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# Why the -PDT on amano samsFollow

Mar 04 2010 at 9:22 PM Rating: Default
629 posts
JaxReborn wrote:
Quote:
This means that you have an 81.5% chance of being hit. In the 2-3 attack sample size, probability states you won't evade. In fact, it would take a sample size of 6 attacks or more for probability to state that you SHOULD evade at least one.

Just to show you that you should go back and check your stats. You define the probability of getting hit as 81.5%, and claim it takes 6 attacks to expect an evade. Actually, you should look at it like this: What is the probability of getting hit 6 times in a row with no evasion? 0.815^6 = 0.29. Only 29%. In fact, your odds of getting hit 4 times in a row are only 0.815^4 = 44%. In other words, more often than not you will get an evade within 4 hits if you have an 18.5% evade rate.

You completely contradicted your previous post in this. Keep in mind that Evasion attempts are completely independent of one another.

If you have a 5% chance at something and have a sample size of 1000 samples, the result will average at 50 for the 5% chance. If you have a sample size of 100, the result will average at 5 for the 5% chance. If you have a sample size of 10 samples, you will average 0~1. If you have a sample size of 1, you will average 0 or 1. The likely result, however, for a sample size of 9 or less 0. Regardless of how many you have evaded before hand. Taking consecutive mobs into consideration is a moot point simply because varying levels and stats will change results.

The whole conversation is a moot point, however, simply because... you're still barely breaking the evasion floor if at all.
Mar 04 2010 at 9:48 PM Rating: Excellent
798 posts
Quote:
You completely contradicted your previous post in this. Keep in mind that Evasion attempts are completely independent of one another.

No I didn't. My math still assumes they are separate (hence the 0.815 chance for each one). I simply showed that the probability of 4 consecutive non-evades at an 18.5% evasion rate is less than 50%. Calculate the probability of flipping a coin and getting 4 heads in a row. The calculation method is identical. This isn't that hard...
____________________________
Jacs of Leviathan
SAM, MNK, THF, NIN, SCH, DRK, BLU 90
Woodworking 100+3, Synergy 57
Mar 04 2010 at 10:40 PM Rating: Decent
27 posts
/*quote*/The bolded statement makes absolutely no sense. Results don't get skewed either way. OK, say I have a 30% evasion rate, I could take 1000 5-hit samples. Some of these samples I will evade 1 time or less (20% rate or less), some of these samples I will evade 2 times or more (40% rate or more). Average them all out and it will come to 30%. You should err above your average just as often as you err below. /*quote*/

I don't post much on here, but something about this one gets me. The above quote states the issue: It's 1-5 hits, that CAN ERR. His opponent is only stating that there is no guarantee which way that next 1-5 hits may err, therefore, a guaranteed damage reduction results in overall less damage taken. It seems more of a break down in communication than a real disagreement.
I know I've been 1/8 on attacks at low levels. Does that mean I have around 12.5% accuracy? No, it's just a small sample that doesn't average out.
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FFXI - Endyne(Asura) RDM 78, NIN 85

FFXIV - Endyne Asuran (Mysidia)
THM 18 // GLD 20 // CON 13 // BSM 17 // GSM 13

LWR 9 // WVR 13 // MNR 15 // LNC 21
Mar 04 2010 at 10:41 PM Rating: Excellent
6,481 posts
It's not "skewed" in any one direction, say you have a true 2% chance at doing hypothetical action X, and your sample size is 6. You have a 11.4% chance of actually doing X at least once out of those 6, and if you were stupid enough to treat "6" as a reasonable sample you would think your odds of X were >16.6%. On the other hand you might fail X all six times and think your odds of X are 0%. If you add up all the estimations and likelyhoods of the circumstances that caused said circumstance, you get 2%.

But all of that is completely irrelevant given your sample size isn't "6" it's "every swing any mob ever takes at you in said build", and the true chance doesn't change, it's 2%. It's set at 2%. It's always 2%. Higher sample sizes increase the accuracy of the estimation of the true value (higher estimation is not more likely than lower estimation or vise versa either there is no "skew"), they don't change the true value at all. If you get lucky and have X occur 10,000 times in a row or unlucky and none at all, if the true value is 2% your odds of X happening on the next occasion are still 2%.

2% is 2%.

It's how math works.

tl;dr:
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The smaller a sample size becomes, the more skewed it becomes toward the larger probable outcome.
No
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but the chance of having a result which is different increases.
No
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In the 2-3 attack sample size, probability states you won't evade.
No

Quote:
His opponent is only stating that there is no guarantee which way that next 1-5 hits may err, therefore, a guaranteed damage reduction results in overall less damage taken.
On avg in the situation we've been discussing the guaranteed -dmg% doesn't result in lower overall dmg though. It's like the idiots who think acc is somehow magically all important for multihit WS:
acc*dmg + acc*dmg + acc*dmg + acc*dmg= 4*acc*dmg
If you can raise dmg to a higher relative gain than acc you should do so. In this case if you can lower average %dmg taken via eva more than you can with -PDT you should do so. It may be more erratic, but the numbers will work out for you in the end.

