Rose StrapFollow

Hey everyone - Sorry if this has been mentioned before but I haven't seen anything.

I have enough allied notes to get a rose strap but don't have the medal ( i now have the very 1st medal).

What would you recommend I do to get this? Is there a guide or something to help you rank up fast? Also how long do you think it would take?

Thank you so much!

1)It depends on what gear you're using for sTP
2)It's going to take a long time unfortunately (80+ days?)

I'm Currently leveling Samurai and looking into future gear.

I was told Pole Grip would out-perform Rose Strap and I was better off using Hachiman feet and a Pole Grip instead of Fuma Sune-ate and a Rose strap for 6hit.

Could anyone shine some light on this?
What am I missing? Is 3% haste really not better than 2% DA?

OK thanks for clearing that up, that was my general thought. My haste build will consist of Swift Belt, Dusk hands, Turban, and Fuma Sune-ate.

My 6-hit Gear will be Rajas, Rose, Chiv chain, Brutal.

I think it can be safely understood in any stat-based discussion on this forum that when you talk about a stat being good, it obviously doesn't apply if you are capped and adding more is therefore useless.

Haste has increasing gains and DA doesn't?

50%->53%

Haste = 1.064x dmg
DA = 1.020x dmg

Each 1% of Haste is worth more, the mosre you can stack via ther various means.

Each 1% of DA becomes worse the higher you get.




You macro haste out during WS for stats that increase DMG more than DA.


Lets see how many melee hits a Hagun gets off in 10mins.

@ 20% Haste

(450*0.8) /60 = 6

600/6 = 100Hits in a 10min period.


Now swap the 20% Haste for 20% DA

450/60 = 7.5

(600/7.5)*1.2 = 96Hits in a 10min period


So now we're buffed up, and hitting away @ 70% Haste

(450*0.3) / 60 = 2.25

600/2.25 = 266Hits in a 10min period

Say it were possible, instead of 70% Haste, we had 100% DA

450/60 = 7.5

(600/7.5)*2 = 160Hits in a 10min period

So at 70% Haste, your still way way ahead then somebody with 100% Double Attack (if the 100% DA thingy was possible). Infact, 70% Haste would still give you more hits than having 100% Triple Attack


DA looks good on paper (like +crit% does) but in reality, 1% DA is about as good as 5att for most things. (gotta lol at those ppl who puts DA+2 Crit+3% on their Mirkes, I feel so sorry for them when I see it)

Hm, I will have to look it over more thoroughly later. I'm leaving for the weekend. After a quick glance, I actually don't agree with the argument presented to bsphil's interpretation. And I definitely don't see how DA gets worse as it stacks.

However, one thing that does occur to me, and if I'm right, I'll feel silly for this not having occurred to me until now... does 50% Haste cut your delay in half? If so, it's pretty clear that 50% Haste doubles your swings, whereas 50% DA only increases them by 50%.

And I hope I'm wrong about that because god that's obvious. But then no one bothered to bring it up in the many discussions prior, so it wouldn't speak too highly for you guys either :p

Another way to think about it is that DA can't proc on itself. If you have 10% DA and add 2% more DA, that extra 2% only works on 90% of your attack rounds (the ones that didn't previously proc DA already). So, DA+2% won't always equal melee DoT+2%.

---------------------------

As for haste, the increases are shown when you're able to land an extra hit per fight. For short fights, it may seem like you get no returns from small amounts of haste (say, haste+3% total), but you do. The one thing you can't account for is the randomness of the mob: pDIF from the melees, engage times, when mobs use TP attacks that could require action of some sort (to delay someone's attack rounds), etc.

Essentially, think of the lifespan of the mob as a totally random number within a general range for the quality of your party. With 3% haste you would expect that most of the time you would see no increase in damage for the discrete case (a single mob), but every once in a while you will see a large increase in damage when you squeeze an extra hit in due to a small percentage of haste. Over time against mobs of random life spans those 0% increases balanced against those much larger increases will even out to a little over a 3% increase in damage.



Edited, Sep 26th 2009 2:42am by bsphil

I understand math just fine-- I'm not a mathematician, but I'm working on my PhD. Don't think I would get very far without having a working knowledge of math.

In any case, Double Attack offers a linear bonus, and it's needlessly misleading to say that it offers less of a bonus as you stack it. That holds true for any stat that applies linearly, but the bonuses are still linear.

+2%=+2% attacks
+4%=+4% attacks
etc.

