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can someone explain SAM/RNG?Follow

#1 Dec 11 2009 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
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from what i've heard it's just for the fact that you can build TP fast and just fire off a sidewinder and because SAM has a fairly decent ranged rating, and /RNG gives acc. i was just wondering what else there is to it if there is anything.
#2 Dec 11 2009 at 11:30 AM Rating: Decent
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I used to be good because you could use soboro to gain tp quickly (150%+ for any reasonable chance of landing WS), but get the dmg of a stronger weapon on WS and piercing bonus w/ bow. Now that they buffed YGK there is no point in doing it since you can get higher total WS dmg/time just WSing with soboro. In addition you're able to use /DRG, don't to move out of melee range to get best WS dmg, don't have to merit archery, don't have to own/carry an entire other set of gear, etc etc.


tl;dr: SAM/RNG is dead.
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#3 Dec 11 2009 at 4:44 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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shintasama wrote:
tl;dr: SAM/RNG is dead.
Somewhere I have a post explaining this. >_>
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#4narusegwa, Posted: Dec 14 2009 at 2:02 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) SAM/RNG is not dead:/ if you have decent gears and archery merits like I do. you can still out dmg any polearm/GKT SAM at 55~64 ish:/..
#5 Dec 14 2009 at 5:01 PM Rating: Good
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For level 75 parties and events (where applicable):

Sams with yoichi can be insanely powerful. For everyone one else, there are GK and polearms.

As has been alluded to, the 2 hand buff (etc) has simply given sams much better options plus 2.5 years (?) back ranged attacks were stronger than today.



Sam/rng slightly weaker

Sam with GK or Pole much stronger




Edited, Dec 14th 2009 3:06pm by Taurusrexx
#6 Dec 14 2009 at 5:05 PM Rating: Default
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#7 Dec 14 2009 at 7:00 PM Rating: Good
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Taurusrexx wrote:
For level 75 parties and events (where applicable):

Sams with yoichi can be insanely powerful. For everyone one else, there are GK and polearms.

As has been alluded to, the 2 hand buff (etc) has simply given sams much better options plus 2.5 years (?) back ranged attacks were stronger than today.



Sam/rng slightly weaker

Sam with GK or Pole much stronger




Edited, Dec 14th 2009 3:06pm by Taurusrexx


yoichi SAM = SAM/WAR or SAM/DRG. the whole point of yoichi is to spam namas. the whole point of subbing RNG is getting access to sidewinder.

re: "lol yoichi", see this post and draw the conclusions i hinted at in the parenthetical edit. also remember that namas has a fixed enmity generation value. if you're spamming 1k namas arrows in a small group activity, instead of generating roughly 4000 CE and 1300 VE every namas arrow, you'll generate 180 CE and 480 VE (in other words, 1 other WS--gekko, sidewinder, whatever--generates about 7 times as much hate as 1 namas arrow). that's awesome.
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#8 Dec 14 2009 at 8:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm the tank in most of the stuff I do on SAM already, and I care very little about having hate in merit parties in particular. I'm fine getting more hate if I can do more dmg and I honestly believe that a fully pimped levi SAM would significantly outdo yoichi vs birds. In the situations that I do care about not having hate I wouldn't use Soboro, and if you're going to sit back and just fire you'd be better off RNG main w/ Coronach ya?

Yoichi (Shigeto+4) is like picking up Ragnarok, sure it's better than Subduer, but Subduer wasn't a good option to begin with. "insanely powerful" is certainly not what I'd use to describe it.

Edited, Dec 14th 2009 9:29pm by shintasama
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#9 Dec 14 2009 at 8:47 PM Rating: Good
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shintasama wrote:
I'm the tank in most of the stuff I do on SAM already, and I care very little about having hate in merit parties in particular. I'm fine getting more hate if I can do more dmg and I honestly believe that a fully pimped levi SAM would significantly outdo yoichi vs birds. In the situations that I do care about not having hate I wouldn't use Soboro, and if you're going to sit back and just fire you'd be better off RNG main w/ Coronach ya?

Yoichi (Shigeto+4) is like picking up Ragnarok, sure it's better than Subduer, but Subduer wasn't a good option to begin with. "insanely powerful" is certainly not what I'd use to describe it.

Edited, Dec 14th 2009 9:29pm by shintasama



I'll be looking for you to post that.






Edited, Dec 14th 2009 6:51pm by Taurusrexx

Edited, Apr 16th 2010 12:23am by Taurusrexx
#10 Dec 14 2009 at 10:19 PM Rating: Decent
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I have a parse of me doing 1.6% under a yoichi SAM, while using soboro (I don't actually consider it any more valid than the crappy e-peen parses on BG either). I'm pretty sure a decent levi SAM beats my soboro build by quit a bit more than 1.6% vs birds though.
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Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#11 Dec 15 2009 at 12:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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shintasama wrote:
I'm the tank in most of the stuff I do on SAM already, and I care very little about having hate in merit parties in particular. I'm fine getting more hate if I can do more dmg and I honestly believe that a fully pimped levi SAM would significantly outdo yoichi vs birds. In the situations that I do care about not having hate I wouldn't use Soboro, and if you're going to sit back and just fire you'd be better off RNG main w/ Coronach ya?

