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Sub job COR?Follow

#1 Nov 12 2009 at 11:36 AM Rating: Decent
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I dont have a 75 SAM, but had a quick question for you all.

In merit parties, sam's usually sub nin, war, or rng(rare).

Anyone ever try /COR with samurai roll? You should be able to roll about STP18-35, which should drop you to a 5-hit fairly easily, plus it has the benefit of bonusing your other melee the same amount.
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#2 Nov 12 2009 at 11:47 AM Rating: Good
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If they /COR, what are the job for the rest of PT member?
#3 Nov 12 2009 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
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VZX wrote:
If they /COR, what are the job for the rest of PT member?


Probably would work best when the other melee are 2-handers and you can drop thier hits-to-WS by 1 (DRK, WAR, DRG) and increase overall damage.
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#4 Nov 12 2009 at 12:26 PM Rating: Decent
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doctorugh wrote:
I dont have a 75 SAM, but had a quick question for you all.

In merit parties, sam's usually sub nin, war, or rng(rare).

Anyone ever try /COR with samurai roll? You should be able to roll about STP18-35, which should drop you to a 5-hit fairly easily, plus it has the benefit of bonusing your other melee the same amount.

I went over this also, don't have COR unlocked but took a look cause I like messing in new/fun things.
What I discoverd though is that for SAM to get the 5hit (which is why I was interested) you'd have to roll an #11 and have +3StoreTP more than the 46 base. Rolling 11 is EXTREMELY RARE, and risky, ask any COR main.
Whats really kinda ironic though, is that with the storeTP 5hit hopes would work pretty well with DRK/SAMs, since they have higher delay/TP weapons, but... with DRK in PT, you'd be rolling Chaos over SAM roll anyway, its a "warcry" for PT.
From what I gatherd, the best SAM/COR bonus would be Hunters roll.(with RNG in PT)

Biggest drawbacks would be if you bust, (requiring you to add+5StoreTP to you gear ) or if your PT doesn't let you /COR ^^ But if you like playing on it and PT lets ya, have a good time. FFXI is on its last leg, if your not having fun, Its really better to do something else now.
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#5 Nov 12 2009 at 2:38 PM Rating: Default
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No, for the same reasons why SAM/BRD wouldn't work for March.

If you want a COR in a merit party, /sea COR 75 inv or make friends with one and try inviting with /tells. If another SAM showed up to a merit PT I was leading as /COR I would assume they forgot to change their subjob and would ask them to correct that. For Merit PTs you'll want /WAR or /DRG (ideally, for the +haste etc etc) /RNG is difficult enough to justify in terms of damage output, /COR would be a fairly terrible idea.

Edit:
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But if you like playing on it and PT lets ya, have a good time. FFXI is on its last leg, if your not having fun, Its really better to do something else now.


Then if that's the case, please stop playing. Or posting.

Edited, Nov 12th 2009 3:51pm by Beltenebros
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#6 Nov 12 2009 at 3:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Ugh, M.D. wrote:
/COR

no
belt wrote:
CB0 wrote:
But if you like playing on it and PT lets ya, have a good time. FFXI is on its last leg, if your not having fun, Its really better to do something else now.
Then if that's the case, please stop playing. Or posting.
yes
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#7 Nov 12 2009 at 3:09 PM Rating: Decent
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/RNG is difficult enough to justify in terms of damage output, /COR would be a fairly terrible idea.


Well the arguement isn't how much it might hurt your epeen, but how useful for the total party.

3 people with 17% more WS > 22 acc for yourself

And COR are not always available for every party, and even if they were, they should be rolling Chaos + Corsiar roll. In which case a SAM/COR would still be beneficial.

I'm not trying to ram this idea through, I just need a more analytical response than "No way, doesn't work, bad idea". I need to understand the reasoning behind your thoughts before I can completely grasp it. I'm not a person who says, "Well so-and-so said it, therefore it must be true."

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But if you like playing on it and PT lets ya, have a good time


I dont even have SAM at 75, but I do enjoy looking at things on paper than seem fesable and then testing them (parse). Sometimes they work well (blue mage burn, rdm/dnc (front-line melee + main heal)), othertimes they work less good. Unfortunately I dont have SAM at 75 so I can't test it.

