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#1 Sep 11 2009 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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Hey everyone - Sorry if this has been mentioned before but I haven't seen anything.

I have enough allied notes to get a rose strap but don't have the medal ( i now have the very 1st medal).

What would you recommend I do to get this? Is there a guide or something to help you rank up fast? Also how long do you think it would take?

Thank you so much!
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#2 Sep 11 2009 at 10:46 AM Rating: Decent
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can only get an evaluation once every 5 days. count the number of evals you would need, multiply by 5 and that will give you your time frame. as for getting the actual next rank you simply need to do campaign.
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#3 Sep 11 2009 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
1)It depends on what gear you're using for sTP
2)It's going to take a long time unfortunately (80+ days?)
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#4 Sep 12 2009 at 1:04 PM Rating: Decent
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i got it because i can get a 6 hit from it due to not having rajas
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#5 Sep 21 2009 at 8:07 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm Currently leveling Samurai and looking into future gear.

I was told Pole Grip would out-perform Rose Strap and I was better off using Hachiman feet and a Pole Grip instead of Fuma Sune-ate and a Rose strap for 6hit.

Could anyone shine some light on this?
What am I missing? Is 3% haste really not better than 2% DA?
#6 Sep 21 2009 at 8:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I'm Currently leveling Samurai and looking into future gear.

I was told Pole Grip would out-perform Rose Strap and I was better off using Hachiman feet and a Pole Grip instead of Fuma Sune-ate and a Rose strap for 6hit.

Could anyone shine some light on this?
What am I missing? Is 3% haste really not better than 2% DA?


Whoever told you think was completely wrong. 3% haste > 2%DA, unless your haste build is atrocious. The only negative is you'll have to find an extra sTP point outside of rose strap, brutal earring, rajas and 5/5 sTP.

Currently I use an ecphoria ring, but plan to get a white tathlum sometime soon.
#7 Sep 21 2009 at 8:26 PM Rating: Decent
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OK thanks for clearing that up, that was my general thought. My haste build will consist of Swift Belt, Dusk hands, Turban, and Fuma Sune-ate.

My 6-hit Gear will be Rajas, Rose, Chiv chain, Brutal.
#8 Sep 23 2009 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
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Whoever told you think was completely wrong. 3% haste > 2%DA, unless your haste build is atrocious.


Correction: Unless you are at haste cap already.

In fact, 3% haste > 3% DA, and can even be > 4% DA.
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#9 Sep 23 2009 at 6:48 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Correction: Unless you are at haste cap already.

I think it can be safely understood in any stat-based discussion on this forum that when you talk about a stat being good, it obviously doesn't apply if you are capped and adding more is therefore useless.
#10 Sep 24 2009 at 7:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
In fact, 3% haste > 3% DA, and can even be > 4% DA.


Granted, I have been gone for a year, but last I checked, it was the other way around. Would someone care to explain?
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

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#11 Sep 24 2009 at 8:30 AM Rating: Excellent
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
In fact, 3% haste > 3% DA, and can even be > 4% DA.


Granted, I have been gone for a year, but last I checked, it was the other way around. Would someone care to explain?
Haste has increasing gains and DA doesn't?

50%->53%

Haste = 1.064x dmg
DA = 1.020x dmg
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#12 Sep 24 2009 at 9:20 AM Rating: Default
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<I don't understand.>

DA has a linear effect on melee damage, yes. So 2% DA= +2% melee damage, right? Stop me if I get something wrong. Plus DA increases WS frequency and WS damage.

Whereas haste does not increase WS damage, only frequency. Further, haste has increasing gains, but they're increasing from submaximal bonuses. i.e., 2% Haste doesn't give you a +2% increase to WS frequency or melee damage, but could give anywhere from +0%-2%. Adding more Haste increases the odds that it will be closer to 2%. So that's an increasing gain, but only allows it to catch up to 2% DA, not surpass it.

So either I'm missing something critical here in the fundamental qualities of +Haste%/+DA (or some other game mechanic), or you guys have lost all perspective of applied math since I've been gone.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#13 Sep 24 2009 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
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Each 1% of Haste is worth more, the mosre you can stack via ther various means.

Each 1% of DA becomes worse the higher you get.


Quote:
Stop me if I get something wrong. Plus DA increases WS frequency and WS damage.


You macro haste out during WS for stats that increase DMG more than DA.


Lets see how many melee hits a Hagun gets off in 10mins.

@ 20% Haste

(450*0.8) /60 = 6

600/6 = 100Hits in a 10min period.


Now swap the 20% Haste for 20% DA

450/60 = 7.5

(600/7.5)*1.2 = 96Hits in a 10min period


So now we're buffed up, and hitting away @ 70% Haste


(450*0.3) / 60 = 2.25

600/2.25 = 266Hits in a 10min period

Say it were possible, instead of 70% Haste, we had 100% DA


450/60 = 7.5

(600/7.5)*2 = 160Hits in a 10min period

So at 70% Haste, your still way way ahead then somebody with 100% Double Attack (if the 100% DA thingy was possible). Infact, 70% Haste would still give you more hits than having 100% Triple Attack


DA looks good on paper (like +crit% does) but in reality, 1% DA is about as good as 5att for most things. (gotta lol at those ppl who puts DA+2 Crit+3% on their Mirkes, I feel so sorry for them when I see it)
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#14 Sep 24 2009 at 10:52 AM Rating: Decent
lol+crit


Kachi, were you here for this thread?

sand wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Stop me if I get something wrong. Plus DA increases WS frequency and WS damage.
You macro haste out during WS for stats that increase DMG more than DA.
Yup, DA is kinda crappy for raising avg SAM WS dmg anyways, you're almost always better off adding STR.
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Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#15 Sep 24 2009 at 4:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Hm, I will have to look it over more thoroughly later. I'm leaving for the weekend. After a quick glance, I actually don't agree with the argument presented to bsphil's interpretation. And I definitely don't see how DA gets worse as it stacks.

However, one thing that does occur to me, and if I'm right, I'll feel silly for this not having occurred to me until now... does 50% Haste cut your delay in half? If so, it's pretty clear that 50% Haste doubles your swings, whereas 50% DA only increases them by 50%.

