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The Soboro debate thread, formerly @#$% it. I'm leveling SAMFollow

#1 Oct 14 2009 at 3:43 AM Rating: Default
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So i decided to take SAM up to 75. Couple quick questions: I've got most the basic gear for level 75 already due to 75 ninja and 75 drk. I know Hagun is pretty much mandatory, but i've heard an augmented rindomaru can be better so long as it has store tp+15 or more. Sound about right?

Second, I don't have a Soboro and don't think i'll be getting one. How badly will this hurt me as i level up? Furthermore, if i DO manage to get one, are people still dumb enough to let me use it til hagun?



See below

Edited, Oct 16th 2009 3:29pm by Aluus
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#2 Oct 14 2009 at 3:57 AM Rating: Excellent
The Soboro is really only good nowadays if you use Sam/Rng, and that isn't as big as it used to be due to the boost that two-handed weapons got, the boosts to Yukikaze, Gekko, and Kasha damage wise, and the boost Penta Thrust got (which makes /Rng less spectacular on Colibri, so it wouldn't gimp you to not have one by any means, as long as you made sure to stay on top of your other weapon upgrades.

As for an augmented Rindomaru, the consensus is, is that one with around +15 store TP and weaponskill damage +2-3% can outperform a Hagun if you have the proper gear to support it (the Rindomaru with sufficient store TP can allow for a rather effective five-hit build).
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#3 Oct 14 2009 at 5:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm at AF GK level atm. Any other particular GK's i should keep an eye out for on the AH til hagun? Common sense says highest dmg weapon for your level of course, but since SAM is also about tp generation, any in particular that due to dmg/delay/x-hit build really shine? All i tend to see these days are soboro sam/nin from like level 30 on.

Other question, /WAR is the standard of course, but how's /drg when it comes to getting parties? I understand the benefits of the sub, and furthermore already have a wyvern earring for the 5% haste from my drk's zerg set.
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#4 Oct 14 2009 at 6:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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If you're able to get Soboro, it's suggested to get one. It's great GK to have while solo/campaign/whatever when you go SAM/DNC. I did use Soboro all the way to Hagun. There's nothing stupid about letting SAM using Soboro in EXP PT assuming the SAM knows how to play. Personally, I have more fun using Soboro than Hagun.

As for /DRG, it's definitely great to have. It's part of the reason why I like Soboro too. I can go SAM/DRG with Soboro having multi-hit and Jump/HighJump and generate TP like crazy if needed to, plus the very valuable Haste 5% of course.
#5 Oct 14 2009 at 7:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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[quote=Vlorsutes, Lord of Stuff] The Soboro is really only good nowadays if you use ***************************************************************************************************************************

also: SAM/DRG vs SAM/WAR


tl;dr- you're going to want a soboro
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#6 Oct 14 2009 at 7:32 AM Rating: Excellent
For what Great Katanas I'd recommend, I'd go in this order

Magoroku (where you're at now)
Koryukagemitsu
Amakura / Daihannya (Daihannya is better, but for its price and abundance, the Amakura is a very close second)
Zanbato +1
Kazaridaichi
Hagun
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#7 Oct 14 2009 at 9:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm confused at why you would say that the 2 handed update change to Y/G/K has made soboro less worthwhile when in fact that has boosted Soboro's effectiveness as a GK (when not using /rng for sidewinder spam). The way it works is that now you can forgo acc/att for all out str. This is going to help out Soboro more due to the almost double WS frequency it has. For instance if you have 100 str total in your WS setup (just using a random number), soboro will take its 40 base damage and add in another 75 from mods to be a 115 damage GK. While leveling up you will most likely have a GK in the 60-70 base damage range (before reaching into the level 70+ range). so take that 65 damage GK and add in the 75 from mods and you get a GK with a base damage of 140. While 140 is obviously greater than 115, you have to take into account that you will get about a 2:1 WS ratio (slightly less but close enough). Soboro will do more in WS damage in 2 WS's than the 1 high damage GK WS by a good amount.