Yoichi (Shigeto+4) is like picking up Ragnarok, sure it's better than Subduer, but Subduer wasn't a good option to begin with. "insanely powerful" is certainly not what I'd use to describe it.

Edited, Dec 14th 2009 9:29pm by shintasama


in the post i linked to, i explained how the soboro namas spammer could increase his damage by 50% by simply capping melee ACC and averaging a modest 4.5 strikes per WS (with SAM roll! i regularly had a 5-hit in my old einherjar ls due to SAM roll--the apoc DRK ls leader insisted on it in our pt. you can bet i averaged fewer than 4 strikes per WS -_-). i didn't even mention namas macro improvements (which this gimp yoichi SAM surely must have needed considering he played so god awful), and i made no effort to account for aggressiveness in targeting.

show me how you can increase the polearm SAM in that parse's damage by 40% and i'll take the "lol namas damage" seriously. you can opine about the utility of parses, but this is theorycrafting. cythriell's melee average was 193. 193/1.25/94 = 1.6, so he had about 640~ ATT from food, chaos roll, minuet--is he to spam red curry to improve? crit% was 16%, so he's not going to get there via crits. maybe he needs to WS more aggressively? no way, he averaged 3.2 hits per WS, that's undeniably strong. WS average was 1545... is he going to get 40% more damage by raising that? by switching from tomoe to leviathan's?

couple all that with the fact that this polearm SAM gimps his parties with minuet and SAM roll which disproportionately favor him over the namas user, and it seems incontrovertible that SAM/DRG namas spam > polearm SAM. and there's no situational aspect here--lower the buffs and the namas SAM keeps GK ACC and ATT, while the polearm SAM starts whiffing.

in the right context i buy amano > yoichi SAM, or apoc > yoichi SAM, but polearm SAM falls universally below the potential of yoichi. piercing bonus can't make up the difference when the big shiny WS is piercing.
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#12 Dec 15 2009 at 1:16 AM Rating: Default
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You're justifying it with a parse (#1) on players you/I don't know (#2) that don't appear to know what they're doing (#3) from a player (I at least) don't trust (#4)?



pass
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#13 Dec 15 2009 at 1:20 AM Rating: Default
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A polearm sam built to the T compared to a Yochi sam is hands down polearm. I have a parse of said competition that I posted in a thread not to long ago, there on our server even. I was sad by the low performance of Yochi.
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#14 Dec 15 2009 at 1:43 AM Rating: Good
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shintasama wrote:
You're justifying it with a parse (#1) on players you/I don't know (#2) that don't appear to know what they're doing (#3) from a player (I at least) don't trust (#4)?



pass


well, since ad hominem stuff is more relevant than the numbers i provided, and its possible that the polearm SAM was taking 5 seconds to get to each mob, maybe my claims AREN'T vastly more well-supported than your biased speculation. or, theorycrafting can be applied to parses and we know how pDIF and base damage work, so we can look at the potential of namas spam and polearm SAM.
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#15 Dec 15 2009 at 1:57 AM Rating: Default
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Potential Possibility and Projected proformances are never as they seem, Im not trying to tell you your wrong only conveying when I have seen, I would love you get you in and have you see Cyth's Sam in action I wasnt sure if you took into account Cyth was on a 4-hit the whole time.
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#16 Dec 15 2009 at 2:35 AM Rating: Good
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Deboro wrote:
Potential Possibility and Projected proformances are never as they seem, Im not trying to tell you your wrong only conveying when I have seen, I would love you get you in and have you see Cyth's Sam in action I wasnt sure if you took into account Cyth was on a 4-hit the whole time.


well, that's the thing. the stronger cyth actually is, the less room polearm SAM has to improve in comparison to the namas arrow SAM. the really bad part of the namas guy in your parse is that he averaged more than 6 hits between WSs, which means he WSd less often than a guy with a 7-hit setup, but he had a 5-hit! that, and his atrocious ACC is really hard to explain... if you get yoichi with the intention of using it on SAM, you'd think you'd at least have GK and archery merits... i have to wonder if he isn't one of those guys who just imagines his ACC is capped everywhere and doesn't wear any ACC gear or something.
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#17 Dec 15 2009 at 4:26 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Deboro wrote:
A polearm sam built to the T compared to a Yochi sam is hands down polearm. I have a parse of said competition that I posted in a thread not to long ago, there on our server even. I was sad by the low performance of Yochi.
That SAM was making some pretty blatant mistakes though. Which is just more evidence that parses only mean "this person did better than that person", not "this gear works better than that gear".
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#18 Dec 15 2009 at 5:30 PM Rating: Decent
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milich wrote:
Deboro wrote:
Potential Possibility and Projected proformances are never as they seem, Im not trying to tell you your wrong only conveying when I have seen, I would love you get you in and have you see Cyth's Sam in action I wasnt sure if you took into account Cyth was on a 4-hit the whole time.