And I hope I'm wrong about that because god that's obvious. But then no one bothered to bring it up in the many discussions prior, so it wouldn't speak too highly for you guys either :p
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#16 Sep 24 2009 at 7:18 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
does 50% Haste cut your delay in half? If so, it's pretty clear that 50% Haste doubles your swings, whereas 50% DA only increases them by 50%.
yuuuuup


as for DA:
100rounds(ignoring acc b/c it cancels):

0%DA->2%DA = 102 attacks / 100 attacks = 1.0200x
2%DA->4%DA = 104 attacks / 102 attacks = 1.0196x
4%DA->6%DA = 106 attacks / 104 attacks = 1.0192x
....
52%DA->54%DA = 154 attacks / 152 attacks = 1.0132x

haste:
0%haste->2%haste = 1.0204x
2%haste->4%haste = 1.0208x
4%haste->6%haste = 1.0223x
...
52%haste->54%haste = 1.0435x

Edited, Sep 24th 2009 11:24pm by shintasama
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#17 Sep 25 2009 at 9:33 AM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Another way to think about it is that DA can't proc on itself. If you have 10% DA and add 2% more DA, that extra 2% only works on 90% of your attack rounds (the ones that didn't previously proc DA already). So, DA+2% won't always equal melee DoT+2%.

---------------------------

As for haste, the increases are shown when you're able to land an extra hit per fight. For short fights, it may seem like you get no returns from small amounts of haste (say, haste+3% total), but you do. The one thing you can't account for is the randomness of the mob: pDIF from the melees, engage times, when mobs use TP attacks that could require action of some sort (to delay someone's attack rounds), etc.

Essentially, think of the lifespan of the mob as a totally random number within a general range for the quality of your party. With 3% haste you would expect that most of the time you would see no increase in damage for the discrete case (a single mob), but every once in a while you will see a large increase in damage when you squeeze an extra hit in due to a small percentage of haste. Over time against mobs of random life spans those 0% increases balanced against those much larger increases will even out to a little over a 3% increase in damage.



Edited, Sep 26th 2009 2:42am by bsphil
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#18 Sep 26 2009 at 5:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
0%DA->2%DA = 102 attacks / 100 attacks = 1.0200x
2%DA->4%DA = 104 attacks / 102 attacks = 1.0196x
4%DA->6%DA = 106 attacks / 104 attacks = 1.0192x
....
52%DA->54%DA = 154 attacks / 152 attacks = 1.0132x

haste:
0%haste->2%haste = 1.0204x
2%haste->4%haste = 1.0208x
4%haste->6%haste = 1.0223x


To Kachi - if you can't follow math (and in no offensive way, from your posts it seems that you can't or struggle with it) Shinta's explanation could come accross confusing.

To reword Shinta's end results, the % is how much the addition improves your overall dmg.

0%DA->2%DA = 102 attacks / 100 attacks = 2%
2%DA->4%DA = 104 attacks / 102 attacks = 1.96%
4%DA->6%DA = 106 attacks / 104 attacks = 1.92%

As you can see, each 2% double attack you add is worth less, the more you stack.

haste:
0%haste->2%haste = 2.04%
2%haste->4%haste = 2.08%
4%haste->6%haste = 2.23%

As you can see, each 2% of Haste is worth more than the 2% prior to it (opposite of DA)



50%haste->52%haste = 4.16%

50%DA -> 52%DA = 1.33%
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#19 Sep 26 2009 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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I understand math just fine-- I'm not a mathematician, but I'm working on my PhD. Don't think I would get very far without having a working knowledge of math.

In any case, Double Attack offers a linear bonus, and it's needlessly misleading to say that it offers less of a bonus as you stack it. That holds true for any stat that applies linearly, but the bonuses are still linear.

+2%=+2% attacks
+4%=+4% attacks
etc.

I see what you're doing, but that does not support the statement that DA becomes less effective as it stacks. Each +DA is just as effective as the last. The effect you're demonstrating is the result of including what amount to other bonuses. It would be like saying that each % interest on your $100 savings account gave less than the last % of interest. It's true that the percentage growth would be less, but that's a completely meaningless explanation that has no relevance and only confuses people. Each additional % would still give you one ENTIRE dollar more, just like it still gives you an ENTIRE swing more in this case. There are no diminishing returns. Actually, as I've pointed out in the past, DA increases it by more than most people initially calculate because they don't factor in all three increases (melee frequency increase, WS frequency increase, WS damage increase).

But the simple explanation is that a point of Haste, in a perfect scenario, is twice as good as DA in melee and WS frequency increase. It loses a little luster because it lacks the WS damage increase and because the effect has the potential to be negligible, particularly the less you have, but not generally enough to be overshadowed.

In any case, there's no point in offering such an unsubstantial explanation for Haste>DA when it's so much more telling to point out that 50% Haste doubles swings (a 100% increase) where 50% DA only increases them by 50%.

Although it's possible, albeit unlikely, that I'm missing something else.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#20 Sep 26 2009 at 3:38 PM Rating: Decent
Look at it another way, 1$ is 1$, it buys you a sandwich at McD's but not much else, but is 1$'s relative worth higher to a bum or a millionaire? In terms of relative gain, DA gets worse the more you get.
bsphil wrote:
Another way to think about it is that DA can't proc on itself. If you have 10% DA and add 2% more DA, that extra 2% only works on 90% of your attack rounds (the ones that didn't previously proc DA already). So, DA+2% won't always equal melee DoT+2%.
for clarity:
w/ 50% base DA, 100 rounds, 1dmg/hit, 100%acc:
base: 100*1.50 = 150 dmg
adding 2% more DA:
150*(152/150)= 150*1.01333= 152 dmg

NOT:
150*1.02= 153 dmg, as your system of +1%DA=+1%dmg would falsely predict
Kachi wrote:
It loses a little luster because it lacks the WS damage increase
Did you not pay attention to:
Sand wrote:
You macro haste out during WS for stats that increase DMG more than DA.
?

