Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Sub job COR?Follow

#52 Nov 15 2009 at 5:01 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
6,481 posts
CB0 first b/c he'll get upset if I don't (I leave town to go party for a weekend and he's still pretending I'm here reading/rating his drivel? creeeeepy)
CB0 wrote:
Edited cause I had to add more color cause [...] it proves even more of my point.
that you "ride the rainbow"?


meh, kinda of a obvious retort, but w/e, onwards!
SB wrote:
Something I found weird about this thread: pretty much everyone saying /COR is bad is comparing its DPS with /DRG or /WAR. If I hadn't read some of the assumptions over /COR's gimped buff I'd just stop here calling you guys retarded. It's pretty **** obvious that /DRG and /WAR will beat /COR's DPS, but that's not what was being discussed.

The idea behind any non DD SJ (cept /NIN) is obviously not to increase your own DPS, you'd be increasing the DPS from the other 3 DDs in you merit party in detriment of your own. Being able to drop your TP rate to a 5-hit would soften the decrease of the SAM DPS (a good factor when compared to other non-DD SJs). For the other DDs, however, increasing their TP rate to shave a hit on that TP build (read: 4 DDs shaving one hit each on their TP build rate while only one of them would be gimping his total DMG output) does seem like a decent idea.

I don't have the slightest clue if /COR is good or not, but affirming it isn't taking in account only your own DPS decrease is kinda dumb.

OBS: I'm not taking in account what rolls you'd need and how rare they are

Hurting your epeen must seem intolerable for some here, eh?
Reading issues?:1, 2, 3


It's a dead horse argument, it's not even close to being "good" or "situational", it didn't need in-depth analysis, it didn't need anything more than "it doesn't work worth a ****", it certainly didn't need 50+ replies (particularly the last 40 or so), so knock off your self-righteous, white knight ********
SB wrote:
Now read the thread again and see how long it took you to say it and you may figure it wasn't all that obvious.
The first ~10 posts hit the nail on the head, you just have to actaully read them instead of whining that we didn't provide numbers and we weren't nice enough about it.
SB wrote:
/COR may or may not offer a considerable boost to the other classes, a boost that may surpass the loss of the SAM's DMG.
It doesn't, we already stated why, actaully go read it and get over yourself.
Ugh, M.D. wrote:
I got plenty of "blue mage cant DD that well"
one of the best non-relic melee I know is a BLU, BLU just takes a lot more work/gear than 2hrs so the avg quality is lower.
Milich wrote:
alla SAM forums: 90% weird *** people railing against "the regulars" and "the mainstream", 9% "the regulars" expressing confusion or disgust with the 90%, 1% "the regulars" posting links to posts they wrote over a year ago to answer game questions.
pretty much, mmm dead horse nomnomnom
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#53 Nov 15 2009 at 5:10 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,054 posts
TarowynXI wrote:
One thing that hasn't been brought up, since you only get one roll as a /cor, busting becomes very dangerous as you actually get jacked down to a 7 hit for the full duration of the bust. This makes rolling on an unlucky (6) a kind of risky proposition. It's probably better to just suck the bad roll and temp switch rolls to reroll and that lowers the overall effectiveness of the buff.


Statistical if it indeed lowered everyone's hit/WS ratio by rolling a 2,7,8,9,10,11, then you would double up on a 6(unlucky). You would not reroll on any of the others. It is a good point however, that some % of the time (albiet small); the roll would be detrimental.

I think the effectiveness of this roll is probably pretty small due to the unlikeliness of everyone being +13 STP (or less) from lose a hit to WS. On a seperate note: On merit parties that consist of 1 BRD, 1 healer, and 4 DD; if one of the DD is a DRK; the weakest DD (or DD whos sub noramlly gives the least) should definately /COR for chaos roll. It will give 13.7% att on avg to 4 players. I doubt that a person who is doing 20% of the parse will make that up with a DD sub.

Quote:
It's a dead horse argument, it's not even close to being "good" or "situational",

So as far as /COR never being situational, in this situation, someone should take a small hit to thier epeen to add this kind of damage to a group. Even the greatest defenders of DD sub DD only should be able to see this.



Edited, Nov 15th 2009 5:20pm by doctorugh
____________________________
Quote:
You can't transform numbers into other numbers like that. It'd just go on forever. That's like witchcraft.


There's one guy I know who
Quote:
is a big deal now.
#54 Nov 15 2009 at 5:34 PM Rating: Decent
*
60 posts
doctorugh wrote:
TarowynXI wrote:
One thing that hasn't been brought up, since you only get one roll as a /cor, busting becomes very dangerous as you actually get jacked down to a 7 hit for the full duration of the bust. This makes rolling on an unlucky (6) a kind of risky proposition. It's probably better to just suck the bad roll and temp switch rolls to reroll and that lowers the overall effectiveness of the buff.


Statistical if it indeed lowered everyone's hit/WS ratio by rolling a 2,7,8,9,10,11, then you would double up on a 6(unlucky). You would not reroll on any of the others. It is a good point however, that some % of the time (albiet small); the roll would be detrimental.

I think the effectiveness of this roll is probably pretty small due to the unlikeliness of everyone being +13 STP (or less) from lose a hit to WS. On a seperate note: On merit parties that consist of 1 BRD, 1 healer, and 4 DD; if one of the DD is a DRK; the weakest DD (or DD whos sub noramlly gives the least) should definately /COR for chaos roll. It will give 13.7% att on avg to 4 players. I doubt that a person who is doing 20% of the parse will make that up with a DD sub.

The thing is it's not that small of the time, it's not like cor main where you have a 2nd roll to fall back on if you bust, not to mention fold if it's merited. If you bust it means you're really screwed for the next 5 minutes and the rest of the party also gets nothing for that duration.
#55 Nov 15 2009 at 6:06 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
599 posts
Quote:
Reading issues?

You know, I throw the question back at you. Surely, you did show that a GKT wielding SAM would not be able to easily drop to 5-hit, meaning /COR didn't distinguish itself from non-DD subs regarding the SAM himself (as I affirmed that if it could drop the SAM a hit, it'd soften the DPS loss from other non-DD subs).

But your argument regarding other jobs is pretty insufficient to justify your arrogance and lack of respect.

Not only that, you seem to fail to comprehend that at not even one single point of this thread I advocated that /COR was good (which points back to your own question). I did, however, affirmed that most here, specially yourself, were taking in account only the /COR's DMG, and not the others in the group. Having to sacrifice 1-2 slots to top that TP boost to shave a hit is more the acceptable, in fact it's what every single SAM does prior to Usukane boots.

To a more serious note, and getting back to Milich:
About that point we both spoke of (that a less SJ dependent person should be the one to attempt this, if at all useful). Isn't however SAM the less SJ dependent among the 2h weapon wielder jobs? This isn't meant as a rhetorical question, I in fact do not know some of the other 2h weapon wielder jobs, but it seems that every single one of them would get a higher boost from subbing SAM then SAM would from subbing DRG.

And to you both:
For the love of God, stop with this "self-righteousness" crap just because I don't swallow what you both toss in these forums IF failing in argument. If my self-righteousness bothers you so much, you could think twice before writing a post such as you last (for Shinta).

Good lord, you're 2 of the biggest help many of the SAMs here will ever see, but it seems you both let that go over your head way too much... Or maybe you think I keep coming here (even tho I don't play anymore) with the single intention of discussing with you). Preposterous......

Edited, Nov 15th 2009 7:14pm by sbrubles


Late edit: out of curiosity I read the thread again, cept for the sub-default posts (so if it's in one of them you probably have part in the guilt for me not seeing it), and still all I see was stuff from the line:
"/DRG and /WAR are better then /COR because they do more DMG", or "SAM is a DD job, so it has to sub a real DD SJ". Honestly, I sympathize with both arguments, but different situations must be considered sometimes.

So I think I'll have to agree with you, I must have some reading issues. I really didn't see any post that could possibly answer to mine.