I see what you're doing, but that does not support the statement that DA becomes less effective as it stacks. Each +DA is just as effective as the last. The effect you're demonstrating is the result of including what amount to other bonuses. It would be like saying that each % interest on your $100 savings account gave less than the last % of interest. It's true that the percentage growth would be less, but that's a completely meaningless explanation that has no relevance and only confuses people. Each additional % would still give you one ENTIRE dollar more, just like it still gives you an ENTIRE swing more in this case. There are no diminishing returns. Actually, as I've pointed out in the past, DA increases it by more than most people initially calculate because they don't factor in all three increases (melee frequency increase, WS frequency increase, WS damage increase).

But the simple explanation is that a point of Haste, in a perfect scenario, is twice as good as DA in melee and WS frequency increase. It loses a little luster because it lacks the WS damage increase and because the effect has the potential to be negligible, particularly the less you have, but not generally enough to be overshadowed.

In any case, there's no point in offering such an unsubstantial explanation for Haste>DA when it's so much more telling to point out that 50% Haste doubles swings (a 100% increase) where 50% DA only increases them by 50%.

Although it's possible, albeit unlikely, that I'm missing something else.

WS frequency correlates directly to WS damage.

Anyway, yes, it does have the potential to be negligible, but it also has (when you have very low haste amounts) the chance to still make a very large difference. In the end, those probabilities average out, and 3% total haste still gives you roughly a bit more than a 3% DoT increase.

You can't think about haste (or really any DD stats) in the discrete sense. It's damage over time.

I suppose, but so does nearly every other stat in the game by that logic. That's why it's a meaningless and potentially confusing statement to make.



Point taken. However, you would do the same for DA in cases where it's not the optimal WS gear.



Well I didn't bother now that it's already established that Haste>DA, but I did read the arguments about Haste before, and they did not refute that Haste has diminished value in low amounts.



Yes, but that's not the point of distinguishing between WS frequency and raw WS damage. DA increases WS frequency as well as the actual WS damage when it procs.



I'm aware-- that's why Haste has limitations in low amounts. The shorter the battle and the more DD is coming from outside sources, the less profound the effect, because Haste needs time to work, whereas linearly applied stats do not.

East Ron Bunnies, in which case, DA would be just as useless as haste.

Look at it like this,

If you have 100% DA, your gurenteed 1 extra attack each time you swing your gkt.

If you could have 99% Haste, you will do 100swings of the GKT in the time it takes the other person with 100% DA to 2 swings.

99.9% Haste = 1000 swings
99.99% Haste = 10,000 swings
99.999% Haste = 100,000 swings
100% Haste = causes your processor to burn out and the Universe to implode



When 10% interest is applied to my £100 in the bank, giving me £10 extra, I can spend that £10 on multiple items over an infinite amount of time until each penny in that £10 has been spent.

DA just allows you to use it once, and once only. If you double attacked in the first 1%, then the x% of DA you have after that does nothing for you until your next att round. Haste is there in every single thing you do, the only difference is, its not as noticeable as what a DA or Triple Attack looks like.

With the addition of DNC now, its possible for a SAM/DRG to reach 80% Haste with the right gear, spells, songs & Haste Samba. When your hitting away at 70% Haste, and pop Hasso, the speed difference is amazing. Going from 70% Haste to 80% Haste has just sped your already fast attack speed up by another 50%. So where that additional 10% Hasso has just sped you up by 50%, adding 10% DA onto 70% DA can do absolutely nothing at all.




Edited, Sep 27th 2009 4:35pm by Sandmasterr

You're wrong

Go read the damn link to figure out why, I'm not reexplaining it when there is already an extremely well done analysis of it.

If you have low acc compared to the rest of your stats, you benefit more from increasing acc than other stuff, if you have near cap atk you gain low benefit from even fairly large amounts of atk compared to other stats. All improvements from +X stat B is relative to the amounts of stat B you already have compared to other factors you could increase. I don't care if it doesn't fit with your preexisting mental schema, your "2%DA = 2%dmg" fallacy has already given me plenty of evidence to show why it's important to define it this way and how it improves the accuracy, understanding, and clarity of my analysis.

Edited, Sep 27th 2009 2:41pm by shintasama

I assume you wanted me to look at your charts and the explanation by RealityBytes? Ok, I read it, and it does not refute what I've said. In low amounts, Haste% can have no effect throughout the course of a battle, and may not give the full % to DOT. An important point is raised about swing order, but that's something I've already discussed in the past in reference to meaningful killing blows.

Put very simply, all other stats being the same, during some battles, a GKT with a delay of 437 will not increase the speed of the kill any more than using a 450 GKT. Is this ever true? Of course it is, especially in parties with low delay weapons, DOT, etc. And what's the difference between 450 and 437? Why, it's 3% Haste.



Except that I haven't said that, because 2%DA =! 2%dmg. All I'm saying is that DA is a linear stat, and that each point of DA increases the absolute amount of damage that you do by the exact same amount as every other point of DA that you add. After you factor it into the total damage equation, DA does come very close to adding a 1:1 bonus because it operates mostly on top of the total damage equation rather than being factored into it.