EDIT: side note- W/ hagun/gorget YGK's fTP is 1.975, but DA'd hits always have an fTP of 1. In addition, it's likely that DA'd hits don't get the atk and acc bonuses that YGK enjoy. Thus, instead of 1% DA "doubling" your WS dmg 1% of the time, it increases it by significantly less than .5% overall (and that's why Osode > hachiman(+1) > Askar for WS).

Kachi wrote:
because the effect has the potential to be negligible, particularly the less you have
and I guess you didn't read bsphil's post/the thread I linked either?

Edited, Sep 26th 2009 7:58pm by shintasama
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#21 Sep 26 2009 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Kachi wrote:
[Haste] loses a little luster because it lacks the WS damage increase and because the effect has the potential to be negligible, particularly the less you have, but not generally enough to be overshadowed.
WS frequency correlates directly to WS damage.

Anyway, yes, it does have the potential to be negligible, but it also has (when you have very low haste amounts) the chance to still make a very large difference. In the end, those probabilities average out, and 3% total haste still gives you roughly a bit more than a 3% DoT increase.

You can't think about haste (or really any DD stats) in the discrete sense. It's damage over time.
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#22 Sep 26 2009 at 7:09 PM Rating: Good
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As far as getting rank ups goes, someone on BG posted that to figure out how much allied notes you have to have won from campaign to rank up, that it was 1k allied notes per RL day since you got your current metal. So if you rank up every 5 days, you would need to have earned 5k allied notes. If you waited 10 days after you rank up, you would need 10k allied notes instead.

Not sure myself that it's totally correct, but when I tried it, it worked exactly like he said for me.
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#23 Sep 26 2009 at 7:12 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
In terms of relative gain, DA gets worse the more you get.


I suppose, but so does nearly every other stat in the game by that logic. That's why it's a meaningless and potentially confusing statement to make.

Quote:
You macro haste out during WS for stats that increase DMG more than DA.


Point taken. However, you would do the same for DA in cases where it's not the optimal WS gear.

Quote:
and I guess you didn't read bsphil's post/the thread I linked either?


Well I didn't bother now that it's already established that Haste>DA, but I did read the arguments about Haste before, and they did not refute that Haste has diminished value in low amounts.

Quote:
WS frequency correlates directly to WS damage.


Yes, but that's not the point of distinguishing between WS frequency and raw WS damage. DA increases WS frequency as well as the actual WS damage when it procs.

Quote:
It's damage over time.


I'm aware-- that's why Haste has limitations in low amounts. The shorter the battle and the more DD is coming from outside sources, the less profound the effect, because Haste needs time to work, whereas linearly applied stats do not.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#24 Sep 27 2009 at 7:36 AM Rating: Decent
Kachi wrote:
I suppose, but so does nearly every other stat in the game by that logic. That's why it's a meaningless and potentially confusing statement to make.
You're right, nearly every other stat does work that way, and that's why you need to think about every stat from that perspective. It's not "misleading" or "confusing" (unlike considering 2%DA=2%dmg/wsfreq), its the most accurate frame of reference for comparing gear/stats and is required to make valid comparisons.
Kachi wrote:
I'm aware-- that's why Haste has limitations in low amounts. The shorter the battle and the more DD is coming from outside sources, the less profound the effect, because Haste needs time to work, whereas linearly applied stats do not.
wtf is this crap about, as I pointed out in that link you're not reading, haste "works" as soon as you're getting to your second swing. What are you fighting that dies before that point?
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Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#25 Sep 27 2009 at 8:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
wtf is this crap about, as I pointed out in that link you're not reading, haste "works" as soon as you're getting to your second swing. What are you fighting that dies before that point?


East Ron Bunnies, in which case, DA would be just as useless as haste.

Look at it like this,

If you have 100% DA, your gurenteed 1 extra attack each time you swing your gkt.

If you could have 99% Haste, you will do 100swings of the GKT in the time it takes the other person with 100% DA to 2 swings.

99.9% Haste = 1000 swings
99.99% Haste = 10,000 swings
99.999% Haste = 100,000 swings
100% Haste = causes your processor to burn out and the Universe to implode

Quote:
I see what you're doing, but that does not support the statement that DA becomes less effective as it stacks. Each +DA is just as effective as the last. The effect you're demonstrating is the result of including what amount to other bonuses. It would be like saying that each % interest on your $100 savings account gave less than the last % of interest. It's true that the percentage growth would be less, but that's a completely meaningless explanation that has no relevance and only confuses people. Each additional % would still give you one ENTIRE dollar more, just like it still gives you an ENTIRE swing more in this case. There are no diminishing returns.


When 10% interest is applied to my £100 in the bank, giving me £10 extra, I can spend that £10 on multiple items over an infinite amount of time until each penny in that £10 has been spent.

DA just allows you to use it once, and once only. If you double attacked in the first 1%, then the x% of DA you have after that does nothing for you until your next att round. Haste is there in every single thing you do, the only difference is, its not as noticeable as what a DA or Triple Attack looks like.

With the addition of DNC now, its possible for a SAM/DRG to reach 80% Haste with the right gear, spells, songs & Haste Samba. When your hitting away at 70% Haste, and pop Hasso, the speed difference is amazing. Going from 70% Haste to 80% Haste has just sped your already fast attack speed up by another 50%. So where that additional 10% Hasso has just sped you up by 50%, adding 10% DA onto 70% DA can do absolutely nothing at all.




Edited, Sep 27th 2009 4:35pm by Sandmasterr
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#26 Sep 27 2009 at 10:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You're right, nearly every other stat does work that way, and that's why you need to think about every stat from that perspective. It's not "misleading" or "confusing" (unlike considering 2%DA=2%dmg/wsfreq), its the most accurate frame of reference for comparing gear/stats and is required to make valid comparisons.


No, I really don't think so. Ask any banker, accountant, math teacher... it's a completely unnecessary observation that really doesn't better anyone's understanding. There are stats and mathematical situations where stats actually give diminishing returns (not "relative" diminishing returns). When you claim that linear stats give diminishing returns, you undermine the situations where stats actually do give diminishing returns. What will you call those? All you're really doing is shifting the language to the left, where it is less accurate and requires additional interpretation. Haste= exponential bonus. DA= linear bonus.


