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The Soboro debate thread, formerly @#$% it. I'm leveling SAMFollow

#27 Oct 15 2009 at 2:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aluus wrote:
@#$% it. I'm leveling SAM


I like your attitude about it. Go get your Domaru ready.
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#28 Oct 15 2009 at 3:42 PM Rating: Decent
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shintasama wrote:
Tarowyn wrote:
Zanshin
lolZanshin

*Shrug*, 40% chance of redoing a hit with increased accuracy is nothing to sniff at, but I guess in your world you always have capped acc on everything. (Where zanshin still benefits you) Technically zanshin will be one tier lower at lvl 50, but it's still something to take into account.
shintasama wrote:
Tarowyn wrote:
Mob tp
lolMobtp

Again, *shrug*, can't make you care about it, lol. It's there though, but noone seems to care so eh.
shintasama wrote:
Quote:
Eruca
The solution is not gimp your dmg it's to quit being dumb and fighting Eruca, there are much easier things to level off of that have worthless tp moves.

So what then, you end up fighting colibri or birds where guess what, gonna use polearm anyways so we don't need to worry about soboro.
shintasama wrote:
Tarowyn wrote:
at 50 the dot should in theory be about 19% more than a koryukagemitsu (40x2=80 vs 67, correct me if I'm wrong)
you forgot fSTR;

for fSTR of 8 (max 12 for soboro, 15 for koryu):
(40+8)x2= 96 vs (67+8)=74 -> ~1.297x

Seems a little high offhand, as an elvaan sam/war at lvl 50, I'm seeing a base str of 57. Only str gear for tp I would probably be wearing at that lvl is voyager and rajas so 64 str. 8 fSTR would mean the mobs I'm fighting would have 36 vit? I'm reading fSTR bonus is at 8 fSTR at +28 str on the mob so correct me if that's wrong, but still seems a tad on the high side.

Gonna punch the numbers for ws in a little bit, should try and do some work though, lol.

shintasama wrote:
If you want to account for acc/zanshin/hit distribution I showed how in that "past 60 soboro?" thread linked earlier. I just don't care enough. Given how Soboro stacks up to Hagun, it's pretty silly to even consider using another GK at 50.


I'm hesitant to do it just because it's seems such a brute force hack to just matrix out the whole thing, lol. Gotta be a better way of calculating it.

I'm pretty sure I've heard someone point out that soboro tends to get better the better your gear is, pretty much the more str you can jack onto it for ws, the better it stacks up. At lvl 50, you don't have that much str, you don't have an super easily str boosted ws, and the ws itself is not atk boosted like YGK which means stacking str isn't even neccesarily the best option at that lvl for dmg. Like I mentioned above, post 60, once you get yuki, it really starts to play towards it's strengths, but at 50, it's simply ok.

Edited, Oct 15th 2009 5:44pm by TarowynXI
#29 Oct 15 2009 at 4:01 PM Rating: Good
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DukeDawg wrote:
Aluus wrote:
@#$% it. I'm leveling SAM


I like your attitude about it. Go get your Domaru ready.


Wouldn't my Hauby+1 be better for tping and my kirin's osode better for ws? Just checking.
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#30 Oct 15 2009 at 4:37 PM Rating: Decent
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TarowynXI wrote:
shintasama wrote:
Tarowyn wrote:
Zanshin
lolZanshin

*Shrug*, 40% chance of redoing a hit with increased accuracy is nothing to sniff at, but I guess in your world you always have capped acc on everything. (Where zanshin still benefits you) Technically zanshin will be one tier lower at lvl 50, but it's still something to take into account.
Would love to hear where you're getting your information on this.
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#31 Oct 15 2009 at 5:12 PM Rating: Good
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http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=13&mid=1250652002146818391&page=1&howmany=50#m1250722376263355974

Mentioned in this forum a little bit ago. On that note, I'm the person Mote was actually referring to.

His testing itself was posted on the FFXIAH forum which I also posted the link to a few threads back, the 6 merit one or whatever it was.
#32 Oct 15 2009 at 6:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Did a bunch of math on analyzing the WS portion of koryu vs soboro and afterwards realized everything cancels out and it's actually really simple, lol.

Sample mob I used was the middle range (LVL 56) beetle in quicksands which has a 76 vit, pretty much making fstr exactly 0 for WS and actually negative for TP but I'll ignore that. WS came out to 45% stronger for koryu so assuming the 70% tp rate of soboro, soboro does about 17% more ws damage.

So overall, seems like soboro doing about 18%ish more dmg than koryu at 50 since the WS/TP ratios are more even at that lvl. It is a pretty significant dmg increase, moreso than I would have expected originally. So it just comes down to whether the individual person cares about the additional TP or not (Yes I know you don't shinta) and whether the person will actually lvl on regular mobs or just lolibri it all the way up.

