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Sub job COR?Follow

#27 Nov 13 2009 at 5:07 PM Rating: Decent
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shintasama wrote:
Ugh, M.D. wrote:
but when a SAM shows up /NIN, it really baffles me.
don't get us wrong, we hate these people too
Ugh, M.D. wrote:
/DRG has +10 att, jump, h.jump, +10 acc and 5% haste(minus what you would normal use there)
plus 9STR, plus they get whatever additional slots they would have to waste on more sTP to get a 5-hit w/ gimp rolls (likely 3-4% haste, 2%DA/12acc, some WS gear).
Ugh, M.D. wrote:
Losing all /DRG benefits might drop 20% of your total damage
at a decent haste rate wyvern earring is ~15% by itself (in a max haste situation it's ~+25% dmg), jumps are +~5%, acc(swaping bushi) +~2%dmg, 7STR(swaping bushi) +~2.5% dmg, atk is +~1%(swaping bushi); so conservatively you should be +~27% dmg higher /DRG before loosing those other slots to get a 5-hit
Ugh, M.D. wrote:
Adding /COR samurai roll drops everyone from 6 hit WS to 5 hit WS.
Once again, they all have to give up more slots in addition to getting gimp roll to drop a hit, so the overall gain from 5hit is much less than you think.


Thank you for this feedback, posting in this fashion really helps me see the arguments against /cor with sam roll. . It's probably never the case where everyone will need just a bit more store TP to put them over the edge. The racial stat calculator I use only showed a 4 STR difference, but this point is minor.

I can rarely accept something at face value and need to hash/agrue it out to understand the reasons why something will/wont work. Thank you for your time.
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#28 Nov 13 2009 at 5:36 PM Rating: Good
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doctorugh wrote:
shintasama wrote:
Ugh, M.D. wrote:
but when a SAM shows up /NIN, it really baffles me.
don't get us wrong, we hate these people too
Ugh, M.D. wrote:
/DRG has +10 att, jump, h.jump, +10 acc and 5% haste(minus what you would normal use there)
plus 9STR, plus they get whatever additional slots they would have to waste on more sTP to get a 5-hit w/ gimp rolls (likely 3-4% haste, 2%DA/12acc, some WS gear).
Ugh, M.D. wrote:
Losing all /DRG benefits might drop 20% of your total damage
at a decent haste rate wyvern earring is ~15% by itself (in a max haste situation it's ~+25% dmg), jumps are +~5%, acc(swaping bushi) +~2%dmg, 7STR(swaping bushi) +~2.5% dmg, atk is +~1%(swaping bushi); so conservatively you should be +~27% dmg higher /DRG before loosing those other slots to get a 5-hit
Ugh, M.D. wrote:
Adding /COR samurai roll drops everyone from 6 hit WS to 5 hit WS.
Once again, they all have to give up more slots in addition to getting gimp roll to drop a hit, so the overall gain from 5hit is much less than you think.


Thank you for this feedback, posting in this fashion really helps me see the arguments against /cor with sam roll. . It's probably never the case where everyone will need just a bit more store TP to put them over the edge. The racial stat calculator I use only showed a 4 STR difference, but this point is minor.

I can rarely accept something at face value and need to hash/agrue it out to understand the reasons why something will/wont work. Thank you for your time.
Actually, it is 4, my bad I must have not been on the same race. YW though.
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#29 Nov 13 2009 at 5:39 PM Rating: Default
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I member when I subbed DRG back before the 2handed update, before it got hot. And I used to argue with a NIN all day that my SAM could outparse his. Same thing with SAM all together... then ppl got on it and really watered it down to the point FFXI went from classy to ashy. If you forget your playing FFXI to have fun, then ffxi really isnt a great game to forget it on since you HAVE to have fun with others.
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#30 Nov 13 2009 at 5:58 PM Rating: Decent
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doctorugh wrote:
milich wrote:
in a merit party, if you're throwing up buffs "between mobs", something is pretty wrong. and yeah, losing /DRG is losing haste, which is compounded by the animation delay. it's really just not a good idea. better to have BRD or RDM or something be the one subbing /COR.


Seriously of all the stuff to nitpick about /COR, the animation delay for 1-2sec (I have 75 COR, so I've maybe rolled a couple times), is a pretty poor one.

/DRG has +10 att, jump, h.jump, +10 acc and 5% haste(minus what you would normal use there)
It also can shed hate if you are worried that your mage fell alseep.
These are valid points.

The roll delay......a poor arguement.

