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#1 Feb 22 2010 at 7:59 PM Rating: Decent
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I got Soboro, or I can use a polearm. Not really sure which would be better. Looked in the stickies and can't find anything.
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#2 Feb 22 2010 at 10:03 PM Rating: Good
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Polearm till you get yukikaze and/or stop fighting birds.
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#3 Feb 23 2010 at 11:31 PM Rating: Decent
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In all the times I parsed myself 60+ with soboro vs polearm, polearm won by a big factor on birds.

In my experience, soboro is for skill ups, /DNC and other non exp situations.

I cant imagine why you would want to exp on anything other than birds. The only camp that has anywhere near (or possibly exceeds) the exp at bird camps are imps/jnun.

Whilst some SAM seem to like imps, the reality is that ~50% of our dmg comes from WS which are severely gimped by amnesia. A equally well geared/skilled/focused MNK, RNG or WAR kills SAM in imp pts, so even if you happen to get an invite to an imp pt (which surprisingly happens a lot) you are most likely better off not taking it and letting someone with grater DoT take that spot.
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#4 Feb 24 2010 at 3:27 AM Rating: Good
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Whilst some SAM seem to like imps, the reality is that ~50% of our dmg comes from WS which are severely gimped by amnesia. A equally well geared/skilled/focused MNK, RNG or WAR kills SAM in imp pts, so even if you happen to get an invite to an imp pt (which surprisingly happens a lot) you are most likely better off not taking it and letting someone with grater DoT take that spot.


Silly advice imo, I used to love MNK & SAM Asuran > Gekko's on imp's, and whether you use Soboro, PA, or Hagun @ the camp, there are still fly's and Jnun's that don't amnesia, and you comment basically say's 'don't take 2H's to imp camp'.
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#5 Feb 24 2010 at 4:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Silly advice imo, I used to love MNK & SAM Asuran > Gekko's on imp's, and whether you use Soboro, PA, or Hagun @ the camp, there are still fly's and Jnun's that don't amnesia, and you comment basically say's 'don't take 2H's to imp camp'.


I'm not saying don't take 2H (I think WAR and DRK make great additions to Imp pts), I'm saying don't take SAM. This is my measured observation. Whilst parsing is not an exact science by any stretch of the imagination, it does support logic in this case, which is jobs that rely on JA and WS more than others are going to be less effective where amnesia is spammed than jobs that rely less on JA/WS.

WAR (using GA) and especially MNK are much less affected by amnesia than SAM because more of their dmg come from DoT. RNG can obviously be effective from outside of the range of amnesia. I actually really like DRK in imp pts for stun assuming they are silena'd quickly.

I'm not saying SAM cant do dmg in imp pts, I'm saying they are affected more than other jobs to the poin where the game balance is against them in comparison to other strong DD.

You are absolutely correct about Jnun and flies (though personally I have not seen flies pulled that often) however the reason people are there are imps and whenever one is up, it's the priority to pull.

I'm not sure i have seen asuran>Gekko in imp pts... I would have guessed that darkness would be heavily resisted and subsequently not enough to make a big difference?

If you are going to fight imps, soboro has been more effective than other GK in my experience; however I have not compared it to Hagun as I have not had a sync that high there.

Anyway... each has their own opinion and experiences and hopefully we have both helped the OP. At the end of the day, if you have been seeking for hours, you often dont care where the camp is when you finally get that invite ^^.







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#6 Feb 24 2010 at 5:52 AM Rating: Decent
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I parse everything I do and have done for years. Soboro kanes almost everything almost always (I has Soboro/Tomoe/Hagun to compare too). The only situation where Hagun pulls ahead so far is short burst damage (2hour zerg type things) and /thf. Though in all honesty if your spamming WS between SA/TA recasts, Soboro wins again.
I admit with full polearm merits It is more than likely Tomoe would win in meripo, for me personally, it doesn't.

The above takes 50-75, merit parties, dynamis, tier1-3 ZNM (4 I'm normally another job), limbus and Sea gods into account comparing myself, to myself.
I do use Hagun in aforementioned situations where I have proven to myself it is superior, though in all honesty if I had to pick one to drop, it wouldn't be Soboro.