Currently trying to look into how zanshin actually affects it but even you had to resort to using matlab to calculate it so I dunno if I can do it in spreadsheet, lol. Never did like this kind of stuff in college.

Btw, if you do still have the calculations you were doing, would it be easy to change the number of hits? Almost noone will have a 6-hit at lvl 50 and just wondering how that actually changes tping. Just for reference, using an elvaan sam/war with fairly decent tp gear, foodless acc w/hasso is at (225-193-(6*4)) = 79% acc. Sushi will cap, dunno about pizza.

Edited, Oct 15th 2009 8:20pm by TarowynXI
#33 Oct 15 2009 at 11:51 PM Rating: Good
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So what then, you end up fighting colibri or birds where guess what, gonna use polearm anyways so we don't need to worry about soboro.
51-60 this is true, but when you fight magmatic eruca (~60-70) you could be doing Defoliators, Date Eruca, Ziz, diremites, spiders or level syncing to just about anything. DMG wise, after you get yuki and until you have a 5hit w/ polearm the massive DoT, WSfreq, and acc/atk advantage of soboro is probably better than polearm's piercing bonus vs birds.
Quote:
I'm pretty sure I've heard someone point out that soboro tends to get better the better your gear is, pretty much the more str you can jack onto it for ws, the better it stacks up. At lvl 50, you don't have that much str, you don't have an super easily str boosted ws, and the ws itself is not atk boosted like YGK which means stacking str isn't even neccesarily the best option at that lvl for dmg. Like I mentioned above, post 60, once you get yuki, it really starts to play towards it's strengths, but at 50, it's simply ok.
It gets "better" the more STR etc you have (keep in mind mob vit rises as you level too, and while Jinpu doesn't have a huge STR mod but that doesn't mean STR is worthless particularly for Soboro), but it's still ridiculously better than any other GK for a long time, not "just ok".
Quote:
Sample mob I used was the middle range (LVL 56) beetle in quicksands which has a 76 vit, pretty much making fstr exactly 0 for WS and actually negative for TP but I'll ignore that.
Beetles and Crabs are PLDs so they have massive amounts of VIT compared to AU leveling mobs (lv83 colibri/most mamool only have 67 VIT for comparison's sake, scorps around the level you looked at have ~40VIT), making this a bad comparison mob if you're trying to apply this to AU camps
Quote:
WS came out to 45% stronger for koryu so assuming the 70% tp rate of soboro, soboro does about 17% more ws damage.
I don't think you realize how much of an increase that is? Hagun is something like ~9% better than Onimaru overall for 20x the price, soboro is free and one of the best GK in the game.
Quote:
Currently trying to look into how zanshin actually affects it but even you had to resort to using matlab to calculate it so I dunno if I can do it in spreadsheet, lol.
Matlab is just a glorified Ti-83, so I'm sure you could, I have no idea where my old files are and I'm busy rebuilding that computer since I fried the CPU, so searching through all my theorycrafting crap is not a high priority.
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#34 Oct 16 2009 at 12:50 AM Rating: Decent
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shintasama wrote:
51-60 this is true, but when you fight magmatic eruca (~60-70) you could be doing Defoliators, Date Eruca, Ziz, diremites, spiders or level syncing to just about anything. DMG wise, after you get yuki and until you have a 5hit w/ polearm the massive DoT, WSfreq, and acc/atk advantage of soboro is probably better than polearm's piercing bonus vs birds.

Well, out of that bunch, defoliators not too bad though their poison breath is actually a bit stronger than classic crawlers. Don't Date Eruca's incinerate also? Ziz is pretty harmless, diremites... the aoe dmg is kind of annoying, spiders are both dangerous and annoying with sickle slash/spider web. It's not just pure dmg, like spiders for instance, the extra tp means you're more likely to be slowed all the time, crawlers more likely to be cocooned, etc. As for polearm, I'm not so sure about yuki being able to match up to polearm on flyers. I've always felt that yuki's atk bonus isn't as strong (I think there was testing on this but I've been too lazy to read through it). Acc/Atk difference shoudn't be too huge and I dunno, I just don't see soboro being able to close that free full time +25% dmg. Maybe I'll try the math on Monday, done enough for today and gonna be gone all weekend.

shintasama wrote:
It gets "better" the more STR etc you have (keep in mind mob vit rises as you level too, and while Jinpu doesn't have a huge STR mod but that doesn't mean STR is worthless particularly for Soboro), but it's still ridiculously better than any other GK for a long time, not "just ok".