Best case for /cor: You only found one bard, which means you have 4 DD who are two-handers. You are an avg contributor to the total group. (25%)

Adding /COR samurai roll drops everyone from 6 hit WS to 5 hit WS. All two-handers get 50% of thier damage from WS in this grp (I know most SAM, WAR and DRG do, idk DRK). This should be an increase of about 8.33% (?) for the total grp. Losing all /DRG benefits might drop 20% of your total damage or 5% of the total group (no i didnt crunch the numbers exactly - not enough time at work, but its probably an overexaggeration if anything). O, and also you lose another 0.1% for the roll animation <<. So overall thats a win for /COR.

Poor case for /COR: You have a BRD and COR, you gear kicks *** and the rest of your party sucks and the the other DD have low WS to TP damage. You are in at 45% of the total damage. Again /COR bumps the grp up 8.33%, but droping 25% of 45% is now 11.25% of the total. Everyone in the party puts you on a Blist, beacause you /cor and lost nearly 3% of the exp they could have had. Shame on you for thinking outside the box.

Lastly, sometime you kill all the birds and sometimes the BRD slacks on pulling, so every once in a great while you have a sec or two btw mobs.

Bard #2/cor or rdm/cor sounds fine to me too as long as the dia, buffs, and heals are on point.


my point was simply that you're losing speed by not subbing /DRG, to which is added the extra ability delay. it was in response to the absurd claim that you can do something "in between mobs" in a merit party. don't get testy.
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#31 Nov 13 2009 at 6:21 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
my point was simply that you're losing speed by not subbing /DRG, to which is added the extra ability delay. it was in response to the absurd claim that you can do something "in between mobs" in a merit party. don't get testy.


You falsely are jumping to the conclusion that I'm just twiddling my thumbs waiting for another mob to be pulled like this is 2003. I'm thinking its absurd that you have never run out of mobs to kill before. And of course I'll get testy, any dope can see you are trying to get that response. And out of boredom courtesy, I give it to you. You wouldn't add words like "testy" or "absurd" if you didn't want a little banter.
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#32 Nov 13 2009 at 7:10 PM Rating: Good
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doctorugh wrote:
Quote:
my point was simply that you're losing speed by not subbing /DRG, to which is added the extra ability delay. it was in response to the absurd claim that you can do something "in between mobs" in a merit party. don't get testy.


You falsely are jumping to the conclusion that I'm just twiddling my thumbs waiting for another mob to be pulled like this is 2003. I'm thinking its absurd that you have never run out of mobs to kill before. And of course I'll get testy, any dope can see you are trying to get that response. And out of boredom courtesy, I give it to you. You wouldn't add words like "testy" or "absurd" if you didn't want a little banter.


no.
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#33 Nov 14 2009 at 8:46 AM Rating: Decent
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This thread was pretty funny. :thumbs up:
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#34 Nov 14 2009 at 10:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Brisko wrote:
This thread was pretty funny. :thumbs up:

"quick question"
"quick anwser"
"I don't believe you"
"you don't have to know what you're doing as long as other people don't care"
"STFU CB0"
"Here's why"
"I still don't believe you, give me another reason"
"Here are some more"
"Well, you don't have to be a **** about it"
"STFU"





Quick question my ***.
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#35 Nov 14 2009 at 12:00 PM Rating: Default
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shintasama wrote:
Brisko wrote:
This thread was pretty funny. :thumbs up:

"quick question"
"quick anwser"
"I don't believe you"
"you don't have to know what you're doing as long as other people don't care"
"STFU CB0"
"Here's why"
"I still don't believe you, give me another reason"
"Here are some more"
"Well, you don't have to be a **** about it"
"STFU"





Quick question my ***.


Honestly, most of the posts, other than yours, are just filled with no real information. I rated up all your posts, specifically because of this.

Should have gone:

"Quick question (ie short)"
"Thoughtful answer (recieved 8 posts in)"
"Well what about this? (typical follow up question)"
"Well, heres why that doesn't work"
"Thank you for your time"

I probably should be specific in my original post that I didn't want opinions or conjecture. I should have asked, "Please refuse this in an analytical fashion, numbers help me understand better. Also people who regurgitate what they are told, but don't understand it, or those who give misinformation (/cor rolls dont get job bonus), please forego posting."



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You can't transform numbers into other numbers like that. It'd just go on forever. That's like witchcraft.


There's one guy I know who
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is a big deal now.
#36 Nov 14 2009 at 4:34 PM Rating: Decent
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No, because you're hurting yourself way more than you're helping others.
No because you're there to do damage, not give out gimped buffs.