Edited, Nov 15th 2009 7:48pm by sbrubles
#56 Nov 15 2009 at 6:06 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
1,054 posts
TarowynXI wrote:
doctorugh wrote:
TarowynXI wrote:
One thing that hasn't been brought up, since you only get one roll as a /cor, busting becomes very dangerous as you actually get jacked down to a 7 hit for the full duration of the bust. This makes rolling on an unlucky (6) a kind of risky proposition. It's probably better to just suck the bad roll and temp switch rolls to reroll and that lowers the overall effectiveness of the buff.


Statistical if it indeed lowered everyone's hit/WS ratio by rolling a 2,7,8,9,10,11, then you would double up on a 6(unlucky). You would not reroll on any of the others. It is a good point however, that some % of the time (albiet small); the roll would be detrimental.

I think the effectiveness of this roll is probably pretty small due to the unlikeliness of everyone being +13 STP (or less) from lose a hit to WS. On a seperate note: On merit parties that consist of 1 BRD, 1 healer, and 4 DD; if one of the DD is a DRK; the weakest DD (or DD whos sub noramlly gives the least) should definately /COR for chaos roll. It will give 13.7% att on avg to 4 players. I doubt that a person who is doing 20% of the parse will make that up with a DD sub.

The thing is it's not that small of the time, it's not like cor main where you have a 2nd roll to fall back on if you bust, not to mention fold if it's merited. If you bust it means you're really screwed for the next 5 minutes and the rest of the party also gets nothing for that duration.


5/6 chance of getting what you want vs 1/6 of losing; vs getting nothing by doing nothing; you should make the roll. But thats only for samurai roll.
You wouldn't roll on 6 or chaos roll for instance because its not an unlucky number. Also chaos roll would work differently in this senario as unlucky would still net you 6% damage on chaos roll where as unluck on samurai roll would do nothing.

Quote:
To a more serious note, and getting back to Milich:
About that point we both spoke of (that a less SJ dependent person should be the one to attempt this, if at all useful). Isn't however SAM the less SJ dependent among the 2h weapon wielder jobs? This isn't meant as a rhetorical question, I in fact do not know some of the other 2h weapon wielder jobs, but it seems that every single one of them would get a higher boost from subbing SAM then SAM would from subbing DRG.


This is actually why I brought this to the sam forum (and rng forum - and no they hate the idea of giving up /nin or /war to give +22 acc on avg. to everyone.) DRK, WAR, and DRG dont have any defensive abilities on thier own, where as SAM does. Also I was mostly think of GKT SAM where the berserk from /WAR doesn't add as much to the big 3 WS as it would to other subs.



Edited, Nov 15th 2009 6:34pm by doctorugh
____________________________
Quote:
You can't transform numbers into other numbers like that. It'd just go on forever. That's like witchcraft.


There's one guy I know who
Quote:
is a big deal now.
#57 Nov 15 2009 at 6:17 PM Rating: Decent
*
60 posts
doctorugh wrote:
5/6 chance of getting what you want vs 1/6 of losing; vs getting nothing by doing nothing; you should make the roll. But thats only for samurai roll.
You wouldn't roll on 6 or chaos roll for instance because its not an unlucky number. Also chaos roll would work differently in this senario as unlucky would still net you 6% damage on chaos roll where as unluck on samurai roll would do nothing.

Edited, Nov 15th 2009 6:12pm by doctorugh


Yeah, but we were mainly talking about sam since that's the only job we're guaranteed to have. At least if you roll a 6, you can temp roll something else and then be back on sam in 2 minutes, if you actually bust you're out for 5.

Let me look at the math for STP on other jobs, don't have it offhand like I do for sam.
#58 Nov 15 2009 at 8:15 PM Rating: Good
Sage
Avatar
*****
10,813 posts
sbrubles, why do you only show up in flame wars, and why do you consistently write stupid things and then apologize for them? you should try jogging or ironing to take that stress out.

this thread is terrible. it's a simple question that got a simple answer, but suddenly people have to argue about nothing. grow up, idiots.
____________________________
pahn
retired monk

i wish to be the red comet.
#59 Nov 15 2009 at 8:49 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
6,481 posts
Ugh, M.D. wrote:
So as far as /COR never being situational, in this situation, someone should take a small hit to thier epeen to add this kind of damage to a group. Even the greatest defenders of DD sub DD only should be able to see this.
For the third+ time, everyone needs to already be taking a large hit to their DD from wasted slots to get any bonus, on top of the /COR taking a huge hit.
Ugh, M.D. wrote:
if one of the DD is a DRK; the weakest DD (or DD whos sub noramlly gives the least)
As a DRK as well, I'd -love- to see you try to qualify that.
SB wrote:
Surely, you did show that a GKT wielding SAM would not be able to easily drop to 5-hit, meaning /COR didn't distinguish itself from non-DD subs regarding the SAM himself (as I affirmed that if it could drop the SAM a hit, it'd soften the DPS loss from other non-DD subs).

But your argument regarding other jobs is pretty insufficient to justify your arrogance and lack of respect.
No job out of the ones he listed would be able to easily drop to 5-hit 1)because people don't wear +STP over the minimum they need and 2)because those jobs have much less +sTP gear to choose from (hi2uhachi/usu sets) I'm not even sure it's possible to get enough for DRK and DRG (it would take a bunch of slots, WAR would probably need hachiryu). It's ridiculous to think that the SAM/COR is the only one "sacrificing his epeen" to help the party. The overall gain compared to the loss is absolute crap to the point where there is no reason this conversation should have made two pages other than people having their heads stuck up their asses.
SB wrote:
I did, however, affirmed that most here, specially yourself, were taking in account only the /COR's DMG, and not the others in the group.
I was not, which should have been obvious from my posts that I linked (which is why I linked them) had you actually read them.
SB wrote:
Having to sacrifice 1-2 slots to top that TP boost to shave a hit is more the acceptable, in fact it's what every single SAM does prior to Usukane boots.
74-35-5(rajas)-8(hachiman)-13(roll)= 13 sTP
What are you sacrificing that lets you do that in "1 slot"? If you recall, if you're sacrificing slots pre-merits (only 10sTP) it's ~50:50 vs just using "good" gear, and we have access to better DD options and more haste later which means you're sacrificing that much more. (note that this is for the non-COR SAMs as well, and keep that in mind when you're trying to decide how much that roll actaully "helps" the PT)
SB wrote:
with the single intention of discussing with you).
From the tone of your post you came in here with the sole intention of being an self-righteous *** and insulting people who replied honestly to the OP's dead horse thread just because it wasn't instantly obvious to you what the clear answer was like it was to the rest of us.

Fuck Off,

~The Management







CB0, if you ever want to grow up to be a big strong troll that people take seriously at all, you should pay attention to SB here, he's the real deal.

Edited, Nov 15th 2009 10:15pm by shintasama
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#60 Nov 15 2009 at 11:17 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
1,054 posts
milich wrote:
sbrubles, why do you only show up in flame wars, and why do you consistently write stupid things and then apologize for them? you should try jogging or ironing to take that stress out.

this thread is terrible. it's a simple question that got a simple answer, but suddenly people have to argue about nothing. grow up, idiots.


Well, well, well the pot is calling the kettle black.

Also the "hey, grow up" right next to "idiots" was a nice touch.

Quote:
Ugh, M.D. wrote:
So as far as /COR never being situational, in this situation, someone should take a small hit to thier epeen to add this kind of damage to a group. Even the greatest defenders of DD sub DD only should be able to see this.
For the third+ time, everyone needs to already be taking a large hit to their DD from wasted slots to get any bonus, on top of the /COR taking a huge hit.

Ugh, M.D. wrote:
if one of the DD is a DRK; the weakest DD (or DD whos sub noramlly gives the least)
As a DRK as well, I'd -love- to see you try to qualify that.



