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The Soboro debate thread, formerly @#$% it. I'm leveling SAMFollow

#52 Oct 18 2009 at 6:02 PM Rating: Good
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milich wrote:
i'm sorry to phrase it like this, because you're very polite but: what is your problem? listen to me: a stat matters when it influences any decision. "but zanshin does more than a toreador when--" no, listen to me: a stat matters when it influences some decision. does a toreador's effect matter? well let's see. you can buy that toreador, or something else. looks like we're on to something here. now we have zanshin. it does something. we're not on to anything yet, let's look further. zanshin does something, and here's what it does [numbers, effect at different ACC%s]. this means that we should... should... should do what? wait a minute, this doesn't mean we should change how we act in any way whatsoever. now we're back at "zanshin doesn't matter". do you really not understand what i'm saying? if you write back "but it's more potent than a toreador ring" one more time, please don't expect a response, or at least a respectful response.

re: TP feeding, either you've partied with NINs, MNKs, soboro SAMs, or you haven't. we can "agree to disagree" if you want, but making up "well it *should* be this way b/c you [vaguely] feed a lot of TP," is not convincing. going further and telling people your imagined argument matters to whether or not they should use soboro is intellectually dishonest and irresponsible.

I dunno if you missed it or ignored it, but the whole original was soboro vs a non multi hit GK. Since zanshin cannot proc on a multi hit and 70% of soboro's hits are multi hit, it reduces the effect of zanshin, that's as straight out a gear comparison as I can give.

Bleah, wanted to get off the subject but whatever. You make it sound like I've never been in parties with soboro SAMs or never used it myself. The only thing I lack is any actual parses of it or good reliable side by side comparisons.

Edited, Oct 18th 2009 8:03pm by TarowynXI
#53 Oct 18 2009 at 6:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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TarowynXI wrote:
milich wrote:
i'm sorry to phrase it like this, because you're very polite but: what is your problem? listen to me: a stat matters when it influences any decision. "but zanshin does more than a toreador when--" no, listen to me: a stat matters when it influences some decision. does a toreador's effect matter? well let's see. you can buy that toreador, or something else. looks like we're on to something here. now we have zanshin. it does something. we're not on to anything yet, let's look further. zanshin does something, and here's what it does [numbers, effect at different ACC%s]. this means that we should... should... should do what? wait a minute, this doesn't mean we should change how we act in any way whatsoever. now we're back at "zanshin doesn't matter". do you really not understand what i'm saying? if you write back "but it's more potent than a toreador ring" one more time, please don't expect a response, or at least a respectful response.

re: TP feeding, either you've partied with NINs, MNKs, soboro SAMs, or you haven't. we can "agree to disagree" if you want, but making up "well it *should* be this way b/c you [vaguely] feed a lot of TP," is not convincing. going further and telling people your imagined argument matters to whether or not they should use soboro is intellectually dishonest and irresponsible.

I dunno if you missed it or ignored it, but the whole original was soboro vs a non multi hit GK. Since zanshin cannot proc on a multi hit and 70% of soboro's hits are multi hit, it reduces the effect of zanshin, that's as straight out a gear comparison as I can give.

Bleah, wanted to get off the subject but whatever. You make it sound like I've never been in parties with soboro SAMs or never used it myself. The only thing I lack is any actual parses of it or good reliable side by side comparisons.

Edited, Oct 18th 2009 8:03pm by TarowynXI


...the comparison b/w soboro and non-multihit would have to be awful close for zanshin to make a difference. it's sort of like everyone's favorite ffxi messageboard math topic, "DA's decreasing returns". if you were to compare a weapon to another weapon with DA+ on it, the decreasing returns would influence the actual numbers, and it should be referenced in the numbers... but chances are pretty good that it doesn't belong anywhere near the resulting discussion/analysis, since the effect is so small. as hopefully most people remember, the only reason said diminishing returns ever became an issue was because people started going crazy and thinking "stacking haste is good, i need to build A Double Attack Setup, that would be sick."

but maybe we're talking past each other? i agree with you that zanshin should be factored into a soboro vs non-multihit big string of numbers... but i don't think that it will ultimately make any difference (regarding which weapon wins). so, i said what i said. to reiterate again, i'm not diving head first into a huge (or particular) discussion, i'm just passing on the conventional (and still valid) truism: zanshin doesn't matter.

re: TP feeding, fine.
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#54 Oct 18 2009 at 7:07 PM Rating: Good
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milich wrote:
...the comparison b/w soboro and non-multihit would have to be awful close for zanshin to make a difference. it's sort of like everyone's favorite ffxi messageboard math topic, "DA's decreasing returns". if you were to compare a weapon to another weapon with DA+ on it, the decreasing returns would influence the actual numbers, and it should be referenced in the numbers... but chances are pretty good that it doesn't belong anywhere near the resulting discussion/analysis, since the effect is so small. as hopefully most people remember, the only reason said diminishing returns ever became an issue was because people started going crazy and thinking "stacking haste is good, i need to build A Double Attack Setup, that would be sick."

but maybe we're talking past each other? i agree with you that zanshin should be factored into a soboro vs non-multihit big string of numbers... but i don't think that it will ultimately make any difference (regarding which weapon wins). so, i said what i said. to reiterate again, i'm not diving head first into a huge (or particular) discussion, i'm just passing on the conventional (and still valid) truism: zanshin doesn't matter.

re: TP feeding, fine.