I bet you didn't give wonder if you gave (Edit: I think it's more appropriated this way) the slightest thought over the matter before saying such nonsense (not much offense meant)



Quote:
I rated up all your posts,

An encouraging mistake for people to be rude: you rate up/down because of who's posting, not because of what's being informed. Honestly, I think that's pathetic.


Quote:
specifically because of this

Ok that post was pretty awesome indeed

Edited, Nov 14th 2009 5:47pm by sbrubles
#37Coyoteblackzero, Posted: Nov 14 2009 at 5:36 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm not into packing butter (⌐_⌐ )
#38 Nov 14 2009 at 6:18 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Quote:
I rated up all your posts,


An encouraging mistake for people to be rude: you rate up/down because of who's posting, not because of what's being informed. Honestly, I think that's pathetic.



I don't care about "rude" all that much, it just identifies a personality type. (My personality type typically pushes people's buttons, but I generally get what I'm looking for.)
The specific rude person added useful information to understanding the reasoning behind his thoughts. I was looking for detailed information, which is what I got from him.

Also, rate up/down means about nothing as its typically a "group-think" response to ideas. Most people that post have only a vague impression of why they sub what they do. It's why you see so many people /nin in the dunes. And you rarely see /DRG from 20-29 even though its the best DD sub for those levels.
Most times "group-think" comes to a correct desicion about what is best, but because the are so many variables, there can be odd situtations where something "outside the box" can work better. Most communities (FFXI and RL stuff) hate this and railagainst it most times without knowing why, other than its how they were taught/brought up so to speak.

I did have to bold the slight hypocracy in your statement because it amused me.

Quote:
I'm starting to think your a chick with a crush on me shin. No way you can be a guy with such a feminine personality. Or maybe your just attracted to guys that move with color


The first line sounds a bit Scotish (I've not seen your shins). The second line clearly indicates my wife's strong impact on me over the past few years , but I'm happy to measure ***** about masculine stuff if you'd like. I'm not sure what the third line means, but I'm intrigued by the colors of your words.

Also, I rated all your posts up so you wouldnt feel left out.

Edited, Nov 14th 2009 6:42pm by doctorugh
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You can't transform numbers into other numbers like that. It'd just go on forever. That's like witchcraft.


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#39 Nov 14 2009 at 7:08 PM Rating: Decent
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who ******* cares? /COR is a bad idea for the stated reasons. no ******* sermons about how Society Hates The Individual necessary.
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#40 Nov 14 2009 at 7:29 PM Rating: Default
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milich wrote:
who @#%^ing cares? /COR is a bad idea for the stated reasons. no ******* sermons about how Society Hates The Individual necessary.


How about a sermon on drunk posting?
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You can't transform numbers into other numbers like that. It'd just go on forever. That's like witchcraft.


There's one guy I know who
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is a big deal now.
#41 Nov 14 2009 at 7:47 PM Rating: Decent
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doctorugh wrote:
milich wrote:
who @#%^ing cares? /COR is a bad idea for the stated reasons. no ******* sermons about how Society Hates The Individual necessary.


How about a sermon on drunk posting?


how about no sermons at all?
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#42 Nov 14 2009 at 11:18 PM Rating: Default
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milich wrote:
doctorugh wrote:
milich wrote:
who @#%^ing cares? /COR is a bad idea for the stated reasons. no ******* sermons about how Society Hates The Individual necessary.


How about a sermon on drunk posting?


how about no sermons at all?


Must you have the last word?
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You can't transform numbers into other numbers like that. It'd just go on forever. That's like witchcraft.


There's one guy I know who
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#43 Nov 15 2009 at 12:18 AM Rating: Decent
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doctorugh wrote:
milich wrote:
doctorugh wrote:
milich wrote:
who @#%^ing cares? /COR is a bad idea for the stated reasons. no ******* sermons about how Society Hates The Individual necessary.


How about a sermon on drunk posting?


how about no sermons at all?


Must you have the last word?


you keep assuming i'm posting for petty reasons. it's all in your head. i would rather not hear your self-righteous whining, and i'm bored by your overthought accusations. go back to posting about damage and be nice.
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#44Coyoteblackzero, Posted: Nov 15 2009 at 8:04 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) LOL after I re-read what I put up it does come off as if im referrin to ya doc ^^ my apologies. I kinda rather not pull out a measuring stick to prove anything btw though, I was model for 2 years and sorry to say, even though i'm a magnum killa, the *** guys I modeled with were desert eagles compared to me. Lets just have a friendly arm wrestle instead, or play some Madden online.
#45 Nov 15 2009 at 8:04 AM Rating: Default
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Something I found weird about this thread: pretty much everyone saying /COR is bad is comparing its DPS with /DRG or /WAR. If I hadn't read some of the assumptions over /COR's gimped buff I'd just stop here calling you guys retarded. It's pretty **** obvious that /DRG and /WAR will beat /COR's DPS, but that's not what was being discussed.