Dont get so touche about your precious DRK emo damage. I'll restate so you can understand better. If there is 4 DD and one is DRK, someone (not neccessarily your uber special DRK) in the party should sub COR for chaos roll giving an avg of 13.7% damage to everyone.
I'll clairify further:
DRK/SAM parses 30%
SAM/WAR1 parses 25%
WAR/SAM parses 25%
SAM/WAR2 parses 20%

Let's go wild and say the /WAR from SAM2 nets him 50% (33% of his total or 6.7% of the total parse) more damage than he would do as SAM/NIN. Instead he subs COR giving 13.7% to all 4 (13.7% of the total damage more). He now has helped his party more than /WAR.

Stamp that one qualified.


Quote:
From the tone of your post you came in here with the sole intention of being an self-righteous *** and insulting people who replied honestly to the OP's dead horse thread just because it wasn't instantly obvious to you what the clear answer was like it was to the rest of us.

@#%^ Off,

~The Management


Who are you to call anyone "self-righteous ***" and denegrating someone's "tone". Do you own a mirror?

Edited, Nov 15th 2009 11:39pm by doctorugh

Edited, Nov 15th 2009 11:41pm by doctorugh
____________________________
Quote:
You can't transform numbers into other numbers like that. It'd just go on forever. That's like witchcraft.


There's one guy I know who
Quote:
is a big deal now.
#61 Nov 16 2009 at 1:12 AM Rating: Good
Sage
Avatar
*****
10,813 posts
doctorugh wrote:
milich wrote:
sbrubles, why do you only show up in flame wars, and why do you consistently write stupid things and then apologize for them? you should try jogging or ironing to take that stress out.

this thread is terrible. it's a simple question that got a simple answer, but suddenly people have to argue about nothing. grow up, idiots.


Well, well, well the pot is calling the kettle black.

Also the "hey, grow up" right next to "idiots" was a nice touch.


if you want to troll with me, you're at least a year late. i don't give a sh*t about any of this, and i certainly don't give a sh*t about you (or the bumbling sbrubles). i think your SAM/COR question was perfectly valid, the responses were valid, and gauging your damage loss or other possibilities to get rolls or whatever is also valid. the crybaby nonsense about group think is not valid. it's horribly boring and misguided. no one's railing against you in this thread, they're just stating their opinions and reacting to trolls. if you yourself are trolling, congratulations, you elicited moderately annoyed responses from 2 people on a board that no one seems to read or post on anymore.

edit: and the "no u" nonsense is really moronic if you're *not* trolling. you're arguing about tone and your feelings, ie nothing. shut up.

Edited, Nov 16th 2009 2:23am by milich
____________________________
pahn
retired monk

i wish to be the red comet.
#62sbrubles, Posted: Nov 16 2009 at 6:45 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I found this last post from Shintasama satisfactory to the purpose of my questioning, and while reading it and comparing some other jobs gears I'm happy to say I agree with him and that I can finally leave this discussion.
#63 Nov 16 2009 at 7:08 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,054 posts
milich wrote:
doctorugh wrote:
milich wrote:
sbrubles, why do you only show up in flame wars, and why do you consistently write stupid things and then apologize for them? you should try jogging or ironing to take that stress out.

this thread is terrible. it's a simple question that got a simple answer, but suddenly people have to argue about nothing. grow up, idiots.


Well, well, well the pot is calling the kettle black.

Also the "hey, grow up" right next to "idiots" was a nice touch.


if you want to troll with me, you're at least a year late. i don't give a sh*t about any of this, and i certainly don't give a sh*t about you (or the bumbling sbrubles). i think your SAM/COR question was perfectly valid, the responses were valid, and gauging your damage loss or other possibilities to get rolls or whatever is also valid. the crybaby nonsense about group think is not valid. it's horribly boring and misguided. no one's railing against you in this thread, they're just stating their opinions and reacting to trolls. if you yourself are trolling, congratulations, you elicited moderately annoyed responses from 2 people on a board that no one seems to read or post on anymore.

edit: and the "no u" nonsense is really moronic if you're *not* trolling. you're arguing about tone and your feelings, ie nothing. shut up.

Edited, Nov 16th 2009 2:23am by milich


I'm just pointing out the obvious hypocracy. And of you "dont give a sh*t", you wouldnt do rates and posts on this thread. I've seen enough of your posts to know you have the ablity to control youself and make good/useful posts, but if someone butts heads with you; you result to name-calling, cursing, and general rudeness. This isnt the first time I've seen you drop several posts on something you "dont care about". I suggest you develop some internal fortitude to opposition, otherwise the big red button on your head will continue to be pressed at the amusement of others.
____________________________
Quote:
You can't transform numbers into other numbers like that. It'd just go on forever. That's like witchcraft.


There's one guy I know who
Quote:
is a big deal now.
#64 Nov 16 2009 at 7:21 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
599 posts
P.E.R.F.E.C.T.!!! All I can say about the doc's analysis about Milich. Rated up!!

I also loved this from Milich's post:
Quote:
you should try jogging or ironing to take that stress out

I guess someone should take his own advice XD
#65 Nov 16 2009 at 9:50 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
***
1,146 posts
If you have more than one roll that you could use such as you have a DRK, RNG, and SAM in the same party then /COR becomes better. It means that if you get an unlucky roll something else, and if you get lucky keep that new roll. Otherwise try again for what you were unlucky on. That would cut down on the time where you have a good roll vs a bad roll.

also as said before if you could know before the party started who was the weakest DD then subbing COR could be even more help, as the weakest would lose a little damage but the strongest would gain more damage.

Edited, Nov 16th 2009 10:56am by darkhorror
#66 Nov 16 2009 at 10:39 AM Rating: Decent
*
113 posts
Quote:
Dont get so touche about your precious DRK emo damage. I'll restate so you can understand better. If there is 4 DD and one is DRK, someone (not neccessarily your uber special DRK) in the party should sub COR for chaos roll giving an avg of 13.7% damage to everyone.
I'll clairify further:
DRK/SAM parses 30%
SAM/WAR1 parses 25%
WAR/SAM parses 25%
SAM/WAR2 parses 20%

Let's go wild and say the /WAR from SAM2 nets him 50% (33% of his total or 6.7% of the total parse) more damage than he would do as SAM/NIN. Instead he subs COR giving 13.7% to all 4 (13.7% of the total damage more). He now has helped his party more than /WAR.

Stamp that one qualified.


1.) Drop SAM2 or the DRK
2.) Get a COR.
3.) Get about the same damage output, and more exp per mob.
4.) Win.
____________________________
Studboy - Rank 10 Bastokan Tarutaru
96SAM/98NIN/95RNG/90COR/99PLD/91SMN/96WAR/96MNK/90RDM
95WHM/95BLM/96THF/99DRK/93BRD
Kannagi 0/1500 Heavy Metal Plates
Masamume 9/75 Isgebind Hearts
Ochain 13/1500 Heavy Metal Plates
Armegeddon 0/50 Carabosse Gems
Annihilator Stage 2
DynastyOfVirtue LS

#67 Nov 16 2009 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
Sage
Avatar
*****
10,813 posts
doctorugh wrote:
milich wrote:
doctorugh wrote:
milich wrote:
sbrubles, why do you only show up in flame wars, and why do you consistently write stupid things and then apologize for them? you should try jogging or ironing to take that stress out.

this thread is terrible. it's a simple question that got a simple answer, but suddenly people have to argue about nothing. grow up, idiots.


Well, well, well the pot is calling the kettle black.

Also the "hey, grow up" right next to "idiots" was a nice touch.


if you want to troll with me, you're at least a year late. i don't give a sh*t about any of this, and i certainly don't give a sh*t about you (or the bumbling sbrubles). i think your SAM/COR question was perfectly valid, the responses were valid, and gauging your damage loss or other possibilities to get rolls or whatever is also valid. the crybaby nonsense about group think is not valid. it's horribly boring and misguided. no one's railing against you in this thread, they're just stating their opinions and reacting to trolls. if you yourself are trolling, congratulations, you elicited moderately annoyed responses from 2 people on a board that no one seems to read or post on anymore.

edit: and the "no u" nonsense is really moronic if you're *not* trolling. you're arguing about tone and your feelings, ie nothing. shut up.

