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Maybe 5 hit setup will be possible!!Follow

#1 Mar 06 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Just read about the new level cap.

Maybe with some new abilities, our store TP trait will be higher and a 5 hit setup will be possible in a near future!!

What do you want with this new update?
#2 Mar 06 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Excellent
Well, it's possible now, it's just not optimal XD



Based on the previous progression sTP V will be level 90 and only an additional +5sTP. The first lv cap (lv80) should give us Zanshin V though @55% activation and access to Yonnin/Innin, and Reverse Flourish.


Really I'm not expecting much for SAM, but I'd like either a damage dealing JA (iai), a higher DPS TP bonus weapon, tp bonus trait, or more TP generation/stealing/storage moves.
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#3 Mar 06 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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Would be great to get another Stp Job Trait. It's got me kind of worried/curious about what they'll do with this job in the future seeing that they're going to probably lower Sekanokis level for use as a subjob ability. Just want something unique for us considering every job ability we have will be subbable.

Edit: Wtf is that avatar Shinta, from the new Alic in Wonderland?

Edited, Mar 6th 2010 4:33pm by marleytiva
#4 Mar 06 2010 at 4:06 PM Rating: Excellent
Yup!

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#5Bigmogreen, Posted: Mar 13 2010 at 12:31 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) 5 Hit GO! .. The New Standard when update comes out .. while yall do 5 imma be making a 4 hit xD
#6 Mar 13 2010 at 1:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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And still not doing as much damage as people who know what they're doing. Go figure.
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#7 Mar 13 2010 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good
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Bigmogreen wrote:
5 Hit GO! .. The New Standard when update comes out .. while yall do 5 imma be making a 4 hit xD



and doing less damage with it
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#8 Mar 14 2010 at 6:14 AM Rating: Default
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5-hit isn't all too hard now without giving up anything major. It doesnt even suck as long as you do not use a Rindomaru for it.

I use a Pachipachio for it myself. It's actually an excellent weapon if you merit and gear yourself towards using it. I love it, and it parses really well too.

However, adjustments.

That means,

* Polearm merits have to be turned into GK merits to make up for the -ACC (Not really all that shocking, since you have backups, but still). Unless you dont have other jobs that have a weapon leveled, then 8/8 both if you want, idc.

* Store TP Lv.5 because, well, 10% more TP off base TP.

* Ikishoten Lv.5 for 43% TP on every Zanshin hit. ("(13+15)*1.57=43.96TP") The -6 ACC is going to make you see this more often.

* Zanshin Activation rate could be helpful, but meh, not exactly needed to bring it from 45% to 50%. If you rather do Third eye for soloing or Meditate it really doesnt matter either way.

DMG:82 and ATK+12 are good base stats for the weapon.

And best of all, 5-hit can be aquired by only using Rajas (5), Hachi feet (5), Hachi Hands (8), Chiv chain (1) and Brutal (1).
Heck, those last two are completely optional too and can be replaced with anything non sTP-wise to still retain 5-hit, but neither of those pieces are bad really...

20 sTP from gear, 25 sTP from being 75, 10 sTP from merits and 2 sTP from your weapon for an astounishing 57 sTP without giving up anything all too important.

All in all, this gives you a 5-hit naturally. 4-hit whenever you miss and zanshin procs (45~50%), and an even faster TP gain thanks to 17% Double Attack (1:6) if you use /WAR with Polearm Grip and Brutal Earring.

So really, you can make a 5-hit not suck gear-wise. It wont be quite the HNM-killer like Hagun might be, but god, it's amazing against anything else.



Edited, Mar 14th 2010 1:43pm by KojiroSoma
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#9 Mar 14 2010 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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So really, you can make a 5-hit not suck gear-wise.
You just outlined one that sucks. I'm assuming you have another thought up that doesn't somewhere and you're holding out for the suspense?
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#10 Mar 14 2010 at 3:50 PM Rating: Default
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Professor shintasama wrote:
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So really, you can make a 5-hit not suck gear-wise.
You just outlined one that sucks. I'm assuming you have another thought up that doesn't somewhere and you're holding out for the suspense?

