can someone explain SAM/RNG?Follow

from what i've heard it's just for the fact that you can build TP fast and just fire off a sidewinder and because SAM has a fairly decent ranged rating, and /RNG gives acc. i was just wondering what else there is to it if there is anything.

Somewhere I have a post explaining this. >_>

For level 75 parties and events (where applicable):

Sams with yoichi can be insanely powerful. For everyone one else, there are GK and polearms.

As has been alluded to, the 2 hand buff (etc) has simply given sams much better options plus 2.5 years (?) back ranged attacks were stronger than today.



Sam/rng slightly weaker

Sam with GK or Pole much stronger




Edited, Dec 14th 2009 3:06pm by Taurusrexx

yoichi SAM = SAM/WAR or SAM/DRG. the whole point of yoichi is to spam namas. the whole point of subbing RNG is getting access to sidewinder.

re: "lol yoichi", see this post and draw the conclusions i hinted at in the parenthetical edit. also remember that namas has a fixed enmity generation value. if you're spamming 1k namas arrows in a small group activity, instead of generating roughly 4000 CE and 1300 VE every namas arrow, you'll generate 180 CE and 480 VE (in other words, 1 other WS--gekko, sidewinder, whatever--generates about 7 times as much hate as 1 namas arrow). that's awesome.

I'll be looking for you to post that.






Edited, Dec 14th 2009 6:51pm by Taurusrexx

Edited, Apr 16th 2010 12:23am by Taurusrexx

in the post i linked to, i explained how the soboro namas spammer could increase his damage by 50% by simply capping melee ACC and averaging a modest 4.5 strikes per WS (with SAM roll! i regularly had a 5-hit in my old einherjar ls due to SAM roll--the apoc DRK ls leader insisted on it in our pt. you can bet i averaged fewer than 4 strikes per WS -_-). i didn't even mention namas macro improvements (which this gimp yoichi SAM surely must have needed considering he played so god awful), and i made no effort to account for aggressiveness in targeting.

show me how you can increase the polearm SAM in that parse's damage by 40% and i'll take the "lol namas damage" seriously. you can opine about the utility of parses, but this is theorycrafting. cythriell's melee average was 193. 193/1.25/94 = 1.6, so he had about 640~ ATT from food, chaos roll, minuet--is he to spam red curry to improve? crit% was 16%, so he's not going to get there via crits. maybe he needs to WS more aggressively? no way, he averaged 3.2 hits per WS, that's undeniably strong. WS average was 1545... is he going to get 40% more damage by raising that? by switching from tomoe to leviathan's?

couple all that with the fact that this polearm SAM gimps his parties with minuet and SAM roll which disproportionately favor him over the namas user, and it seems incontrovertible that SAM/DRG namas spam > polearm SAM. and there's no situational aspect here--lower the buffs and the namas SAM keeps GK ACC and ATT, while the polearm SAM starts whiffing.

in the right context i buy amano > yoichi SAM, or apoc > yoichi SAM, but polearm SAM falls universally below the potential of yoichi. piercing bonus can't make up the difference when the big shiny WS is piercing.

A polearm sam built to the T compared to a Yochi sam is hands down polearm. I have a parse of said competition that I posted in a thread not to long ago, there on our server even. I was sad by the low performance of Yochi.

Potential Possibility and Projected proformances are never as they seem, Im not trying to tell you your wrong only conveying when I have seen, I would love you get you in and have you see Cyth's Sam in action I wasnt sure if you took into account Cyth was on a 4-hit the whole time.

That SAM was making some pretty blatant mistakes though. Which is just more evidence that parses only mean "this person did better than that person", not "this gear works better than that gear".

doesn't namas get an ACC bonus anyway? i'm not sure that it does, but i have a feeling it does (i've read some things suggesting it, but they could have meant that the people that use it always use a lot of RACC). i'd merit archery with yoichi just b/c i'd certainly level RNG to 75 if i had it.

Yes, Namas gets a racc bonus.

Edited, Apr 16th 2010 12:04am by Taurusrexx

Merits also seems a bit like wasted effort regarding yochi since the appeal seems to spam a hateless WS with pretty impressive modifiers.

Perks of Yochi
Hateless
40% str and agi (both strong, useful stats)
2.75 multiplier
piercing
ranged attack bonuses, 1fstr=2str
119 base damage weapon skill (+~54 damage base str/agi)

Add in gear like osode, s. kotes, hachi pants/shoes you can easily get high damage namas numbers with no hate faster than you cold with a GK.

I'm not sure how much YGK's attack bonus would put it ahead, but Yochi definitely has substantially higher damage before multpliers, with a stronger multiplier. And while you could argue 75% str on YGK is better, yochi has higher weapon rank and gets more fstr (twice as easily as GK), plus it gets the added 40% from your agi before stacking stats.

Definitely requires a different style of playing sam to max out.

