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Why do you have to tell people these things...Follow

#27 Mar 16 2010 at 6:12 PM Rating: Decent
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The problem with non A rank weapons and accuracy is that after 60 the difference between them gets bigger and bigger. Prior to 6 its 3 points per level, after 60 its 6 points per level. The game is balanced at 75 through gear and the fact we seem to prefer fighting weak-a$$ birds. But I can almost guarantee SE won't be creating another series of monsters higher up that are as weak as colibri, possibly something with low def/evd but some sort of nasty attack to counter it. The difference between A and B at 99 is over 60 points. B- has it even worse.
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when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#28 Mar 16 2010 at 11:45 PM Rating: Default
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iknoweverything wrote:
melee acc 55.26% with 50+ acc in gear...

looks like he was skilling up and using IR lance because its the cheapest polearm on the AH.


You say that as if an Engetsuto is expensive >.>
#29 Mar 17 2010 at 2:15 AM Rating: Good
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Working backwards (and assuming he wasn't using food):

He's 40% below cap, so 80 acc below ~400, or about 320.

He has 49 acc in gear (assuming Headlong Belt since no Rajas), so 271 base.

Assuming human (race not specified) gives 69+12 dex, for +60 acc. Now down to 211 base.

211 base acc would be ~212 skill. 212 skill is cap for level 66. Yay.


Here, have a happy sam/drg parse (with recent gear revisions I reached a true 5-hit, and wanted to play around with it; no polearm merits), along with my own encounter with pain (osode/relic pants mnk):

Melee Damage 
Player            Melee Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss   M.Acc %  M.Low/Hi    M.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit% 
*mnk/nin              23425   75.69 %    354/235   60.10 %     21/82    57.68     55    83/144  112.33   15.54 % 
Motenten              28280   33.09 %     231/16   93.52 %    55/155   112.73     22   166/270  214.55    9.52 % 
 
Weaponskill Damage 
Player                 WSkill Dmg   WSkill %  Hit/Miss   WS.Acc %   WS.Low/Hi   WS.Avg 
*mnk/nin                     7419    23.97 %      16/0   100.00 %     229/683   463.69 
 - Asuran Fists              2867    38.64 %       7/0   100.00 %     229/636   409.57 
 - Howling Fist              4552    61.36 %       9/0   100.00 %     294/683   505.78 
Motenten                    51738    60.54 %      71/0   100.00 %     90/1014   728.70 
 - Penta Thrust             51738   100.00 %      71/0   100.00 %     90/1014   728.70 




@BiggHowie's gear:

TP gear is:

tomoe/pole/x/tiphia
askar/PCA/minuet/brutal
askar/dusk/iota/rajas
cuch/swift/byakko/usu

Acc:
Assuming no merits
236 @skill
5+2+10+3+3+5+4+7=39
dex @hume sam/war=68
+4+3+5+4+15=99 == 74 acc
Total: 349

Crab sushi: +13% = +45
Total: 394

Hit rate = 93%/88%

Store TP: 25+10+5+1+5+7 = 53 == 19.8 TP/hit

Sufficient for fake 5-hit. 5-hit lost on any Feather Tickle.

DA rate: 10% + 5% + 2% + 2% = 19%

Vs 81s:
Hits per round:
.81 * 93% + (.81 * 7% * 45% * 95%) = 0.77753925
2 * .19 * 93% = 0.3534
Total: 1.13093925 hits / round


Vs 82s:
Hits per round:
.81 * 88% + (.81 * 12% * 45% * 95%) = 0.754353
2 * .19 * 88% = 0.3344
Total: 1.088753 hits / round


Avg hits per round: 1.1098



Replace pole + askar with rose + hauby+1:


Acc:
Assuming no merits
236 @skill
5+2+10+3+3+5+4+7+12=51
dex @hume sam/war=68
+4+3+5+4+15+6=105 == 78 acc
Total: 365

Crab sushi: +13% = +47
Total: 412

In excess by 5. Swap PCA to CC to keep same total Store TP and gain 3 str.

Hit rate = 95%/95%

Store TP: 25+10+4+1+1+5+7 = 53 == 19.8 TP/hit

Sufficient for fake 5-hit. 5-hit lost on any Feather Tickle.

DA rate: 10% + 5% = 15%

Vs 81s & 82s:
Hits per round:
.85 * 95% + (.85 * 5% * 45% * 95%) = 0.82566875
2 * .15 * 95% = 0.285
Total: 1.1107 hits / round


Edit: Made a mistake and forgot one of the Zanshin factors. Hauby is ahead by 0.08% (ie: essentially tied).