I never said it was worthless, I just it's not as easy to make up for the low base dmg as it is once you have the 75% mod ws's. Mob VIT is not really that important to what I was referring here since I was mainly talking about WS mods and not fSTR.

shintasama wrote:
Beetles and Crabs are PLDs so they have massive amounts of VIT compared to AU leveling mobs (lv83 colibri/most mamool only have 67 VIT for comparison's sake, scorps around the level you looked at have ~40VIT), making this a bad comparison mob if you're trying to apply this to AU camps

Well, my original response was to someone who said it's the best at 50, so the whole comparison came out of that. Once you hit TOA, the first mob you fight is colis at which point I I would say polearm and that becomes a totally different comparison.


shintasama wrote:
I don't think you realize how much of an increase that is? Hagun is something like ~9% better than Onimaru overall for 20x the price, soboro is free and one of the best GK in the game.

At the same time, I could say I don't think you realize how disrupting giving that much TP can be too. Soboro only increases your dmg but it can potentially have a negative effect on the party as a whole which is very difficult to measure.

As for Hagun, I kind of think the price tag is not so much because it's good in merits (though it does hold it's own obviously) but because it's good in a lot of other things sam does like HNM where the TP/WS dmg ratio is even bigger, the most extreme example being tping on outside mobs and only SAWSing stuff.

shintasama wrote:
Matlab is just a glorified Ti-83, so I'm sure you could, I have no idea where my old files are and I'm busy rebuilding that computer since I fried the CPU, so searching through all my theorycrafting crap is not a high priority.

Well I mean yeah I could do it eventually, but it doesn't sound very fun, lol. I do prefer being able to automate as much as possible. I dunno if I feel like bothering anyways, since most people don't seem give a crap about zanshin.
#35 Oct 16 2009 at 2:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
At the same time, I could say I don't think you realize how disrupting giving that much TP can be too. Soboro only increases your dmg but it can potentially have a negative effect on the party as a whole which is very difficult to measure.

Not that difficult. Parse X amount of XP with soboro, X amount with other GK of your choice. Since the point of a party is XP, whatever else is happening in the party doesn't matter (mages getting lower on mp, tank whining about hate, etc), your final XP output matters. Pros (Soboro increased damage output) will overshadow cons (increased mob tp moves). The reasons not to use a soboro have to do with party quality (gimp pt + well geared soboro sam = fugly mess).

Quote:
since most people don't seem give a crap about zanshin.

There's a reason for that. Whether zanshin is a 40% proc rate with increased acc or not, nothing changes the fact that, as an ability that can only proc when you miss, it's worth very little. It is true that you won't always have capped acc from 50-75, but especially with 2 handed weps, high acc is very easy to come by. If you are fighting mobs where your acc is low enough for zanshin to hit its optimal ranges, you can probably solo/campaign better xp than you are getting in that party.

OP: You can't go wrong getting a soboro. The NM is not so difficult that you shouldn't consider pickup groups for it, but the main danger in PUGs is that it takes a while to get out there, it takes a while to wait for ??? repop, and if there are a crapton of people wanting a soboro, odds are good that the group will not last long enough to get everyone theirs, even if it's an honorable group. Add to that the "LOL SUCKERS I GOT MY SOBORO NOW F U!" PUGs and it can be a long and frustrating journey. The best way to do it is obviously to get a team of friends/LS mates to go with you, but barring that, even getting ~3 friends to go with you on a PUG boosts your chances of succesfully getting the weapon.
#36 Oct 16 2009 at 2:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
At the same time, I could say I don't think you realize how disrupting giving that much TP can be too. Soboro only increases your dmg but it can potentially have a negative effect on the party as a whole which is very difficult to measure


I really think you need to move away from the whole 'giving mob tp' argument for exp pty's. Also, the more DMG you do, the quicker the mob KO's meaning the less tp moves it gets off. Aside from that, we're nearly in 2010, and exp pty's can handle mob tp moves.

There are times to worry about feeding mobs TP, but those times are not during exp pty's. I mean, BRD is generally a requirment in exp pty's, and they can slow the mob down by 50% turning most exp stuff into pansy's.
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#37 Oct 16 2009 at 2:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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huge walls of text... in lieu of reading it (no offense; i'll try to read it some other time if i get bored i guess... i'm not writing that i didn't read as an insult but a caveat) i want to further point out: zanshin only could have mattered for that X-hit **** and iki merits that kinematics linked to a little while ago, but rose strap made all that ******** obsolete. zanshin doesn't matter at all, believe it. if this sounds like "because i said so," again, it's not that, it's "show me where you think zanshin makes a difference and i'll show you where you're making a mistake".

re: TP feeding, it doesn't matter. it's called placebo. listen, you don't kill your tank when a RDM remembers to haste everyone or you get march, and that's a comparable TP increase to 1 guy using soboro. 4 guys using soboro = mob dies so fast, you're either overcamping or wearing nothing but the soboro if you have problems in that party.

again, apologies for ignoring things, but seriously, you should never ever argue from zanshin or argue about mob TP feeding, b/c they just are irrelevant. or to put it another way, if you want to do either you need to be very concise and (if you want to be intellectually honest) cite realistic examples.
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#38 Oct 16 2009 at 3:00 AM Rating: Decent
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iheartninja wrote:
Not that difficult. Parse X amount of XP with soboro, X amount with other GK of your choice. Since the point of a party is XP, whatever else is happening in the party doesn't matter (mages getting lower on mp, tank whining about hate, etc), your final XP output matters. Pros (Soboro increased damage output) will overshadow cons (increased mob tp moves). The reasons not to use a soboro have to do with party quality (gimp pt + well geared soboro sam = fugly mess).