Edited, Nov 12th 2009 3:14pm by doctorugh
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#8 Nov 12 2009 at 3:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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/cor rolls are gimp, typically half that of a non-job bonus roll. Last I heard, you do not get the full bonus of the roll. IF you got the roll with the job bonus, then there would be no question /cor would be awesome...but this is not the case.


You could prolly expect to get 2-20 STP. Chances are on average you'ld get around 10. So you won't get a 5 hit without some stupid amount of STP gear, slots better spent on a hasted 6 hit GK.

But, if you could get at least 10 stp on average, yo could get a 5 hit PT build. But by the same token you would lack the attack of /war, but if it gave the other 2 people in your party sufficient stp, it might work sometimes.

Before it is even worth considering you need to find the +STP per number, because if you can't get more than 10 on average it is not worth trying for IMO.
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#9 Nov 12 2009 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
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ok, no because you (and the other PT members, which means they need to have the gear planned beforehand) need to be sacrificing additional gear slots to consistently get the increase. No because you're not getting the positive benefits offered by other subs. No, because you're hurting yourself way more than you're helping others. No because non-SAM jobs have a lower WS:melee ratio and get much less benefit from dropping a hit (if any w/ gear restrictions). No because you're there to do damage, not give out gimped buffs.
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#10 Nov 12 2009 at 4:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not trying to ram this idea through, I just need a more analytical response than "No way, doesn't work, bad idea". I need to understand the reasoning behind your thoughts before I can completely grasp it. I'm not a person who says, "Well so-and-so said it, therefore it must be true."


And I respect that. It keeps stupidity from being blindly perpetuated and it's always good to question things.

The main reason why this wouldn't be a great idea for most parties (read: those that are optimizing themselves to maximize XP in a merit situation) is that it's essentially a level 75 Buttersheep (WAR/WHM iirc): the flexbility afforded by the combination may seem appealing (hey, I can bash stuff AND heal) but the main issue is that the flexibility comes at the price of being able to do neither desired job (bashing or healing) as well as a player/job which is dedicated to said task. As a SAM in a merit PT, we really only have one job: smacking things with our katanas until our keyboards cry in prostest from the repeated macro TP/WS gearswap macro mashing (I swear my ALT, 5, and 6 keys are going to rebel one of these days) if we take our focus away from damage dealing, we're underperforming the task that we've been selected for. Arguably, /NIN would fall into this category as well since casting time is not a time in which damage is being done but that's an argument for another thread. Or 30.

Outside of the "DDs are there to do damage*" argument, these two points should further explain why /COR is not optimal for a merit party subjob

Quote:
/cor rolls are gimp, typically half that of a non-job bonus roll. Last I heard, you do not get the full bonus of the roll. IF you got the roll with the job bonus, then there would be no question /cor would be awesome...but this is not the case.


Quote:
ok, no because you (and the other PT members, which means they need to have the gear planned beforehand) need to be sacrificing additional gear slots to consistently get the increase. No because you're not getting the positive benefits offered by other subs. No, because you're hurting yourself way more than you're helping others. No because non-SAM jobs have a lower WS:melee ratio and get much less benefit from dropping a hit (if any w/ gear restrictions). No because you're there to do damage, not give out gimped buffs.


Ok... so Shin's last point is more or less the same as my argument but still, I think this should clear it up.

*=again, this is for traditional merit/xp parties where the goal is to optimize xp earned/hour. If you're just ******** around, more power to ya. I have a friend who really enjoys MNK/BRD for random LS outings but I've never seen her roll up to a merit PT with it

Edited, Nov 12th 2009 5:58pm by Beltenebros
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#11 Nov 12 2009 at 7:01 PM Rating: Decent
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/cor rolls are gimp, typically half that of a non-job bonus roll. Last I heard, you do not get the full bonus of the roll. IF you got the roll with the job bonus, then there would be no question /cor would be awesome...but this is not the case.