In essence I attribute most peoples negative attitude to Soboro over other GK because they simply don't pay attention and spam TP as fast as they can be. On paper to the mathy types, it more than likely should not outperform other options at 75. But time and time again I beat myself(using an alternative) and most everyone around me.

Yes it does 500~600 average Gekkos, ~1kish on a decent DA which is not high by any account, but I can do them somewhere around 2~3 times more often than I can with Hagun.

Also, SAM/DRG with 25% haste & Soboro. Nothing more fun :D
#7 Feb 24 2010 at 8:48 AM Rating: Good
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For the imp parties on SAM, just equip an ecphoria ring and use it's charges when you get amnesia, saves a lot of time ;)
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#8 Feb 24 2010 at 8:56 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure i have seen asuran>Gekko in imp pts... I would have guessed that darkness would be heavily resisted and subsequently not enough to make a big difference?


Just because it's a Darkness skillchain doesn't necessarily mean it's going to suck on anything that resists dark, actually. The skillchain can also take the properties of either ice, water, or earth damage, so it still has a roughly 75% chance of choosing an element that isn't going to be fully resisted right off the bat. (Imps resist magic damage in general so the SC damage might still not be eye-popping no matter what, but roughly 75% of the time Darkness is capable of landing just as well as Light can. Note that even Light tends to land on imps for crap damage.)

Any time a multi-element SC (level 2 or 3) is performed it seems to randomly choose one of its elements to be its primary damage type. For instance, try doing Fragmentation/Light SCs on puks. Sometimes it will do damage as normal, but sometimes they will be healed by it. This is the result of the game randomly choosing wind to be its damage element, which puks absorb. A similar result can be achieved by performing LV2/3 skillchains on avatar primes when one of the elements involved is the element that they absorb.

Edited, Feb 24th 2010 10:41am by Fynlar
#9 Feb 24 2010 at 11:10 AM Rating: Good
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Just because it's a Darkness skillchain doesn't necessarily mean it's going to suck on anything that resists dark, actually. The skillchain can also take the properties of either ice, water, or earth damage
Yup, it's important to remember LV3 "darkness" isn't just "compression" elemental (which is the "dark" element subject to resist) it's Compression(dark) + Scission(earth) + Induration(ice) + Reverberation(water). There would be a lot less confusion if people used the lv1 SC names to refer to the skillchain dmg type, but it's ingrained at this point :/

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I cant imagine why you would want to exp on anything other than birds
Depending on PT setup Defoliators aren't bad.

Edited, Feb 24th 2010 12:13pm by shintasama
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#10 Feb 24 2010 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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I cant imagine why you would want to exp on anything other than birds.

I can't imagine why anyone would want to EXP on exactly the same mob for 20 levels, and then merit on exactly the same mob for years after that.
#11 Feb 24 2010 at 2:23 PM Rating: Decent
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I can't imagine why anyone would want to EXP on exactly the same mob for 20 levels, and then merit on exactly the same mob for years after that.


I would rather exp/merit on the same boring mob and get it done fast, then exp/merit on some 'exciting' mob and take twice the amount of time.

Edited, Feb 24th 2010 3:24pm by NickRomano
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#12 Feb 24 2010 at 4:13 PM Rating: Good
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I would rather exp/merit on the same boring mob and get it done fast, then exp/merit on some 'exciting' mob and take twice the amount of time.

Fair enough, but you're doing something fundamentally wrong if you get half the EXP/limits on anything else. It's hard not to be cynical and think that sticking with birds is producing underskilled players who can't get good EXP off anything else because they lack the skills to get good EXP off anything else.

(which is hilarious, because FFXI is mostly just paying attention and hitting macros, and I normally wouldn't quite call that "skill." But, I don't know how else to explain players who can't get excellent EXP off anything but a colobri.)

What's the point of putting hundreds of hours into EXPing and merits just to only be good at killing birds?
#13 Feb 24 2010 at 5:22 PM Rating: Decent
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For the imp parties on SAM, just equip an ecphoria ring and use it's charges when you get amnesia, saves a lot of time ;)


Yeah, this is true, but remember it's on a 5minute timer and it has a recast time so if you are switching it out for WS you have a wait if you have used WS in the last 30 seconds. I did see a smart SAM saved ecphoria ring for every time he got amenesia just after using sekka... good stuff.