I didnt even take into account fStr which will benefit Soboro more as well.

tldr: Dont discount soboro's low base damage. It's WS frequency and DoT are good compared to a lot of other GK's.
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#8 Oct 14 2009 at 9:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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shintasama wrote:
Vlorsutes, Lord of Stuff wrote:
The Soboro is really only good nowadays if you use Sam/Rng,
bullsh*t

also: SAM/DRG vs SAM/WAR


tl;dr- you're going to want a soboro

This is correct, Soboro is definitely strong as a weapon, all the way to 75. In merits, it's possible for it to beat Hagun. Please see this thread for math.
Vlorsutes, Lord of Stuff wrote:

Magoroku (where you're at now) Soboro
Koryukagemitsu Soboro
Amakura / Daihannya (Daihannya is better, but for its price and abundance, the Amakura is a very close second) Soboro
Zanbato +1 Soboro
Kazaridaichi Soboro
Hagun/Soboro

This is more correct in best weapons. If used right however, it will definitely generate more hate by you. Keep that in mind. Also, by used correctly, I mean WSing as soon as you get to 100+tp. This is the best way to use Soboro(and Gtkn in general) for SAM.

Edit: be =! beat

Edited, Oct 14th 2009 11:34am by Souji
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#9 Oct 14 2009 at 9:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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I never leave mog house as SAM without Soboro. Not only is it excellent from 50-74, I keep finding uses for it at 75. I wouldn't even bother with sam/dnc without Soboro, and sam/dnc is great. If you have Riverne site B access and don't have Soboro, you really don't have much of an excuse. The NM isn't that hard, you can kill him in a normal-ish party assuming you have some stunners and a good tank.
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#10 Oct 14 2009 at 10:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Soboro is king imo, really is one of the bes6t weapons in the game from 50 > time you put game to rest



Edited, Oct 14th 2009 12:22pm by Fluffysnowball
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#11 Oct 14 2009 at 11:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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If Soboro existed when I levelled SAM, I certainly wouldn't have levelled past 50 without it. It's so ridiculously overpowered at that level it would be a crying shame to miss out on it. As everyone mentioned, it can still be useful at 75 as well. SAM/DNC is in another league because of it.

Also, it is my understanding that augmented Rindo can only compete with Hagun if you can manage a full-Usukane fueled 5-hit setup with it.

Edited, Oct 14th 2009 10:47am by Filian
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#12 Oct 14 2009 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
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Souji wrote:
Magoroku (where you're at now) Soboro
Koryukagemitsu Soboro
Amakura / Daihannya (Daihannya is better, but for its price and abundance, the Amakura is a very close second) Soboro
Zanbato +1 Soboro
Kazaridaichi Soboro
Hagun/Soboro


If you can tell me how to pull that one off...

Anyway, regarding getting a Soboro think a pick-up group would work?
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#13 Oct 14 2009 at 4:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Probably noone cares, but would like to point out the original analysis doesn't take into account zanshin proc as soboro essentially has a 70% chance of not being able to proc zanshin. With capped acc, it's probably not a big deal anyways but you can't always guarantee capped acc pre merits.

As for the soboro/regular GK thing, I dunno how big a deal it is nowadays considering half the time you'll probably level sync to colis and end up using a polearm anyways. In other cases, depends on the mob really. Even though people talk about how TP doesn't matter because a mob dies in 30 seconds, realistically, not every single xp party's gonna be moving at merit pace, and the extra TP you're feeding the mob can make a difference. All depends on the party/camp really.

An aside to this, while reading through one of the posted links, someone talked about one reason why TP feeding isn't a big deal is a mob isn't guaranteed to WS at 100% tp until 25% hp anwyays. I recall reading at one point that during the >25% hp period, there's a check on whether the mob decides to use tp everytime it's tp changes, either from hitting or getting hit. I kind of doubt it but has there ever been any testing that multi hits would actually cause it to do multiple checks for tp usage or is it just one check for the entire round? Sounds very annoying to test but I have to wonder. Guess wouldn't be too bad testing with a KC, lol.
#14 Oct 14 2009 at 5:43 PM Rating: Good
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An aside to this, while reading through one of the posted links, someone talked about one reason why TP feeding isn't a big deal is a mob isn't guaranteed to WS at 100% tp until 25% hp anwyays. I recall reading at one point that during the >25% hp period, there's a check on whether the mob decides to use tp everytime it's tp changes, either from hitting or getting hit. I kind of doubt it but has there ever been any testing that multi hits would actually cause it to do multiple checks for tp usage or is it just one check for the entire round? Sounds very annoying to test but I have to wonder. Guess wouldn't be too bad testing with a KC, lol.