You could prolly expect to get 2-20 STP. Chances are on average you'ld get around 10. So you won't get a 5 hit without some stupid amount of STP gear, slots better spent on a hasted 6 hit GK.

But, if you could get at least 10 stp on average, yo could get a 5 hit PT build. But by the same token you would lack the attack of /war, but if it gave the other 2 people in your party sufficient stp, it might work sometimes.


In fact I just tested chaos roll with DRK/COR. You get half of the roll, including the job bonus.

For SAM roll as /cor you would get the following with a sam in party:

2 (lucky) = STP +21
6 (unlucky) = STP +7 (statistically you would double up on this)
7 = STP +13
8 = STP +15
9 = STP +16
10 = STP +17
11 = STP +25

I dont know enough about SAM and typical gear to know how much STP you need for the lower hit build, but if its 13 or less, it could be useful. I know the augmented GKT can get pretty close, so IDK if that would factor in as a worthwhile weapon swap.

Quote:
not give out gimped buffs.


Technically if this moves you to the next hit build lower it won't be gimped at all, since thats all COR main would be able to do with SAM roll. I rarely roll SAM roll as cor main since its generally weaker than other rolls available, or perhaps if you have you a 2BRD merit party and the healer is not completely gimp; the "princess bard" could /COR for greater party benefit.
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#12 Nov 12 2009 at 11:02 PM Rating: Good
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I dont know enough about SAM and typical gear to know how much STP you need for the lower hit build,
You need 74sTP for a 5-hit with a 450 GK, minimally we roll in ~46sTP, but usually ~48-49sTP, so you need to be giving up at least one other slot and/or rolling very lucky. DRK's roll in ~20-21 sTP and need ~43-44sTP for the next lower hit build so they're in the same boat.
Quote:
I know the augmented GKT can get pretty close,
If you're talking about Rindomaru, you can get a 5-hit fairly easily w/o rolls and not even close to a 4 hit, so it's once again not worth it.
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the "princess bard" could /COR for greater party benefit.
they could/should if they aren't giving out heals, or they could just spam dia II/blind/para/etc, I think the overall benefit is about the same.

Edited, Nov 13th 2009 12:12am by shintasama
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#13 Nov 12 2009 at 11:03 PM Rating: Default
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In fact I just tested chaos roll with DRK/COR. You get half of the roll, including the job bonus.

I hope you're not doing this on merit party..or else you phail..Please don't let Gigasnail or the dark community see this post of yours.
#14 Nov 12 2009 at 11:05 PM Rating: Good
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voltesV wrote:
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In fact I just tested chaos roll with DRK/COR. You get half of the roll, including the job bonus.

I hope you're not doing this on merit party..or else you phail..Please don't let Gigasnail or the dark community see this post of yours.
I'm pretty sure he used DRK/COR solo because it's easy to see/calculate the result.
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#15 Nov 12 2009 at 11:20 PM Rating: Default
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voltesV wrote:
Quote:
In fact I just tested chaos roll with DRK/COR. You get half of the roll, including the job bonus.

I hope you're not doing this on merit party..or else you phail..Please don't let Gigasnail or the dark community see this post of yours.


LOL, oh noes!! I'm not going to confirm or deny this as I'm curious of what Gigasnail and his dark minions might do to me.

You are now officially my favorite poster. rate up!
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You can't transform numbers into other numbers like that. It'd just go on forever. That's like witchcraft.


There's one guy I know who
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#16 Nov 12 2009 at 11:40 PM Rating: Good
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doctorugh wrote:
voltesV wrote:
Quote:
In fact I just tested chaos roll with DRK/COR. You get half of the roll, including the job bonus.

I hope you're not doing this on merit party..or else you phail..Please don't let Gigasnail or the dark community see this post of yours.