The addition of zanshin would probably be more applicable in the 75 merit soboro vs hagun argument since I believe those two come out pretty close to begin with. And yes I know you hate the comparison, but it does come out to a minimum of 1% acc which is the same as.... yeah. It kind of comes back to then, what do we consider to small a difference to compare. I guess it's kind of annoying to fit into the equations and what not but at the same time I swear people who play ffxi love to calculate anything and everything so it just seems odd to not bother including it.

Pizza has probably had a bit to do with making comparisons less interesting. Soboro w/ sushi vs meat w/ regular GK could actually be an interesting comparison, but just using pizza and getting the best of both worlds ends up most likely being best in both cases while not providing much room for zanshin to function.

Maybe it's just my own personal little crusade or something, lol. I dunno, I just think it's too easily written off sometimes but oh well.

Edited, Oct 18th 2009 9:08pm by TarowynXI
#55 Oct 18 2009 at 10:38 PM Rating: Good
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the whole original was soboro vs a non multi hit GK. Since zanshin cannot proc on a multi hit and 70% of soboro's hits are multi hit, it reduces the effect of zanshin, that's as straight out a gear comparison as I can give.

Basically using Soboro (instead of non-Hagun single-hit GK):
- Reduces the effect of Zanshin
+ Gains 70% chance of 2-3 hits/round

For me, it's quite clear that the gain is more beneficial than the loss. Not only that it allows SAM to WS more often for extra damage, the extra WS itself can then be used to SC with other PT members for even more extra damage. I just can't see any non-Hagun single-hit GK competing with Soboro. Though just eyeballing, when I switched from Soboro to Zanbato one time, Zanbato just felt slow in TP building and it didn't WS much harder than Soboro. Maybe just eyeball issue.
#56 Oct 19 2009 at 5:25 AM Rating: Good
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Just to annoy a bit:
Quote:
Basically using Soboro (instead of non-Hagun single-hit GK):
- Reduces the effect of Zanshin
+ Gains 70% chance of 2-3 hits/round

That particular -/+ comparation you made would be true for Harung also. ;)
I mean, I know what you meant, but just wanted to pick on that xD
#57 Oct 19 2009 at 2:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Basically using Soboro (instead of non-Hagun single-hit GK):
- Reduces the effect of Zanshin
+ Gains 70% chance of 2-3 hits/round


You will still Zanshin (or at least should do) a similar amount of times whether you use soboro or Hagun if your swinging them at the same speed with the same acc.
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#58 Oct 19 2009 at 3:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sandmasterr wrote:
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Basically using Soboro (instead of non-Hagun single-hit GK):
- Reduces the effect of Zanshin
+ Gains 70% chance of 2-3 hits/round


You will still Zanshin (or at least should do) a similar amount of times whether you use soboro or Hagun if your swinging them at the same speed with the same acc.


yeah, but if you think of zanshin like an ACC bonus, its effect is diminished. not that it matters of course(:.
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#59 Oct 20 2009 at 5:12 AM Rating: Good
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What I meant was simply in reply of Tarowyn's comment about multi-hit from Soboro prevents Zanshin to occur. If that is true, it's still such a small loss compared to the gain of multi-hit itself from Soboro.

I mentioned Hagun separately because Hagun has TP Bonus on WS which allow Hagun to hit harder WS. Other non-Hagun single-hit GK would not have that bonus, so while their individual WS would still hit harder than Soboro, it won't be near Soboro's total WS damage just because of how quickly Soboro builds TP.
#60 Oct 21 2009 at 1:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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I mentioned Hagun separately because Hagun has TP Bonus on WS which allow Hagun to hit harder WS. Other non-Hagun single-hit GK would not have that bonus, so while their individual WS would still hit harder than Soboro, it won't be near Soboro's total WS damage just because of how quickly Soboro builds TP.


Also note, that if you WS with Hagun and Zanshin procs, ftp = 1.0, and the martial bonus is irrelevant.
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#61 Oct 21 2009 at 8:23 AM Rating: Good
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Sandmasterr wrote:
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I mentioned Hagun separately because Hagun has TP Bonus on WS which allow Hagun to hit harder WS. Other non-Hagun single-hit GK would not have that bonus, so while their individual WS would still hit harder than Soboro, it won't be near Soboro's total WS damage just because of how quickly Soboro builds TP.
Also note, that if you WS with Hagun and Zanshin procs, ftp = 1.0, and the martial bonus is irrelevant.
Did anyone ever actually show you could zanshin WS?
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#62 Oct 21 2009 at 12:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Did anyone ever actually show you could zanshin WS?