Edited, Mar 5th 2010 12:26am by shintasama
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
Mar 05 2010 at 5:35 AM Rating: Default
458 posts
Yea maybe i'm ignorant but you're still missing my point Bang, while you have unlimited hp, unlimited mp mage that heals you...i don't, if i can evade an attack in those 3-4 seconds i'll take my chances, you go ahead and keep getting smacked pretending it doesn't hurts.
Mar 05 2010 at 9:52 AM Rating: Default
629 posts
Jajuzza wrote:
Yea maybe i'm ignorant but you're still missing my point Bang, while you have unlimited hp, unlimited mp mage that heals you...i don't, if i can evade an attack in those 3-4 seconds i'll take my chances, you go ahead and keep getting smacked pretending it doesn't hurts.

I see your point and I disagree with it... I DON'T have unlimited HP. Mages DO pretty much have unlimited MP in any situation where I'll regularly pull hate. I would rather get hit a little more often for a LOT less than risk getting 1 shotted by pecking flurry cuz I'm caught w/ my pants *read Third Eye* down.

You're still missing my point. Evasion has a floor. You're BARELY breaking it, if you're breaking it at all. Once again. It takes a bit of gear for a THF to break the evasion floor on VT stuff. THF naturally has almost the same evasion that SAM can EVER acquire. What makes you think you're going to break the floor as a SAM in these situations?
Mar 05 2010 at 11:11 AM Rating: Excellent
6,481 posts
Quote:
getting 1 shotted by pecking flurry cuz
oh tarus

(hp merits also help, but I've never gotten anything close to 1-shotted by a merit mob)
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You're BARELY breaking it, if you're breaking it at all.
1)other than high level (88+) HNM, no. lower/mid-80s mobs aren't nearly as accurate as you think they are. I showed (just to prove scar wrong) a long time ago I could halfass and get a decent (upper teens) eva rate on PLD vs EM/T, SAM has 26 skill and much better gear on that.
2)as I already pointed out, you're already wearing some +eva just b/c there is nothing else reasonable to shove in those slots, and you don't need to be breaking the cap by much for large chunks of available eva/agi to outdo small chunks of -PDT
3)If all you fight is kirin/wyrms and eva is actually floored, why wear +eva/parry at all? You could pick up some +def/VIT gear in those slots if you were really committed. It's just hypocritical otherwise.
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
Mar 05 2010 at 1:13 PM Rating: Default
27 posts
Quote:
On avg in the situation we've been discussing the guaranteed -dmg% doesn't result in lower overall dmg though. It's like the idiots who think acc is somehow magically all important for multihit WS:
acc*dmg + acc*dmg + acc*dmg + acc*dmg= 4*acc*dmg
If you can raise dmg to a higher relative gain than acc you should do so. In this case if you can lower average %dmg taken via eva more than you can with -PDT you should do so. It may be more erratic, but the numbers will work out for you in the end.

I still don't see how what I'm saying isn't clicking here. We have already established that in "Oh S*it" situations, a 1-5 hit volley is about what we should be looking at. It has also been admitted on both sides that a small sample size such as this can err in terms of actual evaded hits. I fail to see how having a guaranteed 30-50% (gear dependant) damage reduction is not a higher gain than even a 25% evasion chance, which I think is seriously pushing the limits of what could be possible on SAM in situations where "Oh S*it" gear is going to be used.
As for it "averaging out over time/career", that's all good, I'm glad math works. But it doesn't help your present situation when your "bad sample" (i.e, your 20% evasion gets you hit 4/4) of hits includes a 500+ critical that could have been a 250ish.
____________________________
FFXI - Endyne(Asura) RDM 78, NIN 85

FFXIV - Endyne Asuran (Mysidia)
THM 18 // GLD 20 // CON 13 // BSM 17 // GSM 13

LWR 9 // WVR 13 // MNR 15 // LNC 21
Mar 05 2010 at 1:56 PM Rating: Default
629 posts
Professor shintasama wrote:
Quote:
getting 1 shotted by pecking flurry cuz
oh tarus

(hp merits also help, but I've never gotten anything close to 1-shotted by a merit mob)
Quote:
You're BARELY breaking it, if you're breaking it at all.
1)other than high level (88+) HNM, no. lower/mid-80s mobs aren't nearly as accurate as you think they are. I showed (just to prove scar wrong) a long time ago I could halfass and get a decent (upper teens) eva rate on PLD vs EM/T, SAM has 26 skill and much better gear on that.
2)as I already pointed out, you're already wearing some +eva just b/c there is nothing else reasonable to shove in those slots, and you don't need to be breaking the cap by much for large chunks of available eva/agi to outdo small chunks of -PDT
3)If all you fight is kirin/wyrms and eva is actually floored, why wear +eva/parry at all? You could pick up some +def/VIT gear in those slots if you were really committed. It's just hypocritical otherwise.

There's a pretty large difference between EM-T stuff and VT-IT stuff. I personally believe that there's another formula for skill caps from 76+. There's a significant difference between the evasion of a 75 RDM and a level 81 greater colibri. Much greater than their small AGI can make up, and that's assuming AGI actually does ANYTHING for eva, which people are starting to believe it doesn't. Greater Colibris (RDM job with D evasion) gain 5 evasion from level 81 > 82 which is a significant difference from the 1-2 evasion from levels prior. As I said before, RDM's lowest offensive combat skill is the same rank as its evasion skill. If Evasion is indeed effected by AGI, and you can assume the colibri's DEX to be in the 40~70 range, then you can further assume the greater colibri (81 version) to have an accuracy of 321~336. That's assuming that a colibri's accuracy is based on the combat type with a D rank skill cap.