Sigh. They don't. Not anymore than 1% interest offers you less of $1 the more you add it. Yes, the second dollar you get from a 2% increase is less of a % bonus than the first dollar you get from a 1 or 2% increase, which is a completely worthless analysis, because 1% still equals $1 no matter how much you add. It does not get less valuable the more you add. Linear. Dictionary. But I'm done talking about that.

God you're being dense, please tell me you're trolling, the Kachi I knew wasn't nearly this stupid.


/facepalm Lets say our total dmg was just the product of two factors "A" and "B" aka:

A*B = total dmg

for a certain player A=100 and B=400, and he's trying to decide between a piece of gear that raises A by 1 or B by 5

101*400 = 40400
100*405 = 40500

so he should use the piece that raises B.
HOWEVER, when he is getting buffs his "B" stat is 600

101*600 = 60600
100*605 = 60500

So in this circumstance he should use that piece that raises A. The second item still raises "B" by 5 in either case, but the RELATIVE INCREASE to his total damage (which is all we actually give a damn about at the end of the day) is lower when he has a higher "B" base. It matters.




Now go actaully read it so you're not just wasting my time.

Edited, Sep 27th 2009 6:02pm by shintasama

I've read all that and it's still wrong. I've already explained why and frankly don't even care enough to explain any further.

All that nice stuff you quoted is people either A) missing the point B) interpreting game mechanics incorrectly. Impressive mental gymnastics, but doesn't quite stick the landing. But I'm not going to break it down piece by piece. You're just going to have to take my word for it that I understand everything that was said, and it's incorrect. Then you can take some time to process why that is. Or not. I really just don't care, because even if you realize that I'm right, then what? People will stop using small amounts of Haste? I can almost taste how little that matters to me.

And besides that, I don't know for sure that you're not more concerned with convincing myself/others that you're right than you are with actually being right. If it's the former, it's a complete waste of my time. If the latter, I might be willing to discuss this in PMs, but not if you're going to keep repeating the same concepts over and over. No matter how often or loudly, a fallacy is a fallacy.

And please try not to think too badly of me for brushing you off on this. I'm actually making an effort to be civil about this out of respect for camaraderie.

This is sure a long discussion over naming a term.

Did I read right earlier that this Kachi person is working on his/her phd? If that is true, its obviously nothing to do with Mathematics.

I think Alla's regulars have given you the benefit of the doubt because of your large post count, but its getting silly now.

I don't think there is any other way for ppl to explain itother than whats in this thread and Shinta's links.

Your either trolling, lying, or retarded. This is some of ffxi's most basic math.

So basic it's not even publicly explainable?

To: Kachi
1. Double Attack+ and Haste+ do not work the same way
Double Attack+ increases the chances of a second hit by a given percentage
Example with 50% Double Attack you will attack 150 times instead of the
100 times you would have attacked without it
Haste reduces the weapon delay and magic recast
Example with 50% Haste and a 509 delay weapon you will effectively be
attacking with a weapon that has a delay of 254.5. Because you are
attacking twice as fast you will get 200 hits in the time it would take
you to get 100 without the haste.
2. Haste provides more beneficial effects than double attack
Double Attack only affects how often you attack
Haste affects how quickly you attack AND how soon you can recast spells
What this means is that even if Double Attack and Haste were equal
Haste would still be more beneficial or at least equally beneficial
3. Haste+ is consistent. Double Attack+ is not.
With both Haste+ and Double Attack+ you are guaranteed to get a certain
percentage bonus over time. However Haste+ is guaranteed to be active all
the time while Double Attack+ is guaranteed to active a certain percent
of the time. For Double Attack+ there is no guarantee of WHEN it
will activate or WHICH attacks it will activate on, only that over time
it will activate a certain percent of the time
4. Because of how they work Double Attack+ is a linear increase and Haste is a
more of an exponential increase
In closing let us assume an extreme case of 80% Haste versus 80% Double Attack
as that is the effective cap on Haste.
With Double Attack+ 80% you would attack 180% of the norm.
In the time you would normally attack 100 times you would attack 180
times. This is true regardless of which weapon.
With Haste+ 80% and again using the 509 delay weapon as an example you would be
attacking as if you had a weapon with a delay of 101.8. You will be
attacking 5 times as often.
In the time you would normally attack 100 times you would attack 500
times. This is true regardless of which weapon.
In summation it is usually best to get Haste+ if possible and Double Attack+
only where you can not get Haste+ (Assuming only Haste+ and Double Attack+ as
possibilities)

Any questions class?