The idea behind any non DD SJ (cept /NIN) is obviously not to increase your own DPS, you'd be increasing the DPS from the other 3 DDs in you merit party in detriment of your own. Being able to drop your TP rate to a 5-hit would soften the decrease of the SAM DPS (a good factor when compared to other non-DD SJs). For the other DDs, however, increasing their TP rate to shave a hit on that TP build (read: 4 DDs shaving one hit each on their TP build rate while only one of them would be gimping his total DMG output) does seem like a decent idea.

I don't have the slightest clue if /COR is good or not, but affirming it isn't taking in account only your own DPS decrease is kinda dumb.

OBS: I'm not taking in account what rolls you'd need and how rare they are

Hurting your epeen must seem intolerable for some here, eh?




Late edit: forgot to answer to this:
Quote:
Also, rate up/down means about nothing as its typically a "group-think" response to ideas. Most people that post have only a vague impression of why they sub what they do. It's why you see so many people /nin in the dunes. And you rarely see /DRG from 20-29 even though its the best DD sub for those levels.
Most times "group-think" comes to a correct desicion about what is best, but because the are so many variables, there can be odd situtations where something "outside the box" can work better. Most communities (FFXI and RL stuff) hate this and railagainst it most times without knowing why, other than its how they were taught/brought up so to speak.

Not too long ago, someone who'd come arguing that his parse had shown that /DRG was the best overall DD sub for SAM, he'd be gotten rated down to sub-default under the argument that he didn't know how to gear/play /WAR. These same people who'd show the math proving /DRG was inferior would later stop attempting to convince the 1st person with reason and start at that point calling him names that would "insult" his intellect. Now the really interesting part is that these later posts from this hypothetical case would have gotten rated up also, "not because of what was being said, but because of who had said it". I'm sure some older posters here may find this case somewhat familiar. If you don't, keep your eyes opened for future updates in the threads.

Quote:
I did have to bold the slight hypocracy in your statement because it amused me.

If you believe that classifying as pathetic the act of worshiping a person by hitting a green arrow in total disregard for what he has said is considered rude, then I apologize for giving the impression that I was attempting to set myself apart from the rude people

But I'm sorry if you think I'm trying to offend you, I'm really not. I'm just trying to help people see that the rate system can be used in a better way - to help people realize what posts are worth reading.

Edited, Nov 15th 2009 9:27am by sbrubles

Edited, Nov 15th 2009 9:40am by sbrubles
#46 Nov 15 2009 at 8:26 AM Rating: Default
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sbrubles wrote:
One thing I didn't get from this thread. Pretty much everyone saying /COR is bad is comparing its DPS with /DRG or /WAR. If I hadn't read some of the assumptions over /COR's gimped buff I'd just stop here calling you guys retarded. It's pretty **** obvious that /DRG and /WAR will beat /COR's DPS, but that's not what was being discussed.

The idea behind any non DD SJ (cept /NIN) is obviously not to increase your own DPS, you'd be increasing the DPS from the other 3 DDs in you merit party in detriment of your own. Being able to drop your TP rate to a 5-hit would soften the decrease of the SAM DPS (a good factor when compared to other non-DD SJs). For the other DDs, however, increasing their TP rate to shave a hit on that TP build (read: 4 DDs shaving one hit each on their TP build rate while only one of them would be gimping his total DMG output) does seem like a decent idea.

OBS: I'm not taking in account what rolls you'd need and how rare they are

Hurting your epeen must seem intolerable for some here, eh?

This is exactly what I tryed to say... just I was more interested in getting myself into a girls body than going to english class at the end of the day in HS. So I come off real ****headed when I try to speak. Meh, but anyway YES, if they don't have EPEEN shooting out they're asses they get upset. Which is why I bet non of them play on BRD. Or with a group that "really" cares about them. Whats funny is, the more "friends" you have in PT the better SAM/COR rolls. Good example would be a merit PT where you don't have a BRD or RDM, but there is options for a SAM/DNC and a SAM/COR to join your PT. They can argue SAM/DRG is best, but no one wants to hear that cause they want to merit. So they can /DRG all they want, but really, they will be SAM/DRG by themselves to play with themselves. While the gimp SAM/COR and SAM/DNC stack up merits.

