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25%haste gearFollow

#1 Jan 20 2010 at 9:38 PM Rating: Decent
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is it only possible to reach max haste cap for gear on sam using /drg for the earring?
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#2 Jan 20 2010 at 9:50 PM Rating: Good
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Can you not add?

*grumble*

5 turban, 4 Dusk+1, 6 Velo, 5 Haidate, 3 Fumas - 23%

No you can't hit the cap without it.
#3 Jan 20 2010 at 11:33 PM Rating: Good
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Siralin wrote:
Can you not add?

*grumble*

5 turban, 4 Dusk+1, 6 Velo, 5 Haidate, 3 Fumas - 23%

No you can't hit the cap without it.


Blitz ring + ....... sentinel shield....sure you can. :P

Why again can sam use sword,club and dagger?

Edited, Jan 20th 2010 11:44pm by doctorugh
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#4 Jan 21 2010 at 1:54 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Except the cap is slightly over 25%, so in reality you need 26% to cap but don't get to fully utilize that last point.
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#5 Jan 21 2010 at 2:39 AM Rating: Excellent
doctorugh wrote:
Siralin wrote:
Can you not add?

*grumble*

5 turban, 4 Dusk+1, 6 Velo, 5 Haidate, 3 Fumas - 23%

No you can't hit the cap without it.


Blitz ring + ....... sentinel shield....sure you can. :P

Why again can sam use sword,club and dagger?

Edited, Jan 20th 2010 11:44pm by doctorugh


Sam can't equip a Blitz Ring though. Without subbing Drg, there's no way a Sam could hit the gear haste cap in general situations (there are situational gear pieces that would allow you to, like "Besieged:" or things like that, but not a normal one).

Edited, Jan 21st 2010 3:49am by Vlorsutes

Edited, Jan 21st 2010 3:50am by Vlorsutes
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#6 Jan 21 2010 at 3:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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thankfully, /DRG is the best subjob for SAM75, so it really doesn't matter how much haste you can get without it.
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#7 Jan 21 2010 at 6:49 AM Rating: Decent
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ok because i kept seeing them toss around the term maxed haste in gear but they never mentioned anything else. and the most i could think of was 23%.

the reason i asked was because i had been away from the game for a long while and there is alot of new gear added i have not seen.

oh and is /drg really better then /war at 75 without a soboro?

Edited, Jan 21st 2010 7:58am by arkangelic
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#8 Jan 21 2010 at 7:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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oh and is /drg really better then /war at 75 without a soboro?

Until new tests come out, outside of polearm sam, /drg is better than /war for GK sam.
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#9 Jan 21 2010 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
Except the cap is slightly over 25%, so in reality you need 26% to cap but don't get to fully utilize that last point.
Kind of a misnomer, the cap "is" exactly 25%, you just tend to get -slightly- less than the listed value from gear (ex- "1%" haste = 10/1024 = .977% haste", actual discrepancy varies by piece of gear) so you need 26% "written" haste to get 25% "actual" haste, not 26% written haste to get 25.XX% actual/capped haste.



Technically there is also some "salvage/assault/besieged only" +haste gear, but nobody gives a **** about it.


/DRG rocks anyways
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#10 Jan 21 2010 at 12:21 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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shintasama wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Except the cap is slightly over 25%, so in reality you need 26% to cap but don't get to fully utilize that last point.
Kind of a misnomer, the cap "is" exactly 25%, you just tend to get -slightly- less than the listed value from gear (ex- "1%" haste = 10/1024 = .977% haste", actual discrepancy varies by piece of gear) so you need 26% "written" haste to get 25% "actual" haste, not 26% written haste to get 25.XX% actual/capped haste.



Technically there is also some "salvage/assault/besieged only" +haste gear, but nobody gives a **** about it.


/DRG rocks anyways
Ahh, knew it was something like that.
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#11 Jan 22 2010 at 2:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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shintasama wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Except the cap is slightly over 25%, so in reality you need 26% to cap but don't get to fully utilize that last point.
Kind of a misnomer, the cap "is" exactly 25%, you just tend to get -slightly- less than the listed value from gear (ex- "1%" haste = 10/1024 = .977% haste", actual discrepancy varies by piece of gear) so you need 26% "written" haste to get 25% "actual" haste, not 26% written haste to get 25.XX% actual/capped haste.