I'm not sure why multiple checks would even be necessary (nor do I see how it would make a difference if it did) because all the hits, and therefore all the TP bestowed, are essentially calculated all at once. My brain might just be oozing atm though; if someone could clarify what this would mean...

I know that there is some sort of distinction that can be made in the middle of a multi-hit attack, but I don't know if that applies to mob TP checks, and like I said, I'm not sure how it would ever matter. (For instance, RDM's Fencer's Ring gives you +5 Enspell damage on an attack as long as your HP is <76% and your TP *following the attack* is <100. If you're 2 hits away from reaching 100 TP, and your Joyeuse gets a double attack, your first hit will have the +5 Enspell damage but your second hit will not.)
#15 Oct 14 2009 at 5:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aluus wrote:
Souji wrote:
Magoroku (where you're at now) Soboro
Koryukagemitsu Soboro
Amakura / Daihannya (Daihannya is better, but for its price and abundance, the Amakura is a very close second) Soboro
Zanbato +1 Soboro
Kazaridaichi Soboro
Hagun/Soboro


If you can tell me how to pull that one off...

Anyway, regarding getting a Soboro think a pick-up group would work?

Sorry, mistook the "AF GK Level" to mean AF armor, not AF weapon, for some reason. Would be impressive to pull off though...

As for the pickup, it'll work if they had decent stunning and healing... you'd probably want a slightly bigger group and 2-3 BLU and 2-3 BLM or DRKs. I specify so many because a pickup usually is going to be of worse quality with a few duds in the skill department. If you have access to the zone, you should take every chance you can to get it in my opinion. Pickups, ls parties, try to form your own, etc. I personally put SAM on hold till I got one.


On to the next person:
TarowynXI wrote:
Probably noone cares, but would like to point out the original analysis doesn't take into account zanshin proc as soboro essentially has a 70% chance of not being able to proc zanshin. With capped acc, it's probably not a big deal anyways but you can't always guarantee capped acc pre merits.
Zanshin is a worthless stat that gets better the more you suck and is most effective at 50% acc(where the amount of times it'll go off vs the amount of times those same procs won't miss are at the highest cumulative amount(or so I've heard...)). Whether or not Soboro affects it is the least of any concern you should have.
TarowynXI wrote:
As for the soboro/regular GK thing, I dunno how big a deal it is nowadays considering half the time you'll probably level sync to colis and end up using a polearm anyways. In other cases, depends on the mob really. Even though people talk about how TP doesn't matter because a mob dies in 30 seconds, realistically, not every single xp party's gonna be moving at merit pace, and the extra TP you're feeding the mob can make a difference. All depends on the party/camp really.
This is true enough, but also depends on your mindset, I personally refused to go to parties lower than 60 after I hit 60, simply because I had only leveled SAM for the Soboro SAM/DRG experience in the first place. Took longer of course. If you are level syncing, just keep a polearm for 37 and one for 55 and 60s until 70 or 75.

As for the TP feeding deal, as a SAM I hardly ever went up against enemies where the TP moves were too horrible to melee on. Basically, why bother ask melees to come to it? I had varied camps, but the only enemies 60+ I went up against were Colibri, Imps, Colibri, Crawlers, Colibri, and a few Colibri. Some people may brave the fomors from Dvucca Isle also, which are great exp with the right group.
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#16 Oct 14 2009 at 6:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:
I'm not sure why multiple checks would even be necessary (nor do I see how it would make a difference if it did) because all the hits, and therefore all the TP bestowed, are essentially calculated all at once. My brain might just be oozing atm though; if someone could clarify what this would mean...

I know that there is some sort of distinction that can be made in the middle of a multi-hit attack, but I don't know if that applies to mob TP checks, and like I said, I'm not sure how it would ever matter. (For instance, RDM's Fencer's Ring gives you +5 Enspell damage on an attack as long as your HP is <76% and your TP *following the attack* is <100. If you're 2 hits away from reaching 100 TP, and your Joyeuse gets a double attack, your first hit will have the +5 Enspell damage but your second hit will not.)