Wiki says it, so its true! Come to think of it however, i've been /DNC for long time now being hooked in past, and I can't remember ever getting a 1tp return (ofc it must of happend because of my 7% DA).
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#63 Oct 21 2009 at 3:56 PM Rating: Good
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So is the Onimaru still 300% tp only? Ushikirrimaru utterly useless now? Or was there any testing on those 2 GKs since the 2handed update? If this has already been posted, sorry in advance, was not sure on it. Thanks.
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#64 Oct 21 2009 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
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juicecomplex wrote:
So is the Onimaru still 300% tp only? Ushikirrimaru utterly useless now? Or was there any testing on those 2 GKs since the 2handed update? If this has already been posted, sorry in advance, was not sure on it. Thanks.
Sekka pretty much killed the whole "300% tp WS GK" "thing"
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#65 Oct 21 2009 at 4:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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yeah, oni and ushi were 300%TP WS only before sekka, no testing needed. now that sekka exists, they're provisional weapons before getting hagun/soboro/(rindowhatever?)/a polearm.

edit: p.s. i'm almost positive zanshin doesn't affect WS. unfortunately, even /DNC and /DRG i WS in brutal, so i'm not 100% sure. if you WS without brutal enough times and don't get a 1% TP return, it all but proves no zanshin; 95% WS ACC guarantees misses, and the probability of missing both your WS and the zanshin hit is minuscule.

Edited, Oct 21st 2009 6:17pm by milich
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#66 Oct 21 2009 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
Just to throw my opinion into here. I hate when people go on about TP this TP that.

The TP feed is most likely going to be irrelevant, this is not a NIN solo tanking charybdis with a BRD and RDM. Any XP pt this will not matter. If you bring along a THF for Nyzul with his triple attack flailing everywhere you should not care about a SAM with a soboro. If you are willing to take a BLU who gives 50% TP a hysteric barrage to something, then why the **** do you care about SAMs TP feed? If your RNG has a k club, on and on and on.
Unless you are with alot of two handers who are subbing nin for subtle blow and some auspice mixed in there, get over it.
I find it hypocritical too that the gaming community at large will sub war and/or use brutal earring which equals more hits over X ammount of time or 'moar tp fehd' as well.

Soboro is a great katana, (lol look at that one right there) but I would not use it with out /drg and haste earring. Just own that and a hagun, and bring them along because you should know when you will need one or the other and what you are going to be subbing. This thread really will never end because this can go back and forth all day long with situation this situation that parse this parse that.

Another thing that annoys me is we can not rate down admins who post things others would rate down.
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#67 Oct 21 2009 at 5:36 PM Rating: Good
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BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
Just to throw my opinion into here. I hate when people go on about TP this TP that.

The TP feed is most likely going to be irrelevant, this is not a NIN solo tanking charybdis with a BRD and RDM. Any XP pt this will not matter. If you bring along a THF for Nyzul with his triple attack flailing everywhere you should not care about a SAM with a soboro. If you are willing to take a BLU who gives 50% TP a hysteric barrage to something, then why the **** do you care about SAMs TP feed? If your RNG has a k club, on and on and on.
Unless you are with alot of two handers who are subbing nin for subtle blow and some auspice mixed in there, get over it.
I find it hypocritical too that the gaming community at large will sub war and/or use brutal earring which equals more hits over X ammount of time or 'moar tp fehd' as well.

Soboro is a great katana, (lol look at that one right there) but I would not use it with out /drg and haste earring. Just own that and a hagun, and bring them along because you should know when you will need one or the other and what you are going to be subbing. This thread really will never end because this can go back and forth all day long with situation this situation that parse this parse that.

Another thing that annoys me is we can not rate down admins who post things others would rate down.

Thought we were off this topic, oh well. Let's see, in Nyzul we have DC mobs which we don't care about TP moves and bosses which we're probably invincible half the time. Not to mention it's probably better for thf to not melee on bosses in certain situations (mostly 4 melee 1 healer situations). And if you do use soboro on nyzul bosses I'd probably call you an idiot no questions asked.

HB in general is a pretty horrible spell with some places where it's useful (pet soloing for a few lvls, eldieme escort) but F Rip is a much better general use spell. As for KC rng, well, considering I've never partied with a KC rng and plenty of soboro sams, there's a significant difference in the number of each due to cost/rarity of KC vs soboro. I've also never even really heard of KC rng used outside of merits where TP feed is pretty much irrelevant anyways. But most of this is really more job specific discussions.

And DA, you get proportional dmg/tp, every % increase in DA gives you the same % increase in DMG and TP. Soboro, at lvl 50, gives you about an 18%ish dmg increase for a 90% increase in TP. SLIGHT difference there, lol.

Technically we did manage to kill the tp feeding subject before you brought it back so you can't blame anyone but yourself!
#68 Oct 22 2009 at 2:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Technically we did manage to kill the tp feeding subject before you brought it back so you can't blame anyone but yourself!


You could say its killed, but I still get the impression that you still find giving mobs tp in exp pty's from w/e weapon or job there using to be a problem. Also, idt he said anything about using Soboro on bosses. You dish out a ridiculous amount of gekko's on those things with TP, sekka, 2hour, meditate and tp wing. Anyone with half a brain would realize a soboro is a bad choice for them.