No, this is the one i'm using. Why dont you humor me and tell me just why it's not any good? I trust you can put more words into it than lolPachi or anything refering to how it's not a Hagun.

It's not about how it's not a polearm 5-hit, or how it's not a Hagun. I'm asking you, why is this not a fair, if not good, 5-hit setup where nothing gets majorly gimped?

Edited, Mar 14th 2010 10:57pm by KojiroSoma
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#11 Mar 14 2010 at 4:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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KojiroSoma wrote:
Professor shintasama wrote:
Quote:
So really, you can make a 5-hit not suck gear-wise.
You just outlined one that sucks. I'm assuming you have another thought up that doesn't somewhere and you're holding out for the suspense?

No, this is the one i'm using. Why dont you humor me and tell me just why it's not any good? I trust you can put more words into it than lolPachi or anything refering to how it's not a Hagun.

It's not about how it's not a polearm 5-hit, or how it's not a Hagun. I'm asking you, why is this not a fair, if not good, 5-hit setup where nothing gets majorly gimped?

Edited, Mar 14th 2010 10:57pm by KojiroSoma


not enough haste. if you're outparsing people with that, they're doing it wrong too, or you're way more aggressive than them. pisses away some of the advantage of WSing more by WSing weaker.
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#12 Mar 14 2010 at 7:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Hmm my question is, with at least 2 our of 3 hits landing on Rana, how much sTP would be needed for a 5 hit. That is assuming we get another tier of sTP and a really good DPS weapon (something like Oni but a bit stronger). I've seen Rana do amazing damage if /WAR with meat and some form of attack buff (the things that don't work so well with Y/G/K). Actually my friend modified his Penta trust macro and it turned out to be pretty amazing damage.
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#13 Mar 14 2010 at 8:14 PM Rating: Good
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No, this is the one i'm using. Why dont you humor me and tell me just why it's not any good? I trust you can put more words into it than lolPachi or anything refering to how it's not a Hagun.

It's not about how it's not a polearm 5-hit, or how it's not a Hagun. I'm asking you, why is this not a fair, if not good, 5-hit setup where nothing gets majorly gimped?


Maths!

WITHOUT support:

I'm assuming you're wearing W. Turban, Swift Belt, B. Haidate, and using Hasso.

That's 24% haste~, with a 480 delay Great Katana.

480 * .76 = 364.8

With a Hagun and Dusk Gloves / Fuma Sune-Ate, your haste would be 30% total, using a 450 delay Great Katana.

450 * .7 = 315

Pachi:

D: 82 Delay: 365 = 13.4 DPS
5 hit @ 365 delay = 30.4~ seconds to 100% tp (24.3~ seconds after a WS)

Hagun:

D: 75 Delay: 315 = 14.2 DPS
6 hit @ 315 delay = 31.5~ seconds to 100% tp (26.25 seconds after a WS)

So: You're sacrificing a bit of DPS and the haguns stronger WS to get your next WS 7.5% (2 seconds) faster.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

WITH support:

Pachi:

24%~ haste, +15% haste spell, 20% marches:

480 delay, 59% haste = Delay 196.8 or 197

Hagun:
30%~ haste, +15% haste spell, 20% marches:

450 delay, 65% haste = delay 157.5 or 158

Pachi:

D: 82 Delay: 197 = 24.9 DPS

5 hit @ 197 delay = 16.416~ seconds to 100% tp. (13.1333~ with WS)

Hagun:

D: 75 Delay: 158 = 28.48 DPS

6 hit @ 158 delay = 15.8 secods to 100% tp. (13.1666~ with WS)

-----------------------------------------------------

tl;dr:

Without buffs, you sacrifice DPS and WS strength to get your next WS two seconds sooner.

With buffs, you sacrifice DPS and WS strength to gain TP at an identical rate to the Hagun, slower than the Hagun if you miss your WS.

This may be alright if you fall into the "I can't afford a hagun" boat. But if the bazaar listings on FFXIAH are any indication, the Pachi costs just as much as a Hagun.

Edited, Mar 14th 2010 9:27pm by ItsAMyri
#14 Mar 15 2010 at 4:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Milich wrote:

not enough haste. if you're outparsing people with that, they're doing it wrong too, or you're way more aggressive than them. pisses away some of the advantage of WSing more by WSing weaker.