Edited, Nov 16th 2009 2:23am by milich


I'm just pointing out the obvious hypocracy. And of you "dont give a sh*t", you wouldnt do rates and posts on this thread. I've seen enough of your posts to know you have the ablity to control youself and make good/useful posts, but if someone butts heads with you; you result to name-calling, cursing, and general rudeness. This isnt the first time I've seen you drop several posts on something you "dont care about". I suggest you develop some internal fortitude to opposition, otherwise the big red button on your head will continue to be pressed at the amusement of others.


careful with the "i've seen other posts of yours", you don't want to be that guy who researches someone else to provide argument fodder. anyway, i don't give a **** about the personality games (the ones i'm chastising you for). i post b/c i have an opinion about including them in what could otherwise be a valid thread.

i know it's hard for people to see "i don't give a **** about xxx" and not interpret it as "OH YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING WHY DO YOU POST I GOT YOU". that's pretty sad. this whole thread is sad, albeit less sad than the usual flamewar i suppose.
____________________________
pahn
retired monk

i wish to be the red comet.
#68 Nov 16 2009 at 4:02 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
1,054 posts
milich wrote:
doctorugh wrote:
milich wrote:
doctorugh wrote:
milich wrote:
sbrubles, why do you only show up in flame wars, and why do you consistently write stupid things and then apologize for them? you should try jogging or ironing to take that stress out.

this thread is terrible. it's a simple question that got a simple answer, but suddenly people have to argue about nothing. grow up, idiots.


Well, well, well the pot is calling the kettle black.

Also the "hey, grow up" right next to "idiots" was a nice touch.


if you want to troll with me, you're at least a year late. i don't give a sh*t about any of this, and i certainly don't give a sh*t about you (or the bumbling sbrubles). i think your SAM/COR question was perfectly valid, the responses were valid, and gauging your damage loss or other possibilities to get rolls or whatever is also valid. the crybaby nonsense about group think is not valid. it's horribly boring and misguided. no one's railing against you in this thread, they're just stating their opinions and reacting to trolls. if you yourself are trolling, congratulations, you elicited moderately annoyed responses from 2 people on a board that no one seems to read or post on anymore.

edit: and the "no u" nonsense is really moronic if you're *not* trolling. you're arguing about tone and your feelings, ie nothing. shut up.

Edited, Nov 16th 2009 2:23am by milich


I'm just pointing out the obvious hypocracy. And of you "dont give a sh*t", you wouldnt do rates and posts on this thread. I've seen enough of your posts to know you have the ablity to control youself and make good/useful posts, but if someone butts heads with you; you result to name-calling, cursing, and general rudeness. This isnt the first time I've seen you drop several posts on something you "dont care about". I suggest you develop some internal fortitude to opposition, otherwise the big red button on your head will continue to be pressed at the amusement of others.


careful with the "i've seen other posts of yours", you don't want to be that guy who researches someone else to provide argument fodder. anyway, i don't give a sh*t about the personality games (the ones i'm chastising you for). i post b/c i have an opinion about including them in what could otherwise be a valid thread.

i know it's hard for people to see "i don't give a sh*t about xxx" and not interpret it as "OH YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING WHY DO YOU POST I GOT YOU". that's pretty sad. this whole thread is sad, albeit less sad than the usual flamewar i suppose.


LOL research, you have over 9000 posts and many that I've seen are very ...... rudeunsubtle. You are in every place I post and are "loud" about it(ie they stand out). It's akin to someone with a blue mohawk walking down main street in small town america. You get noticed, dont be so suprised.
____________________________
Quote:
You can't transform numbers into other numbers like that. It'd just go on forever. That's like witchcraft.


There's one guy I know who
Quote:
is a big deal now.
#69 Nov 16 2009 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
***
2,620 posts
doctorugh wrote:
Let's go wild and say the /WAR from SAM2 nets him 50% (33% of his total or 6.7% of the total parse) more damage than he would do as SAM/NIN. Instead he subs COR giving 13.7% to all 4 (13.7% of the total damage more). He now has helped his party more than /WAR.

Stamp that one qualified.



Its nothing new, whats been discussed /cor for sam. We know STP roll SAM/COR is generally no good, because you won't turn SAM into 5HIT (unless you XI) and the chances of knocking others a hit varies.

In regards to getting an average of 13.7% more att from SAM/COR with a DRK in the pty, can i ask you how you came up with 13.7% more att on average, considering a bust is -5% & nothing for melee for 5mins?

Also 13.7% more att doesn't mean 13.7% more DMG - its actually more for birds. Say a melee gets this boost on-top off 460att & a Bird with Dia II up using a Hagun with 4fSTR.

79 * (460/277 -0.35) = 103DMG

with 13.7% more att...

79 * (523/277 -0.35) = 121

The 13.7 att yields an additional 17.5% in the SAM's melee DMG (probably no affect or very little affect on the main part of SAM's dmg, which is ws (70%ws, 30% melee) but for other DD's, thats a nice addition.

BUT, why not just get an actual COR instead of a weak DD to make full advantage of that DRK in the pty. The DRK would keep its x-hit build + the huge buff hasso gives from /SAM, and the COR main gets to increase the 3DD's dmg by (just doubling your 13.7& to 27.4% average att from COR + DRK) to 35% more DMG for the 3DD#s + their own dmg adding ~5-15% to the parse, AND an ITG exp roll to top it all off. That many times better than a DD/COR, or any /COR-in-meripo stuff.

when you get to 75, you have completely fit into your job, enhancing it to the fullest for the pty. When your lvl10-40, thats the time to mix & match sj's for the good of the exp party.






____________________________
Taking a break.
#70 Nov 16 2009 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
Sage
Avatar
*****
10,813 posts
i'm not surprised to be noticed, but (believe it or not) i've had many posters on here try to Tear Down The Fearsome Milich (ooooo), and they almost always end up linking to random posts of mine over the years, which you have to admit is totally pathetic. i mean, seriously, it's one thing to advert to stuff you've happened across (i do it all the time, and it's all you've done so far), but once you start searching for posts to "call out" someone, you've really become a total ******* loser. admittedly, it would be pretty funny if you searched my posts for a post where i searched someone else's posts to call them out, but once things get meta all the rules change.

i don't think i could be any clearer than i have been. it's annoying when people take the "you just don't get my perspective" road in a conversation, but i guess i sort of have to take it. all i've tried to say in this thread is a) /COR no good b/c you sacrifice too much damage for too little benefit (which i said as an aside since i entered the thread re: a derail if i recall), and b) get over yourself with the "wahhh The Group always tries to stifle my individuality!"

i guess you and sbrubles are drawing me in by flattering my ego though. if you really want me to stop being mean and loud, you shouldn't play to my obvious self-involvement.

this thread is getting too long and i'm forgetting where the various strands are. it's certainly the case that posting about, you know, final fantasy xi and the job samurai would probably be a bit more interesting for lurkers happening into this forum. not that the SAM forums didn't die months ago or anything.
____________________________
pahn
retired monk

i wish to be the red comet.
#71 Nov 16 2009 at 6:08 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,054 posts
Quote:

In regards to getting an average of 13.7% more att from SAM/COR with a DRK in the pty, can i ask you how you came up with 13.7% more att on average, considering a bust is -5% & nothing for melee for 5mins?


Well, there is no reason to ever bust on chaos roll, you would just stick on unlucky 8 for a 6% att bonus.

As far as 13.7% its not exact (its actually a little higher),but I just took roll 4(lucky),6,7,8,9,10,11 and averaged them for 13.7%

You would have a 1/6 chance for 4 on the first roll, then if you didnt get that you would have a 1/6 change to hit each of the other rolls past 5.

