MNK vs WARFollow

1. if you can afford dusk+1 boots you can afford heca+1 boots and hands

2. heca cap > acp helm

3. if you are going to use the acp helm, why not use it to replace wturban as str+2 haste+5?

4. fortitude torque instead of pcc

5. what weaponskill is the war using?

6. you really need to factor in crits. it can sway the numbers by quite a bit.



wtf is the point of this again? which DD is best at birds with pieces of gear under 20mil, who cant crit, and who dont use half their job abilities?

if you arent going to go 100% with all calculations then you may as well just stop, as it will have no impact on which is actually "better" than the other. its like me saying "drk is the best DD cause it has the highest attack". if you dont factor in everything, then your comparison means absolutely nothing.

Replying to some of this:
1. Alky 11 STR > 8 STR of heca hands (KJ-should have mentioned)
2. The ACP helm used for WAR will be stronger than the 11 STR from hecatomb cap. 2% WS is close to 7 STR when the fSTR is already capped, not to mention you can drop acc elsewhere with the WSacc on it.

ACP 1.02x(96+18+58)= 175.44
Heca 1 x (96+18+62)= 176

3. Seems more valueable to have 15wsacc on KJ rather than +2 STR on TP
4. Fort, I'll check the math on that.
5. King's Justice
6. If I can get the exact crit % for 98 and 89 on birds I'll add it in. I'll look in a couple forums however.

You cant exactly predict counter and retaliation. Warcry affects everyone and its a tiny amount, and it depends slightly if you stack it with bezerk or not, it should be terribly insignificant as far as a comparison basis since they both have the JA; but I'd be willing to say it would help mnk 0.1% more. Leaving warcry out, since they both have the ability isnt really like leaving out DRK att bonus......that comparison is ridiculous. Since its time based I could add in Warrior charge (5 min) at 1/189 attacks or 0.53% DA, assuming you have a constant pull rate.


To find out which people complain for the sake of complaining.

Don't forget that since the war is using a 2-handed weapon, his cRatio can go up to ~2.3 before capping. The war won't be capping out even with his higher attack and -20% def.

I'm trying to care enough to complain, but I just don't.




wait, did that count?

Nope, you're still safe.

You play MNK I'm guessing.......

Edited, Dec 10th 2009 8:30pm by doctorugh

Because I like foooood!

Edit: As well as a camp that isn't overcamped most of the time like Birds.

Edit conti: I play MNK and WAR both, or are you @#%^ing blind?

Edited, Dec 10th 2009 7:10pm by Cyth

lag post

Edited, Dec 10th 2009 11:36pm by doctorugh

Lots of math. Errors corrected, but not all of them explicitly noted as such. See bottom for summary stuff.

Mnk

Str 105, dStr = 38, fStr = 9 (caps at 99 str for Faiths)
Also, str should be 110 due to food.

70% haste = 700/1024

Delay (2 hands) = 413 * 324/1024 = 130.68 per round, rounding up to 131 delay (must keep this delay to account for kicks vs DA properly)

Total Accuracy: 391 (421 w/Focus)
With Focus: 95%/95% ~= 95% avg
Without Focus: 91.5%/87% ~= 89.25%

Can drop 14 acc during focus. Unfortunately extra str is useless since we're well past the fStr cap, and can't change out Usu gear without killing the set bonus, requiring a complete rework. So: Change Cuchulain to Forager's (-7 acc). Change Toreador to Ulthalam's (-3 acc). Change Hollow to Merman's (-4 acc). Gain 24 att.


From OP:
Att: 276+16+18+52+17=379 x1.25 + 65 = 538

276 base skill
16 merits
18 ?
55 from half str
17 from usu gear
missing 10 from trait
missing 7 from torque

total: 381 (405 during Focus)

Haven't personally verified whether food is stacked before or after Berserk (or if I did it was so long ago that I can't properly remember). I thought it was before, but I could be wrong. Will use your value of after.

Att from kabobs will be 60 (str already added earlier).

Total: 465 without Berserk, 536 with Berserk.

Using -20% def:
Def: 258/262

cRatios:
Berserk: 1.7775 / 1.6958 ~= 1.7367 avg
no Berserk: 1.5023 / 1.4248 ~= 1.4636 avg

Damage needs to be processed in 5 minute cycles for Berserk + Focus.