I'm personally interested in finding out what type of damage a colibri indeed uses. If it's piercing, then you could safely assume that the skill it's utilizing would be dagger. At that point, you can assume B skill level which would be considerably higher than my assumption of 321~336.

If AGI doesn't effect evasion, like some people have begun to believe and test, then the 334 evasion that a level 81 colibri boasts would only be determined by evasion skill and traits *none*. That means that D rank skill at 81 would be 334 and accuracy would then be higher based on what the colibri's DEX is.

Add Level correction to this as well, which apparently was discovered to be a 4 accuracy per level correction. Correction of a level 81 colibri would be +24 accuracy, or essentially -24 evasion.

I would personally be thrilled about another skill cap increase for higher levels, but that's speculation of course. We'll find out in june.
Mar 05 2010 at 4:00 PM Rating: Excellent
798 posts
Quote:
As for it "averaging out over time/career", that's all good, I'm glad math works. But it doesn't help your present situation when your "bad sample" (i.e, your 20% evasion gets you hit 4/4) of hits includes a 500+ critical that could have been a 250ish.

Following your line of reasoning to an extreme: Say you have to choose between a 1% -PDT set or an 80% evasion set. Say you are going to take 3 potential hits. Well there is a 0.8% chance you get hit on all three of those hits, that would be the "bad sample". Thus in the "bad sample" you should've worn the 1% -PDT, huh? That 80% evasion, by your reasoning, is not doing you as much good as the 1% -PDT, since in the bad sample, you would take more damage with the evasion set than with the -PDT one.

That line of reasoning is obviously tremendously flawed. It requires you to define an evasion rate and -PDT% where you would choose one over the other. Go ahead and define that line for us, it should be fun to watch you try.

Edited, Mar 5th 2010 5:02pm by JaxReborn
____________________________
Jacs of Leviathan
SAM, MNK, THF, NIN, SCH, DRK, BLU 90
Woodworking 100+3, Synergy 57
Mar 05 2010 at 4:42 PM Rating: Excellent
6,481 posts
Quote:
and like I already pointed out if you get hit for that 250 when you had 240hp you'll die regardless, while additional eva could have saved you. There are equal extremes each way. The best thing to do is focus on what will save you the most hp on avg, there is too much variance in dmg per hit and luck involved to do it any other way.
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There's a pretty large difference between EM-T stuff and VT-IT stuff.
there's a pretty large difference between SAM and PLD's EVA and gear choices.
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I personally believe
that's great, but unless you have something to back it up your beliefs are meaningless
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which people are starting to believe it doesn't.
People also used to believe 1AGI > 1eva/skill. NINs would swear up and down by Seiryu's. Unless you have valid testing to back it up the most logical thing is it works like reverse 1h dex, 2AGI=1eva=.5%=.9skill
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reater Colibris (RDM job with D evasion) gain 5 evasion from level 81 > 82 which is a significant difference from the 1-2 evasion from levels prior.

Lesser Colibri-
# L63: Defense 231, Evasion 243, VIT 52, AGI 52
# L64: Defense 235, Evasion 247, VIT 52, AGI 52
# L65: Defense 241, Evasion 253, VIT 55, AGI 55

63->64= 4eva
64->65= 6eva
avg: 5eva/level

(82-65 * 5)+253 = 338 ~= 339
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you can further assume the greater colibri (81 version) to have an accuracy of 321~336.
no you can't, but I've already rejected that claim previously. We're just going in circles.
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I'm personally interested in finding out what type of damage a colibri indeed uses. If it's piercing, then you could safely assume that the skill it's utilizing would be dagger
/facepalm

I shouldn't even need to say it doesn't work that way. Do you think player RDMs are weak to piecing and ice too?
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
Mar 05 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Default
27 posts
Quote:
Say you have to choose between a 1% -PDT set or an 80% evasion set

Um, wtf?
Actually, you must have completely missed what I was saying. If you can evade 80% of the time, why the **** would you worry about -1% damage? This makes no sense, and is in no way what I was saying. I specifically stated that -30-50% PDT was better than 25% evasion. You can't take that and plug in random numbers and still believe that I think it's the same thing. You are throwing around nonsense numbers and calling my reasoning flawed....
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That 80% evasion, by your reasoning, is not doing you as much good as the 1% -PDT, since in the bad sample, you would take more damage with the evasion set than with the -PDT one.

Again, this has no bearing on my response, as I would not, and cannot take those numbers to that extreme(SAM doesn't have an 80% EVA set.....). A higher EVA rate would eventually win over 30-50% damage reduction, but I don't think anyone is sporting that level on SAM(which I believe was the point Bang was trying to make).
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It requires you to define an evasion rate and -PDT% where you would choose one over the other. Go ahead and define that line for us, it should be fun to watch you try.

You know, I hate to sound cliche', but "Sh*t's situational". Is your EVA skill capped? What gear do you have access to? What are you fighting? You can't write a blanket statement to cover this, like most of the stuff you try to min/max.
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Following your line of reasoning to an extreme

Don't "follow" me where I never intended to go.
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Again, putting words in my mouth here. Try to keep up. This isn't straight EVA vs. PDT. It's knowing when gambling on 20-25% evasion(still don't think SAM is gonna beat the floor by too much) is better/worse than PDT.
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FFXI - Endyne(Asura) RDM 78, NIN 85

FFXIV - Endyne Asuran (Mysidia)
THM 18 // GLD 20 // CON 13 // BSM 17 // GSM 13

LWR 9 // WVR 13 // MNR 15 // LNC 21
Mar 05 2010 at 10:07 PM Rating: Good
798 posts
You wrote this:

Quote:
As for it "averaging out over time/career", that's all good, I'm glad math works. But it doesn't help your present situation when your "bad sample" (i.e, your 20% evasion gets you hit 4/4) of hits includes a 500+ critical that could have been a 250ish.