Of course I agree BRD + COR is the ideal way to go. IDK about your server but they arent always available (nor a 2nd brd) when I'm wanting to merit. Generally I switch to COR when one isnt available, but doing that every time isnt exactly fun.


Edited, Nov 16th 2009 6:15pm by doctorugh
____________________________
Quote:
You can't transform numbers into other numbers like that. It'd just go on forever. That's like witchcraft.


There's one guy I know who
Quote:
is a big deal now.
#72 Nov 16 2009 at 6:24 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
1,054 posts
milich wrote:
i'm not surprised to be noticed, but (believe it or not) i've had many posters on here try to Tear Down The Fearsome Milich (ooooo), and they almost always end up linking to random posts of mine over the years, which you have to admit is totally pathetic. i mean, seriously, it's one thing to advert to stuff you've happened across (i do it all the time, and it's all you've done so far), but once you start searching for posts to "call out" someone, you've really become a total @#%^ing loser. admittedly, it would be pretty funny if you searched my posts for a post where i searched someone else's posts to call them out, but once things get meta all the rules change.

i don't think i could be any clearer than i have been. it's annoying when people take the "you just don't get my perspective" road in a conversation, but i guess i sort of have to take it. all i've tried to say in this thread is a) /COR no good b/c you sacrifice too much damage for too little benefit (which i said as an aside since i entered the thread re: a derail if i recall), and b) get over yourself with the "wahhh The Group always tries to stifle my individuality!"

i guess you and sbrubles are drawing me in by flattering my ego though. if you really want me to stop being mean and loud, you shouldn't play to my obvious self-involvement.

this thread is getting too long and i'm forgetting where the various strands are. it's certainly the case that posting about, you know, final fantasy xi and the job samurai would probably be a bit more interesting for lurkers happening into this forum. not that the SAM forums didn't die months ago or anything.


Wow, I knew you were an egomaniac, but you just took it to the next level with the "Fearsome milich" and thinking people are scouring your posts to get a window into your greatness. LOL, you are too much, dont change on my account.
____________________________
Quote:
You can't transform numbers into other numbers like that. It'd just go on forever. That's like witchcraft.


There's one guy I know who
Quote:
is a big deal now.
#73 Nov 16 2009 at 7:50 PM Rating: Excellent
*
60 posts
Just to try and keep on subject slightly, finished analysis of how likely each job will actually benefit from sam roll (had real work to do so took a while) Also assumed same STP for WS and TP phase even though this often doesn't occur just for simplicity sakes, plus I didn't really wanna analyze THAT deep into everything.

Fortunately most of the 2H jobs have access to the same STP gear so that part of the analysis is simpler. (SAM excluded) Included /NIN stuff for reference even though the trend nowadays seems to be /SAM all the way. Didn't include SAM since it's pretty much been covered.

WAR

4 STP - Fake 7-hit
5 STP - 7-hit
19 STP - Fake 6-hit
22 STP - 6-hit
43 STP - Fake 5-hit
46 STP - 5-hit

7-hit is easily obtainable.
Rolls of 7+ required for /NIN with Rajas/Brutal get a Fake 6-hit
Rolls of 9+ required for /NIN with Rajas/Brutal get a 6-hit
Rolls of Lucky+ required for /SAM with 6-hit (Rajas/Brutal/Ech?) to get a Fake 5-hit
Rolls of 11 required for /SAM with 6-hit to get a 5-hit

DRK - Sickle/Nagle (For Nagle just remove all the Fake stuff)

5 STP - Fake 7-hit
6 STP - 7-hit
19 STP - Fake 6-hit
23 STP - 6-hit
42 STP - Fake 5-hit
48 STP - 5-hit

7-hit is easily obtainable.
Rolls of 7+ required for /NIN with Rajas/Brutal get a Fake 6-hit
Rolls of 10+ required for /NIN with Rajas/Brutal get a 6-hit
Rolls of Lucky+ required for /SAM with 6-hit (Rajas/Brutal/Ech/Chiv? or maybe Rose, dunno what people use or if people even bother to get non Fake 6-hit) to get a Fake 5-hit. 10+ if using Rose.
Rolls of 11 required for /SAM with 6-hit to get a 5-hit

DRK - Scythe

13 STP - Fake 6-hit
16 STP - 6-hit
34 STP - Fake 5-hit
39 STP - 5-hit

Any 7+ roll will give 6-hit to /NIN.
6-hit easily obtainable with /SAM.
Rolls 7+ will give Fake 5-hit with basic Rajas/Brutal for /SAM.
Rolls Lucky+ will give 5-hit with basic Rajas/Brutal for /SAM.

DRG - 492 Lance

5 STP - Fake 7-hit
8 STP - 7-hit
22 STP - Fake 6-hit
26 STP - 6-hit
45 STP - Fake 5-hit
51 STP - 5-hit

Fake 7-hit easily obtainable. 7-hit reasonable easy.
Rolls 7+ will give Fake 6-hit with 7-hit (Rajas/Brutal/Askar or Aurum or Rose) for /NIN.
Rolls 8 or 9+ (depending on third STP piece) will give 6-hit with 7-hit for /NIN.
Just looking at the 26 for 6-hit, I know actual builds must be using more than 26 in TP and less in WS but dunno what off the top of my head so the number itself is semi fishy. But looks like you need Lucky+ to get Fake 5-hit (Not sure about getting non Fake)

So yeah, this was probably too long, had too many assumptions and what not but there's just too many gear combos that people use for me to want to account for them all. But just looking at it in general, if 2H's are /NINing, the roll will probably benefit them. If they're /SAMing, you'll need very high rolls to give a benefit. 528 scythe DRK's seem to be an exception as they seem to benefit in almost all circumstances. And I guess if they don't know jack about STP and don't gear for it at all, chances are it'll benefit them.

I'd imagine the hardest part about actually doing this in reality is convincing the weakest member that they're gimp and should /cor for the benefit of the whole party, lol.
#74 Nov 16 2009 at 8:06 PM Rating: Good
Sage
Avatar
*****
10,813 posts
doctorugh wrote:
milich wrote:
i'm not surprised to be noticed, but (believe it or not) i've had many posters on here try to Tear Down The Fearsome Milich (ooooo), and they almost always end up linking to random posts of mine over the years, which you have to admit is totally pathetic. i mean, seriously, it's one thing to advert to stuff you've happened across (i do it all the time, and it's all you've done so far), but once you start searching for posts to "call out" someone, you've really become a total @#%^ing loser. admittedly, it would be pretty funny if you searched my posts for a post where i searched someone else's posts to call them out, but once things get meta all the rules change.

i don't think i could be any clearer than i have been. it's annoying when people take the "you just don't get my perspective" road in a conversation, but i guess i sort of have to take it. all i've tried to say in this thread is a) /COR no good b/c you sacrifice too much damage for too little benefit (which i said as an aside since i entered the thread re: a derail if i recall), and b) get over yourself with the "wahhh The Group always tries to stifle my individuality!"

i guess you and sbrubles are drawing me in by flattering my ego though. if you really want me to stop being mean and loud, you shouldn't play to my obvious self-involvement.

this thread is getting too long and i'm forgetting where the various strands are. it's certainly the case that posting about, you know, final fantasy xi and the job samurai would probably be a bit more interesting for lurkers happening into this forum. not that the SAM forums didn't die months ago or anything.


Wow, I knew you were an egomaniac, but you just took it to the next level with the "Fearsome milich" and thinking people are scouring your posts to get a window into your greatness. LOL, you are too much, dont change on my account.


need to research my posts harder; i do the "tear down the great milich" bit like every time someone argues with me, it's awesome.
____________________________
pahn
retired monk

i wish to be the red comet.
#75 Nov 17 2009 at 3:51 AM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts
Sandmasterr wrote:
In regards to getting an average of 13.7% more att from SAM/COR with a DRK in the pty, can i ask you how you came up with 13.7% more att on average, considering a bust is -5% & nothing for melee for 5mins?