Asuran Fists:

(Berserk):

* Switching from Usukane Somen to MKE head is enough to cap accuracy in all cases, even without Focus. Net +2 acc over cap; net +1 str, net +5 att.
* Black Tathlum: Odd dex means +1 dex gives you another +1 acc. Net +7 acc, +9 att.
* Should be swapping to Bando Kote for 22 att, rather than the 20 of O.Kote. Losing 10 acc there. Net -3 acc, +31 att.
* Virtuoso Belt for 12 acc/4 att (not 5). Net +9 acc, +35 att, -6 str. Not the best trade, but we can make use of the spare accuracy with:
* Cuchulain's Mantle changed to Forager's: Net +2 acc, +50 att, -7 str.
* Swap Brutal for a Merman's Earring since Asuran can't DA. +2 acc, +56 att, -7 str. [@103 str; 99 str caps Faiths]

Difference in Str doesn't matter, since neither fStr nor WSC will change, though there will be a slight loss of att (-4).

Extra accuracy isn't needed, and extra .1 FTP on Asuran is pretty much no net gain over 7 att from torque, so not swapping neck pieces.

Slightly different during Focus: Already using Forager's, so no gain from that. The rest can remain the same. Gain of +37 att.


Weaponskill Attack: 502 without Berserk, 601 with Berserk.
Attack needed to cap cRatio: 594/616 (lvl 81/82)

Only use Boost when Berserk is down.

Net attack for weaponskill: 584/601

Using -20% def:
Def: 258/262

cRatios:
Berserk: 2.0 / 1.9439 ~= 1.9719 avg
no Berserk: 1.9636 / 1.8790 ~= 1.9213 avg

14 WSC

Base damage: 44 + 9 + 14 = 67

Average number of hits: 7.6

Average damage:
Berserk: 1004
no Berserk: 978


TP per hit: 56 * 1.08 = 6.0 (5.9 on weaponskills)

Minimum of 14 hits needed between weaponskills.

Hits per round: 2 * 1.5 * 1.05 = 3.15 + .15 for capped KA = 3.3.

Rounds needed per WS: 4.25
Overhead hits: 2.3 * 0.5 + 3.3 * 0.5 = 2.8 hits = .85 round

Rounds between each weaponskill: 5.1 (before accuracy is considered)
Hits: 16.1
Kicks: 0.77

Accuracy: 95% (Focus) / 89.25% (no Focus)

Rounds w/Focus: 5.37
Rounds wo/Focus: 5.71

Time per WS cycle w/Focus: 131 * 5.37 = 704
Time per WS cycle wo/Focus: 131 * 5.71 = 748

Add 60 delay for WS and 60 delay for Boost (during Focus phase only)

Total Time per WS w/Focus: 824
Total Time per WS wo/Focus: 808

Damage per hit during Focus (no Berserk): 77.57
Damage per kick during Focus (no Berserk): 64.40
Damage per hit during Berserk (no Focus): 92.05
Damage per kick during Berserk (no Focus): 76.41


Damage per WS cycle w/Focus: 16.1 * 77.57 + .77 * 64.40 + 978 = 2,276.5
Damage per WS cycle w/Berserk: 16.1 * 92.05 + .77 * 76.41 + 1004 = 2,544.8

Crit rate: 11% w/Focus, 12% w/Berserk (Cuch mantle pushes you over a crit tier).

Adjusted damage per WS cycle:
Focus: 1,298.47 * .89 + 1,298.47 * .11 * (2.4636 / 1.4636) + 978 = 2,374.1
Berserk: 1,540.84 * .88 + 1,540.84 * .12 * (2.7367 / 1.7367) + 1004 = 2,651.3

WS cycles per Focus: 7200 delay / 824 = 8.74
WS cycles per Berserk: 10,800 delay / 808 = 13.37

Total damage (offensive) per 5 minute cycle: 8.74 * 2,374.1 + 13.37 * 2,651.3 = 56,197.5

DPS: 55,843.84 / 300 = 187.3


War

Haste: 78% = 780/1024
Delay: 504 * 244/1024 = 120.1, round up to 121 (actually think it might round down, but I used round up for mnk, so staying consistant here).

