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#1 Oct 15 2009 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
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So, here's the thing. I know I'm taking up DRG eventually; it's 36 at the moment. I need /SAM for it, but I'm worried that in the process of leveling /SAM I'll like the job so much I just won't stop, and I'll take it to 75.

That, itself, isn't really a problem. The issue is that my WAR is 18 (for my 36 DRG), so I'm wondering, if I pick up a Wyvern Earring + Mantle at/before 30, is it possible to level SAM all the way to 75 using only /DRG? Obviously I would use /DNC in Campaign and soloing, etc., but for party play is mainly what I want to know. I'm sure I'll need /WAR and /THF if I take it to 75, and I suppose /RNG wouldn't kill me to have just in case (especially if the Ranged Attack update turns out to be nice), but I'm thinking strictly for XP parties here.

I know /DRG is good for SAM at 75 with the proper gear setup, but I'm not sure if not having /WAR is going to gimp me while leveling. I checked the sticky guide, but it didn't even mention /DRG (and seems to think that 2 STR still equals 1 Attack for 2-handers).

Edit: If it helps, I'm planning on the following TP set @ 75 if I do take SAM all the way:

Hagun/Rose Strap/Tiphia Sting
Walahra Turban/Chivalrous Chain/Brutal Earring/Wyvern Earring
Haubergeon/Dusk Gloves/Ecphoria Ring/Rajas Ring
Amemet Mantle +1/Swift Belt/Byakko's Haidate/Fuma Sune-Ate

Bold = Don't have it yet

Edit x2: Will probably use Hachiman hands to maintain a 6-hit until I get full sTP merits and can switch to the Dusk.

Edited, Oct 15th 2009 11:59am by Aliekber
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#2 Oct 15 2009 at 12:31 PM Rating: Default
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Sam has both offensive and defensive capabilities and can solo pretty well. Nowdays with FoV and campaign among other things you can sub anything you want and get to 75 on sam.

That being said I think most people would prolly want to see a sam at 75 capable of subbing certain jobs during endgame events and the like.
#3 Oct 15 2009 at 12:43 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, /DRG will do fine all the way.

Very few situations in which you may need to go /war, and most of them involve HNMs without (or with not enough) BRDs. Depending on the gear you'll have available and the speed with which you'll merit, /THF's pretty meh. After you're well merited and geared, you'll probably only use /THF for very tactical fights, like low manning some HNMs on melee mode. It's convenient to have, but rare to use.

Regarding /RNG... idk about that update you speak of. /RNG is fun, but that's about the best of it. You could argue about its uses on kited HNM fights, or several palace / garden sea fights, but most shells would find a way to divide better the manpower to cover that sort of farming. What I mean is, right now /RNG is useless.

About your choice of gear, considering you want to work on DRG also, I'd sugest putting some effort on Ace's Helm or Askar - unless you're planning on going full Usukane. Also, there are several other choices for ammo spot currently, might wanna take a look on some of them. Other then that, even tho I don't know if it's the best way around, I'd say don't worry about 6hit until you have full merits on sTP.
#4 Oct 15 2009 at 1:14 PM Rating: Decent
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I was thinking specifically of the ACP final BC when I was talking about SAM/RNG. Also, I like seeing all skills blue (heaven help me if I ding 75 WAR), so there's that.

As far as 6-Hit is concerned, I'm no SAM expert (obviously), so if the following is wrong, please correct me, but it seems to me that going from a 7-hit to a 6-hit will result in a ~16% increase in WS frequency, and since WS is typically 1/2 (?) of a SAM's total damage output (assuming non-Soboro build), it will give approximately an ~8% increase in total damage output. If I'm only sacrificing Dusk Gloves for Hachiman hands, that's sacrificing a 6.6% damage increase (3% Haste on top of 17% Gear haste, 10% Hasso, 15% Haste Spell) for an 8% increase, resulting in a net gain in damage despite a decrease in Haste. If I have Byakko's and Marches, it will probably tip the scale to Dusk, but I'm nearly 100% certain I'll hit 5/5 sTP before I get Kitty Pants, so it's kind of a moot point for me.