A clarification on the average Chaos Roll as /cor: it should actually average 13.2%, assuming you stay on unlucky 8. That's a guaranteed never-bust strategy. Determined the average from a spreadsheet that I built that calculates cumulative probabilities for every possible roll combo vs total bonus.

Average including rerolling on an 8 (and ignoring bust penalties) is only 13.4%, so there's absolutely no reason to risk it.
#76 Nov 17 2009 at 4:18 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
599 posts
Milich, not trying to ruin what we achieved via PMs, but did you notice that you on several posts pointed how long this thread has become and yet you didn't write not even one post that could be considered remotely relevant for the subject of the thread? You didn't even attempt to answer a question I made specifically to you regarding a topic that both you and I considered important.

Just to refresh, this was the question:
Quote:
About that point we both spoke of (that a less SJ dependent person should be the one to attempt this, if at all useful). Isn't however SAM the less SJ dependent among the 2h weapon wielder jobs? This isn't meant as a rhetorical question, I in fact do not know some of the other 2h weapon wielder jobs, but it seems that every single one of them would get a higher boost from subbing SAM then SAM would from subbing DRG.

It's not for Milich only, I'd welcome anyone to answer this. I'm just pointing it to him for the reason stated above.
#77 Nov 17 2009 at 4:41 AM Rating: Good
Sage
Avatar
*****
10,813 posts
sbrubles wrote:
Milich, not trying to ruin what we achieved via PMs, but did you notice that you on several posts pointed how long this thread has become and yet you didn't write not even one post that could be considered remotely relevant for the subject of the thread? You didn't even attempt to answer a question I made specifically to you regarding a topic that both you and I considered important.

Just to refresh, this was the question:
Quote:
About that point we both spoke of (that a less SJ dependent person should be the one to attempt this, if at all useful). Isn't however SAM the less SJ dependent among the 2h weapon wielder jobs? This isn't meant as a rhetorical question, I in fact do not know some of the other 2h weapon wielder jobs, but it seems that every single one of them would get a higher boost from subbing SAM then SAM would from subbing DRG.

It's not for Milich only, I'd welcome anyone to answer this. I'm just pointing it to him for the reason stated above.


SAM is indeed less sub dependent than WAR DRG DRK, simply because it gets hasso naturally. well, if the WAR is voking it might need /NIN i guess (WARs can argue about that). regardless, since sTP won't shave off a hit (edit: for everyone, usually*) and ATT roll barely benefits you anyway, i don't think it's worth it.

i'm not really interested in crunching numbers though; you all can do that. i was criticizing--wait, i already said what i was criticizing. "but that's not even what the thread's about, wahhhh!" yeah no sh*t, that's why i was criticizing whining about group think in this thread.

Edited, Nov 17th 2009 5:44am by milich
____________________________
pahn
retired monk

i wish to be the red comet.
#78 Nov 17 2009 at 4:51 AM Rating: Good
***
2,620 posts
Quote:
Quote:
About that point we both spoke of (that a less SJ dependent person should be the one to attempt this, if at all useful). Isn't however SAM the less SJ dependent among the 2h weapon wielder jobs? This isn't meant as a rhetorical question, I in fact do not know some of the other 2h weapon wielder jobs, but it seems that every single one of them would get a higher boost from subbing SAM then SAM would from subbing DRG.


It's not for Milich only, I'd welcome anyone to answer this. I'm just pointing it to him for the reason stated above.


Other 2Hers get to reduce their hits to 100% TP by 1, one and get an extra ~12ws's an hour from Meditate. That alone doesn't beat /DRG's dmg, but when they have Hasso up, that'll probably overtake the dmg /DRG gives SAM for /SAM as a sj to other 2H'ers.

The difference is, /DRG's boosts are static and always there. 5%ACC, attack bonus, and 60jumps/hour which is the equiveant of around 10ws's+the DMG from them for a Hagun user, not including misses or DA's. Then the earring can add up to 25% DMG.

Thats a lot more benefit than a 2H who rarely uses Hasso, but obviously, Hasso's 10% Haste is a huge buff for any /SAM DD, and if they use Hasso full-time, then /SAM would provide more DMG than /DRG.
____________________________
Taking a break.
#79 Nov 17 2009 at 4:59 AM Rating: Decent
Sage
Avatar
*****
10,813 posts
Sandmasterr wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
About that point we both spoke of (that a less SJ dependent person should be the one to attempt this, if at all useful). Isn't however SAM the less SJ dependent among the 2h weapon wielder jobs? This isn't meant as a rhetorical question, I in fact do not know some of the other 2h weapon wielder jobs, but it seems that every single one of them would get a higher boost from subbing SAM then SAM would from subbing DRG.


It's not for Milich only, I'd welcome anyone to answer this. I'm just pointing it to him for the reason stated above.


Other 2Hers get to reduce their hits to 100% TP by 1, one and get an extra ~12ws's an hour from Meditate. That alone doesn't beat /DRG's dmg, but when they have Hasso up, that'll probably overtake the dmg /DRG gives SAM for /SAM as a sj to other 2H'ers.

The difference is, /DRG's boosts are static and always there. 5%ACC, attack bonus, and 60jumps/hour which is the equiveant of around 10ws's+the DMG from them for a Hagun user, not including misses or DA's. Then the earring can add up to 25% DMG.

Thats a lot more benefit than a 2H who rarely uses Hasso, but obviously, Hasso's 10% Haste is a huge buff for any /SAM DD, and if they use Hasso full-time, then /SAM would provide more DMG than /DRG.


you also have to take into account that most 2handers are too sheepish to fulltime hasso outside of a 3 support party. but if you have a 3 support party and one of them isn't COR, surely it would be better if 1 of the supports subbed COR. also, you're bound to be getting hasted in such a party + 2x march, in which case the haste is doing a ton for you.

i also think the question is kind of academic, because really if you're fighting birds you ought to be using polearm and subbing /WAR with low support, /DRG with tons of support. realistically, if you're any good and you're in a sort of thrown together party (where you'd /COR), your SAM/WAR polearm will probably end up doing an inordinate amount of the party's damage, meaning that the "how much damage do i lose compared to helping the rest of the party with /COR?" question gets all the more relevant.

whoa, i just got trolled. i got a surge of "i'm annoyed by this talk of 'YOUR DAMAGE ISN'T ALL THAT MATTERS!'" as if bringing up your damage implied that it was all that matters. wow. that sucks. oh well.
____________________________
pahn
retired monk

i wish to be the red comet.
#80 Nov 17 2009 at 6:06 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
599 posts
Well I'm actually referring more about a hypothetical case in which some DD in the party would need to choose a support SJ (not necessarily COR, and not necessarily and existing situation). So in other words, it's out of curiosity.
When I 1st asked the question, the reason was another, it's true.

Sandmasterr, just to clarify, my interest in this question was a comparing between a MH glitched DD main with no SJ and that DD main with his best DD SJ. What I mean is, instead of comparing SAM/DRG or PLM SAM/WAR vs. DRK/SAM, I was more interested in knowing the DPS increment between SAM vs. SAM/DRG, and then comparing that increment with the one from DRK vs. DRK/SAM, do you know what I mean?

I know by experience that the increment between a RNG vs. a gun RNG/SAM is huge, but I didn't play DRK, WAR or DRG at 75 to know.