Technically there is also some "salvage/assault/besieged only" +haste gear, but nobody gives a **** about it.


/DRG rocks anyways

To elaborate, haste is done with 100% being 1024/1024. Therefore, 25% should be 256/1024. Gear for 25% generally adds up to 250/1024(iirc), as shinta showed, and so you need an extra 1% to fill in that .6 you're missing to really hit cap.

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Edited, Jan 22nd 2010 3:34pm by Souji
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#12 Jan 22 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Siralin wrote:
Can you not add?

*grumble*

5 turban, 4 Dusk+1, 6 Velo, 5 Haidate, 3 Fumas - 23%

No you can't hit the cap without it.


milich wrote:
thankfully, /DRG is the best subjob for SAM75, so it really doesn't matter how much haste you can get without it.


Side note, if you can reach 23% before adding the earring, w/o haste samba and outside of zerg conditions (and possibly even w/), it's not going to outdo the benefits of /war.


Edit:

2% haste at 23%, marches, hasso is going to be a 6.6% increase, we can call it 7 if you want to account for w/e that tiny decimal is for hitting 26% haste.

10% DA is going to be 9.3% increase to DoT, WS frequency, and also add some direct damage to WS.

The more haste you have, the less you benefit from jumps and anything you're not capping acc on w/ pizza+1, you're likely to gain some sort of benefit from zerk, even if it's not the full benefit.

Edited, Jan 22nd 2010 4:12pm by Veggeto
#13 Jan 22 2010 at 5:10 PM Rating: Good
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point #1) 23%, while being the max haste w/o, is an unlikely number for anyone to actually have, extreme high end players will be using usu+ace's (-1%x2), and low end players will be using hachi (-3/4%) and swift (-2%).

point #2)
"23%"->"26%" is ~8.5% increase in the situation you mentioned when you account for X/1024 rounding, then you get the other bonuses on top of that. If you're lucky enough to score a DNC it's ~12.7% increase

point #3)
at low haste:
jumps ~= DA
haste > berserk 3/5 of the time on 3/10 of your dmg

at high haste full wyvern earring >>> DA/berserk
jumps add even more dmg

point#4)
DA isn't very good (less than half efficiency) for SAM WS because it doesn't get fTP/atk/acc mods like the main hit.

point #5)
Didn't account for acc, it's not hard to get at/near cap for merit stuff /DRG so pizza is mostly wasted and you could be eating better food.

point #6)
jumps allow for easy self SCing

point #7)
/DRG doesn't lower your defense

etcetc.

/WAR is a vastly inferior sub
it's not even close
it's been beaten to death
go away
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#14 Jan 22 2010 at 5:54 PM Rating: Decent
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point #1) 23%, while being the max haste w/o, is an unlikely number for anyone to actually have, extreme high end players will be using usu+ace's (-1%x2), and low end players will be using hachi (-3/4%) and swift (-2%).

High end players know that in any situation where they're not capping acc, they should be using pizza for food, then swapping that ace's to a turban. Ace's is extremely situational these days. If you have usu body, usu shoes are not required for 6hit, and pizza should cover you on the acc for most mobs, making fuma very viable. My build is actually just like that one, minus the dusk+1

Quote:
"23%"->"26%" is ~8.5% increase in the situation you mentioned when you account for X/1024 rounding, then you get the other bonuses on top of that. If you're lucky enough to score a DNC it's ~12.7% increase


Not sure where you're getting 8.5% from, would require to get more than 2.5% from 23~26 and I'm sure the decimal is smaller than that.

Quote:

point #3)
at low haste:
jumps ~= DA
haste > berserk 3/5 of the time on 3/10 of your dmg

At low haste, the wyvern earring is also worth way less.
Quote:

point#4)
DA isn't very good (less than half efficiency) for SAM WS because it doesn't get fTP/atk/acc mods like the main hit.

Which is why I didn't call it a 9.3% increase to WS damage, just 9.3% increase to DoT, WS frequency, and SOME WS damage.
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point #5)
Didn't account for acc, it's not hard to get at/near cap for merit stuff /DRG so pizza is mostly wasted and you could be eating better food.

