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Askar or Dusk - Which is right for me?Follow

#1 Dec 06 2009 at 10:00 PM Rating: Good
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SAM/WAR
Base STR:67
Base DEX:75
G.Katana Merits: 4/8
Uskikimaru/Soboro
Rose Strap
W.Turban
Chivalrous Chain
Fowling Earring
Brutal Earring
Haubergeon
Rajas Ring
Iota Ring
Amemet Mantle +1
Swift Belt
Byakko's Haidate
Fuma Sune-Ate

With the listed stats and equipment how would the +1-2% hit rate increase from askar's dex compare to the extra +1% haste on dusk in situations where I'm not getting any accuracy buffs from other jobs? I feel like there should be a clear winner but it's hard to tell with the limited parses I've done so far.


#2 Dec 06 2009 at 10:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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use this chart to find the % increase in DoT X amount of haste will get you, as described in the post. over 50% haste, dusk should win easily assuming the movement speed doesn't keep you from autotargeting. also, consider leveling and using /DRG instead of /WAR.
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#3 Dec 06 2009 at 11:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Thank you for the reply, and link. It was very informative, but it makes me sad to see my dusk gloves relegated to only being used on my ninja during the day and the rare times I'm in a very high haste situation.
#4 Dec 07 2009 at 12:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Nevarie wrote:
Thank you for the reply, and link. It was very informative, but it makes me sad to see my dusk gloves relegated to only being used on my ninja during the day and the rare times I'm in a very high haste situation.


well, with your gear and wyvern earring, you're at 50%~ haste just from RDM or WHM haste and hasso. it's not going to be a huge difference either way, really.
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#5 Dec 07 2009 at 1:33 AM Rating: Good
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You know, if you also got an Askar hat, you'd be right at the point where you would start hitting serious crit gains from DEX on birds.

I wouldn't personally give up 2% haste just for those crit gains most of the time, but if you're already leaning away from the dusk gloves because of the movement penalty (which frankly, is a dealbreaker for me; it's just too annoying, whether it has consequences on damage output or not), then it's something to think about. With the two Askar Pieces, a Cuchulain's Mantle would come with +4% crits on birds, which is certainly not terrible.

*edit* Actually, I think with a Soboro I would give up the haste for the Askar, since the STR and and crits are more significant, and in the high-haste environments where 2% haste would pull meaningfully ahead, things are going too fast for me anyway and I'm wasting tp all over the place.

Edited, Dec 7th 2009 2:39am by Caesura
#6 Dec 07 2009 at 2:37 AM Rating: Default
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Caesura wrote:
You know, if you also got an Askar hat, you'd be right at the point where you would start hitting serious crit gains from DEX on birds.

I wouldn't personally give up 2% haste just for those crit gains most of the time, but if you're already leaning away from the dusk gloves because of the movement penalty (which frankly, is a dealbreaker for me; it's just too annoying, whether it has consequences on damage output or not), then it's something to think about. With the two Askar Pieces, a Cuchulain's Mantle would come with +4% crits on birds, which is certainly not terrible.

*edit* Actually, I think with a Soboro I would give up the haste for the Askar, since the STR and and crits are more significant, and in the high-haste environments where 2% haste would pull meaningfully ahead, things are going too fast for me anyway and I'm wasting tp all over the place.

Edited, Dec 7th 2009 2:39am by Caesura
I'm rolling with soboro /DRG setup right now. @ 34% with Hasso up but I <3 the extra crits more.
Main Soboro
Sub Crit Strap (3% one)
Range Lightning Bow+1
Ammo X
Head Askar
Neck Ancient Torque
Earrings Bushi-Wyvern Earring/Brutal
Body Kirin's Osode
Hands Askar mano's
Rings Thunder Ring+ Rajas
Back Cuchly mantle
Waist Velocity Belt
Legs Byakko's Haidate
Feet Usukane
415Acc--27%Critical Hitrate--24%(+10%) armor Haste

Here's a hint when you got Marchx2, RDM haste and soboro, lol spam WS macro's. IF you get a awesome dancer spam harder.
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#7 Dec 07 2009 at 3:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Coyoteblackzero wrote:
Caesura wrote:
You know, if you also got an Askar hat, you'd be right at the point where you would start hitting serious crit gains from DEX on birds.