See, i so love words. Thank you Pahn for putting more effort into it than "it sucks". Haste is definately an issue keeping you from being topped out. Math turned out to show just how overly effective haste is. Then again, the whole weapon is not falling behind too much atleast.

ItsAMyri wrote:
Quote:
No, this is the one i'm using. Why dont you humor me and tell me just why it's not any good? I trust you can put more words into it than lolPachi or anything refering to how it's not a Hagun.

It's not about how it's not a polearm 5-hit, or how it's not a Hagun. I'm asking you, why is this not a fair, if not good, 5-hit setup where nothing gets majorly gimped?


Maths!

WITHOUT support:

I'm assuming you're wearing W. Turban, Swift Belt, B. Haidate, and using Hasso.

That's 24% haste~, with a 480 delay Great Katana.

480 * .76 = 364.8

With a Hagun and Dusk Gloves / Fuma Sune-Ate, your haste would be 30% total, using a 450 delay Great Katana.

450 * .7 = 315

Pachi:

D: 82 Delay: 365 = 13.4 DPS
5 hit @ 365 delay = 30.4~ seconds to 100% tp (24.3~ seconds after a WS)

Hagun:

D: 75 Delay: 315 = 14.2 DPS
6 hit @ 315 delay = 31.5~ seconds to 100% tp (26.25 seconds after a WS)

So: You're sacrificing a bit of DPS and the haguns stronger WS to get your next WS 7.5% (2 seconds) faster.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

WITH support:

Pachi:

24%~ haste, +15% haste spell, 20% marches:

480 delay, 59% haste = Delay 196.8 or 197

Hagun:
30%~ haste, +15% haste spell, 20% marches:

450 delay, 65% haste = delay 157.5 or 158

Pachi:

D: 82 Delay: 197 = 24.9 DPS

5 hit @ 197 delay = 16.416~ seconds to 100% tp. (13.1333~ with WS)

Hagun:

D: 75 Delay: 158 = 28.48 DPS

6 hit @ 158 delay = 15.8 secods to 100% tp. (13.1666~ with WS)

-----------------------------------------------------

tl;dr:

Without buffs, you sacrifice DPS and WS strength to get your next WS two seconds sooner.

With buffs, you sacrifice DPS and WS strength to gain TP at an identical rate to the Hagun, slower than the Hagun if you miss your WS.

This may be alright if you fall into the "I can't afford a hagun" boat. But if the bazaar listings on FFXIAH are any indication, the Pachi costs just as much as a Hagun.

Edited, Mar 14th 2010 9:27pm by ItsAMyri

Actually, i got one for 500k, not the 2.500.000 people are asking for Haguns. So i went to have some fun with it and found it wasnt half so bad.

But yes, thank you maths. You have answered both things for me. One that a haste build 6-hit with a Hagun would still beat it, but at the same time also that it's really not a bad weapon if you're not using a Hagun. Which was my original point to start with and something i'm happy to hear atleast.

As thankful as i am about the maths, because you did a great job at them, i cant help but notice you did not include my main focus for this weapon. The use of zanshin and ikishoten to not only make the negative acc not leave as much of an impact anymore, but perhaps even turning it into it's strong point by opening the way to a 4-hit on zanshin with Lv.5 Ikishoten.

Be that as it may, i'm happy enough to just leave it at that and guesstimate that the difference is neglible.

Thank you.