Quote:
wtf is this crap about, as I pointed out in that link you're not reading, haste "works" as soon as you're getting to your second swing. What are you fighting that dies before that point?


I didn't need to read a link to realize something that obvious. However, even if it "works" it provides -no bonus- unless you gain additional swings or score a meaningful killing blow. There are many conceivable battles where only getting a faster second, third, fourth and fifth blow will not improve your DOT for the battle or the speed of the battle at all. At all. More often, it will improve it some, but not fully. e.g., a 15% bonus will only yield a 7% performance bonus.

Quote:
When 10% interest is applied to my £100 in the bank, giving me £10 extra, I can spend that £10 on multiple items over an infinite amount of time until each penny in that £10 has been spent.


That's completely missing the point of the analogy. I'm talking about a single interest period.

And I don't know why you're still trying to explain to me why Haste is better than DA. I've already explained why for myself.

But I'm not going to discuss this any further. It's a semantics debate at this point, which is one of the most useless kinds of debate. If you disagree, I'm prepared to leave it at that.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#27 Sep 27 2009 at 10:40 AM Rating: Decent
Kachi wrote:
I didn't need to read a link to realize something that obvious. However, even if it "works" it provides -no bonus- unless you gain additional swings or score a meaningful killing blow. There are many conceivable battles where only getting a faster second, third, fourth and fifth blow will not improve your DOT for the battle or the speed of the battle at all. At all. More often, it will improve it some, but not fully. e.g., a 15% bonus will only yield a 7% performance bonus.
You're wrong

Go read the damn link to figure out why, I'm not reexplaining it when there is already an extremely well done analysis of it.

Kachi wrote:
it's a completely unnecessary observation that really doesn't better anyone's understanding.
If you have low acc compared to the rest of your stats, you benefit more from increasing acc than other stuff, if you have near cap atk you gain low benefit from even fairly large amounts of atk compared to other stats. All improvements from +X stat B is relative to the amounts of stat B you already have compared to other factors you could increase. I don't care if it doesn't fit with your preexisting mental schema, your "2%DA = 2%dmg" fallacy has already given me plenty of evidence to show why it's important to define it this way and how it improves the accuracy, understanding, and clarity of my analysis.

Edited, Sep 27th 2009 2:41pm by shintasama
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#28 Sep 27 2009 at 11:38 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
In terms of relative gain, DA gets worse the more you get.


I suppose, but so does nearly every other stat in the game by that logic. That's why it's a meaningless and potentially confusing statement to make.
You're right, almost every stat DOES gradually get worse (increases at a decreasing rate) the more you stack it. There are only a couple exceptions: Haste and Dual Wield+.

The best results for DoT are gained from balancing different stats.

Sidenote: What's the largest possible area of a rectangle given static total dimensions?

1 x 5 = 5
2 x 4 = 8
3 x 3 = 9
4 x 2 = 8
5 x 1 = 5

Same logic applies to FFXI. Balance each stat.



Edited, Sep 27th 2009 3:02pm by bsphil
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#29 Sep 27 2009 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Go read the damn link to figure out why, I'm not reexplaining it when there is already an extremely well done analysis of it.


I assume you wanted me to look at your charts and the explanation by RealityBytes? Ok, I read it, and it does not refute what I've said. In low amounts, Haste% can have no effect throughout the course of a battle, and may not give the full % to DOT. An important point is raised about swing order, but that's something I've already discussed in the past in reference to meaningful killing blows.

Put very simply, all other stats being the same, during some battles, a GKT with a delay of 437 will not increase the speed of the kill any more than using a 450 GKT. Is this ever true? Of course it is, especially in parties with low delay weapons, DOT, etc. And what's the difference between 450 and 437? Why, it's 3% Haste.

Quote:
2%DA = 2%dmg


Except that I haven't said that, because 2%DA =! 2%dmg. All I'm saying is that DA is a linear stat, and that each point of DA increases the absolute amount of damage that you do by the exact same amount as every other point of DA that you add. After you factor it into the total damage equation, DA does come very close to adding a 1:1 bonus because it operates mostly on top of the total damage equation rather than being factored into it.

Quote:
You're right, almost every stat DOES gradually get worse (increases at a decreasing rate) the more you stack it.


Sigh. They don't. Not anymore than 1% interest offers you less of $1 the more you add it. Yes, the second dollar you get from a 2% increase is less of a % bonus than the first dollar you get from a 1 or 2% increase, which is a completely worthless analysis, because 1% still equals $1 no matter how much you add. It does not get less valuable the more you add. Linear. Dictionary. But I'm done talking about that.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#30 Sep 27 2009 at 1:50 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
You're right, almost every stat DOES gradually get worse (increases at a decreasing rate) the more you stack it.
Sigh. They don't.
Here's why they do:

For sake of simplicity, say you have a 20% hit rate and are hitting for 1 damage per swing. Over the course of say, an hour of constant swinging with no haste and a 450 delay weapon, that's:

450 / 60 = 7.5 sec/swing
3600 / 7.5 = 480 swings/hour
480 * 0.20 = 96 landed swings/hour (or, 96 damage/hour, since we're saying a swing is always exactly 1 damage)

Raise the hitrate by 1% (acc+2), what's the relative increase to your overall DoT?

450 / 60 = 7.5 sec/swing
3600 / 7.5 = 480 swings/hour
480 * 0.21 = 100.8 landed swings/hour

100.8 / 96 = 1.05 = 5% increase to DoT

-----------------------

Now say we start with 90% hitrate:

450 / 60 = 7.5 sec/swing
3600 / 7.5 = 480 swings/hour
480 * 0.90 = 432 landed swings/hour

Raise the hitrate by 1% (acc+2) again:

450 / 60 = 7.5 sec/swing
3600 / 7.5 = 480 swings/hour
480 * 0.91 = 436.8 landed swings/hour

436.8 / 432 = 1.0111... = 1.11...% increase to DoT





Why does this matter?