What really is hilarious is in 3~4y I've been playing all my best (300+Chain) Merit PTs didnt have either BRD,COR, or a healing mage, SAM/DNC +DRG/Mage is enough to kill anything. (Meritwise) Sniff sniff, anyone smell ratedown?
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#47 Nov 15 2009 at 8:42 AM Rating: Decent
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hehe my best merit party I was RNG instead of SAM. My 2nd best I was SAM/NIN instead of /DRG. Only on my 3rd - and almost all others, since not many parties liked a RNG joining and I avoided if at all possible the /NIN - I was /DRG.

You get a lot more options to increase your merit rate when your party gets a bit better.


Quote:
just I was more interested in getting myself into a girls body

This sentence might get you in trouble ^.- hehehe

Edited, Nov 15th 2009 9:45am by sbrubles
#48 Nov 15 2009 at 9:49 AM Rating: Decent
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But I'm sorry if you think I'm trying to offend you, I'm really not. I'm just trying to help people see that the rate system can be used in a better way - to help people realize what posts are worth reading.



I'm rarely offended, and its not hero worship or whatever. He was the only one that disagreed with actual information (a rare thing).

My best exp per hour have been from organizing blue mages burns, getting 30k+ on a few occasions. I wont say I'm the inventor of this, but I'd never heard about it before doing it myself. So yeah, the occasional thought outside the box can have good results. I got plenty of "blue mage cant DD that well", because of closed minds; but thats the way things go when working against "group-think".
Ever notice the nasty tone people take when something new gets introduced?

As far as /COR, I'm thinking the overall damage could be higher or lower depending on alot of factors which I've mentioned earlier.
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#49 Nov 15 2009 at 2:22 PM Rating: Decent
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alla SAM forums: 90% weird *** people railing against "the regulars" and "the mainstream", 9% "the regulars" expressing confusion or disgust with the 90%, 1% "the regulars" posting links to posts they wrote over a year ago to answer game questions.

sbrubles,

it's perfectly appropriate to talk about your own damage; obviously the hit to your damage is what you have to compare to the boost in everyone else's damage. why are you so eager to be indignant?
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#50 Nov 15 2009 at 2:52 PM Rating: Decent
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To avoid unnecessary discussion, I'll ignore your question as if it simply wasn't there in the 1st place. I'll just move on to your valid comment, that actually deserves attention and an appropriated response:

Quote:
it's perfectly appropriate to talk about your own damage; obviously the hit to your damage is what you have to compare to the boost in everyone else's damage.

Yes, that's my point (as it was the point of some others in the thread also). Now read the thread again and see how long it took you to say it and you may figure it wasn't all that obvious. In fact, not even your own previous posts are remotely related to your last.

Note that even though it was said right at the beginning of the thread, some people still insisted in comparing the combo's DMG output with DD subs. Making those people understand what was being discussed was party's DMG output (and not the /COR's) is a necessary step for the discussion to take a positive rout. Edit: by positive rout I don't mean everyone agreeing with everyone, but everyone understanding the premises of the discussion, which obviously wasn't the case

Also, observe the difference between praising über DMG and being stuck with "SAM is DD so I can only DD" paradigm. It was proven wrong just before /DNC's release by analyzing its abilities along with the fast TP building of SAM + Soboro. Having broken that paradigm, you should accept that there may be other viable non-pure-DD combos. While I'm not suggesting going SAM/RDM for example, just like /DNC can take advantage of SAM's fast TP, /COR may or may not offer a considerable boost to the other classes, a boost that may surpass the loss of the SAM's DMG.

Of course, this could be performed by anyone else in the SAM's party, so it's seems it's a matter of who'd loose less by gimping the sub.
Edit: reading more carefully I did find something you said in the thread with which I agree (reason why I risked the above, you had said it already):
Quote:
make someone less sub dependent sub /COR


Edited, Nov 15th 2009 4:56pm by sbrubles
#51 Nov 15 2009 at 3:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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One thing that hasn't been brought up, since you only get one roll as a /cor, busting becomes very dangerous as you actually get jacked down to a 7 hit for the full duration of the bust. This makes rolling on an unlucky (6) a kind of risky proposition. It's probably better to just suck the bad roll and temp switch rolls to reroll and that lowers the overall effectiveness of the buff.
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