I forget what the exact % is, but say for instance above 25% hp, a mob has a 50% chance of wsing any time it has over 100% tp. If every hit could possibly cause it to tp then a 2-hit round would cause a 75% chance of tping, a 3 hit round would cause a 87.5% chance of tping, etc... Maybe it really is nothing, I have always felt that when soloing with soboro, mobs toss a lot more ws's even above 25% hp but that's more a feeling than anything.
#17 Oct 14 2009 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Souji wrote:
On to the next person:
TarowynXI wrote:
Probably noone cares, but would like to point out the original analysis doesn't take into account zanshin proc as soboro essentially has a 70% chance of not being able to proc zanshin. With capped acc, it's probably not a big deal anyways but you can't always guarantee capped acc pre merits.
Zanshin is a worthless stat that gets better the more you suck and is most effective at 50% acc(where the amount of times it'll go off vs the amount of times those same procs won't miss are at the highest cumulative amount(or so I've heard...)). Whether or not Soboro affects it is the least of any concern you should have.
TarowynXI wrote:
As for the soboro/regular GK thing, I dunno how big a deal it is nowadays considering half the time you'll probably level sync to colis and end up using a polearm anyways. In other cases, depends on the mob really. Even though people talk about how TP doesn't matter because a mob dies in 30 seconds, realistically, not every single xp party's gonna be moving at merit pace, and the extra TP you're feeding the mob can make a difference. All depends on the party/camp really.
This is true enough, but also depends on your mindset, I personally refused to go to parties lower than 60 after I hit 60, simply because I had only leveled SAM for the Soboro SAM/DRG experience in the first place. Took longer of course. If you are level syncing, just keep a polearm for 37 and one for 55 and 60s until 70 or 75.

As for the TP feeding deal, as a SAM I hardly ever went up against enemies where the TP moves were too horrible to melee on. Basically, why bother ask melees to come to it? I had varied camps, but the only enemies 60+ I went up against were Colibri, Imps, Colibri, Crawlers, Colibri, and a few Colibri. Some people may brave the fomors from Dvucca Isle also, which are great exp with the right group.

Try reading up on Zanshin some more, it's a lot more effective than most people give it credit for (40%ish proc rate, huge acc boost on zanshin hits). Not sure where you're getting the 50% number from, but one thing to keep in mind, zanshin is always beneficial, even at capped acc it will still provide a small boost (equivalent of 1.9% acc).

I guess if it's your whole reason for playing SAM then that's fine for you lol. But at the same time you're letting your personal preference color your advice/recommendations. After all, the OP didn't sound like he really wanted to go to the trouble of getting a Soboro, but with everyone pushing it he seems to have resigned himself to getting one when chances are he won't be using it much at all unless he makes an effort to use it like you did.

As for the TP feeding, looking at the mobs you fought well, colibri aside since I'd say polearm on them, imps, TP feeding isn't dangerous neccesarily but it can affect the party negatively by slowing down kills and what not. Regular crawlers or eruca? Regular crawlers is whatever, but Eruca are like, dude I did not like sucking 800 dmg breaths to the face when the mob tps at 90% life.

Edited, Oct 14th 2009 8:25pm by TarowynXI
#18 Oct 14 2009 at 6:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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TP feeding doesn't matter. you're just one party member; if you hit twice as much and live, you should. if the tank can't live through 1 out of 3-4 melees hitting twice as much, the tank and/or healer suck. as for the whole check thing, having a MNK or a THF doesn't suddenly set off a barrage of TP moves on tanks (nor does having a NIN instead of a PLD tank), so obviously soboro won't either.

at 50, the damage increase of soboro over all competitors (except polearms vs birds) is giant. if you choose not to do it for any purportedly principled reason, you don't know what the **** you're doing. also, zanshin is, has always been, and shall always be irrelevant.