LOL, oh noes!! I'm not going to confirm or deny this as I'm curious of what Gigasnail and his dark minions might do to me.
Tentacle rape
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#17 Nov 13 2009 at 3:54 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
In merit parties, sam's usually sub nin, war, or rng(rare) or drg.


fixed
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#18Coyoteblackzero, Posted: Nov 13 2009 at 4:47 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Are you saying that your playing ffxi, even though your not having fun? Cause thats the odor your givin off.
#19 Nov 13 2009 at 6:00 AM Rating: Good
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more colour :/

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PT lets ya

play with yourselves

have a good time



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#20 Nov 13 2009 at 6:40 AM Rating: Good
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why do people post stuff like "if your party allows it and you have a good time, do it"? i'll say stuff like that occasionally if it seems people are misunderstanding "this is the best way to do damage" as "i'm your father and i'm telling you to play this way," but only then.

i mean, first of all, who do you think you are? it's like you're giving people permission to do something. it's really weird.

second, do people have no comprehension of the context of messageboards? "hey, would SAM/COR work?" "maybe, maybe not, BUT DO IT IF IT'S FUN" "THANKS A LOT, THAT'S A BIG HELP!" what's the point of "hey, here's *no info at all*, have fun"? i don't get it.

this post brought to you by my insomnia. no, /COR SAM no good. /DRG's too good. make someone less sub dependent sub /COR if you're really boning up for the job. this is especially true at birds where you probably get a lot out of /WAR with polearm (and if you don't, you ride even higher with /DRG).

Edited, Nov 13th 2009 7:43am by milich
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#21 Nov 13 2009 at 9:43 AM Rating: Decent
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milich wrote:
why do people post stuff like "if your party allows it and you have a good time, do it"? i'll say stuff like that occasionally if it seems people are misunderstanding "this is the best way to do damage" as "i'm your father and i'm telling you to play this way," but only then.

i mean, first of all, who do you think you are? it's like you're giving people permission to do something. it's really weird.

second, do people have no comprehension of the context of messageboards? "hey, would SAM/COR work?" "maybe, maybe not, BUT DO IT IF IT'S FUN" "THANKS A LOT, THAT'S A BIG HELP!" what's the point of "hey, here's *no info at all*, have fun"? i don't get it.

this post brought to you by my insomnia. no, /COR SAM no good. /DRG's too good. make someone less sub dependent sub /COR if you're really boning up for the job. this is especially true at birds where you probably get a lot out of /WAR with polearm (and if you don't, you ride even higher with /DRG).

looooool

you know he's just fishing for attention right? The poor thing.
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#22 Nov 13 2009 at 10:10 AM Rating: Decent
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doctorugh wrote:
VZX wrote:
If they /COR, what are the job for the rest of PT member?


Probably would work best when the other melee are 2-handers and you can drop thier hits-to-WS by 1 (DRK, WAR, DRG) and increase overall damage.

So you roll SAM roll and lose ~200 attack on TP and Penta for not being able to use berserk, but let the other jobs do 1 less attack to reach 100TP with the cost of having some of your attack round halted for couple second due to rolling animation.

BRD sing double march,
COR use atk and exp up roll,
and RDM do the usual stuff.

Am I getting the right things here?


Edited, Nov 13th 2009 8:13am by VZX
#23 Nov 13 2009 at 1:07 PM Rating: Decent
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VZX wrote:
doctorugh wrote:
VZX wrote:
If they /COR, what are the job for the rest of PT member?


Probably would work best when the other melee are 2-handers and you can drop thier hits-to-WS by 1 (DRK, WAR, DRG) and increase overall damage.

So you roll SAM roll and lose ~200 attack on TP and Penta for not being able to use berserk, but let the other jobs do 1 less attack to reach 100TP with the cost of having some of your attack round halted for couple second due to rolling animation.

BRD sing double march,
COR use atk and exp up roll,
and RDM do the usual stuff.

Am I getting the right things here?


Edited, Nov 13th 2009 8:13am by VZX


Yeah, I didn't even think about penta really. I know GKT WS doesn't get as big a boost from beserk, so I figured losing it wouldn't be as detrimental to WS damage. Let me address a couple points:

200 att for berzerk is somewhat off, it should be closer to 125 and its only up 60% of the time. It's not actually 25% of your att, as it doesn't stack with food. If we are talking about birds, I think the PDIF att caps at 722 and thats without dia (I think dia3 puts it close to 660). I know when I'm on war and have a cor rolling chaos roll, I'm over the cap with berserk, making it somewhat less effective than the full 25%.

