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#27 Dec 07 2009 at 5:17 PM Rating: Good
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I don't know if that was intentional or not, but you're awesome Sand! XD
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#28Azagarth, Posted: Dec 08 2009 at 2:57 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) ya just because you have a relic does not mean you know how to use it..... all this post seems to prove haha.
#29 Dec 08 2009 at 5:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Where did this list come from? Seems wrong to me, can you back it up with a link from the study that brought up that conclusion?

1st think that caught my attention was the K.Club RNG being comboed with Yoichi, instead of Annihilator. 2nd was it being under PLM SAM/WAR.

3rd was relic DRG. I've never seen a Gungnir, but seeing as Drakesbane has become a much more popular WS then Pentathrust, I very much doubt that a Gungnir DRG/SAM would be anyhow better then a Ryunohige DRG/SAM

Also the Apoc DRK/SAM kinda disturbed me. I don't know if that's true or not, but I had the pleasure of being in a match between myself (K.Club / Hellfire+1 RNG/NIN), PLM SAM/WAR (this fellah had the most amazing SAM gear I had ever seen, including Amano by the time I left the game) and an Apoc DRK/SAM.

Idk if they played it right, but according to them, the DDing order there was DRK > SAM > me, neither too far from the other. I know I had a really hard time to keep up XD

So without being able to judge the SAM's play style, I think the Apoc DRK/SAM deserves a better spot in that list.
#30 Dec 08 2009 at 8:49 AM Rating: Good
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Az wrote:
in terms of best jobs for meripo it simply goes this order; this is with DDx2 brd cor dnc rdm, assume their gear is all best of the best

1. soboro/yochi sam/drg
2. plm sam/war
3. kclub/yochi rng/(hear conflicting things on subs)
4. mnk/war with relic h2h
5. drg/sam with relic
6. war/sam with relic
7. regular pimped drg/sam
8. regular pimped war/sam
9. drk/sam with relic
10. mnk/war with shens

I'm assuming Birds only?, but even then I've got to say "no". DRG's should be at top in that case, yoichi's should be lower, SAMs lower, DRK should be higher (with 2(+?) healers and aftermath they can souleater w/e adding a ******* of dmg), WAR should be lower, MNK's I'm not sure (probably higher).

Edited, Dec 8th 2009 10:02am by shintasama
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#31 Dec 08 2009 at 1:14 PM Rating: Good
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in terms of best jobs for meripo it simply goes this order; this is with DDx2 brd cor dnc rdm, assume their gear is all best of the best
Quote:

1. soboro/yochi sam/drg
2. plm sam/war
3. kclub/yochi rng/(hear conflicting things on subs)
4. mnk/war with relic h2h
5. drg/sam with relic
6. war/sam with relic
7. regular pimped drg/sam
8. regular pimped war/sam
9. drk/sam with relic
10. mnk/war with shens


I'm assuming Birds only?, but even then I've got to say "no". DRG's should be at top in that case, yoichi's should be lower, SAMs lower, DRK should be higher (with 2(+?) healers and aftermath they can souleater w/e adding a @#%^ton of dmg), WAR should be lower, MNK's I'm not sure (probably higher).


I have parses beating well geared Apoc DRK on MNK/NIN, I have parses losing to an amazing Ridil WAR, I have parses beating Plm SAM's (on Hagun SAM) and the rest.

I could re-arange that list again, but i don't see anywhere 'Regular pimped Hagun or Soboro SAM/DRG'?

Just seems like an opinion imo.

Note: You also put BRD, COR, DNC as support, unfortunately, when a SAM/DRG is doinging his 6HIT **** @ 80% Haste, the Relic MNK/WAR is going to struggle to keep up @ 70% Haste, because going from 70% to 80% haste increases your overall DMG by 1.5x
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#32 Dec 08 2009 at 11:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Sandmasterr wrote:
I have parses beating well geared Apoc DRK on MNK/NIN, I have parses losing to an amazing Ridil WAR, I have parses beating Plm SAM's (on Hagun SAM) and the rest.
Really? Because I've parsed with probably a dozen ridill WARs and have yet to see one that's even competitive as a DD, much less "amazing".
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#33 Dec 09 2009 at 2:44 AM Rating: Good
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Really? Because I've parsed with probably a dozen ridill WARs and have yet to see one that's even competitive as a DD, much less "amazing".


