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#1 Oct 29 2009 at 3:40 AM Rating: Good
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I really like waltz-5tp cost thing and probably i put haste too on for a perfect /dnc piece since i do that ALOT. Conserve tp looks good but gonna wait feedback first.

What you guys getting?
#2Coyoteblackzero, Posted: Oct 29 2009 at 4:15 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) MMMm i bust a nut the size of a tuna fish when i saw these
#3 Oct 29 2009 at 4:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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For SAMs, movement speed. Unless you don't have/won't for some reason be getting BH or Usu.
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#4 Oct 29 2009 at 6:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Maybe I've been out of the loop for so long that I'm unaware of the other options....but it seems like the initial buzz on the "Weaponskill Damage +5%" isn't very high. I would have thought that would be one of the big weaponskill swap augment choices. In general, +5 STR is your standard for that slot, which is pretty much the same standard for the headpiece. (Yeah, I know Hachiryu has +10, but seriously, I've seen lots more relics than I have copies of those pants floating around...I wouldn't exactly call them standard endgame gear).

People seemed to agree on the moogle expansion helm that Weaponskill damage+2% and +4 STR was the SAM GK WS swap augments of choice (even moreso than the +6 STR possible).

Since I never do the math of this stuff, it makes me wonder:

Would +5 STR in the leg slot be better than +2 STR and +5% WS damage?

People seemed to agree that +4 STR and +2% WS damage was better than +5 STR for the head WS swap during the last mini exp. (and better than +6 STR for that matter).
#5 Oct 29 2009 at 6:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Read it again. It's not +5% WS damage. It's +5% skillchain damage. And since skillchains are (essentially) a dead art that get partial resists more often than not on things that matter (or even VT colibri -.-), you're not likely to see many of this augment floating around.
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#6 Oct 29 2009 at 6:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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oh, definitely misread that. That makes a BIG difference then (unless you are skillchaining on EVERY WS you do, which like you said....isn't going to happen).
#7TheHolyDragoonSeraphus, Posted: Oct 29 2009 at 8:10 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Conserve TP+5???
#8 Oct 29 2009 at 8:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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ehhh, depending on how "conserve tp" works I'm probably just going to make this a macro/specialty piece with +movement and -waltz cost
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#9 Oct 29 2009 at 8:48 AM Rating: Good
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Conserve TP will prolly just be a chance to reduce TP spent on dnc and /dnc, but would indeed be neat if it worked on sam. Haidate + 5 str pants is pretty much all a sam needs so unless you're getting place holder pants or MS pants, prolly just go for another job. Like homam with double the accuracy.
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#10 Oct 29 2009 at 9:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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For those who can't view the site at work, I posted a screenshot of the augments right here. They're kinda useless for a SAM with BH/Usukane as others have said but then we SAM aren't really hurting for good Leg slot options at 75.

edit: I'm a bit disappointed to see no +STR options available but then with AF, Fourth Schoss, Shura, and Hachiryu (and 10 mil...) I guess they're not really needed.

On the whole, the available augments are rather "meh" for SAM offering a lot of sidegrades and little else. I may grab the +8% Movement Speed and some other random augment (Siphon +20 for SAM/SMN, {yes please}!) since there's nothing else on the market for SAM that offers increased movement speed but otherwise... *yawn*

As underwhelmed as I am with the prospect of these pants, it's nice to see less popular jobs (COR, PUP, BST, SMN, etc.) getting rather unique boosts with these items.

Edited, Oct 29th 2009 11:45am by Beltenebros
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#11Coyoteblackzero, Posted: Oct 29 2009 at 10:21 AM, Rating: Unrated, (Expand Post) hmm, kinda funny how i get rated down everytime a special person pops on the scene. ^^ I have fans lol
#12 Oct 29 2009 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
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Thinking to switch on rdm pants, +movement speed and who knows -.-
#13 Oct 29 2009 at 3:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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CB0 wrote:
hmm, kinda funny how i get rated down everytime a special person pops on the scene. ^^ I have fans lol
The sub-ds on this page actually weren't me this time, it's only really worth the effort when you say batsh*t crazy crap/fail basic math. The rest of the time I don't bother to check which near (maybe soon?) nonrated troll you are.