Milich, the numbers are probably unnecessary I think. I think a general overview was good enough, thanx ^^ to you both.
#81 Nov 17 2009 at 5:08 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
6,481 posts
SB wrote:
'm happy to say I agree with him and that I can finally leave this discussion.
Ever notice that when people say this they never follow through?
SB wrote:
Milich, not trying to ruin what we achieved via PMs,
I can't believe you actually read/responded to trolling PMs Milich, "mark as read" is there for a reason man. Plus it denies the rest of the world the opportunity to get mild entertainment off his BS.
Kin wrote:
A clarification on the average Chaos Roll as /cor: it should actually average 13.2%, assuming you stay on unlucky 8. That's a guaranteed never-bust strategy. Determined the average from a spreadsheet that I built that calculates cumulative probabilities for every possible roll combo vs total bonus.

Sand wrote:
79 * (460/277 -0.35) = 103DMG
with 13.7% more att...
79 * (523/277 -0.35) = 121
The 13.7 att yields an additional 17.5% in the SAM's melee DMG (probably no affect or very little affect on the main part of SAM's dmg, which is ws (70%ws, 30% melee) but for other DD's, thats a nice addition.
Food doesn't get multiplied, so (assuming miths+13.2% inc+100 base+Gcolibri def)

100*(460/327 -0.35)=105.7
100*(512/327-.35)=121.6

15% increase to melee, aka a ~4.5% total increase to GK SAM, so if you have 3x GK SAM and 1x scythe DRK, the DRK can't be hurt more than ~13.5% if they want to at least break even (hasso alone being much more than that)
Ugh, M.D. wrote:
Stamp that one qualified.
Ty, it wasn't clear from your previous statement. DRK roll is certainly more appealing than a worthless SAM roll, but if you have GK SAMs w/ that DRK (or if you don't have a DRK or if you can find a COR and/or if you can get gear/food/buffs/debuffs to get atk ratio to a reasonable amount) the atk boost is still not as good for overall group dmg as using a DD sub.

so to sum it up: if you're in a crappy party, with 4x crappy DDs, and crappy back line, and everyone is using multihit WS, and you have a DRK, and you don't have a COR, and you have a melee with /COR, and your back line refuses to /COR, and you can't get people to stop being retarded 1 melee/COR+DRK roll -might- do -slightly- better overall dmg (~3%). I completely concede that point to you sir.



/COR+SAM roll is still crap though, and the real answer is:
ChickMagnet, some edits wrote:
1.) Drop SAM2 or the DRK
2.) Get a COR (or really any other support)
3.) Get better damage output, and more exp per mob.
4.) Win.




annnnnd back to CoD:MW2
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#82 Nov 17 2009 at 5:35 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,620 posts
Shbrubles wrote:
Sandmasterr, just to clarify, my interest in this question was a comparing between a MH glitched DD main with no SJ and that DD main with his best DD SJ. What I mean is, instead of comparing SAM/DRG or PLM SAM/WAR vs. DRK/SAM, I was more interested in knowing the DPS increment between SAM vs. SAM/DRG, and then comparing that increment with the one from DRK vs. DRK/SAM, do you know what I mean?


Umm I pretty much answered that with how I worded my post.

Also, DPS means very little, unless someone was to spend an hour or 2 doing a full comparison inc gear, buffs and food.


The question is silly imo, a SAM/DRG can do its thing with just haste buffs, other DD's need haste & att buffs (and sometimes an ACC buff) to really strut their stuff. Even is SAM is slightly less dependant on their sj than other 2Hers, other 2Hers need more buffing to keep up with good SAMs.

They also need what our job offers to make their 2Hbuilds powerful, whereas we can happily reach 25% haste using our sj, get extra tp/dmg from its JA's and increase our ACC% which is the other important stat a SAM needs to charge up its ~1K Gekko's.

I can tell you the increment /DRG gives my SAM in optimal haste merit/zerg conditions

5% Haste =25% DMG
5%ACC = 5.6% DMG
10att = ~0.8% DMG as it only probably affects our melee dmg, if the 10att does help our ws's at times, its ~2.5% DMG

So ~32% additional DMG from /DRG w/o including 40jumps/hour's DMG+TP they add.

For comparing DRK vs DRK/SAM, I'll guarentee you sam's /DRG gives more if that DRK uses SE+TE more, and less if that DRK likes to ride hasso to the max.

What is it you want to find out by this?

____________________________
Taking a break.
#83 Nov 18 2009 at 4:08 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
599 posts
Nothing, Sandmasterr. Like I said, just curiosity because we had said "should leave it to less SJ dependent jobs", and I figured SAM was that job.

It's silly, like you said. When I 1st asked, a couple of days ago, I had another intention. This last time was just because the 1st was unanswered.





Quote:
Ever notice that when people say this they never follow through?

If by this you mean "you're still posting", I wanna point that I did leave said discussion. The subject is different now. "Reading issues?" comes to mind now, eh?

Also, I found it hilarious you classified my PMs as "trolling" while suggesting you haven't read them. Very smart indeed, nice going.

Edited, Nov 18th 2009 5:13am by sbrubles
#84 Nov 18 2009 at 5:13 AM Rating: Decent
Sage
Avatar
*****
10,813 posts
sbrubles wrote:
Nothing, Sandmasterr. Like I said, just curiosity because we had said "should leave it to less SJ dependent jobs", and I figured SAM was that job.

It's silly, like you said. When I 1st asked, a couple of days ago, I had another intention. This last time was just because the 1st was unanswered.





Quote:
Ever notice that when people say this they never follow through?

If by this you mean "you're still posting", I wanna point that I did leave said discussion. The subject is different now. "Reading issues?" comes to mind now, eh?

Also, I found it hilarious you classified my PMs as "trolling" while suggesting you haven't read them. Very smart indeed, nice going.

Edited, Nov 18th 2009 5:13am by sbrubles


you really should stop picking fights on alla and then following with touchy feely PMs. if you're trolling it's pretty low impact, but if you're sincere it's actually kind of worrying. i was serious about the jogging.
____________________________
pahn
retired monk

i wish to be the red comet.
#85 Nov 18 2009 at 5:35 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
599 posts
Would you clarify which fight I picked? Was I not having a reasonable conversation with you and Sandmasterr until Shintasama's post?

Yes it's true, I joined his fight while I could have simply ignored him (or gone jogging), but you're absolutely wrong in attributing the origin of this recent to me. Wouldn't you agree you're placing too much effort in blaming me for unproductive discussions that (given this last one) clearly was started by someone else?

Besides, if I had gone jogging, I wouldn't have answered to SM.

Edited, Nov 18th 2009 7:54am by sbrubles
#86 Nov 18 2009 at 3:43 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
6,481 posts
SB wrote:
The subject is different now.
BS
SB wrote:
you haven't read them. Very smart indeed, nice going.
I thought so, nothing productive could come out of me reading them, why waste the time?
Milich wrote:
touchy feely PMs.
See? I'm glad I ignored them now.
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#87 Nov 18 2009 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
Sage
Avatar
*****
10,813 posts
sbrubles wrote:
Would you clarify which fight I picked? Was I not having a reasonable conversation with you and Sandmasterr until Shintasama's post?

Yes it's true, I joined his fight while I could have simply ignored him (or gone jogging), but you're absolutely wrong in attributing the origin of this recent to me. Wouldn't you agree you're placing too much effort in blaming me for unproductive discussions that (given this last one) clearly was started by someone else?

Besides, if I had gone jogging, I wouldn't have answered to SM.

Edited, Nov 18th 2009 7:54am by sbrubles


i don't give a ****, and no i won't clarify. if i were your parent or getting paid, i'd write more, but i'm not.
____________________________
pahn
retired monk

i wish to be the red comet.
#88 Nov 18 2009 at 6:19 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,054 posts
milich wrote:
sbrubles wrote:
Would you clarify which fight I picked? Was I not having a reasonable conversation with you and Sandmasterr until Shintasama's post?

Yes it's true, I joined his fight while I could have simply ignored him (or gone jogging), but you're absolutely wrong in attributing the origin of this recent to me. Wouldn't you agree you're placing too much effort in blaming me for unproductive discussions that (given this last one) clearly was started by someone else?

Besides, if I had gone jogging, I wouldn't have answered to SM.