You can call it a cop out, but then you don't really care enough to take it to PMs, do you? It's hardly fair to accuse me of copping out just because I won't play a game I don't even want to play on someone else's home field while being totally outnumbered.

My strong suspicion from early in this discussion has been that you are too concerned with public appearance for my arguments to hold any sway, save perhaps if I fight tooth and nail. Your insistence on maintaining the discussion in public and efforts to bait me only serve to reinforce my suspicion that you mainly just want to be publicly right.

Nothing against you-- it's a perfectly typical motivational orientation. It's just not one I'm interested in accommodating. I find this meta-analysis of the discussion far more entertaining anyway.

Want to show it it a slightly different way, as well as try to get you out of your line of thinking.








If there was a grapg showing DA's gains, it would be a straight line graph with 0-1% on the y-axis showing what each 1% of DA stacked does for your overall dmg, and 1-100% on the x-axis representing DA.

The line will be a straight line starting at 1% y-axis, 1% x-axis, moving down to 0.5% y-axis, and across to 100%DA x-axis

That seems pretty linear to me, its a straight line, but going down so you are correct in saying DA's gains are linear.



Haste looks like this (go to post #8):

Graph of Haste (scroll down to #8 post)


Your problem line of thinking, is that 3% DA has to be better than 3% Haste because you looked at it like this:

With 3% DA, in 1min, with a 450delay GKT, you'll average 8.24attacks every min, or an average of nearly 1DA every 4mins.

With 3% Haste, in 1 min, with a 450delay GKT, you'll average 8.25 hits a min, so you'd need precisely 4 min's to get that extra hit in from 3% Haste. (but at least with DA theres a chance that extra hit could come sooner or w/e)

Once you can get your head around that your still actually attacking faster meaning faster WS's, you'll see how 3% Haste is better. Its not about waiting for that extra hit or w/e to actually arrive because your faster attacking will lead to the monster KO-ing faster anyway.








Edited, Sep 29th 2009 9:45am by Sandmasterr

That's why I retired that discussion. At best it's a matter of perspective in mathematical concepts, and at worst it's a semantics debate. I haven't been arguing your calculations, just your methodology, which in itself is pretty pointless as long as your conclusion is the same, but I still think you'll confuse people on matters of technical accuracy.



I did read it, multiple times in fact, to make sure that I understood it. I know it's much easier to believe that I'm lying than that I actually found flaws in the methods and just don't want to play math teacher, but well, there you have it. We are in fact different people. If I tackle the accepted thinking in this venue, then suddenly I own it, and of course I'll be expected to fight tooth and nail. Can you blame me for not wanting to? Honestly, I'd prefer if you just think I'm a trolling liar.

Teaching math is difficult enough just to deal with the students who don't understand, nevermind if you add a few vocal ones who disagree with the one doing the teaching. (which is in no way to compare the variance in our math abilities to that of a teacher and student) Tutoring, on the other hand, is much more manageable. Still not my idea of recreation, though.

But the funniest thing happened to me a moment ago, and while this is entirely irrelevant, I have to share it. I came home to my apartment from one of my statistics classes just now to find a note from maintenance. They were doing regular air filter replacements and smoke detector checks-- I received the notice that they would be doing this last night.

So the guy came while I was at class and left me an apartment entry notice. I guess while he was checking the smoke detector in my room, he saw that I have a large box of Pokemon cards that I've been lugging around for a decade (my family used to play; actually won a trip to California for worlds). I've been meaning to get rid of them for an eternity, but dealing with eBay seems like a pain in the ass, and now that our family has new little ones, I think I may just give the cards to them someday. ANYWAY, yeah, there are a lot of Pokemon cards in my closet by the smoke detector.

So when I look at the note he left, I see that he's checked two boxes. The first:

Normal stuff. The second:

Which is supposed to say things like "after parts arrive" "next week" etc. Instead it says in his handwriting...



So I don't know. I just don't know. What does this mean? Did the maintenance guy STEAL some of my Pokemon cards, and even leave a confession? Or I guess he means to return them, so technically he's borrowing them, but why is my maintenance guy borrowing my Pokemon cards? Was he short a Pikachu? And there are really so many cards, I have no way of knowing if he actually took any.

He didn't leave his name on the note either, though I guess I could probably find out if I called the office. But what would I say? "Um, excuse me, I think one of the maintenance guys borrowed some of my Pokemon cards. Could you... ask around?"

Or another theory, maybe he was having a pun. "Pokemon-- return!"

Or could he need to come back because my Pokemon cards present some kind of health and safety violation? Are they moldy? Is maintenance going to come back to confiscate them?

I laughed for a good five minutes, both out of amusement as well as bemusement. Yep, both kinds of musement.

It reminds me of the time when firefighters stole my rug.

Hey wait a sec here!

That's not spelled right!