I wouldn't personally give up 2% haste just for those crit gains most of the time, but if you're already leaning away from the dusk gloves because of the movement penalty (which frankly, is a dealbreaker for me; it's just too annoying, whether it has consequences on damage output or not), then it's something to think about. With the two Askar Pieces, a Cuchulain's Mantle would come with +4% crits on birds, which is certainly not terrible.

*edit* Actually, I think with a Soboro I would give up the haste for the Askar, since the STR and and crits are more significant, and in the high-haste environments where 2% haste would pull meaningfully ahead, things are going too fast for me anyway and I'm wasting tp all over the place.

Edited, Dec 7th 2009 2:39am by Caesura
I'm rolling with soboro /DRG setup right now. @ 34% with Hasso up but I <3 the extra crits more.
Main Soboro
Sub Crit Strap (3% one)
Range Lightning Bow+1
Ammo X
Head Askar
Neck Ancient Torque
Earrings Bushi-Wyvern Earring/Brutal
Body Kirin's Osode
Hands Askar mano's
Rings Thunder Ring+ Rajas
Back Cuchly mantle
Waist Velocity Belt
Legs Byakko's Haidate
Feet Usukane
415Acc--27%Critical Hitrate--24%(+10%) armor Haste

Here's a hint when you got Marchx2, RDM haste and soboro, lol spam WS macro's. IF you get a awesome dancer spam harder.


if i told you that tachi: gekko, yukikaze, and kasha cannot critical hit, would you still wear crit strap on SAM?
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#8 Dec 07 2009 at 4:37 AM Rating: Decent
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milich wrote:
Coyoteblackzero wrote:
Caesura wrote:
You know, if you also got an Askar hat, you'd be right at the point where you would start hitting serious crit gains from DEX on birds.

I wouldn't personally give up 2% haste just for those crit gains most of the time, but if you're already leaning away from the dusk gloves because of the movement penalty (which frankly, is a dealbreaker for me; it's just too annoying, whether it has consequences on damage output or not), then it's something to think about. With the two Askar Pieces, a Cuchulain's Mantle would come with +4% crits on birds, which is certainly not terrible.

*edit* Actually, I think with a Soboro I would give up the haste for the Askar, since the STR and and crits are more significant, and in the high-haste environments where 2% haste would pull meaningfully ahead, things are going too fast for me anyway and I'm wasting tp all over the place.

Edited, Dec 7th 2009 2:39am by Caesura
I'm rolling with soboro /DRG setup right now. @ 34% with Hasso up but I <3 the extra crits more.
Main Soboro
Sub Crit Strap (3% one)
Range Lightning Bow+1
Ammo X
Head Askar
Neck Ancient Torque
Earrings Bushi-Wyvern Earring/Brutal
Body Kirin's Osode
Hands Askar mano's
Rings Thunder Ring+ Rajas
Back Cuchly mantle
Waist Velocity Belt
Legs Byakko's Haidate
Feet Usukane
415Acc--27%Critical Hitrate--24%(+10%) armor Haste

Here's a hint when you got Marchx2, RDM haste and soboro, lol spam WS macro's. IF you get a awesome dancer spam harder.