Excess hits per WS: .22 + 1.22 * 0.5 = 0.83

Fake 6-hit build (+21 Store TP, need +22 for true 6-hit)

Hits per WS: 5.83

Hits per round: 1.22

Rounds per WS: 4.78

Average accuracy (corrected for DA): 95.35%

Adjust # rounds for acc: 4.78 / .9535 = 5.01

Time per WS cycle: 5.01 * 121 + 60 = 666

Attack (taking what was given): 517 / 630

Using -20% def:
Def: 258/262

cRatio wo/Berserk: 1.7039 / 1.6233 ~= 1.6636 avg
cRatio w/Berserk: 2.1419 / 2.0546 ~= 2.0983 avg

Base damage: 96 + 11 = 107
{Don't feel like calculating how much damage is lost from going over 100 TP}

Avg damage wo/Berserk: 178
Avg damage w/Berserk: 224.5

Crit rate: 13%

Damage adjusted for crit rate:
no Berserk: 178 * .87 + 178 * .13 * (2.6636 / 1.6636) = 191.91
Berserk: 224.5 * .87 + 224.5 * .13 * (3 / 2.0983) = 237.04


% time w/Berserk: 180/250 = 72%
Avg damage per hit: 224.4

Using provided weaponskill damage number:
Damage done: 5.61 * 224.4 + 1175.65 = 2,434.5

DPS: 2,434.5 / (666/60) = 219.3


Summary 1:
Mnk DPS: 187.3
War DPS: 219.3

War is moving 33% faster (due to higher haste with Hasso), and doing 17% more damage.


Secondary factors

Next, Counters/Retaliations. This will more heavily favor War.

Damage split is roughly 54/46 right now. Assume for the sake of simplicity that mobs will attack each character with that same frequency distribution.

Over a 5 minute cycle (and given that we're assuming a continuous stream of mobs), a maximum of 75 attacks can occur (4 second delay for mobs). Approximately 1/3 of all attacks will be supplanted by reflecting Dia III or using a TP move. That leaves 50 melee attacks. Given a max 95% hit rate, that's 47.5 hits.

Distribute them between the war and the mnk as: 25.65 on war, 21.85 on mnk.

War can retaliate an estimated 50% of the time, modified by accuracy to 47% of the time given the above accuracy rates (Zanshin not allowed). That means 12.0555 retailiations, with accompanying TP. Given hit requirements, that's essentially 2 additional WS cycles.

WS cycles per 300 seconds (base): 27.027
Increase to 29.027

Total damage: 70,666
DPS: 235.6

And while we're at it, add in Meditate. Due to rounding, Meditate is essentially 1/2 a weaponskill every 3 minutes. Over 5 minutes, that's an extra 0.833 weaponskills.

Damage: 70,666 + 1175.65 * 0.83 = 71,645.7
DPS: 238.8


The mnk has a counter rate with Counterstance of approximately 60%, modified by accuracy. Average accuracy over 5 minutes is 91.55%. Number of counters would then be 21.85 * 60% * 91.55% = 12.0022.

Avg cRatio: 1.62746
Damage per counter: 86.255 >> (correct for crits; this assumes that there is no crit rate bonus on counters) 92.61

Damage: 92.61 * 12 = 1111.4

Total damage: 55,843.84 + 1111.4
DPS: 189.5


Summary 2:

War is now doing 26% more damage. Given the 33% attack speed difference, and the fact that the war build isn't as heavily optimised as the mnk build, we can pretty much say that the haste from Hasso is more or less the entirety of the advantage that war has.

Max number of attempted rounds is 8 (for WS or melee, hit or miss); since no other WS hits 8 times, no. The only other place that comes to mind where is matters is if you have DW KC + off hand <anything else>, if you get 8x KC hits your offhand won't even swing (not that you should be ever DW KC, or mainhand it if you do).
Varies by gear.
Seeing how you're doing this on the SAM forum, can I request Amano SAM?

Edited, Dec 11th 2009 7:02pm by shintasama

I dont know much about optimal SAM or exactly what the att/acc bonus is on your WS. If you gave me the WS equation and TP/WS gear I could.