For Colibri, which you should be using polearm anyways, you have a point, but you should be using polearm, so yea. On mamools or higher, you won't be capping critrate w/o sacraficing haste. You may want to go look up a lot of the math done, pizza is the universally accepted food for a reason, 90%+ of the time, on any mob that's actually worth a @#%^, it's the best food for nearly every DD
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point #6)
jumps allow for easy self SCing

Provided that nobody else in your party is WS'ing
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point #7)
/DRG doesn't lower your defense

Get a better party and that won't be a concern as far as merits go, and if we're talking about anything high end, sam can tank almost any mob in the game, in which /war would be required for voke

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/WAR is a vastly inferior sub

When you can benefit from more than 2 points of haste from wyvern earring(not my entire post was on that particular build, highly dependent on having that 23% haste), yes. For those who are capping acc w/ pizza even after dropping acc from ace's/usu shoes, and hitting 23% haste on /war, then not at all


And here's point #8, most things you go to, you'll fare better w/ polearm. So you'll want to be subbing war anyways. For example, I go to limbus, ejar, ect w/ polearm and keep my gkt handy just in case there is a piercing resistant mob, in which case I'll swap, plus the ability to tank almost any mob, whether it's intentional or **** hits the fan and you need to take over.




Edited, Jan 22nd 2010 6:55pm by Veggeto
#15 Jan 22 2010 at 6:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Also, I like how you use self SC'ing as one of your points, when you posted this earlier today

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SC dmg is also generally resisted vs higher level stuff, meaning you would built an entire build around 5-hit GK SC, in a level/buff range where you could make a ridiculous polearm build if you put in the same effort instead.
#16 Jan 22 2010 at 6:35 PM Rating: Good
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Veggie wrote:
High end players know that in any situation where they're not capping acc, they should be using pizza for food, then swapping that ace's to a turban. Ace's is extremely situational these days. If you have usu body, usu shoes are not required for 6hit, and pizza should cover you on the acc for most mobs, making fuma very viable.
[...]
For Colibri, which you should be using polearm anyways, you have a point, but you should be using polearm, so yea. On mamools or higher, you won't be capping critrate w/o sacraficing haste. You may want to go look up a lot of the math done, pizza is the universally accepted food for a reason, 90%+ of the time, on any mob that's actually worth a @#%^, it's the best food for nearly every DD
It's not that hard to cap on non-THF mamool either, you just need things like say... ace's/usu/acc bonus. Just to be clear, you realize how much atk you're giving up in these two paragraphs right? I find it amazing that you can consider berserk a bonus at all with a straight face.
Veggie wrote:
Not sure where you're getting 8.5% from, would require to get more than 2.5% from 23~26 and I'm sure the decimal is smaller than that.
We already pointed out (if you had read) it's ~.6% (6/1024).
1024/4= 256
256-~230 = 26

100-(100*~230/1024+20+10+15)= 32.5390625
100-(10+25+20+15)= 30

32.5390625/30 = 1.084635417
Veggie wrote:
At low haste, the wyvern earring is also worth way less.
It's worth more than berserk, I didn't claim anything else. I don't need to claim anything else. Wonderful strawman though.
Veggie wrote:
Which is why I didn't call it a 9.3% increase to WS damage, just 9.3% increase to DoT, WS frequency, and SOME WS damage.
Which is why I didn't bring up 9.3% at all? You're not very good at this...
Veggie wrote:
Provided that nobody else in your party is WS'ing
God help you if you get interrupted and have to close a SC with someone other than yourself
Veggie wrote:
Get a better party and that won't be a concern as far as merits go,
If your healer has enough mp for healing/etc with you fulltiming hasso, they can be debuffing/nuking. There is always use for more mp.
Veggie wrote:
if we're talking about anything high end, sam can tank almost any mob in the game, in which /war would be required for voke
In a merit party you shouldn't have a "tank", in some other hypothetical tanking scenario you seem to have in your head(?) /DNC or /NIN (provoke isn't the only way to get hate) would be better choices.
Veggie wrote:
I like how you use self SC'ing as one of your points
There is a reason it's one of the last ones, and I stand by both that quote and what I've said here, they're not actually contradictory (as much as you'd like that).



That was an entertaining diversion, anything else?
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#17 Jan 22 2010 at 6:56 PM Rating: Good
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On the subject, /drg, what earring to wear?

Non soboro = brutal.
Soboro = Bushinomimi?