if i told you that tachi: gekko, yukikaze, and kasha cannot critical hit, would you still wear crit strap on SAM?
Yea ^^ cause I already know that they dont. Don't wear it for Top notching DD, (SAM/WAR Tomoe Usukane+ meat will surely do some damage Vs this) I wear it because its excitement. I've become very bored with being the best DD in the party. Merits= Have a good time. LSEVENTS= Serious Face! >:|
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#9 Dec 07 2009 at 4:50 AM Rating: Decent
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well, at least you know it's a bad idea. the things you're calling "fun" sound disingenuous to me (i think you're just trying to get a reaction from people you don't like), but i suppose seeing the crit rate % number at 18% instead of 15% could be "fun" for someone. and doing less damage without any qualitative / playstyle difference could also be "fun".
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#10 Dec 07 2009 at 5:22 AM Rating: Default
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milich wrote:
well, at least you know it's a bad? idea. the things you're calling "fun" sound disingenuous to me (i think you're just trying to get a reaction from people you don't like?), but i suppose seeing the crit rate % number at 18%26% instead of 15%23% could be "fun" for someone. and doing less damage without any qualitative / playstyle difference could also be "fun".
Since when is fun bad in FFXI? OH, oh, yea, since I started getting sub defaulted for it, yea. mm, I don't really care what ppl I don't like think, I don't like them so why should I? xO ohhhhh maybe thats what fun is.... I need to take another gander.

Edited, Dec 7th 2009 6:25am by Coyoteblackzero
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#11 Dec 07 2009 at 6:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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I used Askar Manopolas to avoid the smallest mistake I can make with being late by small fraction of second switching to running gear. This kind of mistake can add up, nullifying the extra 1% haste on dusk gloves.

also DEX builds probably not that great without unusual DEX gear (Hauby +1, Askar Zucchetto, Manopolas, Byakko's Haidate, and Cuchulain's Mantle). That is, assuming you're Mithra using Polearm in Colibri.

Edited, Dec 7th 2009 4:40am by VZX
#12 Dec 07 2009 at 10:07 AM Rating: Good
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CB0 wrote:
They see me trolling, they hating, rating down and trying to mute me

What, no fruity colors today?
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#13 Dec 07 2009 at 12:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Coyoteblackzero wrote:
milich wrote:
well, at least you know it's a bad? idea. the things you're calling "fun" sound disingenuous to me (i think you're just trying to get a reaction from people you don't like?), but i suppose seeing the crit rate % number at 18%26% instead of 15%23% could be "fun" for someone. and doing less damage without any qualitative / playstyle difference could also be "fun".
Since when is fun bad in FFXI? OH, oh, yea, since I started getting sub defaulted for it, yea. mm, I don't really care what ppl I don't like think, I don't like them so why should I? xO ohhhhh maybe thats what fun is.... I need to take another gander.

Edited, Dec 7th 2009 6:25am by Coyoteblackzero


you have to try harder to troll me. go big or not at all, come on.
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#14 Dec 07 2009 at 12:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Yea only people like me and my Askar Body > all can Troll milich! Cmon!
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#15 Dec 07 2009 at 12:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Caesura wrote:
You know, if you also got an Askar hat, you'd be right at the point where you would start hitting serious crit gains from DEX on birds.

I wouldn't personally give up 2% haste just for those crit gains most of the time, but if you're already leaning away from the dusk gloves because of the movement penalty (which frankly, is a dealbreaker for me; it's just too annoying, whether it has consequences on damage output or not), then it's something to think about. With the two Askar Pieces, a Cuchulain's Mantle would come with +4% crits on birds, which is certainly not terrible.

*edit* Actually, I think with a Soboro I would give up the haste for the Askar, since the STR and and crits are more significant, and in the high-haste environments where 2% haste would pull meaningfully ahead, things are going too fast for me anyway and I'm wasting tp all over the place.

Edited, Dec 7th 2009 2:39am by Caesura


Critical Hit bonus from DEX was not a factor In my thoughts actually. It was the accuracy gained from the DEX. My accuracy is not capped on pretty much anything that's high end VT or above without accuracy buffs or feint.

I did some quick and dirty math of my own based on information from the links Milich provided and came to the conclusion that 4 ACC > 1% Haste until either ACC is capped or total haste exceeds 55%. Does that sound about right to those of you that have spent more time looking at the numbers?
#16 Dec 07 2009 at 12:36 PM Rating: Default
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milich wrote:
Coyoteblackzero wrote:
milich wrote:
well, at least you know it's a bad? idea. the things you're calling "fun" sound disingenuous to me (i think you're just trying to get a reaction from people you don't like?), but i suppose seeing the crit rate % number at 18%26% instead of 15%23% could be "fun" for someone. and doing less damage without any qualitative / playstyle difference could also be "fun".
Since when is fun bad in FFXI? OH, oh, yea, since I started getting sub defaulted for it, yea. mm, I don't really care what ppl I don't like think, I don't like them so why should I? xO ohhhhh maybe thats what fun is.... I need to take another gander.