He's a Ridilberk WAR with Speed belt, Dusk+1 etc, In a BRD + COR pty with Chaos and Fighter's roll (sylph's COR's don't seem to like Cor's roll). I lost 2 parses to him by 3-4%

It would have been different if I was /WAR or on SAM/DRG, but still. His ACC was also @95%
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#34 Dec 09 2009 at 3:18 AM Rating: Good
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Azagarth wrote:
1. soboro/yochi sam/drg
2. plm sam/war
3. kclub/yochi rng/(hear conflicting things on subs)
4. mnk/war with relic h2h
5. drg/sam with relic
6. war/sam with relic
7. regular pimped drg/sam
8. regular pimped war/sam
9. drk/sam with relic
10. mnk/war with shens


those are top 10 jobs def for meripo, as you can see plm sam is at top with a yochi. The only real deciding fact is that a yochi will be able to put out so many more ws its not funny, literally with avg of 2 swings on soboro you are looking at a ws off every 6-7~ sec, while the plm will need around 9~. Also the reason mnk so high before you start is they will have hate from time of engaging and counters add to the dmg... really skews it but it doesnt show in parse, got to manually add it in, but you can figure a 70% counter rate, and a bird attacking the mnk probably 3 times before its dead can easily give 250~ dmg per mob. Thats a significant amount (about 4%). Also some might have issues with a kclub rng but they are drool worthy if you have never tried one. Its just you have the have a suicidal one with capped melee acc.. most run like 70%~ with club which kills me... might as well 5 hit it up and stand back like that. Also to all those egotistical drks..... i think #10 might actually be generous, cata just doesnt put out the #s needed.


That list isnt even remotely correct. You can tell your opinion is biased toward drk, and most of this is off bandwagon/favortism/lack of experience vs actual job mechanics.

Apoc drk is going to be top 3 regardless of camp. With that setup, you putting the drk at perma 80% haste, and depending on gear probably 4-5 hit build. Which means its ws every 5-7 seconds if not less.

Monk relic wont beat out drg at bird camp. And definately not a relic drg. Outside of bird camp is another story.

Sam polearm is awesome at bird camp, but outside that, its performance drops to just great and nothing more.


And dont even bring up, "I beat this job before, I saw this job beat this job before, I got beat by this job, I saw this, and that" etc etc etc, it all means diddlysquat. What you saw was the player beating another player. Nothing more nothing less. When all things are equal, player aggressiveness will bring out the better of a job, but even then, no 2 players engage at the same time, react to whats going on as fast as each etc etc.

The math is as close to the ideal potential a job can achieve, the rest is up to the player inregards to how much of that potential he can bring out.


There are some jobs that you can really f-up and others that you dont have to try so hard and can out perform a lot of other jobs very easily.

Sam and war are very easy jobs to get good performance vs player. Example, I could gear my sam in AH gear and perform better than another job thats geared great but the player sucks.

Drgs, monk and drks require more player aggression to bring out its full potential(for drgs , outside bird camp, probably inside too for some~)its why you get a lot of ignorant ppl putting drk lower on the list of things, b/c we've all had our handful of loldrks that just plain out fail. Monk use to be like sam, very easy to beat out a lot of jobs, after the update, now you need to be on your game and aggressive to perform as good or just slightly on the top DDs *** in performance.


@Sandmaster, and just imagine, going by your gear now(not sure if its updated) you werent at optimal gear(full usu/ftorque etc) vs his gear which was.