I didn't not put words in your mouth, I only followed your line of reasoning. You introduced the notion of a "bad sample", which I took to a logical extreme to demonstrate that it really holds no bearing on what gear you should choose. I was not referring to your skewed case of 30-50% -PDT vs 25% evasion. Go back and read my posts. I never said favor one over the other. I said choose whatever gives you the best combination for reducing total damage taken. I've really only been attacking bad reasoning regarding sample size considerations.

Quote:
"Sh*t's situational".

I never said anything to the contrary.
____________________________
Jacs of Leviathan
SAM, MNK, THF, NIN, SCH, DRK, BLU 90
Woodworking 100+3, Synergy 57
Banggugyangu, Posted: Mar 06 2010 at 9:20 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Right.. because job type of a mob effects what damage type hurts it the most... It's a valid hypothesis. Simple to test for a BST. Grab a mob that is weak to X damage type as a pet. Throw it at a colibri. See if it takes extra damage. W/ jug pets, I believe you can even test all of the damage types. *Is there a pet that's weak to blunt?*
Mar 06 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Excellent
6,481 posts
Quote:
way to quote that out of context, jackass. I even stated at the end of the post that it was obviously speculation which will be found true or false in june.
Actually not out of context, if you want to see "out of context" check the Exodus quote in my sig. "I believe" already implies speculation/lack of evidence, to which I say: "If you don't have anything to back up your claims/speculation stop making them, and certainly stop using them to try to rationalize a flawed argument". Quoting the rest of the text wouldn't have added any relevant extra information.
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*edited for a botched tag*
apparently not
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Simple to test for a BST. Grab a mob that is weak to X damage type as a pet.
Way to miss the point (think "dagger skill"), but we've digressed. Seeing how this thread is going absolutely nowhere the rest of my replies will in the form of interpretive image linking.

@
:
||
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
Mar 08 2010 at 9:41 PM Rating: Excellent
458 posts
Just parsed my eva setup on EM decrepit gnole, no food was use, wpn tomoe, no ws was used, seigan/eye only once.

Stats that matter: eva skill 278
parry skill 240
eva +32
pdt -7

hit/miss
308/665

evasion 66.57%
parry 3.59% doh
counter 0.32 -.-

First thing noted was such a low parry rate, only 12 during all fight, probably due the high eva rate and still a low skill.

While 66% might not look huge i notice that plenilune embrace gives a huge acc boost as well besides att boost, i usually evade up to 10 hits in a row but after that move is used is usually 3-5 guaranteed hits.

Before he started using it i was @ 80% eva rate.

I'm going to test on other mobs too.

Edit: Aura statue VT, taco used, seigan/eye fulltime, desperate flourish used, 1 yukki and 1 kasha at start, wpn soboro.

Hit/miss
46/50

evasion 34.26%
parry 1.41% -.-

The rest of the hits were anticipated but cant find them on parser.

Edited, Mar 9th 2010 12:50am by Jajuzza
Mar 08 2010 at 10:46 PM Rating: Excellent
6,481 posts
actual research :O!!!

rate ups for you good sir

____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
KondaOfCaitSith, Posted: Mar 14 2010 at 10:40 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You blinded it, which skewed the data in favour of an evasion build.
Mar 14 2010 at 12:28 PM Rating: Excellent
6,481 posts
Quote:
Earth staff (optional, when you pull hate on kirin etc)
/facepalm

If you have hate on Kirin for an extended period all the -DMG in the world isn't going to help as his WS/hits/spells(-PDT isn't helping you at all there) just do too much, you're going to want 1)shadows, 2) a weapon that can do real TA+WS dmg and get that sucker off you, or 3)run away, it's easy to kite Kirin w/o any +movement.

besides, had you read the whole thread you'd realize that I'm talking about things "other than high level (88+) HNM", a significant amount of eva vs a small amount of -PDT, and am already using most of the gear you listed.

Edited, Mar 14th 2010 1:32pm by shintasama
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
Mar 14 2010 at 12:34 PM Rating: Default
71 posts
I never said you should equip Earth staff every time you pull hate (hence the optional comment), but you should carry one and be prepared to use it if the situation calls for it.
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75 SAM | 75 MNK | 75 THF | 75 NIN | 75 COR
http://www.ffxiah.com/player.php?id=64588
Mar 14 2010 at 1:45 PM Rating: Excellent
575 posts
Samurai evasion is a whopping 13 skill points below ninja evasion.

My ninja tanked without evasion merits. This means I had a 2.5% higher chance to evade than a merited samurai in the same gear. Mobs still missed.

Ninja doesn't run around with floored evasion. Most NIN gear is also wearable by Samurai.

I fail to see where this "Samurai Can't Break the Floor" logic comes from.

A full eva setup:

O. Hat/Eva Torque/Elusive Earringx2/SH+1/RasetsuTekko/CorseCape/Scouter'sRope

That's +68 evasion (+34% evade rate), and that's all easyish gear to obtain. You could do better with NM drops and such. Also, I'm probably missing things, this gear is off the top of my head.