Again, TP feed is very important in places. EXP pty's is not one of them.
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#69 Oct 22 2009 at 6:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Again, TP feed is very important in places. EXP pty's is not one of them.
Ironically, the soboro NM is one of them XD
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#70 Oct 22 2009 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
There should be a big list posted in every forum in a sticky for any job with a multiple hit weapon on what apparently is deemed inappropriate to 'feed' TP and what is fine,,,
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#71 Oct 22 2009 at 3:49 PM Rating: Good
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Sandmasterr wrote:
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Technically we did manage to kill the tp feeding subject before you brought it back so you can't blame anyone but yourself!


You could say its killed, but I still get the impression that you still find giving mobs tp in exp pty's from w/e weapon or job there using to be a problem. Also, idt he said anything about using Soboro on bosses. You dish out a ridiculous amount of gekko's on those things with TP, sekka, 2hour, meditate and tp wing. Anyone with half a brain would realize a soboro is a bad choice for them.

Again, TP feed is very important in places. EXP pty's is not one of them.

I never said I agreed with everyone, we just agreed to stop talking about it because the conversation wasn't going anywhere fast, hehe.

And he equated using a soboro to thf meleeing on bosses so I just connected those two, maybe he didn't mean it that way though, dunno.

And eh, I've already said everything I can, maybe one day I'll go and parse it all but just letting this subject die for now.
#72 Oct 22 2009 at 4:29 PM Rating: Good
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Interesting comparison between hagun and soboro. Currently lvl'ing sam, not reached Soboro stage yet, but have both Soboro and Hagun ready. After reading this thread, just wonder, should I just go ahead sell Hagun and pocket the gils instead?

PS: how the two compare when fighting a HNM at endgame?

Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 6:32pm by icebabyisme
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#73 Oct 22 2009 at 5:04 PM Rating: Good
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icebabyisme wrote:
Interesting comparison between hagun and soboro. Currently lvl'ing sam, not reached Soboro stage yet, but have both Soboro and Hagun ready. After reading this thread, just wonder, should I just go ahead sell Hagun and pocket the gils instead?

PS: how the two compare when fighting a HNM at endgame?
Do not use Soboro for HNM. 2xfSTR works both ways. You will want a Hagun if you plan on doing things significantly harder than merit mobs.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 7:05pm by shintasama
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#74 Oct 22 2009 at 5:21 PM Rating: Good
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shintasama wrote:
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Do not use Soboro for HNM. 2xfSTR works both ways. You will want a Hagun if you plan on doing things significantly harder than merit mobs.


Thanks. Don't mean to lvl sam for merit party only, so need to keep Hagun.
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#75 Oct 22 2009 at 5:39 PM Rating: Decent
icebabyisme wrote:
Interesting comparison between hagun and soboro. Currently lvl'ing sam, not reached Soboro stage yet, but have both Soboro and Hagun ready. After reading this thread, just wonder, should I just go ahead sell Hagun and pocket the gils instead?

PS: how the two compare when fighting a HNM at endgame?


Keep both, do not use soboro on serious things like HNMs as mentioned a few posts up. If you want to be cool on mamools or something in merits, soboro /drg is a very fun experience, who does not like to jump around? Soboro should see alot more use leveling up then fade away a bit.

TarowynXI wrote:
And he equated using a soboro to thf meleeing on bosses so I just connected those two, maybe he didn't mean it that way though, dunno.


What I mean is with blau/sirocco and some haste my THF will start flailing his arms in repetative tripple attacks. Is it the same as soboro? No absolutely not, however keep in mind every single person in that pt is 'feeding' TP and should be factored in. If my arms are flailing at parts in nyzul then I am contributing a big spike when I see 2,3,4, sometimes 5 tripple attacks fly off, then a 5 hit WS with assassins charge for even more hits all piled on. It is a larger contribution since the daggers have lower delay and tripple attack and then the brutal earring on top of the WS, but still as I said there is not a comparrison to thf vs sam soboro.
I really just relegate TP feed to the back of the pack bullsh*t like when people complain the PLD is in all DD gear and not useless vit. I never turned to the DRK who would kraken zerg a nyzul boss with us and complain that he is feeding the mob TP. Never complained to the BLU for throwing disseverment on the boss for 50% TP, then frenetic rip for 30%. Yet the fact people can not uniformly say who gives a @#%^ about TP feed for most situations is beyond me.

Mobs have a charge time and will not go crazy till the lower percents anyway. Thinking every route in my head even things like dynamis sandoria, the mobs are not nuked because it feeds less TP, it's to instant sleep control charmga.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 7:39pm by BelenosSwiftWater
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#76 Oct 22 2009 at 7:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
What I mean is with blau/sirocco and some haste my THF will start flailing his arms in repetative tripple attacks. Is it the same as soboro? No absolutely not, however keep in mind every single person in that pt is 'feeding' TP and should be factored in. If my arms are flailing at parts in nyzul then I am contributing a big spike when I see 2,3,4, sometimes 5 tripple attacks fly off, then a 5 hit WS with assassins charge for even more hits all piled on. It is a larger contribution since the daggers have lower delay and tripple attack and then the brutal earring on top of the WS, but still as I said there is not a comparrison to thf vs sam soboro.
I really just relegate TP feed to the back of the pack bullsh*t like when people complain the PLD is in all DD gear and not useless vit. I never turned to the DRK who would kraken zerg a nyzul boss with us and complain that he is feeding the mob TP. Never complained to the BLU for throwing disseverment on the boss for 50% TP, then frenetic rip for 30%. Yet the fact people can not uniformly say who gives a @#%^ about TP feed for most situations is beyond me.