Edited, Dec 9th 2009 9:24am by hitoseijuro
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#35 Dec 09 2009 at 8:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Most of this stuff depends on buffs, you can play to the advantage of one or the other to suit your needs. For example, you can give a WAR(zerk) or DRK, chaos roll and minuet vs a DRG. Guess what, the minuet doesn't help the WAR or DRK because they are already past the cap (vs birds). Where as the DRG gets the benefit of both. Any SAM or /SAM should beat out MNK (relic or not) under high haste (near 80%) situations simple because monk doesnt get hasso (huge difference btw 70% and 80% haste). You can even push a Ridill WAR up there if you give him hunter's roll and let him eq more offense gear, esp in lower/medium haste situations. To get an accurate ordered list you would have to include each buff the player gets and debuffs on mob (dia2-3) and which mobs they are.

Edited, Dec 9th 2009 8:10am by doctorugh
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#36 Dec 09 2009 at 11:06 AM Rating: Good
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in defense of MNK- they may not be able to get to 80% haste, but like soboro their adjusted dps is crazy. w/ sparai it's ~2x60*(36+23+2)/(386)= 19.0 vs 60*(99+10)/(488)= 14.6 for Bravura, and asuran base is ~8x(36+23+2+16)=616 while king's is 3*(99+10+41)=450. W/O the DNC and piercing weakness they would be up there.
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#37 Dec 09 2009 at 11:15 AM Rating: Default
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For example, you can give a WAR(zerk) or DRK, chaos roll and minuet vs a DRG. Guess what, the minuet doesn't help the WAR or DRK because they are already past the cap (vs birds). Where as the DRG gets the benefit of both.

Why would you give them minuet? The support in that scenerio was brd cor dnc rdm. Therefore you give them march/march chaos+cor rolls. If for some reason you dont want exp and just going for a epeen contest, you give them chaos+sam or chaos+war.

9% Haste is going to do a lot more than 66att is esp if that 9% is going to push you from 71% to 80%.
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#38 Dec 09 2009 at 12:18 PM Rating: Decent
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shintasama wrote:
in defense of MNK- they may not be able to get to 80% haste, but like soboro their adjusted dps is crazy. w/ sparai it's ~2x60*(36+23+2)/(386)= 19.0 vs 60*(99+10)/(488)= 14.6 for Bravura, and asuran base is ~8x(36+23+2+16)=616 while king's is 3*(99+10+41)=450. W/O the DNC and piercing weakness they would be up there.


Right, but thier cRatio isnt anywhere close. It's why you dont see any WAR KJ anywhere close to 450.

Quote:
Quote:
For example, you can give a WAR(zerk) or DRK, chaos roll and minuet vs a DRG. Guess what, the minuet doesn't help the WAR or DRK because they are already past the cap (vs birds). Where as the DRG gets the benefit of both.

Why would you give them minuet? The support in that scenerio was brd cor dnc rdm. Therefore you give them march/march chaos+cor rolls. If for some reason you dont want exp and just going for a epeen contest, you give them chaos+sam or chaos+war.

9% Haste is going to do a lot more than 66att is esp if that 9% is going to push you from 71% to 80%.


If you have 2 RNG and a WAR as your DD, i'll bet they wouldnt mind minuet over haste, but thats not the purpose of what I'm saying. What I'm saying is you can manipulate the buffs to give advantage. To be fair you'd have to strip all buffs away and compare apples to apples. I doubt anyone is waiting to join that fun 5DD merit party.



]