It matters because of opportunity cost. Every slot you fill with accuracy, is a slot that could potentially be filled with DA+, attack+, haste+, etc. You're sacrificing the ability to raise your DoT by another method.

How do I know which stat to pick then?

You compare their relative impacts on your DoT. Adding 1% hitrate to a 90% hitrate is *NOT* the same as adding 1% hitrate to a 20% hitrate. You may very well be able to get better than accuracy+2 in that particular slot at 90% hitrate, but you probably wouldn't be able to do better at 20%.

Going back to the rectangle example, you have the dimensions 1 x 5 for a rectangle, and can add 1 to either the length or the width. Which provides the largest AREA?

1 x 6 = 6
2 x 5 = 10

So one IS superior to the other in the relative sense, even though you're adding a constant.



Kachi wrote:
Put very simply, all other stats being the same, during some battles, a GKT with a delay of 437 will not increase the speed of the kill any more than using a 450 GKT. Is this ever true? Of course it is, especially in parties with low delay weapons, DOT, etc. And what's the difference between 450 and 437? Why, it's 3% Haste.


Delay reduction =/= haste.

Edited, Sep 27th 2009 4:58pm by bsphil
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#31 Sep 27 2009 at 1:59 PM Rating: Decent
God you're being dense, please tell me you're trolling, the Kachi I knew wasn't nearly this stupid.

Quote:
which is a completely worthless analysis,

/facepalm Lets say our total dmg was just the product of two factors "A" and "B" aka:

A*B = total dmg

for a certain player A=100 and B=400, and he's trying to decide between a piece of gear that raises A by 1 or B by 5

101*400 = 40400
100*405 = 40500

so he should use the piece that raises B.
HOWEVER, when he is getting buffs his "B" stat is 600

101*600 = 60600
100*605 = 60500

So in this circumstance he should use that piece that raises A. The second item still raises "B" by 5 in either case, but the RELATIVE INCREASE to his total damage (which is all we actually give a damn about at the end of the day) is lower when he has a higher "B" base. It matters.
Kachi wrote:
Ok, I read it, and it does not refute what I've said.

starfox wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Now that I think about it (since I'm taking forever to post this), I suppose you could see an increase over time from the extra second faster kills. Let's say you also need 10 seconds to get to a new mob. Over the course of an hour without the haste, you can kill 51 mobs. With the haste and the second faster kills, you're able to kill one extra mob in the hour time frame, giving every DD a DoT bonus by being able to damage another mob within the hour.

No, you will see a 1% increase in your DoT and a slight decrease in the other's DoT because once every 13 mobs you got a hit on a mob that was supposed to go to someone else. Again, mob health are set (with the slight exception of cure/mob regen), you are all competing for the slice of that mob health pie when you compare damage%. You don't get a consistent n seconds off every mob, you don't need to in order to gain benefit from haste.

Now that may sound self-centered, that haste is basically a tool to rob DoT% from others. But if you think about it, accuracy and attacks work the same way too. Just because you get a 1% increase in accuracy doesn't mean the mob always dies sooner. It just takes away some hits from others that you wouldn't've gotten had you wiffed, therefore helping your DoT and hurting "others". You don't get a decrease in kill time on most mobs, just once every few mobs where your hit counted to kill off the mob faster than it would have otherwise.

Starfox wrote:
The part where you are wrong is that you are only thinking in whole swings per mob while in FFXI that never happens unless you kill only one mob. If you kill 2 mobs, there will be a 50% chance that you end up with a fractional swing/mob. If you kill 3, 66%. Basically you are basing your argument on a 1/n chance that you will end up with a whole number of swings when you kill n mobs. In reality, you do end up with a (n-1)/n chance of having x swings that causes you to get a fraction when divided by n mobs.

Starfox wrote:
And fundamentally, that is all it takes to "gain" extra DoT. You don't need an guaranteed extra attack round, you just need to overtake someone in the mob hit order, in order to gain some advantage in terms of DoT.

Milich wrote:
the short summary answer is, "no, it's just like 90% chance to hit neatly yields a 90% hit rate over time. the randomness + the sample size iron out what the messiness does to stop X% rounds/min from being X% DoT. it is weird that the messiness actually assures the ultimate neatness, but there you go, it does. and not 'abracadabra, there you go it does,' but rather 'the messiness gets rid of the weird bias-bringing factors like killshots--eg if 3% haste actor always or never got the killshot--and therefore the attacks/min increase ends up equaling DoT% increase.
Now go actaully read it so you're not just wasting my time.

Edited, Sep 27th 2009 6:02pm by shintasama
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
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#32 Sep 27 2009 at 2:24 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Further, another example:

What's better, 1% increase in hitrate, or 1% increase in DoT?

According to your logic, they are equivalent, as they both technically add 1 attack per 100. They are not. The hitrate increase will always be more potent. DA+1% is at best equal to +1% DoT, hitrate+1% is at worst equal to slightly more than +1% DoT.
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#33 Sep 27 2009 at 10:07 PM Rating: Default
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I've read all that and it's still wrong. I've already explained why and frankly don't even care enough to explain any further.

All that nice stuff you quoted is people either A) missing the point B) interpreting game mechanics incorrectly. Impressive mental gymnastics, but doesn't quite stick the landing. But I'm not going to break it down piece by piece. You're just going to have to take my word for it that I understand everything that was said, and it's incorrect. Then you can take some time to process why that is. Or not. I really just don't care, because even if you realize that I'm right, then what? People will stop using small amounts of Haste? I can almost taste how little that matters to me.

And besides that, I don't know for sure that you're not more concerned with convincing myself/others that you're right than you are with actually being right. If it's the former, it's a complete waste of my time. If the latter, I might be willing to discuss this in PMs, but not if you're going to keep repeating the same concepts over and over. No matter how often or loudly, a fallacy is a fallacy.

And please try not to think too badly of me for brushing you off on this. I'm actually making an effort to be civil about this out of respect for camaraderie.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#34 Sep 27 2009 at 11:38 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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21,739 posts
Kachi wrote:
I've read all that and it's still wrong. I've already explained why and frankly don't even care enough to explain any further.