Mobs have a charge time and will not go crazy till the lower percents anyway. Thinking every route in my head even things like dynamis sandoria, the mobs are not nuked because it feeds less TP, it's to instant sleep control charmga.


Dead horse? Ah well, not much else going on elsewhere so I'll respond. Did a little math, assuming you manage to pull off triple attack on both hands (about a 1% chance of happening fully merited), you give around 40% tp. Soboro 3 hits as non /nin gives around 41% tp. Sounds pretty close, except for the fact that you hit 3 times with a 33 dmg weapon and 3 times with a 26 dmg vs 3 hits with a 40 dmg weapon. Not taking into account differences in atk/fstr but in general, the thf will produce a lot more dmg for the same amount of tp. That's the difference between TP feeding and just giving TP regularly. Even then, there are still cases where a THF is better off not meleeing on nyzul bosses but again, that belongs in a whole different thread. Also, I'm reading that WS's give a set amount of TP irregardless of the number of hits, something which I didn't even know. I should go see if I can confirm that though.

Dunno what this has to do with PLD DD at all, but whatever. Who the heck neds to kraken zergs nyzul bosses? lol. And that still falls under the very good dmg to tp ratio thing. As for blus, actually, a blu who just spams multi hits on bosses is pretty stupid. You can get away with it on some you're better off using stuff the strong single hits like VC. (And a blu should be giving max 45%/27% and down to 40%/24% TP off disserv and rip)

Nyzul in general can be a bad example just because you have the wonderful item known as Fanatic's drink, which means not only do you not need to worry about TP, you don't have to worry about anything at all other than killing the boss for that time span.

Try looking at it this way, using soboro essentially means you just added another member to your party since it adds about 90% to how much tp you're giving. Are you saying having 4 melees vs having 3 won't increase the amount of WS's at all? (Not counting merit parties because mobs will die before you can even blink generally) I dunno, I think you're just fooling yourself then.

Not sure exactly what you mean by the dynamis remark, but stones at least are generally nuked both because they're melee resistant and they have some pretty ugly TP moves. Well and it's faster, lol.
#77 Oct 22 2009 at 7:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Who the heck needs to kraken zergs nyzul bosses?
You don't "need" to KC zerg anything, but it's really fun! XD

sidenote: I dismissed you as a random zanshin/ikki fanboy, but you're starting to grow on me. Keep it up! SAM forum alla needs more people that think logically and consider both sides rather than "this is what I do, it must be right" :3

sidenote#2: way too much karma camping in this thread, I hadn't touched my buttons so I greened everyone ^___^

sidenote#3:
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I just wanna add in that i am now the proud owner of a Soboro Sukehiro and will ding into it in 2 levels. Nice run, 7 people. We popped 9 times, wiped on the 4th, 5th was no drop, but dropped every other time. 7 Soboros for 7 people in about 4 hours counting downtime and the BLM going afk for 25 minutes.
Totally missed this when I was reading earlier, grats man!

Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 9:38pm by shintasama
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#78 Oct 23 2009 at 2:31 AM Rating: Good
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Shinta wrote:
sidenote: I dismissed you as a random zanshin/ikki fanboy, but you're starting to grow on me. Keep it up! SAM forum alla needs more people that think logically and consider both sides rather than "this is what I do, it must be right" :3


I liked him from the start, and countered some of the sub's & def's as they seemed to be flying his way for no logical reason, other than his opposing opinion on certain things.

That said, I still think the whole tp / exp mobs thing is a little silly, but theres room in future threads i'm sure for more Ikki/zanny, and giving mob TP debates during occasions where this matters.

BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
Mobs have a charge time and will not go crazy till the lower percents anyway.


They actually just use there TP when they reach 100% TP when their HP is 25% and below.
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#79 Oct 23 2009 at 1:54 PM Rating: Default
TarowynXI wrote:
Not sure exactly what you mean by the dynamis remark


Orc NMs, and I would respond to all you said, with a wall of text to a wall of text, however I do not really want to. I do not think you really understood, but its about soboro not me saying TP feed does not matter because 'look at everyone else'.

Sandmasterr wrote:
They actually just use there TP when they reach 100% TP when their HP is 25% and below.


Me saying there is a charge time (you know when it readies the move,,) and the mob will not start using their TP like "crazy" until lower %s were not to be made the same detail since there was an "and" between them.

Anyway can this thread be wrapped with a SAM needs a Hagun and a polearm, but also having a soboro is just as good for certain things and the weapon of choice for /dnc? (Going by threads here I have looked up back when I was wondering which was better a long time ago. The verdict I saw atleast, was hagun and soboro were equal with give and take both ways.)