Given a 33/67 melee/weaponskill split, the extra 4 str gains about 0.6% total damage. Swapping Cuch for Foragers instead of PCC for CC ends up with Hauby build being about 1.5% ahead.

Using Pole Grip with Hauby instead of Rose Grip means you need 5/5 hits from Penta to keep fake 5-hit. The instances where those miss will almost certainly end up with it being worse overall than Rose Grip.


Edited, Mar 17th 2010 3:58am by Kinematics
#30 Mar 17 2010 at 11:17 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
You say that as if an Engetsuto is expensive >.>


engetsuto isnt "expensive", but it does cost over 10x as much as an iron ram lance. in addition to the price, IR lance has the lowest delay of all polearms, making it THE best polearm with which to skill up (assuming no love halberd). it also has a nifty -10% dmg taken which really helps when trying to skill up a weapon solo.

should he have been skilling up while partying? no. was he? yes. im quite amazed no one picked up on that. its pretty obvious, at least to me, what he was doing.

laughing about someone's dmg output and weaponskill dmg while they are skilling up is just sad. what's next, pics of people in campaign so everyone can laugh at the whm meleeing?
#31 Mar 17 2010 at 11:36 AM Rating: Decent
saevellakshmi wrote:
The problem with non A rank weapons and accuracy is that after 60 the difference between them gets bigger and bigger. Prior to 6 its 3 points per level, after 60 its 6 points per level. The game is balanced at 75 through gear and the fact we seem to prefer fighting weak-a$$ birds. But I can almost guarantee SE won't be creating another series of monsters higher up that are as weak as colibri, possibly something with low def/evd but some sort of nasty attack to counter it. The difference between A and B at 99 is over 60 points. B- has it even worse.
Based on most recent growth rate, @99 GK & Pole should be 79 skill apart (~35.5% acc, currently 36 skill/16%acc), whether that's a impossible to make up for difference or not is up to devs. +Acc might be completely worthless for A+ weapons at 99, making B- reasonable/attractive to use, or they could just completely change the rate of skill gain for the next 24 levels.
[quote]laughing about someone's dmg output and weaponskill dmg while they are skilling up is just ******************* over 5 other people doing something that he should take care of on his own time is whats sad.

Edited, Mar 17th 2010 1:39pm by shintasama
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#32 Mar 17 2010 at 12:15 PM Rating: Default
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Professor shintasama wrote:
@#%^ing over 5 other people doing something that he should take care of on his own time is whats sad.


^ This. I also can't understand why it's so difficult for people to join/create skill up parties every once in a while to offset the gimping that is level sync.

About engetsuto, on my server, it's 100k. Iron Ram Lance is 20k. 5x the price for 15 more DMG is well worth the 80k. Anyone who knows ANYTHING about melee should be able to tell that +15 DMG will make a drastic improvement on their output. Anyone who can't tell what's going on w/ that, has no business meleeing.
#33 Mar 17 2010 at 4:58 PM Rating: Default
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5x the price for 15 more DMG is well worth the 80k.


5x the price for 115 more delay doesnt make sense to anyone trying to skill up. i agree that engetsuto is a better polearm and does more dmg, but that wasn't what this guy was trying to accomplish with his gear set. he was trying to get skillups, plain and simple.

they should have just kicked him out of the party or told him to use a gkatana but instead bsphil decided to make a blanket statement about any sam using a polearm and everyone immediately jumped to "omg what a noob! look at those enkidu hands, this guy is an idiot! lol at his penta thrust, thats just pathetic"

what gear do you use to skill up? how high are your weaponskills while you are doing it?


btw on my server IRlance is 15-20k while engetsuto is 180-200k.
#34 Mar 17 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Good
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iknoweverything wrote:
they should have just kicked him out of the party or told him to use a gkatana but instead bsphil decided to make a blanket statement about any sam using a polearm


I think bsphil's "why can't we keep this a secret" comment means that SAMs with polearms are fantastic, but when noob-faces hear about it they miss the point, and look like idiots by not gearing properly for it.