Edited, Dec 9th 2009 12:27pm by doctorugh
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#39 Dec 09 2009 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
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doctorugh wrote:
shintasama wrote:
in defense of MNK- they may not be able to get to 80% haste, but like soboro their adjusted dps is crazy. w/ sparai it's ~2x60*(36+23+2)/(386)= 19.0 vs 60*(99+10)/(488)= 14.6 for Bravura, and asuran base is ~8x(36+23+2+16)=616 while king's is 3*(99+10+41)=450. W/O the DNC and piercing weakness they would be up there.
Right, but thier cRatio isnt anywhere close. It's why you dont see any WAR KJ anywhere close to 450.
No ****? We're assuming best players and high buffs vs weak *** mobs, ratio should be capped or pretty close to each other so I canceled them out. It's napkin math for christ's sake, you'll notice I didn't take into account acc/DA/KA/chi blast/footwork/counters/2hrs/etcetc either ~_~;
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#40 Dec 09 2009 at 3:15 PM Rating: Good
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shintasama wrote:
doctorugh wrote:
shintasama wrote:
in defense of MNK- they may not be able to get to 80% haste, but like soboro their adjusted dps is crazy. w/ sparai it's ~2x60*(36+23+2)/(386)= 19.0 vs 60*(99+10)/(488)= 14.6 for Bravura, and asuran base is ~8x(36+23+2+16)=616 while king's is 3*(99+10+41)=450. W/O the DNC and piercing weakness they would be up there.
Right, but thier cRatio isnt anywhere close. It's why you dont see any WAR KJ anywhere close to 450.
No sh*t? We're assuming best players and high buffs vs weak *** mobs, ratio should be capped or pretty close to each other so I canceled them out. It's napkin math for christ's sake, you'll notice I didn't take into account acc/DA/KA/chi blast/footwork/counters/2hrs/etcetc either ~_~;


A warrior can cap cRatio with dia3 on birds with zerk up and no other buff, where as mnk wont. It's not really fair to start everyone on capped cRatio and then make the comparison. It you cap acc and cRatio, all the one handed jobs (and monk) start to surge way ahead. If I was a war against birds and I knew every bird got dia3, fighter's roll would help me alot more than chaos. I'll reiterate that any comparisons are completely subjective and arbitrary without listing off what buffs/debuffs and mob type.

As far as MNK vs WAR, WAR has a significant att,acc, and haste bonus; whereas MNK has a nice base damage per sec.
DRG is going to have a piercing bonus on birds, but move over to mamools and my money goes on a WAR beating them.
If you take away the bonuses of one job, the other starts to pull ahead.

Edited, Dec 9th 2009 3:27pm by doctorugh
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#41 Dec 09 2009 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
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doctorugh wrote:
shintasama wrote:
doctorugh wrote:
shintasama wrote:
in defense of MNK- they may not be able to get to 80% haste, but like soboro their adjusted dps is crazy. w/ sparai it's ~2x60*(36+23+2)/(386)= 19.0 vs 60*(99+10)/(488)= 14.6 for Bravura, and asuran base is ~8x(36+23+2+16)=616 while king's is 3*(99+10+41)=450. W/O the DNC and piercing weakness they would be up there.
Right, but thier cRatio isnt anywhere close. It's why you dont see any WAR KJ anywhere close to 450.
No sh*t? We're assuming best players and high buffs vs weak *** mobs, ratio should be capped or pretty close to each other so I canceled them out. It's napkin math for christ's sake, you'll notice I didn't take into account acc/DA/KA/chi blast/footwork/counters/2hrs/etcetc either ~_~;
A warrior can cap cRatio with dia3 on birds with zerk up and no other buff, where as mnk wont. It's not really fair to start everyone on capped cRatio and then make the comparison. It you cap acc and cRatio, all the one handed jobs (and monk) start to surge way ahead. If I was a war against birds and I knew every bird got dia3, fighter's roll would help me alot more than chaos. I'll reiterate that any comparisons are completely subjective and arbitrary without listing off what buffs/debuffs and mob type.
I completely agree with the last point, this is all pretty theoretical and arbitrary based on camp/buffs/etc. I want to point out MNK/WAR has access to berserk and potentially full fighters roll too, and birds aren't particularly hard to cap acc on. The whole purpose of my post was just to illustrate how well MNK can do in extreme buff situations, not definitively say X>Y.
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#42 Dec 10 2009 at 3:12 AM Rating: Good
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A Full Usu Black belt MNK/WAR + Faith's would be pretty **** unbeatable.

My MNK ACC range's from 85-86% @ bird's, and I can produce very competitive DMG VS pimp DD's. If someone was to give me a full set of usukane (or just the feet....) and a pair of Faith's, I could do some amazing stuff /WAR.