Edited, Oct 23rd 2009 3:55pm by BelenosSwiftWater
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#80 Oct 24 2009 at 5:36 PM Rating: Good
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Hey guys,

Just thought I would ask here since this seems to be the Soboro thread atm. My brother just got his SAM to 60 a few days ago. He doesn't have Soboro yet because two days ago we had only just completed the promies. So yesterday we decided to try and get as far as we could in CoP and we are now ready to fight Diabolos which we hopefully will do tomorrow. He will then be using SAM/DRG and will have invested in a wyvern earring( or w/e the 5% haste earring /DRG is called). Now my question is, what are the rules for using Soboro as far as equipment goes?

Right now we have "worked hard" to camp NMs and gotten the rare/ex o-kote and kayahn boots etc and right now the basic idea he has for partying atm is:

TP = stack: haste/acc/atk (Basically using: Chiv chain, potent belt, o-kote, haste boots, woodsman/ecphoria rings, atk earrings, amemet+1(in 1 lvl), walkyrie mask, hauby, royal knights breeches.

WS = stack: strength/acc (Basically using: Chiv chain, potent belt, pallas bracelets(lvl 60 ones anyway), sipaih turban, sun rings, atk earrings(soon the 1str/1dex earring), and mythril grip, hauby, royal knights breeches.

My first question is, with a Soboro, is this still(is it ever?) the right way of thinking and if not how should we think when gearing him?

Secondly, what items would you say are vital and is something you really suggest we get for him, in general at this lvl and maybe especially if a Soboro build requires something special?

Thank you!
#81 Oct 24 2009 at 7:16 PM Rating: Decent
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You don't need any ACC for YGK. Otherwise looks pretty good. As far as I understand with Soboro you don't really need anything special for gear as compared to other GKTs.

Edit: Lowercase S

Edited, Oct 24th 2009 10:26pm by JulianneRagnarok
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#82 Oct 24 2009 at 11:33 PM Rating: Decent
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If you like to SAM/DRG (and you should because it's a superb combo) then you should get a wyvern earring. End of story. Whether you use hagun or soboro makes NO DIFFERENCE. You should be gearing for haste no matter what.

And no, you don't need accuracy gear for Y/G/K. Full STR.
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#83 Oct 25 2009 at 4:48 AM Rating: Good
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The only advatage Soboro has over Hagun when subbing DRG is that Soboro's DA/TA can proc on jumps increasing your TP returns from jumps and your probability of making self SCs without Sekka.
#84 Oct 25 2009 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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Midgez wrote:
The only advatage Soboro has over Hagun when subbing DRG is that Soboro's DA/TA can proc on jumps increasing your TP returns from jumps and your probability of making self SCs without Sekka.
There's actually a slight difference, due to the haste. Basically, meditate favors Hagun because it's a swing free WS. The more haste you have, the more swings you'll have between each Med, and it'll lessen the boost med itself gives, therefore indirectly helping Soboro's numbers more than Hagun.

It doesn't really help either more by itself, it just lessens the impact of a part where Hagun clearly gets a bigger benefit than Soboro.
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#85 Oct 26 2009 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
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/WAR + Soboro is probably your best combo 50-74 (and polearm when needed if you have it leveled). Reason being, you can't stack much haste at 60, and for some reason, half the mages tend not to Haste rotation until merits, they just haste 1 or 2 ppl. You also don't get the 2nd jump until 70.

/WAR's DA and zerk are great for Soboro's DoT, and 1 in 10 ws's will be a high one due to the DA.

Exp at 60 + Hasso + Haste spell + swift (which i take it you don't have) + fuma's, the earring increases your performance by 7.7%.

Exp at 75 + Hasso + Haste spell + Swift/Turban/fuma's/haidate + 2xMarch song
the earring increases your performance 15.2%.

Completely up to you though, i'd just save the /DRG until it reaches its optimal stages.


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#86 Oct 26 2009 at 10:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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/WAR's DA and zerk are is great for Soboro's DoT, and 1 in 10 ws's will be a "high" one due to the DA.
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#87 Oct 28 2009 at 4:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, just like the OP I would like to say that my brother is also now the proud owner of Soboro! :)

We worked hard to get groups together, in the first one, our WHM d/c just before the first pop and although we tried 2 times we whiped. Second group we managed to put together, a LS friend and my brother got first two pops with lucky /random(we had 10 people doing it). We managed to beat it both times(albeit very **** and both times it dropped. After that we whiped one time after unlucky stunresists where the bomb had actually managed to just go near enough for all the mages to get hit by self-destruct as well. We then managed to again beat it two times, but with difficulty, but no drops. After that people started dropping off, can't say I was sad though considering we had died so many times(every time we won we used several RR) and it was almost 5am and I had school at 8. :P

Our setup was PLD, WHM, RDM, SAM, THF, BLM, BLM, BLM/BRD(he dualboxed), BLU. We had no problems until 50%, but that is when the **** started to hit the fan. Basically every time PLD died around 50% and from there it was all, kite/sleep/nuke the rest, with everyone dying at least one time, most of us mages more than once.