Kind of like when you used to see WARs with a joytoy offhand, but rocking STR gear.
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#35 Mar 17 2010 at 8:53 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I think bsphil's "why can't we keep this a secret" comment means that SAMs with polearms are fantastic, but when noob-faces hear about it they miss the point, and look like idiots by not gearing properly for it.


but thats just it, he wasnt gearing properly for a polearm build because he was gearing for skilling up. think of it this way: once he gets his polearm capped he would probably wear appropriate gear, but until then acc all the way.
#36 Mar 18 2010 at 1:17 AM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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If you're skilling up a weapon in a merit party, get the fuck out, you don't belong there.

No excuses.



Edited, Mar 18th 2010 2:17am by bsphil
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#37 Mar 18 2010 at 5:24 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Based on most recent growth rate, @99 GK & Pole should be 79 skill apart (~35.5% acc, currently 36 skill/16%acc), whether that's a impossible to make up for difference or not is up to devs. +Acc might be completely worthless for A+ weapons at 99, making B- reasonable/attractive to use, or they could just completely change the rate of skill gain for the next 24 levels

And /WAR will get aggressor, should soften a bit more the impact of the skill difference at that level when using PLM. Of course, there's always the possibility that GKT will get a WS so über that SAMs won't use PLM anymore tho.
#38 Mar 18 2010 at 7:14 AM Rating: Decent
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1,067 posts
Quote:
If you're skilling up a weapon in a merit party, get the @#%^ out, you don't belong there.

No excuses.


it didnt bother you then, but bothers you now?

i completely agree with what you are saying, but you are telling the wrong people. you should have told that to him instead of trying to make him the posterchild of polearm-sam-doinitrong. imo, if you don't tell him to straighten up, you are just as guilty as he is. you knew what was going on and you let it happen.

if you party with a guy who is trying to make a polearm build work, yet failing miserably, i'm totally for laughing at his gimp ***. until then, this guy and his gear seem irrelevant.

Edited, Mar 18th 2010 8:21am by iknoweverything
#39 Mar 18 2010 at 10:17 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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iknoweverything wrote:
Quote:
If you're skilling up a weapon in a merit party, get the @#%^ out, you don't belong there.

No excuses.


it didnt bother you then, but bothers you now?

i completely agree with what you are saying, but you are telling the wrong people. you should have told that to him instead of trying to make him the posterchild of polearm-sam-doinitrong. imo, if you don't tell him to straighten up, you are just as guilty as he is. you knew what was going on and you let it happen.

if you party with a guy who is trying to make a polearm build work, yet failing miserably, i'm totally for laughing at his gimp ***. until then, this guy and his gear seem irrelevant.
I did. I wasn't the party leader. He d/c'd. Then the other DD d/c'd, so it was just me and that SAM, so I left.
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Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
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#40 Mar 19 2010 at 12:07 PM Rating: Good
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It's quite rude to use pickup merit/exp parties for skill up and breaking latents of low damage weapons.

Brave Blade sync'ed down, or two, three levels worth of skills behind are not too bad, but Bow of Trials or eight level worth of skills behind in high level or merit party? That deserves public ridicule.

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#41 Mar 24 2010 at 2:47 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
laughing about someone's dmg output and weaponskill dmg while they are skilling up is just sad. what's next, pics of people in campaign so everyone can laugh at the whm meleeing?



Quote:
if you party with a guy who is trying to make a polearm build work, yet failing miserably, i'm totally for laughing at his gimp ***. until then, this guy and his gear seem irrelevant.


Not sure I've got this logic figured out, seems to me like you're saying if someone is fully skilled up and has some appropriate gear but has made mistakes, we should mock them and feel good about ourselves.

But, if they're totally and completely gimp as **** to the point of being nearly 10 levels behind in skill it's unfair and childish to mock them?

Since when did a str ring and swift belt count as good skill up gear btw? You can be the white knight if you want but the truth is that guy is being disrespectful to the other 5 members of his pt and deserved mocking, the only person who gives a **** if he's skilling up seems to be you. I'm sure most of us figured out that's what he's doing, we just don't care, gimp in a party is gimp. Most people don't expect relics when we party but skilling up with a sub par weapon is out of order.
#42 Mar 25 2010 at 3:42 AM Rating: Default
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81 posts
bsphil wrote:
If you're skilling up a weapon in a merit party, get the fuck out, you don't belong there.

No excuses.

bsphil wrote:
Lv.74 Samurai / Lv.37 Ninja

bsphil wrote:
merit party

bsphil wrote:
Lv.74

Something doesn't fit here...

Edited, Mar 25th 2010 1:42pm by okcin
#43 Mar 29 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
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okcin wrote:
bsphil wrote:
If you're skilling up a weapon in a merit party, get the fuck out, you don't belong there.