Also: If a SAM/NIN can evasion tank NM's in the 80-85 range (Ungur, Charybdis, Etc), I'm relatively certain you can count on your EVA set on anything that isn't so hard to evade that even NIN or THF wouldn't bother.

Edited, Mar 14th 2010 2:46pm by ItsAMyri
Mar 14 2010 at 3:01 PM Rating: Default
629 posts
ItsAMyri wrote:
Also: If a SAM/NIN can evasion tank NM's in the 80-85 range (Ungur, Charybdis, Etc), I'm relatively certain you can count on your EVA set on anything that isn't so hard to evade that even NIN or THF wouldn't bother.

THF gets 48 evasion from traits alone. There are many things that NINs cannot evade that THFs can with relative ease.

Shinta. Kirin hits like a truck, yes. But with -50% PDT, he's reduced to hitting like a compact sedan. This is my point about "Sometimes the goal isn't to reduce the total damage taken over the span of your whole FFXI career." Sometimes, it's simply more important to ensure you survive from third eye to third eye. If someone is taking half damage a little more often *and seriously... if you think you're going to break the evasion floor on kirin... lolz* the healers will have an easier time keeping him alive than someone who takes full damage a little more often *once again.. kirin's acc vs. your eva....*

For that matter, on the VT aura statue, with a 34% evasion rate, you can improve your evasion by at most 46%. Now let's pretend that Shinta's absolutely correct in his prior statement of "+Evasion % = -PDT %". With this, that would mean that you have the ability to add 50% or 46%. In that same example, after hitting the -PDT cap, there will be slots left open for evasion gear. If we take away the +eva, we are left with a ~18% evasion rate. Add -50% PDT and then +27 eva/skill from torque, mantle, and 2 earrings, and you'll have ~31% evasion with capped -PDT on the same mob.

BTW, your actual parrying rate was around 11%. The parser you used was calculating it based on total number of attacks vs. those that were parried. It should technically calculate it on the total number of attacks that weren't evaded vs. those that were parried.

Outside of all of that... I had a small epiphany. Can SAM even reach + 100 eva/skill? Assuming skill increases evasion in a 1:1 ratio, which most people believe it doesn't, that means that SAM can't even acquire +50% evasion through gear. SAM CAN, however acquire -50% PDT and still have room for some evasion left over.
Mar 14 2010 at 7:33 PM Rating: Good
575 posts
Quote:

Outside of all of that... I had a small epiphany. Can SAM even reach + 100 eva/skill? Assuming skill increases evasion in a 1:1 ratio, which most people believe it doesn't, that means that SAM can't even acquire +50% evasion through gear. SAM CAN, however acquire -50% PDT and still have room for some evasion left over.

You're assuming you start from a 0% evasion rate. Evasion reduces the enemies hit rate and is thus similar to haste in that you will get increasing returns.

Ex:

Increasing 5% (floor) to 15% evade rate: 10% rate increase, 10.6% actual damage taken decrease.

Increasing 25% to 35% evade rate: 10% rate increase, 13.4% actual damage taken decrease

Increasing 50% to 60% evade rate: 10% rate increase, 20% actual damage taken decrease.

Increasing 70% to 80% (capped) evade rate: 10% rate increase, 33.3333~ actual damage taken decrease.

This is the same 20 evasion in each case, to reduce the enemies hit rate by 10%. The difference is, when you're getting hit 3/10 times, taking another 1/10th off is a bigger chunk of the mobs hits (and thus damage) than dropping 9.5/10 to 8.5/10.

Quote:
For that matter, on the VT aura statue, with a 34% evasion rate, you can improve your evasion by at most 46%. Now let's pretend that Shinta's absolutely correct in his prior statement of "+Evasion % = -PDT %". With this, that would mean that you have the ability to add 50% or 46%. In that same example, after hitting the -PDT cap, there will be slots left open for evasion gear. If we take away the +eva, we are left with a ~18% evasion rate. Add -50% PDT and then +27 eva/skill from torque, mantle, and 2 earrings, and you'll have ~31% evasion with capped -PDT on the same mob.

See above. The enemies hit rate with 34% evasion would be 66%. Capping evasion, the enemies hit rate would be 20%. This is a 70% reduction in damage taken.

As SAM's eva is very close to NIN's (13 points, again), you won't be starting at or below the floor on anything which isn't a god/alliance only HNM.

Also: Using Kirin to argue that PDT is universally superior to EVA is like using Tunnel Worm's to argue that STR rings are better than Sniper's. (No, Rajas is not a STR ring, it has other stats on it.)

Most mobs you fight are not tunnel worms, just like most mobs you fight are not Kirin.

Also, protip from someone who has actually tanked Kirin: It is not the physical attacks that kill you. He rarely swings (tp spam) and the physical TP moves are easy to blink. It is the Greater Whirlwind/Sandstorm, which are magic damage (cone AoE, ignores shadows) that kill you. EVA won't help, -PDT won't help, the argument is moot.