That's actually harder than it sounds since you have to make sure everything's the same, noone lvls (or at least the lvl sync in most cases), no party changes, etc... Easy when you're meriting but that's really quite different from the scenario I'm talking about when you can lvl in under an hr.

iheartninja wrote:
There's a reason for that. Whether zanshin is a 40% proc rate with increased acc or not, nothing changes the fact that, as an ability that can only proc when you miss, it's worth very little. It is true that you won't always have capped acc from 50-75, but especially with 2 handed weps, high acc is very easy to come by. If you are fighting mobs where your acc is low enough for zanshin to hit its optimal ranges, you can probably solo/campaign better xp than you are getting in that party.

Never quite sure what people are talking about when they talk about optimal ranges for zanshin, there's no such thing as far as I can tell. Colibri if nothing else is a great place for zanshin because most people just eat meat there so you'll tend to wander a little farther from acc cap (not talking about meriting, only xping). It's not like I'm saying oh yeah, take off acc so you can zanshin more, zanshin will always help you, how much may vary on your acc, but it always provides something.

Sandmasterr wrote:
I really think you need to move away from the whole 'giving mob tp' argument for exp pty's. Also, the more DMG you do, the quicker the mob KO's meaning the less tp moves it gets off. Aside from that, we're nearly in 2010, and exp pty's can handle mob tp moves.

There are times to worry about feeding mobs TP, but those times are not during exp pty's. I mean, BRD is generally a requirment in exp pty's, and they can slow the mob down by 50% turning most exp stuff into pansy's.

The quick the mob dies the less tp moves thing is not quite actually true since it can just do the same amount of tp moves in a smaller span of time but whatever. I dunno if people really can handle mob tp moves better or if they just use lvl sync to not have to deal with anything with nasty tp moves truthfully, lol.

I'll admit I haven't seriously lvled in parties in a while, probably since just before lvl sync came out so I dunno how that affected party setups, but I think I had less than 5 parties with brds in them in the trip from 50-75 on pld...

milich wrote:
huge walls of text... in lieu of reading it (no offense; i'll try to read it some other time if i get bored i guess... i'm not writing that i didn't read as an insult but a caveat) i want to further point out: zanshin only could have mattered for that X-hit sh*t and iki merits that kinematics linked to a little while ago, but rose strap made all that bullsh*t obsolete. zanshin doesn't matter at all, believe it. if this sounds like "because i said so," again, it's not that, it's "show me where you think zanshin makes a difference and i'll show you where you're making a mistake".

re: TP feeding, it doesn't matter. it's called placebo. listen, you don't kill your tank when a RDM remembers to haste everyone or you get march, and that's a comparable TP increase to 1 guy using soboro. 4 guys using soboro = mob dies so fast, you're either overcamping or wearing nothing but the soboro if you have problems in that party.

again, apologies for ignoring things, but seriously, you should never ever argue from zanshin or argue about mob TP feeding, b/c they just are irrelevant. or to put it another way, if you want to do either you need to be very concise and (if you want to be intellectually honest) cite realistic examples.

I was mainly just quoting him because people were asking where I was getting the activation rate for zanshin from. The original thread on ffxiah was more of a proof of theory on what zanshin can do, rose strap just takes askar out of the equation, zanshin will always remain though. I just don't understand how it can not matter at all, looking even at 95% acc, zanshin gives you essentially 1.9% acc which also happen to kind of break the acc cap (it's more complicated than that with DA and stuff but it's sufficient as an example). Sure it's not much, but it's always there and it always has some effect, how much just varies on the situation.

As for TP feeding, I dunno, I just don't see it the same way, haste/march are both very gradual methods of feeding TP. Soboro is sudden very large bursts of TP (especially 3 hit rounds). Those can cause increase the chance of accidents happening because it makes it very easy for a mob to WS twice in a very short span of time. There's also the matter of the whole TP/DMG ratio. Haste, while you attack faster, you still have the same ratio of TP to how much dmg you deal. Soboro on the other hand trades in more dmg for greatly increasing the amount of TP you do so over the course of the life of the mob, it will definitely have more TP. Whether this actually leads to more WS's or not will depend on your luck.