Not that brutal is bad, but I'm assuming the loss to triple attack makes it not as good as just getting the extra str and attack on bushi.
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#18 Jan 22 2010 at 8:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Firstly, you don't know what you're talking about really. I was saying anything harder than merit mobs you can tank. My whole point on merits is that you should be using polearm anyways. In before mamool, as colibri is better exp

Pizza builds are better than meat. All that attack you're losing, that's on what the 30% damage portion you were complaining about before on zerk? The extra haste and capping hit rate is worth it.

As for DA being weak, it's about a 50% increase in WS damage at 100% TP (hagun) and a 40% increase at 200 tp (hagun), so it's not totatlly worth discrediting

As for SC'ing w/ someone else, you can do that anyways, your point was self SC'ing, which isn't going to happen often when everyone is spamming

Strawman? You're the one pulling the straws mr "but jumps are worth less when you have less haste zomg"

Idk about you but when I merit, i can fulltime zerk hasso, and my mage has enough mp to keep up w/ the healing and dia IIIs

As for tanking, I was talking about situations other than merit, let's say like NMs and ls events. If you were only talking about meriting, then ALL your points are moot, since polearm is better to begin with when it comes to merits.
#19 Jan 23 2010 at 3:49 PM Rating: Good
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Salodin wrote:
On the subject, /drg, what earring to wear?

Non soboro = brutal.
Soboro = Bushinomimi?

Not that brutal is bad, but I'm assuming the loss to triple attack makes it not as good as just getting the extra str and attack on bushi.
bushi/wyvern with soboro





Veggie wrote:
ad nauseum
I'll reply to you when you come up with a retort I haven't already refuted, or a new angle to a topic that's been beaten to death a ridiculous number of times at this point. I'm also willing make the concession that working with that extremely narrow/uncommon build, eating pizza at colibri, with a polearm instead of a GK, those specific buffs, and an uber back line /WAR would be better than /DRG (but I'm pretty sure you can see why I think that's irrelevant).

think->write->reread->edit->post

Edited, Jan 23rd 2010 4:54pm by shintasama
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#20 Jan 23 2010 at 4:14 PM Rating: Decent
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My build, in particular can beat gk at colibri w/ meat using polearm. Anyone w/ a lesser build can still beat GK rather easily w/ polearm using something as simple as crab sushi.

Back to what you "refuted" DA can be very significant to y/g/k, as I alreasy stated in my last post, 40-50% increase depending on what TP you go at. You haven't refuted my points about sam being able to tank many mobs in this game, as I was not only talking about merits, ect.
#21 Jan 23 2010 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
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and in before you actually try to dispute polearm being better than GK at birds, lol

And before you get me wrong, my case is based on the fact that the person has 23% haste before /drg. I completely agree w/ drg at lower levels of haste where you can actually get a much larger benefit from the earring, well execpt for salvage and assaults or any situation sam will be a much more than viable tank.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2010 5:22pm by Veggeto
#22 Jan 23 2010 at 9:36 PM Rating: Decent
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ok so if /drg is so good what lvl should i be subbing it at? i just hit lvl 60 few days ago. (oh and is there a minimum haste where if you have less haste then that /drg isnt as good? i usually dont get to party with bards)
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#23 Jan 24 2010 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
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Think could hit 10% haste equip with /drg + earring, swift belt and zeal cap at 59?
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#24 Jan 25 2010 at 2:06 AM Rating: Excellent
You'd have +10% Haste going just by the numbers on the gear, but as far as your actual Haste, it'd be calculated as 9.77%, given how Haste works in game. If you're going for a Haste setup at that level though, I'd recommend either camping Sarutobi Kyahan or farming up to buy a pair of Fuma Kyahan to boost your Haste further (especially considering that Sam have relatively few choices for feet armor at that level).
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#25 Jan 25 2010 at 11:45 AM Rating: Good
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arkangelic wrote:
ok so if /drg is so good what lvl should i be subbing it at? i just hit lvl 60 few days ago. (oh and is there a minimum haste where if you have less haste then that /drg isnt as good? i usually dont get to party with bards)
I'd do it 30-49 and 70+, it's hard to give you an exact haste number because camps and buffs under 75 are soo variable.
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#26 Apr 13 2010 at 11:20 AM Rating: Decent
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On a somewhat related note to the Soboro /DRG earring choice . . .

I have the new OAT GKT, which earring should I TP in opposite wyvern? Let's assume for any situation where Soboro would be used.
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