Edited, Mar 15th 2010 11:16am by KojiroSoma
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#15 Mar 15 2010 at 9:08 AM Rating: Excellent
KojiroSoma wrote:
See, i so love words. Thank you Pahn for putting more effort into it than "it sucks". Haste is definately an issue keeping you from being topped out. Math turned out to show just how overly effective haste is.
Smiley: deadhorse shouldn't need more than a three word explanation
KojiroSoma wrote:
that it's really not a bad weapon if you're not using a Hagun.
You have a very loose definition of "not bad". Your setup looses severely both in WS frequency and WS power and your decision is "well then, I'm glad I'm wasting my time with it"? WTF is wrong with you? If you want to be cheap buy an onimaru, you'll 1)have better melee dps (~8% by base dps), 2)have (slightly) stronger WS (although not nearly as good as hagun), 3)have higher WS freq, 4) net +11accuracy/+4atk and 5)gain 400k-470k profit depending on server (assuming you can find another rube to buy pachi for 500k).
              Come out of lalaIcanthearyouland and take a look at reality.
KojiroSoma wrote:
The use of zanshin and ikishoten to not only make the negative acc not leave as much of an impact anymore, but perhaps even turning it into it's strong point by opening the way to a 4-hit on zanshin with Lv.5 Ikishoten.
Nothing "makes up" for loss of accuracy unless you're way over cap and using no +acc gear, opportunity cost still puts you in a loosing situation vs someone with ikki/zanshin(don't merit)/GK merits who's not screwing themselves over in the weapon department. In fact, you only need 4 ikki merit ranks to get the same effect for a 6-hit leaving one for blade bash or Shikki making it even more attractive.

5p-hit in a nutshell:
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#16 Mar 21 2010 at 12:03 AM Rating: Good
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ItsAMyri wrote:
With a Hagun and Dusk Gloves / Fuma Sune-Ate

Just a quick question. Where are you getting the rest of the sTP needed for a 6-hit? Because if it's ACP/Askar body or food, why can't the 5-hit pachi get that too and use fuma over hachi boots?

I'm not trying to say a 5-hit is good or even comes close to hagun, I was just wondering what's going on there.
#17 Mar 21 2010 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
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im not a samurai, so i don't know how exactly well a non-hagun Rana would compare to a hagun YGK, but i can think of a 5hit setup that wouldn't sacrifice haste to get there.

if i understand kojiro's post correctly, you need 55 total storeTP with a 480 delay weapon. 35 come from traits & merits which leaves 20 to be made up in gear.

pachi/rose/--/white tathlum
turban/PCC/brutal/busha
askar/dusk/ecphoria/rajas
chucu/swift/byakko's/fuma

leaves you with 20% haste and 20 storeTP in gear, independent of SJ (leaving /drg open as a possibility for 25% haste). since Rana is a multihit, you can drop some storeTP for WS in favor of acc/att.

this looks like it could be competitive with a hagun, if you could make Rana competitive with a hagun powered YGK. the biggest shortcoming of this set looks like accuracy, but pizza should compensate well enough while still boosting attack for Rana.
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#18 Mar 21 2010 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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Buront wrote:
im not a samurai, so i don't know how exactly well a non-hagun Rana would compare to a hagun YGK, but i can think of a 5hit setup that wouldn't sacrifice haste to get there.

if i understand kojiro's post correctly, you need 55 total storeTP with a 480 delay weapon. 35 come from traits & merits which leaves 20 to be made up in gear.

pachi/rose/--/white tathlum
turban/PCC/brutal/busha
askar/dusk/ecphoria/rajas
chucu/swift/byakko's/fuma

leaves you with 20% haste and 20 storeTP in gear, independent of SJ (leaving /drg open as a possibility for 25% haste). since Rana is a multihit, you can drop some storeTP for WS in favor of acc/att.

this looks like it could be competitive with a hagun, if you could make Rana competitive with a hagun powered YGK. the biggest shortcoming of this set looks like accuracy, but pizza should compensate well enough while still boosting attack for Rana.


rana is 3 hit with 35% STR mod, hagun is 1hit, 75% STR mod, auto-ACCcapped and close to auto-ATTcapped in situations where you'd even consider using rana for damage. hagun gekko base damage is around 175, while pachi with the same STR would be around 135, but it would absolutely have to be cut down to add more ATT and ACC.

what you want to add in now are mob stats and such for the comparison. i sort of lost interest; was just starting it out. my gut reaction is the common sense view that hagun would win w/o super buffs, pachi-rana would win if ACC/ATT was capped outside of gear anyway. of course polearm would beat them both in the latter situation.
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#19 Mar 21 2010 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
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Actually, i got one for 500k, not the 2.500.000 people are asking for Haguns. So i went to have some fun with it and found it wasnt half so bad.