The animation for roll should deduct about 1-2 sec every 5 minutes and you could do that between mobs, so it really should be fairly insignificant.

Again, I dont even have SAM; but when a SAM shows up /NIN, it really baffles me. Perhaps a SAM who wasn't quite up to snuff on gear(lower on total parse compared to others) might /COR and help his party more than /WAR would. With penta, I'm thinking you are probably right that /WAR would be overall better than 1 hit less for 3-4 ppl if you are the top (or close) DD.



Edited, Nov 13th 2009 1:11pm by doctorugh
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#24 Nov 13 2009 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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in a merit party, if you're throwing up buffs "between mobs", something is pretty wrong. and yeah, losing /DRG is losing haste, which is compounded by the animation delay. it's really just not a good idea. better to have BRD or RDM or something be the one subbing /COR.
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#25 Nov 13 2009 at 2:11 PM Rating: Default
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milich wrote:
in a merit party, if you're throwing up buffs "between mobs", something is pretty wrong. and yeah, losing /DRG is losing haste, which is compounded by the animation delay. it's really just not a good idea. better to have BRD or RDM or something be the one subbing /COR.


Seriously of all the stuff to nitpick about /COR, the animation delay for 1-2sec (I have 75 COR, so I've maybe rolled a couple times), is a pretty poor one.

/DRG has +10 att, jump, h.jump, +10 acc and 5% haste(minus what you would normal use there)
It also can shed hate if you are worried that your mage fell alseep.
These are valid points.

The roll delay......a poor arguement.

Best case for /cor: You only found one bard, which means you have 4 DD who are two-handers. You are an avg contributor to the total group. (25%)

Adding /COR samurai roll drops everyone from 6 hit WS to 5 hit WS. All two-handers get 50% of thier damage from WS in this grp (I know most SAM, WAR and DRG do, idk DRK). This should be an increase of about 8.33% (?) for the total grp. Losing all /DRG benefits might drop 20% of your total damage or 5% of the total group (no i didnt crunch the numbers exactly - not enough time at work, but its probably an overexaggeration if anything). O, and also you lose another 0.1% for the roll animation <<. So overall thats a win for /COR.

Poor case for /COR: You have a BRD and COR, you gear kicks *** and the rest of your party sucks and the the other DD have low WS to TP damage. You are in at 45% of the total damage. Again /COR bumps the grp up 8.33%, but droping 25% of 45% is now 11.25% of the total. Everyone in the party puts you on a Blist, beacause you /cor and lost nearly 3% of the exp they could have had. Shame on you for thinking outside the box.

Lastly, sometime you kill all the birds and sometimes the BRD slacks on pulling, so every once in a great while you have a sec or two btw mobs.

Bard #2/cor or rdm/cor sounds fine to me too as long as the dia, buffs, and heals are on point.
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#26 Nov 13 2009 at 3:14 PM Rating: Good
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Ugh, M.D. wrote:
but when a SAM shows up /NIN, it really baffles me.
don't get us wrong, we hate these people too
Ugh, M.D. wrote:
/DRG has +10 att, jump, h.jump, +10 acc and 5% haste(minus what you would normal use there)
plus 9STR, plus they get whatever additional slots they would have to waste on more sTP to get a 5-hit w/ gimp rolls (likely 3-4% haste, 2%DA/12acc, some WS gear).
Ugh, M.D. wrote:
Losing all /DRG benefits might drop 20% of your total damage
at a decent haste rate wyvern earring is ~15% by itself (in a max haste situation it's ~+25% dmg), jumps are +~5%, acc(swaping bushi) +~2%dmg, 7STR(swaping bushi) +~2.5% dmg, atk is +~1%(swaping bushi); so conservatively you should be +~27% dmg higher /DRG before loosing those other slots to get a 5-hit
Ugh, M.D. wrote:
Adding /COR samurai roll drops everyone from 6 hit WS to 5 hit WS.
Once again, they all have to give up more slots in addition to getting gimp roll to drop a hit, so the overall gain from 5hit is much less than you think.
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
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