Sub job COR?Follow

I dont have a 75 SAM, but had a quick question for you all.

In merit parties, sam's usually sub nin, war, or rng(rare).

Anyone ever try /COR with samurai roll? You should be able to roll about STP18-35, which should drop you to a 5-hit fairly easily, plus it has the benefit of bonusing your other melee the same amount.

Probably would work best when the other melee are 2-handers and you can drop thier hits-to-WS by 1 (DRK, WAR, DRG) and increase overall damage.

No, for the same reasons why SAM/BRD wouldn't work for March.

If you want a COR in a merit party, /sea COR 75 inv or make friends with one and try inviting with /tells. If another SAM showed up to a merit PT I was leading as /COR I would assume they forgot to change their subjob and would ask them to correct that. For Merit PTs you'll want /WAR or /DRG (ideally, for the +haste etc etc) /RNG is difficult enough to justify in terms of damage output, /COR would be a fairly terrible idea.

Edit:

Then if that's the case, please stop playing. Or posting.

Edited, Nov 12th 2009 3:51pm by Beltenebros

Well the arguement isn't how much it might hurt your epeen, but how useful for the total party.

3 people with 17% more WS > 22 acc for yourself

And COR are not always available for every party, and even if they were, they should be rolling Chaos + Corsiar roll. In which case a SAM/COR would still be beneficial.

I'm not trying to ram this idea through, I just need a more analytical response than "No way, doesn't work, bad idea". I need to understand the reasoning behind your thoughts before I can completely grasp it. I'm not a person who says, "Well so-and-so said it, therefore it must be true."



I dont even have SAM at 75, but I do enjoy looking at things on paper than seem fesable and then testing them (parse). Sometimes they work well (blue mage burn, rdm/dnc (front-line melee + main heal)), othertimes they work less good. Unfortunately I dont have SAM at 75 so I can't test it.

Edited, Nov 12th 2009 3:14pm by doctorugh

ok, no because you (and the other PT members, which means they need to have the gear planned beforehand) need to be sacrificing additional gear slots to consistently get the increase. No because you're not getting the positive benefits offered by other subs. No, because you're hurting yourself way more than you're helping others. No because non-SAM jobs have a lower WS:melee ratio and get much less benefit from dropping a hit (if any w/ gear restrictions). No because you're there to do damage, not give out gimped buffs.

In fact I just tested chaos roll with DRK/COR. You get half of the roll, including the job bonus.

For SAM roll as /cor you would get the following with a sam in party:

2 (lucky) = STP +21
6 (unlucky) = STP +7 (statistically you would double up on this)
7 = STP +13
8 = STP +15
9 = STP +16
10 = STP +17
11 = STP +25

I dont know enough about SAM and typical gear to know how much STP you need for the lower hit build, but if its 13 or less, it could be useful. I know the augmented GKT can get pretty close, so IDK if that would factor in as a worthwhile weapon swap.



Technically if this moves you to the next hit build lower it won't be gimped at all, since thats all COR main would be able to do with SAM roll. I rarely roll SAM roll as cor main since its generally weaker than other rolls available, or perhaps if you have you a 2BRD merit party and the healer is not completely gimp; the "princess bard" could /COR for greater party benefit.

I hope you're not doing this on merit party..or else you phail..Please don't let Gigasnail or the dark community see this post of yours.

LOL, oh noes!! I'm not going to confirm or deny this as I'm curious of what Gigasnail and his dark minions might do to me.

You are now officially my favorite poster. rate up!

fixed

more colour :/

looooool

Yeah, I didn't even think about penta really. I know GKT WS doesn't get as big a boost from beserk, so I figured losing it wouldn't be as detrimental to WS damage. Let me address a couple points:

200 att for berzerk is somewhat off, it should be closer to 125 and its only up 60% of the time. It's not actually 25% of your att, as it doesn't stack with food. If we are talking about birds, I think the PDIF att caps at 722 and thats without dia (I think dia3 puts it close to 660). I know when I'm on war and have a cor rolling chaos roll, I'm over the cap with berserk, making it somewhat less effective than the full 25%.

