. a Greater Colibri) and a PDIF of 1.5 with maxed accuracy at 95%.

First Let's do WS Damage.

WS Damage = ("Effective" Base Damage + fSTR + WSC) x fTP x PDIF

WSC = Weapon Skill Conditions (75% of STR x 0.83 at lvl 75)
PDIF = Your attack / The target's Defense (Defaulted this to 1.5 which is an attack of 579.6 on 81 Colibri and 604.95 on 82 Colibri)

Radennotachi: (89 + 16.75 + 80.925 x 1.5625) x 1.5 = 437.5495 x 1.09 x 0.95 = 453.0825

Hagun: (75 + 16.75 + 80.925 x 1.875) x 1.5 = 485.6484 x 1.09 x 0.95 = 529.356

Obviously that TP bonus is just @#%^in hard to beat. Let's add in the melee hits now though. 1.5 = PDIF 1.09 = Dbl Atk 0.95 = Accuracy Cap.

Radennotachi: (89 + 14.2) x 1.5 x 1.09 x 0.95 = 160.29

Hagun: (75 + 14.2) x 1.5 x 1.09 x 0.95 = 138.55

Now, since we're calculating for 100 swings and we're assuming a 6-hit build with haste. 100 swings / 6 = 16.666 WS "rounds" per 100 swings.

In every WS round there is the WS and 5 melee hits to get you back up to 100% TP for another WS. So per WS "round":

Radennotachi: WS: 453.082 x1 Melee: 160.29 x 5 = 801.45 + 453.082 = 1254.53

Hagun: WS: 529.356 x1 Melee: 138.55 x 5 = 692.75 + 529.356 = 1195.638

In just one WS round the Radennotachi seems to come out on top. Now let's compare these with 16.666 WS rounds to equal 100 swings

Radennotachi: 1254.53 x 16.666 = 20,907.9969
Hagun: 1195.638 x 16.666 = 19,926.5029

Unless I did something wrong it's looking like this Radennotachi, while not entirely de-throning the Hagun. Is probably the first one to equal it.

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 5:10pm by Kraeia


i'm in a hurry, but quick tips: learn where things get "floored" (which for our purposes just means "drop everything to the right of the decimal point). fSTR and WSC are always integers. remember to include the pDIF (and ACC if you aren't capped to begin with) bonus on gekko (pDIF is doubled, which usually means it caps), along with overwhelm. remember that 30% melee 70% WS is a more realistic split for hagun users.

actually gekko doubles cRatio i think? or is it even Ratio? i can't remember. anyway, those are good starting things.
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#21 Mar 25 2010 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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Everyone says hagun is obsolete now, when the level cap is getting raised incredibly slowly. I sure as **** am not going to be trying to level with my Polearm on Greater Colibri from 75-80 when they raise the cap, and i also enjoy the ability to not suck before the cap gets raised.

Sell your Hagunz! There might be a better weapon in 2011!
#23 Mar 25 2010 at 8:46 PM Rating: Good
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milich wrote:

i'm in a hurry, but quick tips: learn where things get "floored" (which for our purposes just means "drop everything to the right of the decimal point). fSTR and WSC are always integers. remember to include the pDIF (and ACC if you aren't capped to begin with) bonus on gekko (pDIF is doubled, which usually means it caps), along with overwhelm. remember that 30% melee 70% WS is a more realistic split for hagun users.

actually gekko doubles cRatio i think? or is it even Ratio? i can't remember. anyway, those are good starting things.


Thank you! I was wondering what the floor meant in the formulas. I know that in parsed instances the WS/melee ratio is much greater than my #s showed, but what I'm a little confused on is how that affects a side-by-side comparison with fixed variables. Was the 100 swing comparison I used just not a good way to go about it? :/

I didn't know anything about any PDIF increase with Tachi: Gekko but would definitely like to learn more about that. But I did use capped ACC. ^^

Even with missing flooring variables that should have been floored and increases from Tachi: Gekko. While the Hagun WS damage would be boosted more than the Radennnotachi WS dmg. Since the equations would be affected in both GK's WSs it seems like the two would still compare rather closely (assuming that there isn't something inherently wrong with this comparison scenario.)