Quote:
Yup, it's important to remember LV3 "darkness" isn't just "compression" elemental (which is the "dark" element subject to resist) it's Compression(dark) + Scission(earth) + Induration(ice) + Reverberation(water). There would be a lot less confusion if people used the lv1 SC names to refer to the skillchain dmg type, but it's ingrained at this point :/

Good point ^^.
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I would rather exp/merit on the same boring mob and get it done fast.

This. Though I don't agree that it's twice as much exp, it is typically at least 25% quicker. When you have been going after maat's like I have, 25% makes a massive difference.

I have done crawlers and other mobs from time to time on jobs that were hard to find pts for and found that most times, mages are too slow on dispel/finale or sleepga/etc and even when they are not, the exp is still slower... I have had 1 party there that was very good, but most of them have failed.
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What's the point of putting hundreds of hours into EXPing and merits just to only be good at killing birds?

I don't share this view. If anything, i think that birds have made DD more attentive, they need to spam TP before they lose it and they need to pop food as soon as its gone. On the downside, DD might not learn how to walk the hate-line appropriately and mages might not learn how to spam -na/erase/dispel/whatever.

Most players these days have so many jobs levelled that they probably have enough of those types of skills (albiet macro usage practise).

Slightly off-topic, I think saying this is the same as all those BLM who say that qufim BLM are NEVER as effective in endgame compared to those BLM that soloed all the way...

My view is that good players who read/learn about the game and keep their skills capped are likely to be good in endgame situations AND they are going to be able to contribute earlier than those that take the harder but prouder route. **** players are going to be **** players regardless... how you get exp with the amount of information available these days has little to do with it imo


Quote:
Also, SAM/DRG with 25% haste & Soboro. Nothing more fun :D

This is awesome fun! I played around in besieged with a few friends (WHM, BRD, RDM). SV+Marchx2+Haste+SAM/DRG with 25% haste and soboro was the most fun I have had in a while (though due to lag I couldn't spam WS as much as I would have liked).


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#14 Feb 24 2010 at 11:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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My view is that good players who read/learn about the game and keep their skills capped are likely to be good in endgame situations AND they are going to be able to contribute earlier than those that take the harder but prouder route. sh*t players are going to be sh*t players regardless... how you get exp with the amount of information available these days has little to do with it imo

I agree. But, it's not like every player is either great or terrible. There are plenty of players in between who do not spend much time on online forums and learn the game by actually playing the game. From a perspective based purely on personal observation, it looks to me like a majority of players in the game do not frequent FFXI forums.
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i think that birds have made DD more attentive, they need to spam TP before they lose it and they need to pop food as soon as its gone.

Okay, those two things (which a player can also ignore easily, since there is no scary consequence for losing tp or not eating food -- those things don't kill you) are taught by colibris. Every other skill (managing hate so as not to die, dealing with status ailments, timing damage around mob vulnerabilities and buffs, managing shadows against mobs that hit hard or multi-attack, dealing with mobs of various job types, modifying gear to account for high defense or evasion, dealing with pets or tricky links, watching for aggro, and so on) come from fighting a variety of mobs.

I can accept (although, not personally agree with) the perspective that colibris being soft and easy doesn't ever lead to less-skilled players, but I'm quite certain that fighting nothing but birds to 75 and beyond is not making players better.
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Though I don't agree that it's twice as much exp, it is typically at least 25% quicker. When you have been going after maat's like I have, 25% makes a massive difference.

A player who has a half-dozen melee jobs already is almost certainly the exception rather than the rule. When there is almost nothing left to learn, EXPing is never going to be a source of learning. How many players can that really be said of, though?


#15 Feb 25 2010 at 3:31 AM Rating: Good
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I've played the game since 360 release, and ppl were still exp-ing 50+ in a variety of zone/camps located all over vanadiel, although these camps are obviously inferior, I still learned a lot about the game.