Edited, Mar 14th 2010 8:39pm by ItsAMyri
Mar 14 2010 at 8:43 PM Rating: Excellent
6,481 posts
Quote:
Shinta. Kirin hits like a truck, yes. But with -50% PDT, he's reduced to hitting like a compact sedan.
A compact sedan going 40mph still kills you, for Kirin level enemies PDT isn't going to do much either, your best option is to not be an idiot. Besides, I've said the entire time that I'm not talking about lv 88+ mobs, all CoP/WotG/TAU mobs are significantly lower level and much easier to dodge.
Quote:
Now let's pretend that Shinta's absolutely correct in his prior statement of "+Evasion % = -PDT %". With this, that would mean that you have the ability to add 50% or 46%. In that same example, after hitting the -PDT cap, there will be slots left open for evasion gear. If we take away the +eva, we are left with a ~18% evasion rate. Add -50% PDT and then +27 eva/skill from torque, mantle, and 2 earrings, and you'll have ~31% evasion with capped -PDT on the same mob.
Have you even read anything I've posted? @#%^ing unbelievable.
Quote:
Also: Using Kirin to argue that PDT is universally superior to EVA is like using Tunnel Worm's to argue that STR rings are better than Sniper's. (No, Rajas is not a STR ring, it has other stats on it.)
*this* particularly when the amount of damage reduction you can get in certain slots via eva is double or more what you're getting from -PDT.

Edited, Mar 14th 2010 9:47pm by shintasama
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Winston Churchill wrote:
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KondaOfCaitSith, Posted: Mar 15 2010 at 6:40 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) oh, I forgot to mention the most important thing.
Mar 15 2010 at 7:21 AM Rating: Good
575 posts
Quote:
oh, I forgot to mention the most important thing.

Mob's TP moves are much more accurate than their melee swings.

I'd love to see how much damage a Fang Rush does to an eva build Sam who has berserk up.

<Samurai> Anticipates the attack.

Oh hai, I still had some third eye left because I evaded the melee swing before it.
Mar 15 2010 at 4:19 PM Rating: Default
71 posts
Quote:
<Samurai> Anticipates the attack.

Oh hai, I still had some third eye left because I evaded the melee swing before it.

So you equip your evasion "ohshi- set" when you have hate, even if your third eye is still up?

That's the most retarded thing I've ever heard.

Maybe if you're soloing as /dnc, but this discussion is about the best damage reduction when third eye is down. Which is via -pdt, NOT evasion.

Edit: since you snuck this little gem in since last time...

Quote:
Also, protip from someone who has actually tanked Kirin: It is not the physical attacks that kill you. He rarely swings (tp spam) and the physical TP moves are easy to blink. It is the Greater Whirlwind/Sandstorm, which are magic damage (cone AoE, ignores shadows) that kill you. EVA won't help, -PDT won't help, the argument is moot.

His physical attacks are easy to blink if you know they're coming, but whirlwind/sandstorm can't be blinked. I've not done kirin in almost a year now, but I think they also wipe your shadows.

3 of his TP moves are magical and 3 are physical. I don't recall ANY melee swings, just TP spam. Evasion isn't going to do anything. PDT is going to reduce a significant amount of damage from the physical damage weaponskills (which are the ones that 1shot you).

Edited, Mar 15th 2010 5:27pm by KondaOfCaitSith
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Mar 15 2010 at 5:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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KondaOfCaitSith wrote:

Quote:
Also, protip from someone who has actually tanked Kirin: It is not the physical attacks that kill you. He rarely swings (tp spam) and the physical TP moves are easy to blink. It is the Greater Whirlwind/Sandstorm, which are magic damage (cone AoE, ignores shadows) that kill you. EVA won't help, -PDT won't help, the argument is moot.

His physical attacks are easy to blink if you know they're coming, but whirlwind/sandstorm can't be blinked. I've not done kirin in almost a year now, but I think they also wipe your shadows.

3 of his TP moves are magical and 3 are physical. I don't recall ANY melee swings, just TP spam. Evasion isn't going to do anything. PDT is going to reduce a significant amount of damage from the physical damage weaponskills (which are the ones that 1shot you).

Edited, Mar 15th 2010 5:27pm by KondaOfCaitSith

Uhhh... Kirin never do physical attacks (or you can call he has no physical attacks at all), as far as my brain can recall. He just have unlimited TP that he'd spam whenever he doesn't feel like casting magic.
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Mar 15 2010 at 8:11 PM Rating: Excellent
575 posts
IIRC Kirin does swing normally. Occasionally. Like, every 5-6 TP moves he'll do a gimpy single attack round.

Whirlwind/Sandstorm ignore shadows but do not strip them. Same with Heat Breath.

Quote:
So you equip your evasion "ohshi- set" when you have hate, even if your third eye is still up?

That's the most retarded thing I've ever heard.

Is it a trashy merit mob? Why would you need an "ohshi" set for a merit mob?

Is it a zerg? See above. Probably won't matter.

Is it a mob difficult enough that you should actually try not to pull hate and/or is it low man so you don't have your own pocket WHM? Then yes, I would advice equipping your survival gear immediately.

You are useless if you are dead. You're better off losing maybe one swing (A lot of EVA gear also has ACC, so you're mostly just sacrificing haste/attack), as opposed to assuming you're like a PLD with shadows up due to third eye.

The thing about this "50% PDT set" is that you're tossing all your TP away and stopping TP gain/all damage output for the duration, before starting again at 0% tp. lolStaff and all that.

If you're using evasion, you're still swinging in your panic set, still probably hitting (Your acc might even go up, considering things like O. hat, SH+1, etc), albeit a little slower/softer.