Edited, Dec 7th 2009 6:25am by Coyoteblackzero


you have to try harder to troll me. go big or not at all, come on.
Ya know just to clear the air on things. I'm really lost on how I'm a troll,"which sounds like a dumbasses excuse for (NEEDING) to respond to some BS" when ppl respond to non-offensive, non-provocative post like this? Seriously? It sounds really hypocritical.
*Not "trolling" just passin some knowledge*
LOL don't ever say "Go Big or not at all" out in public. Its "Go Hard or go home." And no one really even says that anymore. LOL you sound like some teenagers dad trying to impress someone by using 2yo, yes I havent really heard that **** in 2 years outdated ebonics. Lol do you even know who started out saying that? Funkmaster flex, you know who thinks he's cool?........lol neither do I.
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#17 Dec 07 2009 at 1:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I did some quick and dirty math of my own based on information from the links Milich provided and came to the conclusion that 4 ACC > 1% Haste until either ACC is capped or total haste exceeds 55%. Does that sound about right to those of you that have spent more time looking at the numbers?

Yep, 4 ACC is +2% hit rate, which assuming near-capped accuracy (and ignoring Zanshin) will give you slightly more than 2% extra hits landed. 1% haste reduces your delay by 1% of your original delay, which at 55% haste will give you slightly more than 2% extra hits landed.

Zanshin actually skews the numbers a little in favour of haste, though. As a result, a SAM/DRG in "standard" haste gear with 25% gear haste and 10% Hasso haste is going to be reaching the 50%-or-so point where 1% haste beats 4 ACC any time he has any outside haste (meaning, any buffer, pretty much) as long as he leaves Hasso up for everything but emergencies. So, in party situations, it's going to be very rare that the extra haste from Dusk Gloves won't beat the accuracy on Askar gloves, and any time you have two (or, *shiver of delight* three) sources of outside haste, the Dusk wins easily.

That said, I still prefer Askar to Dusk because I just really hate the movement penalty. SAM is my only job without +movement gear, and so feels sluggish already. With Dusk, I just don't want anything to do with it. So, I take the performance hit and wear Askar (which, conveniently, is also prettier).

If you wear the Dusk, though, then Askar still has a place in any "run to the next mob" macro, since it doesn't punish you much if you're slow to switch to Dusk when you get to the mob.
#18 Dec 07 2009 at 2:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Cae-
 
acc	no zanshin	W/ zanshin   %inc from +4acc  current haste for +1haste to win 
0.95	95	        97.14	     1.0000	     always 
0.94	94	        96.57	     1.0059	     always 
0.93	93	        95.99	     1.0119	     16.1638 
0.92	92	        95.42	     1.0120	     16.6638 
0.91	91	        94.85	     1.0121	     17.1638 
0.9	90	        94.28	     1.0121	     17.6638 
0.89	89	        93.70	     1.0122	     18.1638 
0.88	88	        93.13	     1.0123	     18.6638 
0.87	87	        92.56	     1.0124	     19.1638 
0.86	86	        91.99	     1.0124	     19.6638 
0.85	85	        91.41	     1.0125	     20.1638 
0.84	84	        90.84	     1.0126	     20.6638 
0.83	83	        90.27	     1.0127	     21.1638 
0.82	82	        89.70	     1.0128	     21.6638 
0.81	81	        89.12	     1.0128	     22.1638 
0.8	80	        88.55	     1.0129	     22.6638 
0.79	79	        87.88	     1.0141	     29.0980 
0.78	78	        87.21	     1.0154	     35.0655 
0.77	77	        86.52	     1.0157	     36.4276 



CB0-
Wiki wrote:
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion

[quote=CB0]non-offensive, non-provocative post like ****

Edited, Dec 7th 2009 3:49pm by shintasama
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#19 Dec 07 2009 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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I guess the best solution if at all possible, is to wear Askar or Ace's head, Askar hands and a speed belt.