Anyway, just thought I would share. I am really happy for my bro, he has been looking forward to this a long time, and so have I!

Thank you everyone for your input on equipment/subjob advice, really appreciate it and I am sure I'll be back for more soon! ^^
#88 Oct 28 2009 at 10:14 AM Rating: Good
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Congrats ^_^
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#89 Nov 26 2009 at 4:09 PM Rating: Good
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Because I read it's possible I decided to try and solo the Unstable Cluster last night. It's doable and reasonable, if a little costly.

I did it on DRK/NIN, others have done it on BLM/NIN.

Meds used:
44 charges of reraise earrings (I brought 60 with me)
1 Icarus Wing

Strategy:
-The NM does not aggro in any way. Not to sight, resting or even magic.
-The ??? at the back of the cave is far enough away from the Nitro Clusters to fight the cluster right where it pops.
-Cast Bio 2, hit the mob once, stun, drain as fast as you can, then die.
-Reraise up, recast shadows, recast reraise.
-Rest mp back to full.
-As soon as bio 2 wears (exactly 2 minutes) recast bio 2, hit once, stun, drain and die.
-Save weapon bash for self destruct.
-Repeat until 1%.
-Use icarus wing, swing, WS and win.

I won in about 90 minutes, losing 13k exp from the deaths.

And...


NO DROP
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#90 Nov 27 2009 at 12:56 AM Rating: Good
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Talking about TP feed of Soborro and comparing it to NIN or MNK is fairly misleading, though it's clearly not intentional. NIN or MNK can easily be packing around 40 or more store TP. That's nearly half of the TP given to the monster, not happening. If you want a closer comparison, it should be to THF using low delay daggers (Blau/Sirocco). These guys are TP feeding machines. There are monsters where I can solo/tank them on NIN/dnc with relative ease, and yet you add a single THF or soborro SAM (yes, I said it), and I'm dead in short order.

Basically, the way I see it is: If you would let a THF melee on it, you should let a SAM use Soborro on it. If not, not.

MNK and NIN are in a different situation (properly geared) than other melee regarding TP feed. I'll melee stats in dynamis on MNK if we have too many weak black mages, and it doesn't create problems, for example.

I don't worry about TP feed in meripo unless I'm fighting Skoffins regularly.
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#91 Nov 27 2009 at 1:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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shintasama wrote:
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Who the heck needs to kraken zergs nyzul bosses?
You don't "need" to KC zerg anything, but it's really fun! XD

sidenote: I dismissed you as a random zanshin/ikki fanboy, but you're starting to grow on me. Keep it up! SAM forum alla needs more people that think logically and consider both sides rather than "this is what I do, it must be right" :3

sidenote#2: way too much karma camping in this thread, I hadn't touched my buttons so I greened everyone ^___^

sidenote#3:
Quote:
I just wanna add in that i am now the proud owner of a Soboro Sukehiro and will ding into it in 2 levels. Nice run, 7 people. We popped 9 times, wiped on the 4th, 5th was no drop, but dropped every other time. 7 Soboros for 7 people in about 4 hours counting downtime and the BLM going afk for 25 minutes.
Totally missed this when I was reading earlier, grats man!

Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 9:38pm by shintasama


tarowyn seems to generally be a quality poster. re: tp feeding i think he's simply overestimating its impact because he thinks it "should" be a problem, which is a bad place to argue from. i like this thread, b/c in the argument about "zanshin mattering", under the assumptions we were using i was plainly right (if X doesn't influence any action or decision, then it doesn't matter), though as it turns out, zanshin might matter to some ACC gear choices. i haven't thought of any yet, but it at least could.
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#92 Nov 27 2009 at 7:02 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
There are monsters where I can solo/tank them on NIN/dnc with relative ease, and yet you add a single THF or soborro SAM (yes, I said it), and I'm dead in short order.


This is true of any job though, solo tanking is infinitly easier than having another person there to **** up your rhythm.
#93 Nov 27 2009 at 9:31 PM Rating: Good
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Nah, two NIN or two MNK or a combination is actually a lot easier. Take NIN/dnc, for example - now you can stack quick and box steps, you have a 'voke to take it off you if things get hairy, you get doubly cured if you take damage, and if a debuff is resisted you have a backup while you wait on timers.

MNK/nin is similar - you have a second person applying TP reduction status via Chi Blast, you have another person who can pull it off you when things get nasty, if it is a spell-casting mob, you can make sure that one of you always holds 100TP to interrupt it with Asurans while the other can let loose (alternating turns to share hate), etc. Plus, as long as you can go Chakra to Chakra then the monster can't kill you - with a second person who pulls hate half the time, you only have to make it half the distance.

NIN + MNK works similarly, with a little of the good of each helping each other out. The effect of high amounts of subtle blow is, frankly, anything but subtle. (This only matters on things that don't die ultra fast.)

I was in sea duoing NIN and NIN and we had 0 issues on sharks. We added a THF and ended up have 3 different deaths back to back to back, before we figured out what the problem was. We changed strats to have him just plink with ranged, and suddenly we had no issue for the rest of the night.