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Like homam with double the accuracy.
but no fast cast/HP :/

Edited, Oct 29th 2009 5:40pm by shintasama
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#14Coyoteblackzero, Posted: Oct 30 2009 at 4:29 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) LOL
#15 Nov 23 2009 at 1:40 PM Rating: Good
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Personally I picked the movement speed (yay) and the physical damage reduction so I can start building an "oh shi-" set.
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#16 Nov 23 2009 at 2:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Requim wrote:
Conserve TP will prolly just be a chance to reduce TP spent on dnc and /dnc, but would indeed be neat if it worked on sam. Haidate + 5 str pants is pretty much all a sam needs so unless you're getting place holder pants or MS pants, prolly just go for another job. Like homam with double the accuracy.
Since this was already bumped, initial testing on lolgrainofsaltwiki was that conserve tp is ~5% chance of your WS only using 80%tp instead of 100% (~1.25% increase in dmg output, oddly enough a BG tester didn't see a difference in waltz cost), so from a dmg perspective your best bet is for legs is:

hachiryu > ASA w/ conserve tp/DA > Shura(+1)/AF+1 etc.
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#17 Nov 23 2009 at 2:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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forget WS pants, forget TP pants, forget lolconserveTP (also, seraphus is a moron).

so you're left with movement speed and waltz stuff. if i were upgrading for SAM only, it would be an easy choice of -waltz TP and +movement speed, or +movement speed and -phys damage if i never used /DNC.
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#18 Nov 23 2009 at 3:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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milich wrote:
forget WS pants, forget TP pants, forget lolconserveTP (also, seraphus is a moron).

so you're left with movement speed and waltz stuff. if i were upgrading for SAM only, it would be an easy choice of -waltz TP and +movement speed, or +movement speed and -phys damage if i never used /DNC.
seraphus being a moron aside: why? 1 less hit to WS 5% of the time isn't a massive bonus, but neither is 3-4STR after you factor in 2% DA. I like my sTP (AF+1) and don't have +movement from anything else (on any 75 job), and do most of my running around on SAM, so I'd probably go waltz/movement too, but cTP and DA isn't a horrible choice if you want to eek a tiny bit more dmg out.

Edited, Nov 23rd 2009 4:20pm by shintasama
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#19 Nov 23 2009 at 5:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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shintasama wrote:
milich wrote:
forget WS pants, forget TP pants, forget lolconserveTP (also, seraphus is a moron).

so you're left with movement speed and waltz stuff. if i were upgrading for SAM only, it would be an easy choice of -waltz TP and +movement speed, or +movement speed and -phys damage if i never used /DNC.
seraphus being a moron aside: why? 1 less hit to WS 5% of the time isn't a massive bonus, but neither is 3-4STR after you factor in 2% DA. I like my sTP (AF+1) and don't have +movement from anything else (on any 75 job), and do most of my running around on SAM, so I'd probably go waltz/movement too, but cTP and DA isn't a horrible choice if you want to eek a tiny bit more dmg out.

Edited, Nov 23rd 2009 4:20pm by shintasama


2% DA would be about 1% WS damage, and 1 less hit to 100%TP 5% of the time is .25*.05 = 1.25% higher WS frequency. 5STR is 3 or 4 base damage, so the difference is below 1%. or, unique movement speed and/or -waltz cost... i can't see how the former could be advised.
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#20 Nov 23 2009 at 10:16 PM Rating: Good
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There is 2 STR on it too, so given 2%DA is only slightly worse than 3STR and you end up ~1% better overall, it's like a KO vs Hachi better dmg wise. It really just comes down to what you use your SAM for I think. If you just park your SAM outside w/e event, use it to zerg w/e, and then change back to something else (like I do with DRK) I can see it being appealing.

Edited, Nov 24th 2009 11:28am by shintasama
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#21 Nov 24 2009 at 1:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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shintasama wrote:
There is 2 STR on it too, so given 2%DA is only slightly better than 3STR and you end up ~1% better overall, it's like a KO vs Hachi better dmg wise. It really just comes down to what you use your SAM for I think. If you just park your SAM outside w/e event, use it to zerg w/e, and then change back to something else (like I do with DRK) I can see it being appealing.


if that's all you use your SAM for, you probably should augment the pants for something else;;;.
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#22 Nov 24 2009 at 6:24 AM Rating: Good
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So would... [STR+2 cTP+5 DA+2] be an upgrade for WS in over Shura+1's [6STR]?