The animation for roll should deduct about 1-2 sec every 5 minutes and you could do that between mobs, so it really should be fairly insignificant.

Again, I dont even have SAM; but when a SAM shows up /NIN, it really baffles me. Perhaps a SAM who wasn't quite up to snuff on gear(lower on total parse compared to others) might /COR and help his party more than /WAR would. With penta, I'm thinking you are probably right that /WAR would be overall better than 1 hit less for 3-4 ppl if you are the top (or close) DD.



Edited, Nov 13th 2009 1:11pm by doctorugh

Seriously of all the stuff to nitpick about /COR, the animation delay for 1-2sec (I have 75 COR, so I've maybe rolled a couple times), is a pretty poor one.

/DRG has +10 att, jump, h.jump, +10 acc and 5% haste(minus what you would normal use there)
It also can shed hate if you are worried that your mage fell alseep.
These are valid points.

The roll delay......a poor arguement.

Best case for /cor: You only found one bard, which means you have 4 DD who are two-handers. You are an avg contributor to the total group. (25%)

Adding /COR samurai roll drops everyone from 6 hit WS to 5 hit WS. All two-handers get 50% of thier damage from WS in this grp (I know most SAM, WAR and DRG do, idk DRK). This should be an increase of about 8.33% (?) for the total grp. Losing all /DRG benefits might drop 20% of your total damage or 5% of the total group (no i didnt crunch the numbers exactly - not enough time at work, but its probably an overexaggeration if anything). O, and also you lose another 0.1% for the roll animation <<. So overall thats a win for /COR.

Poor case for /COR: You have a BRD and COR, you gear kicks ass and the rest of your party sucks and the the other DD have low WS to TP damage. You are in at 45% of the total damage. Again /COR bumps the grp up 8.33%, but droping 25% of 45% is now 11.25% of the total. Everyone in the party puts you on a Blist, beacause you /cor and lost nearly 3% of the exp they could have had. Shame on you for thinking outside the box.

Lastly, sometime you kill all the birds and sometimes the BRD slacks on pulling, so every once in a great while you have a sec or two btw mobs.

Bard #2/cor or rdm/cor sounds fine to me too as long as the dia, buffs, and heals are on point.

Thank you for this feedback, posting in this fashion really helps me see the arguments against /cor with sam roll. . It's probably never the case where everyone will need just a bit more store TP to put them over the edge. The racial stat calculator I use only showed a 4 STR difference, but this point is minor.

I can rarely accept something at face value and need to hash/agrue it out to understand the reasons why something will/wont work. Thank you for your time.

I member when I subbed DRG back before the 2handed update, before it got hot. And I used to argue with a NIN all day that my SAM could outparse his. Same thing with SAM all together... then ppl got on it and really watered it down to the point FFXI went from classy to ashy. If you forget your playing FFXI to have fun, then ffxi really isnt a great game to forget it on since you HAVE to have fun with others.

You falsely are jumping to the conclusion that I'm just twiddling my thumbs waiting for another mob to be pulled like this is 2003. I'm thinking its absurd that you have never run out of mobs to kill before. And of course I'll get testy, any dope can see you are trying to get that response. And out of boredom courtesy, I give it to you. You wouldn't add words like "testy" or "absurd" if you didn't want a little banter.

This thread was pretty funny. :thumbs up:

Honestly, most of the posts, other than yours, are just filled with no real information. I rated up all your posts, specifically because of this.