Actually, maybe Vegetto or alma, or some other 24-25% Haste Usu MNK's could post some parse's of themselves meriting with Faith's /WAR against pimp WAR's, SAM's, DRK's or DRG's?

Just to add a thought with no real effort...

Taking my 86% ACC (that includes Focus up/down macro's) to 95% which full Usu would provide would be a 10.5% DoT Boost.

from Kinematic's legendary thread on the MNK forum on weapon comparisons, and various comparisons of Faith's, but i'll take 5% as the number for increase over Destroyer's.]

/WAR sub job add's 10% DA (~7% increase as it doesn't affect Asuran), Zerk's additional att 3/5's of the time on top of Dia3 bird + chaos roll + mithkabob is around a 17% increase.

So 10.5 + 5 + 7 + 17 = 39.5% increase in my MNK's DMG from wearing Usu + Faiths + /war @ bird camp. That was really badly put, but even if the bonus from all that was just 20%, it'd mean my MNK would top every parse it has ever been in.

Problem is, MNK's generally don't sub WAR (which is where the biggest boost comes from), and even fewer are full Usu BB mnk's. Take all that away, and equip like Byakko's, BB, Faith, etc, then MNK just won't compete with SAM's or WAR's. If you then takes away CoP rewards, PCC, Togi, Sura Haidate etc, then the MNK is a pile of ****.
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#43 Dec 10 2009 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Taking my 86% ACC (that includes Focus up/down macro's) to 95% which full Usu would provide would be a 10.5% DoT Boost.


I'm pretty sure MNK can't hit acc cap without focus, reguardless of eq (assuming you arent doing something silly like dropping all your haste for acc)

EQ-Faith bags
Ammo-Virute Stone
Head - Usu
Neck - Torque
ear - brutal
ear2 - Hollow
body - Usu
Hands - Usu
Ring1 - Toreador
Ring2 - Toreador
Back- Cuch
Belt - black
Legs - Usu
Feet - Usu

Acc 289 + 44 (dex) + 58 = 391
Not sure if rajas or foragers would be more advantagous anways

Your total acc with focus 40% of the time would be 91.55%

***edit*** had acc from torque built in and added peacock


Edited, Dec 10th 2009 12:25pm by doctorugh
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#44 Dec 10 2009 at 12:09 PM Rating: Good
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Faith Torque would probably be better than PCC overall, competitive parses don't mean jack, with theoretically infinite resources player could spam pizza, getting specific in this argument is pretty silly, etcetc.
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#45 Dec 10 2009 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
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shintasama wrote:
Faith Torque would probably be better than PCC overall, competitive parses don't mean jack, with theoretically infinite resources player could spam pizza, getting specific in this argument is pretty silly, etcetc.


When I make comparisons on birds, I assume either spamming crab or meat mith; whichever is more advantageous (usually meat for better geared players). If someone started to spam pizza, I'd send them a tell saying I'd throw the "competetive parse" if he wants to just trade me 4k(price of pizza) everytime he would get food taken.
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#46 Dec 10 2009 at 1:40 PM Rating: Good
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doctorugh wrote:
shintasama wrote:
Faith Torque would probably be better than PCC overall, competitive parses don't mean jack, with theoretically infinite resources player could spam pizza, getting specific in this argument is pretty silly, etcetc.


When I make comparisons on birds, I assume either spamming crab or meat mith; whichever is more advantageous (usually meat for better geared players). If someone started to spam pizza, I'd send them a tell saying I'd throw the "competetive parse" if he wants to just trade me 4k(price of pizza) everytime he would get food taken.
XD
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#47 Dec 11 2009 at 12:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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shintasama wrote:
doctorugh wrote:
shintasama wrote:
Faith Torque would probably be better than PCC overall, competitive parses don't mean jack, with theoretically infinite resources player could spam pizza, getting specific in this argument is pretty silly, etcetc.