I'm thinking it actually would be an upgrade. Also, while you get to start 1 hit less 5% of the time, that 5% of the time you'll also be hitting your next ws 1.25% harder due to the extra 3-4% tp you'll have.
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#23 Nov 24 2009 at 10:29 AM Rating: Good
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Sandmasterr wrote:
So would... [STR+2 cTP+5 DA+2] be an upgrade for WS in over Shura+1's [6STR]?

I'm thinking it actually would be an upgrade. Also, while you get to start 1 hit less 5% of the time, that 5% of the time you'll also be hitting your next ws 1.25% harder due to the extra 3-4% tp you'll have.
The answer is "yes, but not by very much" which is why the movement/waltz stuff is also appealing.
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#24 Nov 24 2009 at 12:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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if you would blow the chance for some unique DNC-related augments or the 1 +movement speed item in the game for SAM on a 1% upgrade, you have no excuse in the first place not to buy hachiryu or get it with an ls. i just can't see the room for such a tiny and strange upgrade from shura/myochin(+1)/etc.
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#25 Nov 24 2009 at 1:28 PM Rating: Default
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True, but the movement means nothing to me, if I want to get around, i'll run on MNK.

The sole purpose I use SAM for is to deal extensive amounts of DMG. In any case, I don't feel like spending £10 and spending a few hours of boredom on increasing my SAM's DMG by ~1% so the point is moot right now.

If I was to advise other SAM's, I'd probably recommend the -5TP Waltz/8% speed increase piece, although my own personal problem with that, is that when I'm /DNC on SAM, I find I'm never short of TP, its the Waltz recast time that limits me. I'd have much preferred something like 'Waltz recast -1' or something along those lines.

On MNK, I have the opposite problem, and often find I'm low on TP especially after a WS, so the Waltz cost -5 would probably be more suited for my MNK.
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#26 Nov 25 2009 at 2:09 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not going to spend the 10 bucks on this one.

I have a question, since we're talking about legs slot here.

Would you think it's better to WS in 14STR 14DEX or 11STR 6ACC 2%DA? I mean, we probably can ignore the DEX/ACC, so it really comes down to 3STR vs 2%DA. Right now I'm using the STR setup.
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#27 Nov 25 2009 at 3:04 PM Rating: Decent
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NatePrawdzik wrote:
Would you think it's better to WS in 14STR 14DEX or 11STR 6ACC 2%DA? I mean, we probably can ignore the DEX/ACC, so it really comes down to 3STR vs 2%DA. Right now I'm using the STR setup.
Probably DA, though DA procs on SAM WSs aren't nearly as potent as the first hit will be.
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#28 Nov 25 2009 at 4:13 PM Rating: Good
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generally, for YGK, 1% DA ~= 2-3STR.

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#29 Nov 25 2009 at 9:41 PM Rating: Good
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Thanks guys. Green arrowed!
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#30 Nov 27 2009 at 7:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sandmasterr wrote:
True, but the movement means nothing to me, if I want to get around, i'll run on MNK.


Except for the times you're on SAM...
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#31 Nov 27 2009 at 9:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sandmasterr wrote:
generally, for YGK, 1% DA ~= 2-3STR.
uhhh, no

w/hagun+gorget+capped melee acc/pDIF/no other DA: 1%DA = ~.5% dmg
w/previously capped fSTR: 3STR ~= 2WSC* > 1% avg dmg (at any obtainable level of STR, avg ~1.1% in the "normal" SAM WS STR range: 130-150 total WS STR)

in general: 3STR >= 2% DA

If you're fighting something high level and fSTR, DA pDIF, and DA acc come into play, then DA looses by significantly more.

*2 or greater ~75% of the time

Edited, Nov 27th 2009 10:28am by shintasama
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#32 Nov 27 2009 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
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If you're fighting something high level and fSTR, DA pDIF, and DA acc come into play, then DA looses by significantly more.


presumably, that doesn't matter, because the same acc penalty will afect the initial hit too, and you don't need the initial hit to land to perform a DA.