Question:
If you have 26% haste in gear, how much of the final 1% do you actually get?
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#20 Dec 07 2009 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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Sandmasterr wrote:
I guess the best solution if at all possible, is to wear Askar or Ace's head, Askar hands and a speed belt.

Question:
If you have 26% haste in gear, how much of the final 1% do you actually get?
25% (256/1024), you're thinking about it the wrong way, the cap isn't higher than 25%, 1% from gear generally gives you slightly less than the written amount of 1% (10/1024 = 0.9766%, varies by gear) so you "need" 26% "written haste" to hit cap.

Edited, Dec 7th 2009 5:27pm by shintasama
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#21 Dec 07 2009 at 6:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Coyoteblackzero wrote:
milich wrote:
Coyoteblackzero wrote:
milich wrote:
well, at least you know it's a bad? idea. the things you're calling "fun" sound disingenuous to me (i think you're just trying to get a reaction from people you don't like?), but i suppose seeing the crit rate % number at 18%26% instead of 15%23% could be "fun" for someone. and doing less damage without any qualitative / playstyle difference could also be "fun".
Since when is fun bad in FFXI? OH, oh, yea, since I started getting sub defaulted for it, yea. mm, I don't really care what ppl I don't like think, I don't like them so why should I? xO ohhhhh maybe thats what fun is.... I need to take another gander.

Edited, Dec 7th 2009 6:25am by Coyoteblackzero


you have to try harder to troll me. go big or not at all, come on.
Ya know just to clear the air on things. I'm really lost on how I'm a troll,"which sounds like a dumbasses excuse for (NEEDING) to respond to some BS" when ppl respond to non-offensive, non-provocative post like this? Seriously? It sounds really hypocritical.
*Not "trolling" just passin some knowledge*
LOL don't ever say "Go Big or not at all" out in public. Its "Go Hard or go home." And no one really even says that anymore. LOL you sound like some teenagers dad trying to impress someone by using 2yo, yes I havent really heard that **** in 2 years outdated ebonics. Lol do you even know who started out saying that? Funkmaster flex, you know who thinks he's cool?........lol neither do I.


a lot of people like funkmaster flex.

anyway, the reason i think you're trolling is that what you said doesn't make sense. it's one thing to be like, "i like playing SAM/RNG even though it's not the most damage." it even almost makes sense to say, "i just like how domaruuuu looks compared to haubergeon." but "i like to raise my crit rate a couple % because it's FUN!" you know that doesn't make any sense.

also, i could have assumed that you're just too stupid to understand my points about fun / qualitative difference and therefore ignored them when you responded "no one remembers fun hurrrr". i chose to give you the benefit of the doubt and think you were expressing some emotional problems rather than raw lack of intelligence. that being the case, i urged you to troll harder, because that post really didn't get me to RAGE. you have to go big or not at all, you know?

edit: @deboro, actually i've forgotten what it takes to make me RAGE. hmm... maybe stuff about guard? i don't know. no one ever really gets me there. i think i'm untrollable actually. it's because i'm kind of a space cadet. i don't even care about important things, much less trifling things.

Edited, Dec 7th 2009 7:30pm by milich
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#22 Dec 07 2009 at 6:34 PM Rating: Decent
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That's a lie
#23 Dec 07 2009 at 7:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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sbrubles wrote:
That's a lie


no, you're lying.
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#24 Dec 08 2009 at 4:26 AM Rating: Good
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No you!!

k back to jogging ;p


Edit: heheh 1st time I rated someone up for a non topic related and non technical answer... I expected a totally different answer from Milich and that kinda made me made me laugh a bit XD

Edited, Dec 8th 2009 5:32am by sbrubles
#25Coyoteblackzero, Posted: Dec 08 2009 at 9:59 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Edited, Dec 8th 2009 11:21am by Coyoteblackzero
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