Edit: Forgot to add this, what exactly do you consider realistic examples? Most of the examples I've given I consider very realistic, but you don't see it that way so I dunno what to do with that, lol.

Edited, Oct 16th 2009 5:07am by TarowynXI
#39 Oct 16 2009 at 3:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
As for TP feeding, I dunno, I just don't see it the same way, haste/march are both very gradual methods of feeding TP. Soboro is sudden very large bursts of TP (especially 3 hit rounds). Those can cause increase the chance of accidents happening because it makes it very easy for a mob to WS twice in a very short span of time. There's also the matter of the whole TP/DMG ratio. Haste, while you attack faster, you still have the same ratio of TP to how much dmg you deal. Soboro on the other hand trades in more dmg for greatly increasing the amount of TP you do so over the course of the life of the mob, it will definitely have more TP. Whether this actually leads to more WS's or not will depend on your luck.


Your bringing out a lot of theory, and not willing to change your mind on any of it (talking about you disagreeing with everything ppl are saying, not just tp feed - I share your views on ikishoten). TP feeding really is unimportant. You've said yourself you haven't exp now in a long time, so i think your judgment is off, and your trying to imagine what devastating dmg these mobs could do with their tp moves.

Players have learned to stand behind Eruca/crawlers on the rare times they might be exp'd on.

Players know not to fight crawlers or crabs w/o dispell for self defence buffs

We know when fighting Puk's to stand with our backs near a wall and not to use Detonation SC's >.>

Those CM birds 54-59 are stupidly easy

Imps TP moves speak for themselves

Nin tank's for lower lvl colibri pty's do what they can to get through those tough levels (for them) and there have been countless threads on nin forum about best ways for nin's to handle tanking colibri's.

Basically, ToAU mobs imo were a gift from SE, they made lvling 50+ easier and faster. Some ppl hate ToAU, but im sure when they make pty's, they take their groups to ToAU camps just like the next person (instead of old skool camps)

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#40 Oct 16 2009 at 3:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
That's actually harder than it sounds since you have to make sure everything's the same, noone lvls (or at least the lvl sync in most cases), no party changes, etc... Easy when you're meriting but that's really quite different from the scenario I'm talking about when you can lvl in under an hr.


You don't need to make sure everything is the same, you just need to control for the obvious. If someone dings, you start your comparisons again (which is easier than ever now, since most parties are level synced, so there's only 1 person you need to monitor). Get a rep? Start your comparisons again. If soboro damage is better than TP moves at 63, it's also better at 64. And 65. You won't be getting wildly different results, just a bunch of smaller samples instead of one big sample (which you would be getting in merits). You're obviously an intelligent guy/gal, so you'll throw out the ones where the tank is chaging his toddler's diaper while partying and dies 17 times.
Will I do it? No, because I have enough confidence in the answer already. If you want to challenge the general consensus on this (which is fine, I'm not implying that you shouldn't), above is the way to do that.

Quote:
Never quite sure what people are talking about when they talk about optimal ranges for zanshin, there's no such thing as far as I can tell.

Optimal range describes when the effect of zanshin has the most benefit on damage. If you are at 95% accuracy, there are far fewer opportunities for zanshin to proc than if you are at 85%, 75%, etc. Eventually you get to some point where your accuracy is low enough to make zanshin procs happen at a rate that is favorable to world harmony, but if you get any lower the moon won't line up with mars when it's in ascendance and the dark god will rise from the abyss again or something. Don't know or care much about the details, because zanshin is so meh, but someone did the math and can surely provide a link. No one is saying zanshin is bad - of course swinging again when you miss is good. But when you don't miss much, it's mostly irrelevant. And when you do miss a lot, you have bigger worries than zanshin.
#41 Oct 16 2009 at 3:44 AM Rating: Default
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Sandmasterr wrote:
Your bringing out a lot of theory, and not willing to change your mind on any of it (talking about you disagreeing with everything ppl are saying, not just tp feed - I share your views on ikishoten). TP feeding really is unimportant. You've said yourself you haven't exp now in a long time, so i think your judgment is off, and your trying to imagine what devastating dmg these mobs could do with their tp moves.

Players have learned to stand behind Eruca/crawlers on the rare times they might be exp'd on.

Players know not to fight crawlers or crabs w/o dispell for self defence buffs

We know when fighting Puk's to stand with our backs near a wall and not to use Detonation SC's >.>

Those CM birds 54-59 are stupidly easy

Imps TP moves speak for themselves

Nin tank's for lower lvl colibri pty's do what they can to get through those tough levels (for them) and there have been countless threads on nin forum about best ways for nin's to handle tanking colibri's.