That said, obviously it's better to maintain a 6-hit while keeping the Dusk (which will give the 16% increase in WS frequency as well as the 6.6% damage increase from Haste), which is the end-goal after full sTP merits have been achieved.

Edit: Regarding Askar Zucchetto, I'll go back for one most likely after I hit 75 SAM (or DRG), since I'll need to pick up a Windslicer from floor 100 anyway (I'm already 5/5 Goliard and 3/5 Denali, so I'm no stranger to Nyzul Isle).

Edited, Oct 15th 2009 1:16pm by Aliekber

Edited, Oct 15th 2009 1:17pm by Aliekber
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#5 Oct 15 2009 at 1:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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50-70 you'd be better off /WAR for the most part, particularly if you're partying 51->60 w/ polearm. However, if you're mostly soloing SAM/DNC w/ soboro during the 51-60 span then you can get away with not leveling /WAR.

Really though, if you're planning on having 75SAM there are situations where you're going to want /WAR, /DRG, /NIN, /THF, /DNC, and (to a rarer extent) /RNG. You might as well just get them all over with right after another so you can reuse conserved gear.
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#6 Oct 15 2009 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
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shintasama wrote:
Really though, if you're planning on having 75SAM there are situations where you're going to want /WAR, /DRG, /NIN, /THF, /DNC, and (to a rarer extent) /RNG. You might as well just get them all over with right after another so you can reuse conserved gear.


That's what I'm doing...except it's for DRG. Like I said in the OP, I'm worried I just won't stop leveling it once it hits 37. After I have a job at 75, I go back and level necessary endgame subs for it (I have /WHM/BLM/NIN/BLU/DRK/PLD/DNC/SCH for my RDM, will be doing /THF for BLU once it hits 75 (which might be tonight, 20k tnl), have DRG36 like 2k from leveling up), so if it's seriously going to kill me to not have /WAR while leveling up, I can just take it from 18-37 before doing /SAM for DRG (and possibly just not stopping and taking SAM to 75).
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#7 Oct 16 2009 at 2:20 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
After I have a job at 75, I go back and level necessary endgame subs for it (I have /WHM/BLM/NIN/BLU/DRK/PLD/DNC/SCH for my RDM, will be doing /THF for BLU once it hits 75 (which might be tonight, 20k tnl), have DRG36 like 2k from leveling up), so if it's seriously going to kill me to not have /WAR while leveling up, I can just take it from 18-37 before doing /SAM for DRG (and possibly just not stopping and taking SAM to 75).


/WAR is the best sj to exp with until 75/DRG. The DRG build is centered around speed, jumps, & 5% ACC, and strong WS builds. You won't get all of that until 75.

You get everything /WAR has to offer by 50. /WAR is the polearm SAM sub of choice for obvious reasons too, zerk + DA do nice things to penta etc. #I can understand sj's like /DRK/THF/what ever being lvl'd up @ 75, but i'd just get /WAR out of the way, its already on 18? so won't take very long to quickly ding 37 on and its one of the most useful sj's in the game otherwise. I'm pretty sure if you main DRG, /War is still the best exp sj until /SAM takes over.
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#8 Oct 16 2009 at 1:15 PM Rating: Default
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I tried /drk a few times for ****'s and grins and it's pretty meh imo.
#9 Oct 19 2009 at 5:35 AM Rating: Good
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hehehe I honestly don't recommend anyone to level all SAM subs while they're still on the "I know I will like the job" phase. I say that because before I level RDM I had that same line of thinking, and started leveling all the subs...... you can imagine my frustration when I abandoned it at 65, eh?

/DRK is fun to play. Not useful, but fun. Kinda gives that "über gimped M.Kris DRK feeling"..... I bet healers have a different opinion about that tho.

Edited, Oct 19th 2009 7:37am by sbrubles
#10 Oct 21 2009 at 1:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Honestly /WAR is the best bet you can go with for xp party (not thinking cookie-cutter or closed minded) but it offers the more bang for the buck since the game has continued to evolve.

/WAR -- will give you more options while leveling with boosted damage: Berserk, Warcry. Boosted Defense and back up tanking: Defender, Provoke. Combine the /WAR abilities with Sams abilities of Hasso and Seigan + 3rd eye. You will be able to assist the party in many more ways.