Edited, Nov 18th 2009 7:54am by sbrubles


i don't give a sh*t, and no i won't clarify. if i were your parent or getting paid, i'd write more, but i'm not.


Of course you are getting paid, it's just in 2-cent(s) increments. Hey, with this economy everything adds up.
____________________________
Quote:
You can't transform numbers into other numbers like that. It'd just go on forever. That's like witchcraft.


There's one guy I know who
Quote:
is a big deal now.
#89 Nov 19 2009 at 1:28 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
shintasama wrote:
SB wrote:
The subject is different now.
BS
Topic of summoning!
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#90 Nov 19 2009 at 10:07 AM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
6,481 posts
bsphil wrote:
shintasama wrote:
SB wrote:
The subject is different now.
BS
Topic of summoning!
All right BS, hit SB with a hyperbeam!
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#91 Nov 19 2009 at 1:42 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
1,054 posts
shintasama wrote:
bsphil wrote:
shintasama wrote:
SB wrote:
The subject is different now.
BS
Topic of summoning!
All right BS, hit SB with a hyperbeam!


He has yet to break the latent for that. Gimp.
____________________________
Quote:
You can't transform numbers into other numbers like that. It'd just go on forever. That's like witchcraft.


There's one guy I know who
Quote:
is a big deal now.
#92 Nov 19 2009 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
6,481 posts
doctorugh wrote:
shintasama wrote:
bsphil wrote:
shintasama wrote:
SB wrote:
The subject is different now.
BS
Topic of summoning!
All right BS, hit SB with a hyperbeam!

He has yet to break the latent for that. Gimp.
What do you mean he doesn't have hyperbeam?!? Oh, just use splash attack!
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#93 Nov 19 2009 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
Sage
Avatar
*****
10,813 posts
mikuru beam.

Edited, Nov 19th 2009 3:50pm by milich
____________________________
pahn
retired monk

i wish to be the red comet.
#94 Jan 25 2010 at 11:52 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
880 posts
Bit of a necro but on COR I have found SAM roll to be a very weak buff even at full strength. The reason I say that is because it is a bit of a passive buff meaning if you don't use it then it adds no damage. Unlike most of the other rolls where you can be AFK and be buffed with SAM roll if the other DDs aren't firing off WSs at 100, assuming the sTP removed a hit, then the buff did nothing for the overall dmg.

You would probably be better off rolling a weak COR roll than SAM honestly, not saying you should do that at 75.
____________________________
Knightsls.com

#95 Jan 25 2010 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
6,481 posts
You know this was a COR SJ, not main argument right? lol
Quote:
The reason I say that is because it is a bit of a passive buff meaning if you don't use it then it adds no damage.
Technically not true with GK/GA as the extra TP raises fTP for the WS (as does extra tp from "over" rolls). Also, this largely depends on how the SAMs are geared, for my build (49sTP), and doubling up on 6 or under (except lucky 2), you will always have enough sTP to drop a hit unless the COR busts (which depending on how much they're merited is a non-issue with fold). Your 2nd roll should probably be COR roll in most situations though.

Other situations are situational(duh)
napkin math estimations of highest worth follows):

w/ just gk SAM-> SAM+COR
w/ just p SAM-> DRK+COR
w/ DRK + gk SAM-> SAM+COR
w/ DRK + p SAM-> DRK+COR
w/ WAR + gk SAM-> SAM+COR
w/ WAR + p SAM-> DRK+WAR
etcetc

Edited, Jan 25th 2010 1:37pm by shintasama
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#96 Jan 25 2010 at 1:25 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
880 posts
Quote:
You know this was a COR SJ, not main argument right? lol


Yep and why i say even when using full strength SAM roll the improvement to the party hasn't been that great.
____________________________
Knightsls.com

#97 Jan 25 2010 at 3:56 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
6,481 posts
DarcAtvar wrote:
Quote:
You know this was a COR SJ, not main argument right? lol


Yep and why i say even when using full strength SAM roll the improvement to the party hasn't been that great.
mk, just checking
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#98 Jan 27 2010 at 9:02 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,890 posts
DarcAtvar wrote:
Quote:
You know this was a COR SJ, not main argument right? lol


Yep and why i say even when using full strength SAM roll the improvement to the party hasn't been that great.


This is based on the party not the roll then. SAM's get the majority of their damage from WS, so any improvement to melee damage is minute when compared to WSing more often. WAR/SAM, DRG/SAM and DRK/SAM all with appropriate x-hit builds can also benefit from WSing more often because they tend to be 50/50 damage split.

I've seen amazing returns from SAM roll with a SAM in the party, going from 6 hit to 5 hit without loosing haste is made of win. But if the DD are not wsing at 100 TP... then you have bigger issues then which buff to use. They probably are not eating food, and are watching TV while playing.
____________________________
RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#99 Jan 28 2010 at 1:24 AM Rating: Excellent
****
7,104 posts
Alla would be a much calmer place if annoyed and/or butthurt posters would realise that getting the last word is actually less hurtful than ignoring someone.
#100 Jan 28 2010 at 10:56 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
4,369 posts
doctorugh wrote:
Again, I dont even have SAM; but when a SAM shows up /NIN, it really baffles me. Perhaps a SAM who wasn't quite up to snuff on gear(lower on total parse compared to others) might /COR and help his party more than /WAR would. With penta, I'm thinking you are probably right that /WAR would be overall better than 1 hit less for 3-4 ppl if you are the top (or close) DD.

Unfortunately, it's not really a choice you can make in most cases.

When a samurai gets invited, he gets asked to go /NIN. If this is because the healer is lazy or because everyone else isnt good enough to take their equal share in the hate isnt really up for discussion.

There's so many samurai out there. If you get a party invite, you're going to shout out "Yes please!" no matter what crazy tricks you have to pull off for that exp. That includes subbing the most godaweful subjub for samurai ever imagined that does absolutely nothing for the job, outside of significantly lowering it's DoT, ever since seigan got introduced.

It pains me to go /NIN to a party. Double recast timers for shadows arent helping either. I probably take more damage /NIN than i do /WAR, but i disgress. I'd rather just give in and get some EXP instead of sitting around Whitegate and be lfp forever. There's always hope the next party you get is better.

(Ofcourse, only the really stellar parties that know what they're doing let you go /WAR in the first place)
____________________________
[XI] Surivere of Valefor
[XIV] Sir Surian Bedivere of Behemoth
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/2401553/
#101 Jan 28 2010 at 6:01 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
6,481 posts
KojiroSoma wrote:
doctorugh wrote:
Again, I dont even have SAM; but when a SAM shows up /NIN, it really baffles me. Perhaps a SAM who wasn't quite up to snuff on gear(lower on total parse compared to others) might /COR and help his party more than /WAR would. With penta, I'm thinking you are probably right that /WAR would be overall better than 1 hit less for 3-4 ppl if you are the top (or close) DD.

Unfortunately, it's not really a choice you can make in most cases.

When a samurai gets invited, he gets asked to go /NIN. If this is because the healer is lazy or because everyone else isnt good enough to take their equal share in the hate isnt really up for discussion.

There's so many samurai out there. If you get a party invite, you're going to shout out "Yes please!" no matter what crazy tricks you have to pull off for that exp. That includes subbing the most godaweful subjub for samurai ever imagined that does absolutely nothing for the job, outside of significantly lowering it's DoT, ever since seigan got introduced.

It pains me to go /NIN to a party. Double recast timers for shadows arent helping either. I probably take more damage /NIN than i do /WAR, but i disgress. I'd rather just give in and get some EXP instead of sitting around Whitegate and be lfp forever. There's always hope the next party you get is better.

(Ofcourse, only the really stellar parties that know what they're doing let you go /WAR in the first place)
Last time I got asked to /NIN I stopped casting shadows after ~15min, my dmg picked up considerably, and nobody noticed I was flipping between SETE/Hasso ~_~;
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 15 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (15)