I have enough similar experiences that I'm comfortable not worrying about it if you disagree, but I do recommend you try a few IT+ mobs with 2 x NIN &/or MNK and then do it with one less of those jobs and one more of the TP feed jobs before you decide if I'm wrong or right. :)
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#94 Nov 27 2009 at 10:11 PM Rating: Good
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Since this is bumped....there was some zanshin testing on BG fairly recently. It's still not great, but it is better than people thought. Probably not enough to skew any of the numbers here, but maybe. iunno. Yall can look it up and recrunch 100 hours of math if you want to.
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#95 Nov 28 2009 at 4:52 AM Rating: Good
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Ragarding the duo MNK or NIN being easier than solo MNK or NIN, I agree if both are evenly matched. I've duo'd before with friends, and they just can't take hate off me, even when I try to slow down. Gear and merits is obviously a lot to do with that.

Quote:
you can make sure that one of you always holds 100TP to interrupt it with Asurans Shoulder Tackle


fixed :)
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#96 Nov 29 2009 at 8:35 AM Rating: Default
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shintasama wrote:
Quote:
Again, TP feed is very important in places. EXP pty's is not one of them.
Ironically, the soboro NM is one of them XD


dictionary.com wrote:
i⋅ro⋅ny
1  /ˈaɪrəni, ˈaɪər-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ahy-ruh-nee, ahy-er-] Show IPA
Use irony in a Sentence
See web results for irony
See images of irony
–noun, plural -nies.
1. the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning: the irony of her reply, “How nice!” when I said I had to work all weekend.


Alanis Morissette should be shot in the head for convincing 95% of the English speaking population that "Irony" is a synonym for "Coincidence".
#97 Nov 29 2009 at 2:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Banggugyangu wrote:
shintasama wrote:
Quote:
Again, TP feed is very important in places. EXP pty's is not one of them.
Ironically, the soboro NM is one of them XD


dictionary.com wrote:
i⋅ro⋅ny
1  /ˈaɪrəni, ˈaɪər-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ahy-ruh-nee, ahy-er-] Show IPA
Use irony in a Sentence
See web results for irony
See images of irony
–noun, plural -nies.
1. the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning: the irony of her reply, “How nice!” when I said I had to work all weekend.


Alanis Morissette should be shot in the head for convincing 95% of the English speaking population that "Irony" is a synonym for "Coincidence".


no, it actually is ironic that the mob that drops soboro is one of the few mob-TP-matters mobs.

dictionary.com wrote:
5. an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected.
6. the incongruity of this.


there's a tension between the GK the mob drops and the mechanics of the fight. an irony, in fact.
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#98 Dec 01 2009 at 1:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Should you still be using Pole Grip/Brutal Earring with a Soboro or will it hurt its damage potential?
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#99 Dec 01 2009 at 7:04 AM Rating: Good
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Mythril Grip+1 would be a better choice over Pole for starters.

In your TP build, you could always use an ear setup like Hollow + Bushi, as long as you make sure your Brutal's equipped during WS.

The best grip to use for non-usukane SAM's is Rose Strap, as it allows you to hit 25% Haste /DRG and maintain a 6HIT (see Rose Strap thread).

When it comes to Brutal use during TP, i don't think it hurts you, your just lowering the chance at seeing a single or triple hit. You could use an ACC or Att ear to TP in to increase your DoT DMG (Acc obviously preferable as it also increases WS frequency as well)

Edited, Dec 1st 2009 8:15am by Sandmasterr
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#100 Dec 01 2009 at 9:26 AM Rating: Good
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milich wrote:
Banggugyangu wrote:
shintasama wrote:
Quote:
Again, TP feed is very important in places. EXP pty's is not one of them.
Ironically, the soboro NM is one of them XD


dictionary.com wrote:
i⋅ro⋅ny
1  /ˈaɪrəni, ˈaɪər-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ahy-ruh-nee, ahy-er-] Show IPA
Use irony in a Sentence
See web results for irony
See images of irony
–noun, plural -nies.
1. the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning: the irony of her reply, “How nice!” when I said I had to work all weekend.


Alanis Morissette should be shot in the head for convincing 95% of the English speaking population that "Irony" is a synonym for "Coincidence".


no, it actually is ironic that the mob that drops soboro is one of the few mob-TP-matters mobs.

dictionary.com wrote:
5. an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected.
6. the incongruity of this.


there's a tension between the GK the mob drops and the mechanics of the fight. an irony, in fact.
Ironically people using **** dictionaries is the number one reason there is soo much confusion over all the definitions of irony

(Situational irony: describes a discrepancy between the expected result and actual results when enlivened by 'perverse appropriateness')
Dudester wrote:
Should you still be using Pole Grip/Brutal Earring with a Soboro or will it hurt its damage potential?
+DA still helps you, just not by very much, definitely swap brutal on for WS
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#101 Dec 01 2009 at 11:24 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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I use Mythril +1 and don't TP in brutal with Soboro. Brutal is still great for WS though.

Yeah, DA helps, but the increases are extremely small. Not worth the sacrifice over something as simple as a fowling or merman earring.
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