All that nice stuff you quoted is people either A) missing the point B) interpreting game mechanics incorrectly. Impressive mental gymnastics, but doesn't quite stick the landing. But I'm not going to break it down piece by piece. You're just going to have to take my word for it that I understand everything that was said, and it's incorrect. Then you can take some time to process why that is. Or not. I really just don't care, because even if you realize that I'm right, then what? People will stop using small amounts of Haste? I can almost taste how little that matters to me.

And besides that, I don't know for sure that you're not more concerned with convincing myself/others that you're right than you are with actually being right. If it's the former, it's a complete waste of my time. If the latter, I might be willing to discuss this in PMs, but not if you're going to keep repeating the same concepts over and over. No matter how often or loudly, a fallacy is a fallacy.

And please try not to think too badly of me for brushing you off on this. I'm actually making an effort to be civil about this out of respect for camaraderie.
That's nice.

Haste still doesn't have diminished returns at low values, for the reasons explained a half dozen times already. You haven't actually explained why it's not true, other than summarizing that you disagree with it and that it doesn't make sense. You've even said it yourself here in an attempt to prove the theory wrong:

Kachi wrote:
Put very simply, all other stats being the same, during some battles, a GKT with a delay of 437 will not increase the speed of the kill any more than using a 450 GKT
Unfortunately, that's exactly the point being made. In some battles, a GKT with 437 delay WILL increase the speed of the kill where a 450 delay GKT wouldn't. If you multiply the relatively low probability of overtaking anyone's attack round due to the lower delay versus the relatively high DoT increase that will yield in a fight, the average expected outcome turns out to be an increase of just over 3%. Already proven in parses of similarly geared DDs on the same job.

Kachi wrote:
It would be like saying that each % interest on your $100 savings account gave less than the last % of interest.
Except for interest, each time you compound, you also compound the interest earned previously, which isn't analogous to something that would happen in FFXI. 5% interest compounded would go 100 -> 105 -> 110.25 -> 115.7625 -> 121.559625 -> etc. That truly is adding 5% each time.

To go 100 -> 105 -> 110 -> 115 -> 120 is NOT adding 5% interest each time. That's adding $5 each time, and that only happens to be 5% the first time you compound. This is not how the world works, but this IS how FFXI works. You seem to have the two confused? 100 -> 105 is a 5% increase, 105 -> 110 is a 4.76% increase, 110 -> 115 is a 4.55% increase, etc.



So yeah if you'd like to really detail why these theories are all wrong, go ahead.



Edited, Sep 28th 2009 2:47am by bsphil
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#35 Sep 28 2009 at 2:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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This is sure a long discussion over naming a term.
#36 Sep 28 2009 at 8:53 AM Rating: Decent
Kachi wrote:
I might be willing to discuss this in PMs
You're completely unwilling to listen our arguments, bring up any of your own (other than "I don't believe you"), or even consider the fact that you're wrong. I fail to see how taking this to PM is supposed to help?
VZX wrote:
This is sure a long discussion over naming a term.
Semantics are semantics, but in this case it's a fairly important semantic choice to make if you want to be able to make valid comparisons between pieces of gear in different situations.
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#37 Sep 28 2009 at 9:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Did I read right earlier that this Kachi person is working on his/her phd? If that is true, its obviously nothing to do with Mathematics.

I think Alla's regulars have given you the benefit of the doubt because of your large post count, but its getting silly now.

I don't think there is any other way for ppl to explain itother than whats in this thread and Shinta's links.

Your either trolling, lying, or retarded. This is some of ffxi's most basic math.
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#38 Sep 28 2009 at 11:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Yes, it is pretty basic, which is why I'm amazed that anyone even came close to something resembling the correct conclusion using such a needlessly convoluted process. But it does explain why there is so much confusion/misconception.

I might be willing to explain it in PM, but I'm not going to attempt to clear it up publicly where I'll no doubt get at least a few people who will continue to argue from ignorance, whether willful or well-meaning. There are just too many of you that do feel some stake in the argument versus myself who does not. Try to understand my position.

Quote:
Did I read right earlier that this Kachi person is working on his/her phd? If that is true, its obviously nothing to do with Mathematics.


fyi, there are very few doctoral programs that have nothing to do with mathematics. Even degrees that you might think have little to do with math (such as art or music) generally have much more than you would think. For my degree, statistics is incredibly relevant. And you won't even get into a doctoral program if you can't perform passably on the math section of the GRE.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#39 Sep 28 2009 at 6:23 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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21,739 posts
So basic it's not even publicly explainable?
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#40 Sep 28 2009 at 7:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Of course it is, but that doesn't mean that I'm up for it. I already crunched the numbers and checked the work to the extent that it interested me and I could be sure that I wasn't misunderstanding something. But it's one thing to explain something to people who are simply asking you for an explanation. It's an entirely different matter to explain something to people who are actively disagreeing with you. I think anyone who has been in this forum or pretty much any forum for a length of time knows what I'm talking about.

Basically I'm busier than I used to be, and if for no reason other than a matter of personal policy, I need to start picking my battles and not getting dragged into every internet disagreement that comes my way. Particularly ones that I'm not even enjoying. And while I'm good at math, I hardly consider it recreation. I don't even have time to watch all the shows that I want to watch, nevermind actually play some damn video games. Proving a mathematics point in a game I barely play a few hours a week is just not up there.