The entire key to using evasion properly is that you want it with a backup (utsusemi, third eye). There's a reason THF/WAR doesn't out-tank NIN despite higher evasion.

tl;dr: If you can afford to be reckless enough to go full-DD even with hate, because of third eye, you probably aren't in big need of a full on tank set. If you're actually worried you might die, then yes, by all means get into your survival gear immediately.

Edited, Mar 15th 2010 9:11pm by ItsAMyri
Mar 15 2010 at 9:33 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
2,881 posts
Banggugyangu wrote:
that's assuming AGI actually does ANYTHING for eva, which people are starting to believe it doesn't.

either you interpreted the results of whatever study you read this in incorrectly, or who ever posted this theory is just flat out wrong. AGI most definately has an affect on evasion. i'm wondering what general consensus you have been consulting.

Banggugyangu wrote:
Someone has done testing with a very large sample size which appears to prove AGI offers no improvement toward evasion, parrying, guard, and shielding. The reason anyone thought they did in the first place was a horrible book from our dear friends "Bradyguides". I'll look for the thread with that testing and post the link when I find it.

Edited, Mar 15th 2010 10:34pm by Buront
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Mar 15 2010 at 10:31 PM Rating: Excellent
2,236 posts
Quote:
BTW, your actual parrying rate was around 11%. The parser you used was calculating it based on total number of attacks vs. those that were parried. It should technically calculate it on the total number of attacks that weren't evaded vs. those that were parried.

Assuming he's using KParser, it -does- account for evaded attacks when calculating parry/etc rates. Eva rate is evasions/total melee swings. Parry is parries/non-evaded melee swings (may include TP moves as well, have to check). Anticipation rate is anticipates/non-parried-or-evaded melee swings + TP moves. Intimidates get counted before evasions, shadows get counted after parry, etc.

Regarding Agi vs parry/shield/guard, there was testing by someone on BG that showed that Agi had no effect on shield. No data on Guard. It showed a -very- slight increase in parry, but well within margin of error for the data set (min parry rate of 3.5%, max parry rate of 6%, and another two data sets at 5% and 5.5%, with a difference of 40 AGI), so could very easily claim it has no effect. I'm fairly certain Agi does affect Eva, though.

Mar 16 2010 at 8:17 AM Rating: Default
71 posts
Quote:
The thing about this "50% PDT set" is that you're tossing all your TP away and stopping TP gain/all damage output for the duration, before starting again at 0% tp. lolStaff and all that.

If you're using evasion, you're still swinging in your panic set, still probably hitting (Your acc might even go up, considering things like O. hat, SH+1, etc), albeit a little slower/softer.

Wow, just wow.

Fist of all, you dont equip an earth staff every time you take hate. you use it situationally, like if third eye has one anticipate and leaves you without cover for 25 seconds vs a hnm. I've said this several times, but you seem to have ignored it each time.

And secondly, if you're suggesting that your acc might go up with an evasion set, then your TP set or food choice is horribly, horribly wrong.

I evasion tank a lot on NIN when duoing apollyn and other lowman things. my SAM can equip the same equipment, but it's missing 4 vital things.
1) 13 evasion skill.
2) Yonin (which is an additional 30 evasion)
3) A reliable source of blind (which is effectively another ~30 evasion)
4) A reliable source of damage avoidance. Utsusemi is much more reliable than seigan for damage avoidance.

My nin rolls with about +90 evasion (before blind) and +17 skill.

Samurai can't even get close to that.
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Mar 16 2010 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
if you're suggesting that your acc might go up with an evasion set, then your TP set or food choice is horribly, horribly wrong.
or they're being smart and focusing on haste in their tp set? Acc gear/food doesn't give nearly the same improvement SAM as NIN.

Most of the time if we're solo/duoing/lowman we're /NIN or /DNC, making most of your arguments invalid:
Quote:
1) 13 evasion skill.
+6% evasion doesn't break a build, /DNC gives evasion bonus for 10 eva.
Quote:
2) Yonin (which is an additional 30 evasion)
both SAM and NIN could evasion tank way before this was added, in June(?) we get it as well while /NIN
Quote:
3) A reliable source of blind (which is effectively another ~30 evasion)
Yukikaze is pretty reliable, we also get Kuriyami:Ichi while /NIN, or we could just ask our duo partner to cast it (not sure how/if they stack).
Quote:
4) A reliable source of damage avoidance. Utsusemi is much more reliable than seigan for damage avoidance.
Utsu is better for magic, heavy/slow hits and worse for multihit WS, TA/DA, quick attacks. We can use utsusemi /NIN (shocking I know!).

Now, you could argue that NIN can /DNC and get both bonuses, but unlike NIN, SAM has the tp generation to fully exploit /DNC's healing and still put out WS making it a much more powerful combination.

You've missed the point though (I really wonder if you and bag looked at my setup or read my posts at all), it doesn't matter if NIN gets more evasion, it only matters whether +5% evasion is better than -2%PDT, which it is assuming we're not completely floored (which is only really happening on oldschool HNM due to their stat/lv correction).

Also: green arrows to Buront for showing evidence that AGI works exactly the way it should rather than making sh*t up.