Basically, ToAU mobs imo were a gift from SE, they made lvling 50+ easier and faster. Some ppl hate ToAU, but im sure when they make pty's, they take their groups to ToAU camps just like the next person (instead of old skool camps)

I dunno, none of what you said actually counteracts the issue of TP feed though.

Crawlers: Someone always has to get hit no matter what, there's also cocoon, which yes of course you have a dispel but unless it's a cor, it's not instant, your dispeller can be casting something else delaying their dispel etc... Is this guaranteed that this will happen? No, but will it have a greater chance of happening if the mob does more tp moves, yes. Same goes for crabs of course.

Puks: Weak to piercing, will probably use polearm, but just in case you don't. Shadow move, guaranteed to reduce party dmg unless you have a rdm who is super fast on diaga, serious, how much can you depend on that. AOE flash, same deal, reduce dmg for the entire party.

Colis: Total polearm, shouldn't even be a question, not as though their tp moves are worth a crap anyways.

Imps: I think you agree with me on imps but I'm not sure? But just in case, amnesia screws over the whole party, though with 50/50 chance on that, chances are you'll be amnesiaed most of the time anyways.

It's not just a killing the tank thing, mobs still have tp moves which slow down the entire party as I've noted above. As I noted above, it's really hard to test side by side because variables like party lvl change to fast at those lvls so you'd have to like lvl sync, and then re lvl sync with the same job setups once the sync lvls to really test.

I haven't xped in a while but I did still go completely through TOA on 3 jobs if I recall, my lack of experience is more post lvl sync. Maybe I am being stubborn, but on the other hand, most people have just said, oh it doesn't matter, take it and like it. They haven't really done anything to try and convince me other than say I'm wrong.

#42 Oct 16 2009 at 3:52 AM Rating: Default
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iheartninja wrote:
You don't need to make sure everything is the same, you just need to control for the obvious. If someone dings, you start your comparisons again (which is easier than ever now, since most parties are level synced, so there's only 1 person you need to monitor). Get a rep? Start your comparisons again. If soboro damage is better than TP moves at 63, it's also better at 64. And 65. You won't be getting wildly different results, just a bunch of smaller samples instead of one big sample (which you would be getting in merits). You're obviously an intelligent guy/gal, so you'll throw out the ones where the tank is chaging his toddler's diaper while partying and dies 17 times.
Will I do it? No, because I have enough confidence in the answer already. If you want to challenge the general consensus on this (which is fine, I'm not implying that you shouldn't), above is the way to do that.

Yeah, but if you think about it, in the 50's you don't even need 10k xp to lvl, that's like, hour maybe, half an hr on each weapon is not really a very big sample size. The other reason it's actually hard to do nowadays is I'd actually have to find a party that isn't lvl syncing to a non bird camp at a post soboro lvl, lol.

I am actually relevelling sam on my 2nd char, so I may get to try it, but it probably won't happen any time soon, don't really have time to lvl much nowadays unfortunately.

iheartninja wrote:
Optimal range describes when the effect of zanshin has the most benefit on damage. If you are at 95% accuracy, there are far fewer opportunities for zanshin to proc than if you are at 85%, 75%, etc. Eventually you get to some point where your accuracy is low enough to make zanshin procs happen at a rate that is favorable to world harmony, but if you get any lower the moon won't line up with mars when it's in ascendance and the dark god will rise from the abyss again or something. Don't know or care much about the details, because zanshin is so meh, but someone did the math and can surely provide a link. No one is saying zanshin is bad - of course swinging again when you miss is good. But when you don't miss much, it's mostly irrelevant. And when you do miss a lot, you have bigger worries than zanshin.

I dunno, the concept of optimal range doesn't make sense to me, it's not like zanshin can ever in ANY case allow you to have higher acc then if you'd higher acc to begin with.
#43 Oct 16 2009 at 4:05 AM Rating: Good
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As someone who enjoys SAM level syncing for fun, the Soboro is seriously 'broken'. Even if you have full-time Seigan up, you'll out parse everyone else without breaking a sweat. DRG's, WAR's, DRK's, MNK's, it doesn't matter they all lose to the Soboro. A Ridill with A+ skill and the 2-hand ACC bonus is pure win. It's that **** good.
#44 Oct 16 2009 at 11:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's ancedotal, but I've had SAM's that thought mobtp would be an issue switch to soboro with me halfway through a Mamool Ja Meritpo w/o telling anyone else, and the backline didn't even notice the difference in mobWS/dmg taken.
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#45 Oct 16 2009 at 12:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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TarowynXI wrote:
milich wrote:
huge walls of text... in lieu of reading it (no offense; i'll try to read it some other time if i get bored i guess... i'm not writing that i didn't read as an insult but a caveat) i want to further point out: zanshin only could have mattered for that X-hit sh*t and iki merits that kinematics linked to a little while ago, but rose strap made all that bullsh*t obsolete. zanshin doesn't matter at all, believe it. if this sounds like "because i said so," again, it's not that, it's "show me where you think zanshin makes a difference and i'll show you where you're making a mistake".

re: TP feeding, it doesn't matter. it's called placebo. listen, you don't kill your tank when a RDM remembers to haste everyone or you get march, and that's a comparable TP increase to 1 guy using soboro. 4 guys using soboro = mob dies so fast, you're either overcamping or wearing nothing but the soboro if you have problems in that party.

again, apologies for ignoring things, but seriously, you should never ever argue from zanshin or argue about mob TP feeding, b/c they just are irrelevant. or to put it another way, if you want to do either you need to be very concise and (if you want to be intellectually honest) cite realistic examples.