/DRG -- Pretty good sub early on for the acc trait. Its a pretty high end WS job combined with the soboro for tp build courtesy of a jump, hi-jump, with meditate. Sprees of pure ws's.

/THF -- really hasn't been hot since the days of traditional xp parties relying on high powered SATA Skill chains with Sams and Drks (60+, sitting on a 1 min SATA timer will waste tp...). And its really not that great pre-30 as it really offers nothing to the Sam potential. Its also situational for the spike dmg when it is necessary to hit certain mobs.

/RNG -- Similar to /DRG. Mass sidewinders, however I shy away from this sub due to the fact for Sidewinder to hit full potential you have to move away from the mob, fire, move back, etc..., when you can stand in the spot and just YGK.

/DNC -- No comment on. I'll openly admit my dancer is level 1. I wouldn't mind more input on exactly.

/NIN -- I've been against the abuse of this subjob for sam for a long time. I don't see a purpose of this if your not tanking as you have much more options to increase damage output, as ninja has no offensive boosts to give SAM. And without being able to really combine Seigan+3eye with utsusemi (due to recast double). Though I see its situational use for various events like nyzul and meripo parties.

My Personal opinion would be: /DRG for the early levels (the acc trait would be nice). Then /WAR for the rest of the way, after the acc gear opens up for use. At some point the acc trait isn't as nice, imo, when you have access to acc gear and a sub job that has boosted attack power.



Edited, Oct 21st 2009 3:28pm by juicecomplex
#11 Oct 21 2009 at 2:24 PM Rating: Good
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Level WAR to 37.

Seriously, just do it.

SAM/DRG is good at low levels but really doesn't start to come back until 70.
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#12 Oct 21 2009 at 2:26 PM Rating: Good
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/DNC -- No comment on. I'll openly admit my dancer is level 1. I wouldn't mind more input on exactly.
It's incredibly hot for solo/situational stuff, in parties it can be used as a main/co-healer post soboro.
Quote:
/NIN -- I've been against the abuse of this subjob for sam for a long time. I don't see a purpose of this if your not tanking as you have much more options to increase damage output, as ninja has no offensive boosts to give SAM. And without being able to really combine Seigan+3eye with utsusemi (due to recast double). Though I see its situational use for various events like nyzul and meripo parties.
You pretty much hit the nail, it's for when you need to (potentially) tank tougher mobs. Late night .jp parties tend to use it a lot for slacker PTs, so it's good to have @75. Generally I use TE to "blink" during my ichi casts, but if you're "good" canceling seigan you can lean on SETE for a bit if you need to (and it's up).
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/DRG for the early levels (the acc trait would be nice).
atk trait is the lv 10 DRG one (20 SAM), acc traits are 30DRG (60SAM) and 50DRG. It's mostly about the haste+jumps with /DRG anyways
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#13 Oct 21 2009 at 3:37 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
/DRG for the early levels (the acc trait would be nice).atk trait is the lv 10 DRG one (20 SAM), acc traits are 30DRG (60SAM) and 50DRG. It's mostly about the haste+jumps with /DRG anyways


this.

Sorry, /RNG gives the early acc trait to physical attack. I Should have checked before hand. Was trying to work from memory...
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#14 Nov 04 2009 at 7:37 AM Rating: Decent
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I was wondering about sj at 75. I have read a lot about SAM lately and after some tips here decided /war would be the way to go until 75 for sure. After that however I am not sure anymore. I thought, after readin several posts/blogs etc, that /drg would be the way to go, especially with good gear and soboro, but my brother(who is the actual SAM, I just enjoy seeing him do well and have fun) directed me to a guide on wiki:

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Samurai:_Ultimate_Guide_by_Gregedor

and under the subjobs section he says that war is the best sj and that he has been directed, by many different people, toward an article that says /drg is better. According to him however that article(not sure which one he refers to) is wrong and that amongst other things it "did not copy the parse numbers correctly"(I gotta admit... I am confused on this one because I am no math genius myself, but how do you Ctrl+c wrong? Or am I, in my math "ineptness", missing something?) and later "ignores the 4% difference in crit between the subjobs".