Edited, Oct 14th 2009 8:26pm by milich
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#19 Oct 14 2009 at 6:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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TarowynXI wrote:
As for the TP feeding, looking at the mobs you fought well, colibri aside since I'd say polearm on them, imps, TP feeding isn't dangerous neccesarily but it can affect the party negatively by slowing down kills and what not. Regular crawlers or eruca? Regular crawlers is whatever, but Eruca are like, dude I did not like sucking 800 dmg breaths to the face when the mob tps at 90% life.
As pahn mentioned, you often play with players who hit more often than even a Soboro SAM. I meant Eruca. A few times we did get an early 800+ tp move, but I was also partying with a THF, another SAM, etc, and occasionally fireday or more unpredictably fire weather would appear. At that point it doesn't matter, they have tp right away anyway(funny watching them try a tp move as soon as you pull agro them).

Even Eruca aren't worth worrying about, as the only danger time is really at high hp, and Soboro at that level is a weapon that drops it's hp faster than any other. Monsters generally wait on wsing in the higher hp ranges too, but usually kick off one early anyway, then wait for a while after. The TP fed didn't really matter. I've also tanked them often while leveling NIN, with a THF in party too, and fought them while leveling THF. In none of those cases were we causing too many tp moves to handle.

Edited, Oct 14th 2009 8:33pm by Souji
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#20 Oct 14 2009 at 6:59 PM Rating: Decent
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milich wrote:
TP feeding doesn't matter. you're just one party member; if you hit twice as much and live, you should. if the tank can't live through 1 out of 3-4 melees hitting twice as much, the tank and/or healer suck. as for the whole check thing, having a MNK or a THF doesn't suddenly set off a barrage of TP moves on tanks (nor does having a NIN instead of a PLD tank), so obviously soboro won't either.

at 50, the damage increase of soboro over all competitors (except polearms vs birds) is giant. if you choose not to do it for any purportedly principled reason, you don't know what the **** you're doing. also, zanshin is, has always been, and shall always be irrelevant.

Edited, Oct 14th 2009 8:26pm by milich

Yeah, after I wrote the check thing I thought about dual wield/H2H jobs some more and the logic there seemed kinda funny. There's always a possiblity that multi hit is treated differently than dual wield and H2H but it's probably not very likely, hehe. It was mainly based off observations from soloing but it could just be the difference in speed of getting the mob to 100% TP. That aside, pretty much all the jobs you mentioned above do have subtle blow (THF subbed most likely) so if the check thing were in place, they would simply set off tp moves more often without actually generating as much TP as soboro. The multi check thing probably doesn't exist though after I thought about it more anyways so I think we can just ignore it.

I do wanna say though, that in xp parties, mobs aren't really gaining tp as fast as people think. It's not merits where everyone has a bunch of haste, at least one march, guaranteed haste spells. You probably won't have a brd, not much access to haste and I'll say 50% of DD's getting haste from a healer. And it's not always about dmg, crabs will def up more (and no matter what, there's the casting time of dispel not even taking into account rdm/brd can be doing other stuff), imps will amnesia more, etc... It's not just about keeping people healed up, it can slow down the party in other ways.

I dunno about at 50 either, at 50 the dot should in theory be about 19% more than a koryukagemitsu (40x2=80 vs 67, correct me if I'm wrong) but you don't have access to the super boosted 3 WS's yet so you can't really improve the dmg as well but just stacking on str making the base dmg on WS's more important. Jinpu also has the elemental dmg bonus which is based on the base physical dmg if I'm not mistaken. Soboro will probably pull out better in the long run but it's not really the huge gap you make it out to be. And of course, poelarms -> flyers anyways. I would personally say Soboro really starts to shine more at 60 when you get yuki.

And zanshin is not irrelevant, it used to be trash but it's quite useful after they upgraded it, you can reference one of my posts above.

Edited, Oct 14th 2009 9:00pm by TarowynXI
#21 Oct 14 2009 at 7:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Souji wrote:
TarowynXI wrote:
As for the TP feeding, looking at the mobs you fought well, colibri aside since I'd say polearm on them, imps, TP feeding isn't dangerous neccesarily but it can affect the party negatively by slowing down kills and what not. Regular crawlers or eruca? Regular crawlers is whatever, but Eruca are like, dude I did not like sucking 800 dmg breaths to the face when the mob tps at 90% life.
As pahn mentioned, you often play with players who hit more often than even a Soboro SAM. I meant Eruca. A few times we did get an early 800+ tp move, but I was also partying with a THF, another SAM, etc, and occasionally fireday or more unpredictably fire weather would appear. At that point it doesn't matter, they have tp right away anyway(funny watching them try a tp move as soon as you pull agro them).