I was mainly just quoting him because people were asking where I was getting the activation rate for zanshin from. The original thread on ffxiah was more of a proof of theory on what zanshin can do, rose strap just takes askar out of the equation, zanshin will always remain though. I just don't understand how it can not matter at all, looking even at 95% acc, zanshin gives you essentially 1.9% acc which also happen to kind of break the acc cap (it's more complicated than that with DA and stuff but it's sufficient as an example). Sure it's not much, but it's always there and it always has some effect, how much just varies on the situation.


i think you need to take a clearer look at what it means for something to matter. the word isn't overstretched if you go crazy and say "zanshin gave me 1 extra swing in an hour, so it mattered," but really i think that's not quite getting the word right. zanshin doesn't matter because it doesn't influence what you should do. it doesn't influence any decisions. so, it doesn't matter.

it's like guard. perhaps my leveled guard saved my life one time and i didn't realize it, but does guard suddenly matter? if 1 freak guard saves your life, it's not guard that matters, it's luck and chance. 1 freak thing never matters in the way a general concept can matter. again, this is precisely because there's nothing you can do about 1 freak thing--just like there's no gear comparison or strategy comparison that changes because of zanshin.

---

re: TP building, you're telling me it should matter, i'm telling you it doesn't. to mention guard again, you're talking like people who say "it mitigates some damage, how could it not matter!?" well, it doesn't. and if you want to show that it does, use numbers. i've seen multi-soboro lv50 parties and it doesn't cause a WS extravaganza. maybe it feels like it should, but it doesn't, so that's kind of that. you know?
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#46 Oct 16 2009 at 7:36 PM Rating: Decent
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shintasama wrote:
It's ancedotal, but I've had SAM's that thought mobtp would be an issue switch to soboro with me halfway through a Mamool Ja Meritpo w/o telling anyone else, and the backline didn't even notice the difference in mobWS/dmg taken.

That actually makes sense, merit mobs will tend to die MUCH faster than xp mobs so there the extra tp is not as noticeable. The only xp spot I can think of where you kill mobs at a comparable speed to merit would be syncing to colis which ends up being a polearm situation.

milich wrote:
i think you need to take a clearer look at what it means for something to matter. the word isn't overstretched if you go crazy and say "zanshin gave me 1 extra swing in an hour, so it mattered," but really i think that's not quite getting the word right. zanshin doesn't matter because it doesn't influence what you should do. it doesn't influence any decisions. so, it doesn't matter.

it's like guard. perhaps my leveled guard saved my life one time and i didn't realize it, but does guard suddenly matter? if 1 freak guard saves your life, it's not guard that matters, it's luck and chance. 1 freak thing never matters in the way a general concept can matter. again, this is precisely because there's nothing you can do about 1 freak thing--just like there's no gear comparison or strategy comparison that changes because of zanshin.

---

re: TP building, you're telling me it should matter, i'm telling you it doesn't. to mention guard again, you're talking like people who say "it mitigates some damage, how could it not matter!?" well, it doesn't. and if you want to show that it does, use numbers. i've seen multi-soboro lv50 parties and it doesn't cause a WS extravaganza. maybe it feels like it should, but it doesn't, so that's kind of that. you know?

I dunno, we're talking about a game where we spend 3mil gil for +7 acc rings which has a lower benefit to acc (vs +5acc rings) than zanshin at it's proc rate at 95% acc. I guess the concrete example in this case would be, soboro has a 70% chance of not being a single attack, so in theory, your acc bonus from zanshin at 95% base acc goes from 1.9% to .57% so it's equivalent to about the loss of 2 acc at capped acc. This is a general approximation of course, again, DA tends to mess with the actual value. I'm just not sure at what point we're supposed to not care.

As for TP building, I can't really give numbers simply based on the fact that I don't know the statistics for mobs doing tp moves above 25% hp and I don't know for sure about the one thing I mentioned way back about multi hits causing a mob multiple chances to proc ws on one attack round. If I get a chance, I will try and parse the difference and see how it is but don't hold your breath on that, hehe. Unfortunately, it's hard for me to get the solid 2-3 hrs in a row to do xp on a regular basis.
#47 Oct 16 2009 at 8:44 PM Rating: Good
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I partied against Eruca as Soboro SAM. No one died, good quick EXP. What else can I ask for?