I'd still go /RNG with Yoichinoyumi. Barrage (and a possible x3 Barrage) is way too amazing to leave aside. Not to mention the major Acc bonus, which allows a couple of gear exchange to counter the loss of the attack/haste(?) bonuses from the other subs (Byrnie +1 for example comes to mind)

Also gotta consider juggling between full R.Att/STR Namas and full R.att/STR Sidewinder, making use of the bow's natural R.Acc plus the R.Acc bonus from Namas aftermath effect, meaning you can easily counter Sidewinder's R.Acc penalty.

Edited, Dec 17th 2009 7:22am by sbrubles

How would polearm take more thought? It's just a generic 2-hander multihit WS build with gimp acc, the only trick is you want to keep a 5 hit (whereas most retain a 6 hit).

Yochi would be more confusing since it doesn't follow the typical build patterns for a ranged WS (since most require tons of racc and have weaker stat modifiers).

Also, /rng would prolly fail to /war or /drg since sam can use soboro to great efficiency to spam 4/5 hit yochis in as litle as 2 attack rounds. Were you to be fighting where you weren't meleeing at all, then /rng would work, but unlike a rng, sam doesn't really want to RA for its TP.

If you were purely RAing for TP you could use 120 arrows and 29stp in gear to get 25tp a shot, which could rather interesting and easily attained. You could also use a rondo with 16stp with sam's roll to get ~33.3 tp per shot (lucky or 6+ would do it) which could be pretty crazy TP gain when you could barrage into enough tp to sekki yourself.

Edit:
lol made this wall of text and only after that I read Shinta's post and realized I misunderstood Req's post. Yes, by suggesting /RNG with Yoichi I did mean meleeing + Barrage for TP, Namas + Sidewinder for WS, as Shinta said.







Well lets think of it for a minute. I'm not even questioning zerg fights cuz in that case /DRG or /WAR wouldn't stand a chance against /RNG, assuming a Yoichi SAM.

Also not gonna get into non zerged HNMs cuz I find it somewhat silly that someone would have Yoichi and not have RNG to use the bow on longer fights, or that a SAM would have wasted all that gil on it instead of Amano if he does not have RNG.

So merits...
* /WAR won't speed up TP building while with Soboro, but it will raise DMG dealt by both meleeing and WSing;

* /DRG will offer 5% haste, Jump and High Jump, 10 accuracy, 10 attack, all of which are amazing for the TP build;

* /RNG will give 22 acc, which should allow a meriting SAM to swap off hauby in exchange of maybe a Byrnie +1 to make up for the attack loss, Barrage - which will take advantage of the relic's hidden effect, allowing up to 4.5k Barrages (on a long CD) while building instant TP, and will grant Sidewinder, which is more DMGing yet much less accurate then Namas.

Without further analysis, I think we can take /WAR away from the competition. It will loose. /DRG seems to build TP faster, even because that 5% haste doesn't depend on luck with Barrages. So I think it's between a slightly faster and safer TP build, against major WS DMG (firing Sidewinders with Namas accuracy) + possible absurd Barrage DMG.

Edit:
Lets take a half hour interval:
* a /DRG would have gotten 30 Jumps, rounding up to favor /DRG, that's around 60 hits. On a 6hit build, that's 10 extra WSs
* a /RNG would have gotten 6 Barrages, anywhere between 1.5k and 4.5k. The Barrages can be assumed as 6 instant WSs. Due to firing delay, if you do not open a fight with Barrage after finishing the previous with a WS, you'll rely heavily on Sekkanoki to make this work.

Namas DMG would be around the same for both, however /RNG has the option of using Namas > Sidewinder > Sidewinder > Namas > Sidewinder > Sidewinder, and so on. The amount of Sidewinders between Namas would depend on how fast you're building TP, but basically assuming you always toss a Namas right before Aftermath effect wears off, you can use both Barrage and Sidewinder with full R.Acc, meaning you can easily swap off every single piece of R.Acc gear for R.Att/STR.

I do not remember how much DMG we can average on each 2hit jump and I don't know how much can we expect from a well geared SAM's Namas, so I can't go beyond this by myself.

Edited, Dec 17th 2009 1:21pm by sbrubles

Edited, Dec 17th 2009 1:32pm by sbrubles

idk, don't forget about Fuma Shurikin NIN/RNG!

the triple/2.5ple dmg proc rate is like 5%~ or below. won't make any difference at all to the comparison.

also, (524/110)+1.7+1.1 = 7.5~ seconds to fire off a barrage with yoichi. at 157~ delay, that's about 3 attack rounds you miss (so about 6 soboro swings). given the small chance at full hit barrages, this means that the well-hasted yoichi SAM/RNG would end up doing less damage by using barrage than just letting it sit.

Even so, I was expecting a lot more then that, to actually make what I was saying work correctly. Yeah, I guess not even Yoichi can save /RNG for merits if the hidden effect proc rate is anywhere around these number you guys are saying.

Edited, Dec 18th 2009 5:47am by sbrubles