Should have gone:

"Quick question (ie short)"
"Thoughtful answer (recieved 8 posts in)"
"Well what about this? (typical follow up question)"
"Well, heres why that doesn't work"
"Thank you for your time"

I probably should be specific in my original post that I didn't want opinions or conjecture. I should have asked, "Please refuse this in an analytical fashion, numbers help me understand better. Also people who regurgitate what they are told, but don't understand it, or those who give misinformation (/cor rolls dont get job bonus), please forego posting."

who @#%^ing cares? /COR is a bad idea for the stated reasons. no jackoff sermons about how Society Hates The Individual necessary.

how about no sermons at all?

you keep assuming i'm posting for petty reasons. it's all in your head. i would rather not hear your self-righteous whining, and i'm bored by your overthought accusations. go back to posting about damage and be nice.

Something I found weird about this thread: pretty much everyone saying /COR is bad is comparing its DPS with /DRG or /WAR. If I hadn't read some of the assumptions over /COR's gimped buff I'd just stop here calling you guys retarded. It's pretty damn obvious that /DRG and /WAR will beat /COR's DPS, but that's not what was being discussed.

The idea behind any non DD SJ (cept /NIN) is obviously not to increase your own DPS, you'd be increasing the DPS from the other 3 DDs in you merit party in detriment of your own. Being able to drop your TP rate to a 5-hit would soften the decrease of the SAM DPS (a good factor when compared to other non-DD SJs). For the other DDs, however, increasing their TP rate to shave a hit on that TP build (read: 4 DDs shaving one hit each on their TP build rate while only one of them would be gimping his total DMG output) does seem like a decent idea.

I don't have the slightest clue if /COR is good or not, but affirming it isn't taking in account only your own DPS decrease is kinda dumb.

OBS: I'm not taking in account what rolls you'd need and how rare they are

Hurting your epeen must seem intolerable for some here, eh?




Late edit: forgot to answer to this:

Not too long ago, someone who'd come arguing that his parse had shown that /DRG was the best overall DD sub for SAM, he'd be gotten rated down to sub-default under the argument that he didn't know how to gear/play /WAR. These same people who'd show the math proving /DRG was inferior would later stop attempting to convince the 1st person with reason and start at that point calling him names that would "insult" his intellect. Now the really interesting part is that these later posts from this hypothetical case would have gotten rated up also, "not because of what was being said, but because of who had said it". I'm sure some older posters here may find this case somewhat familiar. If you don't, keep your eyes opened for future updates in the threads.


If you believe that classifying as pathetic the act of worshiping a person by hitting a green arrow in total disregard for what he has said is considered rude, then I apologize for giving the impression that I was attempting to set myself apart from the rude people

But I'm sorry if you think I'm trying to offend you, I'm really not. I'm just trying to help people see that the rate system can be used in a better way - to help people realize what posts are worth reading.

Edited, Nov 15th 2009 9:27am by sbrubles

Edited, Nov 15th 2009 9:40am by sbrubles

hehe my best merit party I was RNG instead of SAM. My 2nd best I was SAM/NIN instead of /DRG. Only on my 3rd - and almost all others, since not many parties liked a RNG joining and I avoided if at all possible the /NIN - I was /DRG.

You get a lot more options to increase your merit rate when your party gets a bit better.



This sentence might get you in trouble ^.- hehehe

Edited, Nov 15th 2009 9:45am by sbrubles

alla SAM forums: 90% weird ass people railing against "the regulars" and "the mainstream", 9% "the regulars" expressing confusion or disgust with the 90%, 1% "the regulars" posting links to posts they wrote over a year ago to answer game questions.

sbrubles,

it's perfectly appropriate to talk about your own damage; obviously the hit to your damage is what you have to compare to the boost in everyone else's damage. why are you so eager to be indignant?

One thing that hasn't been brought up, since you only get one roll as a /cor, busting becomes very dangerous as you actually get jacked down to a 7 hit for the full duration of the bust. This makes rolling on an unlucky (6) a kind of risky proposition. It's probably better to just suck the bad roll and temp switch rolls to reroll and that lowers the overall effectiveness of the buff.