When I said 2-3, the 3 was in small print meaning 1%DA is about as valuable as 2STR. I shouldn't have even included the 3, was just a silly moment, as that would make askar better than osode for ws (when comparing the STR & DA stats on the 2 pieces only), and you and i (at some point) have provided math showing Osodes superiority over Askar.


Speaking about SAM in general, with recent research into Zanshin, and the fact the att is doubled for Gekko means these are evolving times for Samurai's.






I have a quick Q anyway - the Champion's Galea from AMK with the STR+4 WSACC+15 AGL+4 WS DMG+2% setup, does anyone know if....

When Overwhelm is active, does it add on like an additional stage, so we get 21% increase, or does it increase the dmg as an extra part of the equation, so the end of SAM's WS dmg would be ' *1.19 *1.02 '?

As its always active, whereas overwhelm isn't i'm obviously hoping its the latter.
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#33 Nov 29 2009 at 12:04 AM Rating: Good
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Sandmasterr wrote:
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If you're fighting something high level and fSTR, DA pDIF, and DA acc come into play, then DA looses by significantly more.


presumably, that doesn't matter, because the same acc penalty will afect the initial hit too, and you don't need the initial hit to land to perform a DA.
I'm assuming he means the DA hit isn't receiving the same accuracy bonus that the first hit is getting, so therefore your DA hitrate could be only 80% while your first hit hitrate would be capped at 95%.

Unless that's what you were getting at, and phrased it in a really strange way.
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#34 Dec 01 2009 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
Sandmasterr wrote:
Quote:
If you're fighting something high level and fSTR, DA pDIF, and DA acc come into play, then DA looses by significantly more.


presumably, that doesn't matter, because the same acc penalty will afect the initial hit too, and you don't need the initial hit to land to perform a DA.
I'm assuming he means the DA hit isn't receiving the same accuracy bonus that the first hit is getting, so therefore your DA hitrate could be only 80% while your first hit hitrate would be capped at 95%.

Unless that's what you were getting at, and phrased it in a really strange way.
I don't get how sandmaster read it any other way?
Sand wrote:
When I said 2-3, the 3 was in small print meaning 1%DA is about as valuable as 2STR. I shouldn't have even included the 3, was just a silly moment,
W/ Hagun+Gorget 2 STR = ~1WSC* (avg ~1.27) > 1% DA too(~.571% for 1WSC ~.708%avg vs ~.506%, before you take into account possibly lower DA acc/pDIF/etc), so I don't know what you're getting at, the answer to the poster's question remains: 3STR >= 2% DA .

Sand wrote:
I have a quick Q anyway - the Champion's Galea from AMK with the STR+4 WSACC+15 AGL+4 WS DMG+2% setup, does anyone know if....

When Overwhelm is active, does it add on like an additional stage, so we get 21% increase, or does it increase the dmg as an extra part of the equation, so the end of SAM's WS dmg would be ' *1.19 *1.02 '?

As its always active, whereas overwhelm isn't i'm obviously hoping its the latter.
I would assume it's seperate, in the end it doesn't matter than much though, it's still the best GK WS helm regardless

*1 or greater ~90% of the time

Edited, Dec 1st 2009 11:39am by shintasama
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#35 Dec 04 2009 at 3:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Something that I haven't seen mentioned yet.

What if I havent joined a sky ls and wan't something too tide me over.

Just want some oppinions on Temp. Tp Pants
haste 3% and Movement Speed+8% or accuracy 7.

I plan too get byakko eventually. So I will probably change these pants for smn or whm. Just want a temp haste solution.



#36 Dec 04 2009 at 3:23 AM Rating: Good
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Just want some oppinions on Temp. Tp Pants
haste 3% and Movement Speed+8% or accuracy 7.


Definitely haste+3% ACC+7. They are the best leg armor you can equip outside of byakko's by a mile. They will be a great asset to your overall performance in events and in meripo's and a super piece to hold you over until Byakko's (which is an additional haste+2 ACC+4 - so don't forget about them just because you get those pants).

When you do eventually get byakko's, it'll mean you can chuck those ASA legs, and re-do the boss for a new pair of legs (you can then go for the near ultimate WS legs OR the /DNC speed choice)
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