And see, I can barely keep my responses succinct just to say that I'm not going to respond. It'd be ten times worse if I allowed myself to accept the challenge.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#41 Sep 28 2009 at 8:37 PM Rating: Good
dict wrote:
cop out Slang
Verb:
1) to avoid taking responsibility or committing oneself
2) choose not to do something, as out of fear of failing;

Noun:
1) a way or an instance of avoiding responsibility or commitment

Synonyms:
avoid, dodge, abandon, withdraw from, desert, quit, skip, renounce, revoke, renege, skive
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#42 Sep 28 2009 at 8:40 PM Rating: Good
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When Starfox started posting his reasoning behind fractional swings, etc, almost nobody believe what he was saying and ridiculed him. Gradually people came to realize he was right and admit to it, so saying "you know how internet battles go lol" doesn't really cut it. If you aren't willing to post your reasoning behind your disagreement with what everyone else is saying, that's fine. Don't post at all. It's equally useful.
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#43 Sep 28 2009 at 10:04 PM Rating: Decent
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To: Kachi
1. Double Attack+ and Haste+ do not work the same way
Double Attack+ increases the chances of a second hit by a given percentage
Example with 50% Double Attack you will attack 150 times instead of the
100 times you would have attacked without it
Haste reduces the weapon delay and magic recast
Example with 50% Haste and a 509 delay weapon you will effectively be
attacking with a weapon that has a delay of 254.5. Because you are
attacking twice as fast you will get 200 hits in the time it would take
you to get 100 without the haste.
2. Haste provides more beneficial effects than double attack
Double Attack only affects how often you attack
Haste affects how quickly you attack AND how soon you can recast spells
What this means is that even if Double Attack and Haste were equal
Haste would still be more beneficial or at least equally beneficial
3. Haste+ is consistent. Double Attack+ is not.
With both Haste+ and Double Attack+ you are guaranteed to get a certain
percentage bonus over time. However Haste+ is guaranteed to be active all
the time while Double Attack+ is guaranteed to active a certain percent
of the time. For Double Attack+ there is no guarantee of WHEN it
will activate or WHICH attacks it will activate on, only that over time
it will activate a certain percent of the time
4. Because of how they work Double Attack+ is a linear increase and Haste is a
more of an exponential increase
In closing let us assume an extreme case of 80% Haste versus 80% Double Attack
as that is the effective cap on Haste.
With Double Attack+ 80% you would attack 180% of the norm.
In the time you would normally attack 100 times you would attack 180
times. This is true regardless of which weapon.
With Haste+ 80% and again using the 509 delay weapon as an example you would be
attacking as if you had a weapon with a delay of 101.8. You will be
attacking 5 times as often.
In the time you would normally attack 100 times you would attack 500
times. This is true regardless of which weapon.
In summation it is usually best to get Haste+ if possible and Double Attack+
only where you can not get Haste+ (Assuming only Haste+ and Double Attack+ as
possibilities)

Any questions class?
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#44 Sep 28 2009 at 10:15 PM Rating: Decent
kami wrote:
stuff
way to not read his actual arguments
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#45 Sep 28 2009 at 11:14 PM Rating: Default
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You can call it a cop out, but then you don't really care enough to take it to PMs, do you? It's hardly fair to accuse me of copping out just because I won't play a game I don't even want to play on someone else's home field while being totally outnumbered.

My strong suspicion from early in this discussion has been that you are too concerned with public appearance for my arguments to hold any sway, save perhaps if I fight tooth and nail. Your insistence on maintaining the discussion in public and efforts to bait me only serve to reinforce my suspicion that you mainly just want to be publicly right.

Nothing against you-- it's a perfectly typical motivational orientation. It's just not one I'm interested in accommodating. I find this meta-analysis of the discussion far more entertaining anyway.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#46 Sep 29 2009 at 12:08 AM Rating: Decent
You're obviously not going to listen to me either way (you wouldn't even read a pertinent link on the topic, if I didn't have some semblance of respect for you from previous threads I would have just blown you off as a troll and switched to "humiliate mode" instead of actually presenting real arguments this entire time), so my role has been purely for other players knowledge for awhile now, yeah. If I wanted to type out discussions that no one was going to read I could open up notepad.

Sidenote- if I had a position that I knew to be true, I would take on an entire forum tooth and nail to prove it (I recently did it in =6 too!), so I guess we're just different people.

Edited, Sep 29th 2009 4:23am by shintasama
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#47 Sep 29 2009 at 1:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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2,607 posts
Want to show it it a slightly different way, as well as try to get you out of your line of thinking.



Kachi wrote:
DA has a linear effect on melee damage, yes. So 2% DA= +2% melee damage, right? Stop me if I get something wrong. Plus DA increases WS frequency and WS damage.


dictionary wrote:

lin·e·ar (ln-r)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or resembling a line; straight.
2.
a. In, of, describing, described by, or related to a straight line.
b. Having only one dimension.



If there was a grapg showing DA's gains, it would be a straight line graph with 0-1% on the y-axis showing what each 1% of DA stacked does for your overall dmg, and 1-100% on the x-axis representing DA.

The line will be a straight line starting at 1% y-axis, 1% x-axis, moving down to 0.5% y-axis, and across to 100%DA x-axis

That seems pretty linear to me, its a straight line, but going down so you are correct in saying DA's gains are linear.



Haste looks like this (go to post #8):

Graph of Haste (scroll down to #8 post)


Your problem line of thinking, is that 3% DA has to be better than 3% Haste because you looked at it like this:

With 3% DA, in 1min, with a 450delay GKT, you'll average 8.24attacks every min, or an average of nearly 1DA every 4mins.

With 3% Haste, in 1 min, with a 450delay GKT, you'll average 8.25 hits a min, so you'd need precisely 4 min's to get that extra hit in from 3% Haste. (but at least with DA theres a chance that extra hit could come sooner or w/e)


Once you can get your head around that your still actually attacking faster meaning faster WS's, you'll see how 3% Haste is better. Its not about waiting for that extra hit or w/e to actually arrive because your faster attacking will lead to the monster KO-ing faster anyway.








Edited, Sep 29th 2009 9:45am by Sandmasterr
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#48 Sep 29 2009 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
Sand wrote:
That seems pretty linear to me, its a straight line, but going down so you are correct in saying DA's gains are linear.
He's not wrong about being able to plot it linearly when you look at it from a total gain perspective, he's wrong about looking at it from a linear/total gain perspective being useful. We don't actually give a fuck how much dmg your total +DA adds in a vacuum, we care about how much dmg a piece of +DA gear adds relative to how much dmg would be added by increasing a different stat via another piece of gear.