So you have basically want to make yourself feel happier with the fact you can't afford a Hagun, and are trying to lie to yourself in thinking your 500k weapon is on-par and even better than a Hagun.

Keep dreaming.
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#20 Mar 21 2010 at 1:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Thing to also remember is that Hagun has crap DoT. It would do less damage on the five hits leading to that 100% then the same five hits with Oni.

My question is the possibility of 5-hit with Oni / Rana because of only needing 98~99 TP rather then 100. Hmm lots of math is required for this..
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when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the @#%^ out of the way instead...
#21 Mar 22 2010 at 9:22 AM Rating: Excellent
Saveall wrote:
My question is the possibility of 5-hit with Oni / Rana because of only needing 98~99 TP rather then 100.
Using rana only saves you ~2-5 sTP, leaves you with a 6-hit anyways ~15% if the time, decreases your overall WS dmg significantly, and still falls victim to all of the other Pachi 5-hit problems we listed above.
Saveall wrote:
Hmm lots of math is required for this.
nrly

super overbuffed situation: penta > all GK WS


non-overbuffed situation: Hagun+YGK > Oni+YGK > Pachi+YGK >>> Oni+Rana > Pachi+Rana > Hagun+Rana



Capped acc/ratio is really really really good.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2010 11:31am by shintasama
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#22 Mar 23 2010 at 8:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Thing to also remember is that Hagun has crap DoT

Ok, Im not even a SAM, infact, I don't even like SAM, but this made me facepalm. It doesn't f*cking matter that the Hagun has crap DoT, because SAM is THE crap DoT job, almost all of it's damage comes from weapon skills. Its a stark contrast to Mnk, where almost all their damage comes from DoT and not much from weapon skills. You sound like one of those that jumped on the SAM bandwagon because you think it's some kind of super hero job that is magically broken and is better than every other DD. In which case, you sir, are the cancer that is killing FFXI.
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#23 Mar 24 2010 at 4:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Excuse me .... I've been SAM since 2003, it was and always will be my first job. So take your nonsense and walk out.

I mentioned DoT because it gets ignored these days when doing maths. A good SAM is gonna get 60~70% of their damage from WS, which leaves 30~40% of their damage coming from smacking the monster in the face. That is not a small portion and should be taken into consideration. Also to top it off that number is made that small because so many SAM's focus on WS, rightly so but it needs to be understood when we're making this kind of comparison. I tend to use the Soboro as an example, it puts out smaller but more frequent WS, but it also does crazy DoT compared to Hagun. Those facts combined make it a formidable weapon depending on the situation.
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the @#%^ out of the way instead...
#24 Mar 24 2010 at 5:05 PM Rating: Good
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milich wrote:
Buront wrote:
im not a samurai, so i don't know how exactly well a non-hagun Rana would compare to a hagun YGK, but i can think of a 5hit setup that wouldn't sacrifice haste to get there.

if i understand kojiro's post correctly, you need 55 total storeTP with a 480 delay weapon. 35 come from traits & merits which leaves 20 to be made up in gear.

pachi/rose/--/white tathlum
turban/PCC/brutal/busha
askar/dusk/ecphoria/rajas
chucu/swift/byakko's/fuma

leaves you with 20% haste and 20 storeTP in gear, independent of SJ (leaving /drg open as a possibility for 25% haste). since Rana is a multihit, you can drop some storeTP for WS in favor of acc/att.

this looks like it could be competitive with a hagun, if you could make Rana competitive with a hagun powered YGK. the biggest shortcoming of this set looks like accuracy, but pizza should compensate well enough while still boosting attack for Rana.


rana is 3 hit with 35% STR mod, hagungekko is 1hit, 75% STR mod, auto-ACCcapped and close to auto-ATTcapped in situations where you'd even consider using rana for damage. hagun gekko base damage is around 175, while pachi with the same STR would be around 135, but it would absolutely have to be cut down to add more ATT and ACC.

what you want to add in now are mob stats and such for the comparison. i sort of lost interest; was just starting it out. my gut reaction is the common sense view that hagun would win w/o super buffs, pachi-rana would win if ACC/ATT was capped outside of gear anyway. of course polearm would beat them both in the latter situation.

Nothing to add. That was just bugging me.
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