How much are new players going to learn just fighting colibri 50-75? I do love those birds, and its amazing how much of an involvement those pink's have in this game, and although I thoroughly enjoyed leveling my first job to 75, I would only exp in AU areas after ~53, and 80% of that leveling will be birds, simply because sub-par exp just takes the fun out of the game for me, but getting good exp from a sub-par camp is a nice feeling.
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#16 Feb 25 2010 at 3:36 AM Rating: Good
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From a perspective based purely on personal observation, it looks to me like a majority of players in the game do not frequent FFXI forums.

I do agree with you, especially the bit I quoted. It frustrates me that so few players these days tend to read forums which are such an excellent source of information. I especially wish the other DD in my LS would read stuff here /sigh.

I used to read alla quite frequently but now it seems that there are so few posts these days compared to 4 years ago. Is there a new favourite stomping ground that I have not noticed yet? Is it just due to dwindling numbers?

Quote:

I can accept (although, not personally agree with) the perspective that colibris being soft and easy doesn't ever lead to less-skilled players, but I'm quite certain that fighting nothing but birds to 75 and beyond is not making players better.

I agree that all things considered, they are not learning as many useful skills (although I think keeping shadows up on colibri is more challenging than most other mobs with lowish delay and peckking flurry).

I also agree that if you are new to a type of job then getting a variety of mobs would be great. In the case of the OP, this probably wouldn't be much of a concern but your point still stands.
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#17 Feb 25 2010 at 4:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Players who read forums are in the distinct minority, especially amongst the console users. Anything that seems common or "understood" on the forums needs to be taken with a grain of salt when applying to to the actual player base. Most players I see in game only have one, two at the most jobs leveled to 75. Many of the guys who've been around for years have long left the game so we're left with newbies.

Also if everyone is told to only level at colibri, then how is someone going to learn new skills on a new job? Also there is a finite amount of colibri camps available at any time, and their becomes less space as you hit the ends of each range. Camps that could support two middle level parties (12 players) instead can only support one higher level party doing double BRD super chains. It is in everyone's best interest to learn alternate camps and their specific requirements. Colibri are chosen because they have the ~least~ requirements for skill. A random collection of six players will have a greater chance of higher XP at colibri then at a different camp.

New players (especially healers) have considerably less skill these days then those who had to actually worry about paralyze / silence / sleep / hate control / etc. Really an end game event should not be where a WHM learns how to use / prioritize paralyna, silena, cursna, erase, and to control hate from cure bombing people.
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#18 Feb 25 2010 at 10:49 AM Rating: Good
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I guess where I was coming from is, I have leveled several jobs to 75, at this point when I am leveling a new one, it really is just easiest to grab a 55-56 sync. You can literally infi-chain at that level if you have players who know what the **** is going on, and a BRD who knows how to pull.

Sure other camps aren't half the exp, I admit I was exaggerating, but there is so much more to this game than EXP I tend to want to get it done as fast as possible. And I honestly prefer to merit on Mamool more than anything else :P
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#19 Feb 25 2010 at 1:26 PM Rating: Default
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Fynlar wrote:
Imps resist magic damage in general so the SC damage might still not be eye-popping no matter what


For imps, due to the high magic resistance, I have found 3-part light to be the most reliable skillchain. 2 SAMs accomplish this regularly with great ease. With 2 SAM/DRGs, you can pump this out every time you both have 100+ TP, if you time your jumps, meditate, and sekkanoki correctly. 20k/hr+ on imps is fun IMO.
#20 Feb 25 2010 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent
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It's all based on opinion really. Me and friends used to head down to Bibiki Bay for a steady 6-7k/hr on an empty camp at level 68~. It keeps the game a bit more fresh if you're not constantly grinding the same thing constantly.

I love fighting birds. They are the fastest experience and it makes certain levels fly by really quick. Sometimes, though, I just want something a little different. That's why, even though all my jobs are 50+, I don't mind syncing down to 34 or something and pulling a party to Zi'tah.
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#21 Feb 25 2010 at 4:11 PM Rating: Decent
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I personally don't view consistent skillchaining as something to try for on something like imps, especially 3-parters; your SCs *will* get ************** often enough for it to be grating. I just view them as something that you just let happen if the timing is right and treat it as a bonus.
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