Thinking in terms of total gain:
 
   	total DA gain	Total Haste Gain 
0	1	        1 
1	1.01	        1.01010101 
2	1.02	        1.020408163 
3	1.03	        1.030927835 
4	1.04	        1.041666667 
5	1.05	        1.052631579 
6	1.06	        1.063829787 
7	1.07	        1.075268817 
8	1.08	        1.086956522 
9	1.09	        1.098901099 
10	1.1	        1.111111111 
11	1.11	        1.123595506 
12	1.12	        1.136363636 
13	1.13	        1.149425287 
14	1.14	        1.162790698 
15	1.15	        1.176470588 
16	1.16	        1.19047619 
17	1.17	        1.204819277 
18	1.18	        1.219512195 
19	1.19	        1.234567901 
20	1.2	        1.25

total gain


Thinking in terms of relative gain:
 
	Gain from this 1% DA	Gain from this 1% Haste 
0	1	                1 
1	1.01	                1.01010101 
2	1.00990099	        1.010204082 
3	1.009803922	        1.010309278 
4	1.009708738	        1.010416667 
5	1.009615385	        1.010526316 
6	1.00952381	        1.010638298 
7	1.009433962	        1.010752688 
8	1.009345794	        1.010869565 
9	1.009259259	        1.010989011 
10	1.009174312	        1.011111111 
11	1.009090909	        1.011235955 
12	1.009009009	        1.011363636 
13	1.008928571	        1.011494253 
14	1.008849558	        1.011627907 
15	1.00877193	        1.011764706 
16	1.008695652	        1.011904762 
17	1.00862069	        1.012048193 
18	1.008547009	        1.012195122 
19	1.008474576	        1.012345679 
20	1.008403361	        1.0125

Relative gain

Hard to see due to scale, but both are non-linear in the relative gain case. DA's best fit linear line has an r^2 of .989 when plotting 0->50%

Edited, Sep 29th 2009 12:43pm by shintasama
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#49 Sep 29 2009 at 1:32 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
That's why I retired that discussion. At best it's a matter of perspective in mathematical concepts, and at worst it's a semantics debate. I haven't been arguing your calculations, just your methodology, which in itself is pretty pointless as long as your conclusion is the same, but I still think you'll confuse people on matters of technical accuracy.

Quote:
you wouldn't even read a pertinent link on the topic,


I did read it, multiple times in fact, to make sure that I understood it. I know it's much easier to believe that I'm lying than that I actually found flaws in the methods and just don't want to play math teacher, but well, there you have it. We are in fact different people. If I tackle the accepted thinking in this venue, then suddenly I own it, and of course I'll be expected to fight tooth and nail. Can you blame me for not wanting to? Honestly, I'd prefer if you just think I'm a trolling liar.

Teaching math is difficult enough just to deal with the students who don't understand, nevermind if you add a few vocal ones who disagree with the one doing the teaching. (which is in no way to compare the variance in our math abilities to that of a teacher and student) Tutoring, on the other hand, is much more manageable. Still not my idea of recreation, though.

But the funniest thing happened to me a moment ago, and while this is entirely irrelevant, I have to share it. I came home to my apartment from one of my statistics classes just now to find a note from maintenance. They were doing regular air filter replacements and smoke detector checks-- I received the notice that they would be doing this last night.

So the guy came while I was at class and left me an apartment entry notice. I guess while he was checking the smoke detector in my room, he saw that I have a large box of Pokemon cards that I've been lugging around for a decade (my family used to play; actually won a trip to California for worlds). I've been meaning to get rid of them for an eternity, but dealing with eBay seems like a pain in the ass, and now that our family has new little ones, I think I may just give the cards to them someday. ANYWAY, yeah, there are a lot of Pokemon cards in my closet by the smoke detector.

So when I look at the note he left, I see that he's checked two boxes. The first:
Quote:

I was in your apartment today to:
[handwritten] replace a/c filter, check smoke detector

Normal stuff. The second:

Quote:
Will need to return:
Which is supposed to say things like "after parts arrive" "next week" etc. Instead it says in his handwriting...

Quote:
Pokemon


So I don't know. I just don't know. What does this mean? Did the maintenance guy STEAL some of my Pokemon cards, and even leave a confession? Or I guess he means to return them, so technically he's borrowing them, but why is my maintenance guy borrowing my Pokemon cards? Was he short a Pikachu? And there are really so many cards, I have no way of knowing if he actually took any.

He didn't leave his name on the note either, though I guess I could probably find out if I called the office. But what would I say? "Um, excuse me, I think one of the maintenance guys borrowed some of my Pokemon cards. Could you... ask around?"

Or another theory, maybe he was having a pun. "Pokemon-- return!"

Or could he need to come back because my Pokemon cards present some kind of health and safety violation? Are they moldy? Is maintenance going to come back to confiscate them?

I laughed for a good five minutes, both out of amusement as well as bemusement. Yep, both kinds of musement.

It reminds me of the time when firefighters stole my rug.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#50 Sep 29 2009 at 1:47 PM Rating: Good
Kachi wrote:
I did read it, multiple times in fact, to make sure that I understood it. I know it's much easier to believe that I'm lying than that I actually found flaws in the methods and just don't want to play math teacher, but well, there you have it. We are in fact different people. If I tackle the accepted thinking in this venue, then suddenly I own it, and of course I'll be expected to fight tooth and nail. Can you blame me for not wanting to? Honestly, I'd prefer if you just think I'm a trolling liar.
Forgive me for not finding "I have a proof that my side is right, I'm just not going to tell you" to be a credible argument.

By this point you already "own" that side of the discussion, and you obviously don't have issues wasting your time perpetuating this thread, so why not drop a hint at the "flaw" you found? Why bother to keep posting without advancing the knowledge of the forum if you aren't trolling?

now something irrelevant:
EmoPan


Edited, Sep 29th 2009 5:52pm by shintasama
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#51 Sep 29 2009 at 5:17 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
Professor shintasama wrote:
Kachi wrote:
I
s

t
h
e

g
o
a
l

t
o

b
a
i
t

m

e

t
i
ll you

g
e
t

B
o
a
r
d
?

Hey wait a sec here!

That's not spelled right!
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
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