No excuses.

bsphil wrote:
Lv.74 Samurai / Lv.37 Ninja

bsphil wrote:
merit party

bsphil wrote:
Lv.74

Something doesn't fit here...


Honestly... it's common knowledge that the phrase "merit party" is a generic term for the typical merit party model in the 72~75 level range. Whether or not people are actually acquiring merit points in said party, or even capable thereof, is completely irrelevant.
#44 Mar 29 2010 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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Banggugyangu wrote:
okcin wrote:
bsphil wrote:
If you're skilling up a weapon in a merit party, get the **** out, you don't belong there.

No excuses.

bsphil wrote:
Lv.74 Samurai / Lv.37 Ninja

bsphil wrote:
merit party

bsphil wrote:
Lv.74

Something doesn't fit here...


Honestly... it's common knowledge that the phrase "merit party" is a generic term for the typical merit party model in the 72~75 level range. Whether or not people are actually acquiring merit points in said party, or even capable thereof, is completely irrelevant.
.

Not to mention that merit parties aren't reserved for level 75 camps anymore. I see a lot of 75's meriting in Qufim these days. Rather sad, I know, but true.
#45 Mar 30 2010 at 11:53 AM Rating: Good
19 posts
You guys have it easy. I once partied with a SAM skilling up polearm with an unlocked gondo and using double thrust. I swear to Jesus, I'm not even kidding. I left the party in about .3 seconds after the second double thrust.

Lots of ****** SAMs out there, no doubt. But even the ****** ones sometimes try. This is just plain lazy.
#46 Mar 30 2010 at 12:22 PM Rating: Decent
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JeebusKhristlol wrote:
You guys have it easy. I once partied with a SAM skilling up polearm with an unlocked gondo and using double thrust. I swear to Jesus, I'm not even kidding. I left the party in about .3 seconds after the second double thrust.

Lots of sh*tty SAMs out there, no doubt. But even the sh*tty ones sometimes try. This is just plain lazy.


I'd venture to say that he was using double thrust for giggles. 500 WSs and melee attacks in between on EP mobs would be enough to bring all but the gimpiest of polearm skills up to at least penta thrust. That is, unless he did it on purpose by WSing on meditated TP only. I remember getting a full level on a single double thrust back in the day.

*edit* if he indeed didn't have penta thrust, then you still probably stayed in the party for about an hour, as it would take that long for him to get 200 TP lolz.

Edited, Mar 30th 2010 1:23pm by Banggugyangu
#47 Mar 30 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Default
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Sorry, I meant locked* gondo. Since I confronted him about it and everything before leaving. No clue why I said unlocked.
#48 Mar 31 2010 at 5:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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I have a question about polearms. Obviously, they have a specific time for use (outside of playing around with your friends). However, when I look at wiki, the Iron Ram Lance has a higher DoT than the Engetsuto. So, why is the Iron Ram Lance looked down upon so much? Obviously, your pentas will be lower on the iron ram, but those should ballance themselves out over time.

I would think that the higher DoT would make the Iron Ram Lance a better choice for most things where a polearm is wanted.

This may be a stupid question, but I am trying to make sure that I am doing something atleast semi intelligent when I feel like doing something differnt (for me) in a merit party.
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#49 Mar 31 2010 at 6:04 PM Rating: Good
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SAM's tend to do most of their damage through WS, this goes double for PLM builds that rely on high Penta-spam numbers. For SAM you want the highest damage PLM you can possibly get your hands on.
____________________________
RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#50 Apr 01 2010 at 5:31 PM Rating: Good
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Don't read too much in to those DPS ratings on the Wiki, they are simply just a measure of DMG per Delay. They do not take into account additional stats on the weapon.

Also keep in mind that damage from polearm comes not only from melee hits, but also WS and jumps (always true for DRG, and if SAM/DRG).

As an example of why those DPS ratings aren't the final say, check Great Katana.

Hagun: 10.00 DPS
Shinsoku: 10.67 DPS
Onimaru: 10.27/11.07 DPS (latent depending)

Yeah...
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Woodworking:88 Cooking:60 Alchemy:60 Bone:60 Leather:60 Cloth:60 Smithing:60 Gold:54 Fishing:33
#51 Apr 02 2010 at 5:26 PM Rating: Decent
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maybe blackout his name or something.
you could be ruining the guy's ffxi life.
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