Now personally I can't really see any evidence that what he is saying is true, partly because I can't test it myself, partly because it refutes what most people seem to say nowadays, but also because he really doesn't give any evidence himself other than his basically "I think this and everyone else is wrong" attitude. The fact that he doesn't specify which article he refers to as being innacurate makes it even harder to make any type of analysis of if he might actually be right in his critique of it. Generally I'd say I like his guide, its good imo, but this part just kind of bothers me.

So, my question is basically what do you guys think? From what you've seen/tested/read what subjob is the way to go? Of course different situations require different subjobs, but I am not talking about HNMs or such, but generally on merits and merit lvl mobs.

Thank you guys!

Edited, Nov 4th 2009 8:40am by Belcrono
#15 Nov 04 2009 at 11:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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As a rule of thumb, take everything on the wiki with a grain of salt, particularly if people can't give you good reasons "why" something is true. There are way too many people that just write complete ******** on there because it's what they do/feel w/o having anything to back it up.
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that article(not sure which one he refers to)

I can almost guarantee you he's referring to this LJ post.
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did not copy the parse numbers correctly, shortchanged the /WAR accuracy
um, I don't actually know what he's talking about here, the numbers are C&P'd correctly (87% vs 89%, which is about what we'd expect, /DRG gets +10acc, and /WAR gets bushi for +5 skill (~4.5 acc)). I'm guessing he misread something in his hurry to blow off the information.
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used the relic GKT which has latent effects making Jumps far more powerful than anyone using Hagun,
This is just ********* relic has higher base dmg and occasional 2.5x dmg, but this raises everything proportionately (and thus cancels out). The only thing that's not raised proportionally is DA dmg from WS, which is actually a disadvantage to /WAR for Hagun users, meaning the amano SJ WS dmg difference should be an overestimation of the difference a Hagun user feels.
Quote:
ignores the 4% difference in crit between the subjobs
The parsed crit rate is 3.5% different in the two parses, which isn't completely surprising. A lot of the DEX->crit rate studies found large variances in parsed crit rate too. The funny thing is, that this actually favors /WAR for his analysis too, since the higher crit rate was in the /WAR parse.



Overall /DRG is better for meriting because:
1) Between gear, WHM haste and BRDs getting to a decent haste rate is pretty easy, at which point an additional 5% haste adds a lot of damage*.
2) SAM GK WS get atk buffs that makes berserk fairly worthless for what accounts for the majority of our damage.
3) SAM GK WS have high fTP values, which drastically decrease the dmg increase of DA (particularly with Hagun+WS gorget).
3) Jumps increase WS freq as well as adding dmg, which (once again) increases the substantial part of our damage rather than the minor part.*
5) Having less hate (HJ) and more defense (no berserk), lets you lean on hasso more without draining your mages.
6) /DRG has slightly higher acc (not that big of a deal compared to other stuff).
7) The "far too much +str" he claims /WAR adds is 1 STR (69 vs 70 base for a hume, +2-3 STR difference during melee if you include wyvern earring which should be macroed out during WS), it's contribution is soo small it's ridiculous he would even include it.
8)(if you have it) COR+DRK makes hitting pDIF cap pretty easy on squishy things like merit mobs.

*note: at low haste rates the contribution of DA and jumps are about equal 5% haste adds WSfreq advantage to /DRG, at high haste situations DA adds more hits than jums 5% haste adds a ridiculous number of additional hits giving the advantage to /DRG still. see: Interesting /DRG Soboro vs Hagun thread
also: you do have to pay attention more when playing /DRG, but I personally find normal merit parties kind of slow now anyways, so I love the added stuff to do.
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#16 Nov 04 2009 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
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imo having 5/5Overwhelm supports /DRG too because of the increased ws frequency, thats more times Overwhelm gets to be presant.
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#17 Nov 04 2009 at 1:17 PM Rating: Default
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Now see, this is exacly why I come here for my SAM questions, thanks a lot Shintasama! ^^

I had a feeling this was the case, which is why I posted here, but always good to get it confirmed by those who know better than I. :)
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