Even Eruca aren't worth worrying about, as the only danger time is really at high hp, and Soboro at that level is a weapon that drops it's hp faster than any other. Monsters generally wait on wsing in the higher hp ranges too, but usually kick off one early anyway, then wait for a while after. The TP fed didn't really matter. I've also tanked them often while leveling NIN, with a THF in party too, and fought them while leveling THF. In none of those cases were we causing too many tp moves to handle.

Edited, Oct 14th 2009 8:33pm by Souji

Oh man, fire weather, bad memories going through there on pld and nin, lol.

Yeah, I addressed above why after thinking about it more, I'm not so sure about the check thing so not gonna repeat myself here.

I guess I look at it like, yeah you do more dmg but it can also cause stress on the other members of the party for what may or may not be significant gains. Like I mentioned above, pre super haste at 75, mobs don't really get TP THAT fast. Just by looking at a mob below 25%, it's not like it does constant back to back tp moves all the time. It happens sometimes but there's still gaps in between. One thing about Soboro, even though overall, you're giving around double tp, the most dangerous thing is actually the triple hit rounds since you're essentially giving it something like half of a ws right there. Nothing may come of it but it can also lead to back to back incinerates at high life if you're unlucky.

Soboro is certaily a useful weapon to have, and the math seems to point out to it being very good DDwise but to say the extra TP has no effect is just being naive. On the avg, it doesn't seem all that bad but can just cause a few more accidents like above. Whether that matters or not will really depends on each party.

And I've noticed I seem to really jump from topic to topic a lot, sorry if that makes things confusing to read, lol.
#22 Oct 14 2009 at 10:28 PM Rating: Good
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I forget what the exact % is, but say for instance above 25% hp, a mob has a 50% chance of wsing any time it has over 100% tp. If every hit could possibly cause it to tp then a 2-hit round would cause a 75% chance of tping, a 3 hit round would cause a 87.5% chance of tping, etc... Maybe it really is nothing, I have always felt that when soloing with soboro, mobs toss a lot more ws's even above 25% hp but that's more a feeling than anything.


Oh, you're talking about if the mob hasn't gone below 25% HP yet.

Then yes, I do believe that the chance for the mob to WS would most likely be checked for each hit. Unless the hits end up taking it to 300 TP, in which case the chance would be 100%.
#23 Oct 15 2009 at 9:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Anyway, regarding getting a Soboro think a pick-up group would work?
That's how I got mine and several of my friends. Make sure that people who come know that you might be there awhile and aren't going to ditch on you before you head out; get a PLD/WAR tank; minimalize the number of DD (just PLD+THF is best); maximalize the number of BLMs/WHMs/RDMs; and farm tar between ??? spawns for best results.

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Eruca
The solution is not gimp your dmg it's to quit being dumb and fighting Eruca, there are much easier things to level off of that have worthless tp moves.
Tarowyn wrote:
at 50 the dot should in theory be about 19% more than a koryukagemitsu (40x2=80 vs 67, correct me if I'm wrong)
you forgot fSTR;

for fSTR of 8 (max 12 for soboro, 15 for koryu):
(40+8)x2= 96 vs (67+8)=74 -> ~1.297x

If you want to account for acc/zanshin/hit distribution I showed how in that "past 60 soboro?" thread linked earlier. I just don't care enough. Given how Soboro stacks up to Hagun, it's pretty silly to even consider using another GK at 50.
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#24 Oct 15 2009 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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lolZanshin

poor Zanshin... Always being laughed at, except when it procs.......
#25 Oct 15 2009 at 1:29 PM Rating: Good
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sbrubles wrote:
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lolZanshin

poor Zanshin... Always being laughed at, except when it procs.......
I laugh at it then too, kind of a "where have you been the past 50-200 swings", or at least I would if I could tell the difference between it and miss+DAs.
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#26 Oct 15 2009 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
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"where have you been the past 50-200 swings"

haha this brought back so many memories of the game XD
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