well, that's the thing. the stronger cyth actually is, the less room polearm SAM has to improve in comparison to the namas arrow SAM. the really bad part of the namas guy in your parse is that he averaged more than 6 hits between WSs, which means he WSd less often than a guy with a 7-hit setup, but he had a 5-hit! that, and his atrocious ACC is really hard to explain... if you get yoichi with the intention of using it on SAM, you'd think you'd at least have GK and archery merits... i have to wonder if he isn't one of those guys who just imagines his ACC is capped everywhere and doesn't wear any ACC gear or something.


With zero merits in Archery and 8 in GK, a 22% haste Sam/war sobo/yoichi build can hit 415 acc before food while at the same time having a Namas WS build that would reach 493 racc (also before food.)
#19 Dec 15 2009 at 11:01 PM Rating: Good
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Taurusrexx wrote:
milich wrote:
Deboro wrote:
Potential Possibility and Projected proformances are never as they seem, Im not trying to tell you your wrong only conveying when I have seen, I would love you get you in and have you see Cyth's Sam in action I wasnt sure if you took into account Cyth was on a 4-hit the whole time.


well, that's the thing. the stronger cyth actually is, the less room polearm SAM has to improve in comparison to the namas arrow SAM. the really bad part of the namas guy in your parse is that he averaged more than 6 hits between WSs, which means he WSd less often than a guy with a 7-hit setup, but he had a 5-hit! that, and his atrocious ACC is really hard to explain... if you get yoichi with the intention of using it on SAM, you'd think you'd at least have GK and archery merits... i have to wonder if he isn't one of those guys who just imagines his ACC is capped everywhere and doesn't wear any ACC gear or something.


With zero merits in Archery and 8 in GK, a 22% haste Sam/war sobo/yoichi build can hit 415 acc before food while at the same time having a Namas WS build that would reach 493 racc (also before food.)


doesn't namas get an ACC bonus anyway? i'm not sure that it does, but i have a feeling it does (i've read some things suggesting it, but they could have meant that the people that use it always use a lot of RACC). i'd merit archery with yoichi just b/c i'd certainly level RNG to 75 if i had it.
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#20 Dec 16 2009 at 4:39 AM Rating: Decent
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milich wrote:
doesn't namas get an ACC bonus anyway? i'm not sure that it does, but i have a feeling it does (i've read some things suggesting it, but they could have meant that the people that use it always use a lot of RACC). i'd merit archery with yoichi just b/c i'd certainly level RNG to 75 if i had it.


Yes. The racc bonus from namas applies on the WS and during the aftermath.



Edited, Apr 18th 2010 1:30am by Taurusrexx
#24 Dec 16 2009 at 4:53 AM Rating: Default
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Yes, Namas gets a racc bonus.

Edited, Apr 16th 2010 12:04am by Taurusrexx
#26 Dec 16 2009 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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I have to agree with Pahn on this one, for starters, that Yoici SAM in the parse was all kinds of faulty, and has probably never spent much time on forums learning how to really max his SAM. (I said in other thread) but his ACC was obviously the fault of partly due to wearing Askar over Haub+1 (8%loss), and he treated Namas Arrow which potentially has an ACC bonus like all other ranged ws's (excluding SS/SW) like he was firing off Sidewinder's due to how long it took him to shoot each Namas.

Take the best of the best Soboro SAM/DRG, and exchange his YGK for a hateless, big hitting, piercing WS with all the correct WS gear for Namas, and that SAM should take SAM to new heights.

You have the melee weapon that allows SAM to build TP the fastest, with a piercing WS thats actually safer and easier to gear for than Penta is, and you could possibly get away with gearing more for STR/RATT (would need some number crunching to confirm that though).

That build could be used for a number of things that SAM does too (unlike PA SAM), HNM's spring to mind, you could melee & fire off a low hate WS making less hate overall then other DD's.

Youci SAM is very different to a SAM/RNG mainly because:

*You can use /DRG or /WAR
*You can fire off WS's @ 100%TP
*You potentially don't need nearly as much RACC in gear to fire it off, making more room for STR or RATT.
*You can safely be the most aggressive DD in your pty, FT Hasso, with little risk.

I personally think that I could do more impressive things with a Yoici then I could an Amano, just a shame yoici costs in the region of 200M gil.
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