When I make comparisons on birds, I assume either spamming crab or meat mith; whichever is more advantageous (usually meat for better geared players). If someone started to spam pizza, I'd send them a tell saying I'd throw the "competetive parse" if he wants to just trade me 4k(price of pizza) everytime he would get food taken.
XD


yeah, if someone were spamming pizza for a "competitive parse" on birds, i'd have the person hold on 15 min while i change to MNK/WAR, make sure not to forget the hermes sandals, and have a mage friend of mine outside heal while i voke birds and run backwards for the rest of the night.
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#48 Dec 11 2009 at 5:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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doctorugh wrote:
A warrior can cap cRatio with dia3 on birds with zerk up and no other buff, where as mnk wont.


False and true.

Attack needed to cap cRatio for 1-handers || 2-handers vs Greater Colibri and a given amount of def down:

Greater Colibri, levels 81-82 [def: 322/327]

0% : 741/769 || 822/851
5% : 704/731 || 781/809
10%: 667/694 || 740/767
15%: 631/654 || 699/723
20%: 594/616 || 658/682
25%: 557/579 || 618/640
32%: N/A (resistant)


With Dia III, mnk needs ~650 to cap, which no, they aren't going to get. War needs ~720 to cap, and they aren't getting that either with nothing but Berserk.


I need to make a thread somewhere for these attack caps, since they're getting more relevant to gear comparisons.
#49 Dec 15 2009 at 1:28 AM Rating: Default
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I hadnt checked back to this thread in some time. I was laughing at the comment about my Cor being a shame to other Cors. I had other parses in Normal PT setups where I DD just fine and do better then other melee's in the pt pn my cor while full buffing and pulling with the Brd. In the pt I posted the parse of even you and your "im so cool" Cor parses would suck, The birds would die before I coudl get 3-4 swings off with my Joy-toy Penta + Namas = Dead bird and they happened upon engaging almost every bird Yochi sam was on a 5-hit Tomoe Sam on a 4. It was amazing pt to be in and I wasnt about to try to slack off on pulling every mob in the zone along with the brd just so I could get my own epeen on the parse.


Milich, you should get into one of these pt's we can build it however you like so you can see the sheer awesomeness of Cyth's build just looking at 2 parses doesnt do much I think you should pt with us. Next time he does a pt I will msg you if you are online.
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#50 Dec 15 2009 at 1:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Deboro wrote:
I hadnt checked back to this thread in some time. I was laughing at the comment about my Cor being a shame to other Cors. I had other parses in Normal PT setups where I DD just fine and do better then other melee's in the pt pn my cor while full buffing and pulling with the Brd. In the pt I posted the parse of even you and your "im so cool" Cor parses would suck, The birds would die before I coudl get 3-4 swings off with my Joy-toy Penta + Namas = Dead bird and they happened upon engaging almost every bird Yochi sam was on a 5-hit Tomoe Sam on a 4. It was amazing pt to be in and I wasnt about to try to slack off on pulling every mob in the zone along with the brd just so I could get my own epeen on the parse.


Milich, you should get into one of these pt's we can build it however you like so you can see the sheer awesomeness of Cyth's build just looking at 2 parses doesnt do much I think you should pt with us. Next time he does a pt I will msg you if you are online.


if such a thing happens, i'll try it with love halberd. virtue weapons are always a nice ace in the hole when grasping for epeen.

(i almost never log on though... the spirit is leaving me, i'm afraid)
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pahn
retired monk

i wish to be the red comet.
#51 Dec 16 2009 at 12:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I'll give my polearm build on Bird merits a try:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?148447

Since the new items aren't fully updated, here are the changes that aren't listed:

AMKD helm is WS ACC+15 ACC+10
Accura cape +1
Virtuoso belt

How does it look on merits? Working my funds toward a Cuchuclain mantle and only missing usukane feet 35 to complete them and no polearm merits btw.
Should I use Crab sushi or meat while meriting on pinkys?
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Drk, Pup, Bst, Nin, War, Drg, Sam, Mnk, Dnc, Smn, Rng, Thf, Blu, Cor, Run 99

Annihilator 119! 1st April 2015

Tizona(Blue Mage Mythic) 40/50 Assaults re-clear! And 28k alex to go! Started 24th 2014

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