By the way I own a Hagun and use it. And I will continue to use it, even after getting a Radennotachi to actually test it not on paper. It's a great GK and of course I endorse it. I just am always on the look out for more weapons. Hence this slightly rocky trip through the formulas, lol.
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#24 Mar 26 2010 at 5:22 AM Rating: Decent
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I believe the DRK's did some testing awhile back to figure out the order cRatio and pDiff is capped. Turns out it is capped twice (from what I can understand).

Attack/Defense -> 2.2 Cap -> LCF applied -> cRatio bonus applied (for WS) -> 2.2 Cap (3.0 if Crit) -> * 1.05 random bonus (produces 3.15 crit on a lv 1 bunny).

Things to take away from this are,

#1 No amount of attack can counter the monsters level penalty as the LCF is applied after the first 2.2 cap is applied.

#2 cRatio bonus's can overcome LCF but are capped again on regular WS.

#3 Sneak Attack (forced crit) will ~always~ produce at least 36% more damage on WS, but before Overwhelm is counted. Critical hits can overcome LCF even at max attack because their applied after the first 2.2 cap.
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#25 Mar 26 2010 at 5:33 AM Rating: Good
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Awesome! Thanks for the info. :)
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#26 Mar 26 2010 at 11:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kraeia wrote:
milich wrote:

i'm in a hurry, but quick tips: learn where things get "floored" (which for our purposes just means "drop everything to the right of the decimal point). fSTR and WSC are always integers. remember to include the pDIF (and ACC if you aren't capped to begin with) bonus on gekko (pDIF is doubled, which usually means it caps), along with overwhelm. remember that 30% melee 70% WS is a more realistic split for hagun users.

actually gekko doubles cRatio i think? or is it even Ratio? i can't remember. anyway, those are good starting things.


Thank you! I was wondering what the floor meant in the formulas. I know that in parsed instances the WS/melee ratio is much greater than my #s showed, but what I'm a little confused on is how that affects a side-by-side comparison with fixed variables. Was the 100 swing comparison I used just not a good way to go about it? :/

I didn't know anything about any PDIF increase with Tachi: Gekko but would definitely like to learn more about that. But I did use capped ACC. ^^

Even with missing flooring variables that should have been floored and increases from Tachi: Gekko. While the Hagun WS damage would be boosted more than the Radennnotachi WS dmg. Since the equations would be affected in both GK's WSs it seems like the two would still compare rather closely (assuming that there isn't something inherently wrong with this comparison scenario.)

By the way I own a Hagun and use it. And I will continue to use it, even after getting a Radennotachi to actually test it not on paper. It's a great GK and of course I endorse it. I just am always on the look out for more weapons. Hence this slightly rocky trip through the formulas, lol.


what you're not seeing is the big picture as to why hagun is good (or at least you're not applying that knowledge to the comparison).

when comparing total damage and incorporating things like an increase in WS damage, it's important to note what % of your damage comes from melee, and what comes from WS.

notice:

hagun
a) does LOWER melee damage than raden
b) does HIGHER WS damage than raden
c) does an EQUAL AMOUNT of WS as raden

because of this, if you skimp on WS damage for both, you FAVOR raden. it's not going to affect both equally, because (a) through (c) necessitates that hagun's WS portion is a larger % of it's total damage. to illustrate with numbers, it's like this:

say the bonus adds 50% damage to your WS. to see what that does total, it would look something like this:

hagun
melee: 30
WS: 70*1.5 = 105
total: 135

raden
melee: 45
WS: 55*1.5 = 82.5
total: 123.75

notice, a 50% WS increase bumped hagun up by 35%, but the other by only 23.75%.

---

hagun is good because:

1) y/g/k's fTP goes up strikingly with TP, and the mod is large.
2) there's a huge pDIF bonus on gekko (and a smaller one on each of the other 2)
3) sTP skews SAM damage toward WS
4) y/g/k's large WSC and auto-ACC capping (+generally high pDIF) make fTP easily the most effective way to raise WS damage, since base damage, pDIF, and accuracy are already high


if you fail to represent any of those in a comparison where something is "close" to hagun, hagun is clearly better than the competitor.

hagun could be dethroned in this update (i haven't checked much), but you need to use accurate math to show it. always account for melee:WS split, realistic bonuses, etc.

Edited, Mar 26th 2010 1:02pm by milich
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