Edited, Mar 16th 2010 12:36pm by shintasama
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
KondaOfCaitSith, Posted: Mar 16 2010 at 2:20 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I stopped looking after I saw you had soboro in your "haste/tp build" and some other bleh equipment.
Banggugyangu, Posted: Mar 16 2010 at 3:33 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I love how my statement "Sometimes it's more important to ensure you survive from third eye to third eye." is being completely ignored.
Mar 17 2010 at 10:01 AM Rating: Excellent
6,481 posts
Quote:
Capped Acc is just as important on SAM as it is on NIN. If you're stacking haste before capped Acc, and not using pizza or sushi to compensate for uncapped Acc, you're doing it wrong.
No, it's not. Not only does SAM have higher base acc decreasing the improvement of further acc, we have Zanshin which decreases the relative worth of acc to ~half of what NIN gets. Additionally it's easier for us to build a high haste gear set and we get JA haste which makes haste much more valuable.

*(91%acc/90%acc= 1.111% improvement, w/ Zanshin= 94.85% corrected acc/94.28% corrected acc = 0.607% improvement, 0.607/1.111= 54.6%)

Quote:
This point is moot. with the raise in Level cap, SAM's B rated Evasion skill will fall even further behind NIN and THF's evasion ratings. Even if yonin is full strength while subbed (which it probably wont be) it wont close the widening gap between skill ratings.
The 24 levels 75->99 gives NIN ~7.9 more evasion skill, however, you're still missing the point. The goal behind making a "oh sh*t"/tanking set is to minimalize the damage you take, the higher we get and the more gear is available the easier it is to make a functioning evasion set for any job making eva. The higher our relative eva is the better adding more evasion is.
Quote:
-50% pdt set
A -50%PDT set on SAM isn't worth having unless all you're doing is 88+ mobs and you suck at managing your hate. Especially for solo/duo/lowman stuff it gimps your damage way too much, while many +eva options allow you to keep a reasonable output while still minimalizing dmg taken.
Quote:
with NIN, I'm garanteed 7 shadows every 30 seconds before any haste or anything like that.
The cast time on Utsu:Ni is 45 seconds pre haste, so technically no (it's actually ~5.67). Don't you know your own job?
Quote:
Yuki isn't as reliable as Kuriyami, you can't even be sure that it's landed until you see a "xxxx is no longer blinded" message.
YGK debuffs land almost every time (probably 95%, I don't really care to test it), the resist rate is extremely low.
Quote:
I've seen byakko
Do you just have a reading problem?
Quote:
you'll be feeding much more TP to a mob
Mob tp is a joke.
Quote:
SAM only has this ability while using soboro, which makes your damage output pretty meh.
Soboro is freaking awesome vs anything of reasonable level, and I just have to out damage NIN which is pretty weak, and a NIN in full -PDT is even weaker.
Quote:
I stopped looking after I saw you had soboro in your "haste/tp build" and some other bleh equipment.
1) I quite obviously meant the -PDT/eva/parry gear set I listed in this thread, which you obviously haven't read and continue to not read, making you look like an idiot when you comeback with things I've already addressed
2) I haven't updated my sig since I made it ~2-3 years ago
3) You're a dumbass for not realizing how powerful Soboro actually is
Quote:
I love how my statement [...] is being completely ignored.
I'm trying to ignore you all together, you're not intelligent enough to be worth talking to. Konda is getting to that point pretty fast too.

Edited, Mar 17th 2010 12:29pm by shintasama
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
Mar 17 2010 at 11:05 AM Rating: Excellent
798 posts
This thread is meandering into weird territory. Now its about NIN vs SAM and whether or not soboro is good (it totally is)?

Quote:
with NIN, I'm garanteed 7 shadows every 30 seconds before any haste or anything like that. Seigan is pretty buff, but can't garantee that sort of reliability.

This made me lol. Its already been pointed out you got the Ni timer wrong. I don't get why this is even relevant since NIN main gets 1 more shadow out of Ni, but SAM gets 2+ out of SE+TE (which are better than Utsu on non-casters). SAM can sub NIN you know, and if we are talking about damage mitigation where it matters, there is no reason why they wouldn't consider it. SE+TE -> Ichi -> Ni is sweet. Also, if we are talking eva vs -PDT, evasion is going to win no matter how much -PDT you have with shadows up unless the mob does a lot of AOEs. You'd probably do yourself a favor to quit talking about NIN.
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KondaOfCaitSith, Posted: Mar 17 2010 at 1:33 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Are we talking about Damage reduction when you have no shadows or Shadow preservation when you have shadows?
Mar 17 2010 at 6:41 PM Rating: Good
798 posts
Quote:
NIN get dual whield, which benefits from Haste

In the same way every single other weapon and job benefits from haste. Haste has increasing returns, Hasso stacks onto haste gear differently than haste gear interacts with dual wield.

Quote:
Yes, I know my job very well,

I call BS.

Edited, Mar 17th 2010 8:43pm by JaxReborn
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Mar 17 2010 at 7:02 PM Rating: Default
458 posts
This thread got a wierd turn indeed.

And please, for god sake stop the crap with earth staff as part of pdt set.
I really dont see why a sam should equip that midfight, unless maybe a sarameya sam tank.

Hq pdt set cost almost 2mil my server, is quite a bit when most sams dont even have decent tp/ws sets. 22 pdt is more realistic and cheap for everyone so please...50% is far from 22.
Mar 18 2010 at 7:29 AM Rating: Good
2,726 posts
I only skim-read 'cos frankly I got bored, but on someone comparing evasion vs EM and T mobs; on the EM, you'll have signet/sigil bonus, but not on the VT. Don't know if it was mentioned elsewhere.
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