The reduction of Zanshin is way less beneficial than the gain of natural multi-hit. Also note that Soboro can hit 2 OR 3 times with a total maximum of 3 hits out of 3 attempts, whereas Zanshin hits once (not that super on TP return without Ikki either) AND only happens when you initially missed to give a total maximum of one single hit out of two attempts. Yes Zanshin is useful (because it's not useless), but Soboro is even more useful.
#48 Oct 17 2009 at 10:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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TarowynXI wrote:
I dunno, we're talking about a game where we spend 3mil gil for +7 acc rings which has a lower benefit to acc (vs +5acc rings) than zanshin at it's proc rate at 95% acc. I guess the concrete example in this case would be, soboro has a 70% chance of not being a single attack, so in theory, your acc bonus from zanshin at 95% base acc goes from 1.9% to .57% so it's equivalent to about the loss of 2 acc at capped acc. This is a general approximation of course, again, DA tends to mess with the actual value. I'm just not sure at what point we're supposed to not care.


at exactly the point where a stat never influences gear/strategy/merit comparisons. hence everything i wrote in the last post...

as for the TP thing, again, it's foolish to mention it re: soboro. even if every strike is a chance to hit, you're just one party member and not a particularly oft-hitting one (compared to, say, MNK) so it doesn't matter. also, you're exaggerating the mob TP thing in your mind, but that one is just "take my word for it" (the first point is a principled argument).
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#49 Oct 17 2009 at 6:43 PM Rating: Good
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I just wanna add in that i am now the proud owner of a Soboro Sukehiro and will ding into it in 2 levels. Nice run, 7 people. We popped 9 times, wiped on the 4th, 5th was no drop, but dropped every other time. 7 Soboros for 7 people in about 4 hours counting downtime and the BLM going afk for 25 minutes.
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#50 Oct 18 2009 at 3:33 AM Rating: Good
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milich wrote:
at exactly the point where a stat never influences gear/strategy/merit comparisons. hence everything i wrote in the last post...

as for the TP thing, again, it's foolish to mention it re: soboro. even if every strike is a chance to hit, you're just one party member and not a particularly oft-hitting one (compared to, say, MNK) so it doesn't matter. also, you're exaggerating the mob TP thing in your mind, but that one is just "take my word for it" (the first point is a principled argument).

Like I pointed out though, at 95% acc, it already has a greater effect than upgrading to a +7 acc ring from a +5 acc one so does that mean toreader/sniper+1's are inconsequential? Than how much acc becomes enough that we have to care about it and who decides that?

For TP, eh, we both have no real proof, we're both kind of just saying, but this is what I believe, so we'll just agree to disagree. Without any sort of parse or anything, there's no end to it.

And it's semi moot anyways now since the OP has already gotten it, grats btw, hehe.
#51 Oct 18 2009 at 3:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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TarowynXI wrote:
milich wrote:
at exactly the point where a stat never influences gear/strategy/merit comparisons. hence everything i wrote in the last post...

as for the TP thing, again, it's foolish to mention it re: soboro. even if every strike is a chance to hit, you're just one party member and not a particularly oft-hitting one (compared to, say, MNK) so it doesn't matter. also, you're exaggerating the mob TP thing in your mind, but that one is just "take my word for it" (the first point is a principled argument).

Like I pointed out though, at 95% acc, it already has a greater effect than upgrading to a +7 acc ring from a +5 acc one so does that mean toreader/sniper+1's are inconsequential? Than how much acc becomes enough that we have to care about it and who decides that?


i'm sorry to phrase it like this, because you're very polite but: what is your problem? listen to me: a stat matters when it influences any decision. "but zanshin does more than a toreador when--" no, listen to me: a stat matters when it influences some decision. does a toreador's effect matter? well let's see. you can buy that toreador, or something else. looks like we're on to something here. now we have zanshin. it does something. we're not on to anything yet, let's look further. zanshin does something, and here's what it does [numbers, effect at different ACC%s]. this means that we should... should... should do what? wait a minute, this doesn't mean we should change how we act in any way whatsoever. now we're back at "zanshin doesn't matter". do you really not understand what i'm saying? if you write back "but it's more potent than a toreador ring" one more time, please don't expect a response, or at least a respectful response.

re: TP feeding, either you've partied with NINs, MNKs, soboro SAMs, or you haven't. we can "agree to disagree" if you want, but making up "well it *should* be this way b/c you [vaguely] feed a lot of TP," is not convincing. going further and telling people your imagined argument matters to whether or not they should use soboro is intellectually dishonest and irresponsible.
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