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#1 Sep 11 2009 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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Hey everyone - Sorry if this has been mentioned before but I haven't seen anything.

I have enough allied notes to get a rose strap but don't have the medal ( i now have the very 1st medal).

What would you recommend I do to get this? Is there a guide or something to help you rank up fast? Also how long do you think it would take?

Thank you so much!
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#2 Sep 11 2009 at 10:46 AM Rating: Decent
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can only get an evaluation once every 5 days. count the number of evals you would need, multiply by 5 and that will give you your time frame. as for getting the actual next rank you simply need to do campaign.
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#3 Sep 11 2009 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
1)It depends on what gear you're using for sTP
2)It's going to take a long time unfortunately (80+ days?)
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#4 Sep 12 2009 at 1:04 PM Rating: Decent
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i got it because i can get a 6 hit from it due to not having rajas
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#5 Sep 21 2009 at 8:07 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm Currently leveling Samurai and looking into future gear.

I was told Pole Grip would out-perform Rose Strap and I was better off using Hachiman feet and a Pole Grip instead of Fuma Sune-ate and a Rose strap for 6hit.

Could anyone shine some light on this?
What am I missing? Is 3% haste really not better than 2% DA?
#6 Sep 21 2009 at 8:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I'm Currently leveling Samurai and looking into future gear.

I was told Pole Grip would out-perform Rose Strap and I was better off using Hachiman feet and a Pole Grip instead of Fuma Sune-ate and a Rose strap for 6hit.

Could anyone shine some light on this?
What am I missing? Is 3% haste really not better than 2% DA?


Whoever told you think was completely wrong. 3% haste > 2%DA, unless your haste build is atrocious. The only negative is you'll have to find an extra sTP point outside of rose strap, brutal earring, rajas and 5/5 sTP.

Currently I use an ecphoria ring, but plan to get a white tathlum sometime soon.
#7 Sep 21 2009 at 8:26 PM Rating: Decent
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OK thanks for clearing that up, that was my general thought. My haste build will consist of Swift Belt, Dusk hands, Turban, and Fuma Sune-ate.

My 6-hit Gear will be Rajas, Rose, Chiv chain, Brutal.
#8 Sep 23 2009 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
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Whoever told you think was completely wrong. 3% haste > 2%DA, unless your haste build is atrocious.


Correction: Unless you are at haste cap already.

In fact, 3% haste > 3% DA, and can even be > 4% DA.
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#9 Sep 23 2009 at 6:48 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Correction: Unless you are at haste cap already.

I think it can be safely understood in any stat-based discussion on this forum that when you talk about a stat being good, it obviously doesn't apply if you are capped and adding more is therefore useless.
#10 Sep 24 2009 at 7:44 AM Rating: Decent
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In fact, 3% haste > 3% DA, and can even be > 4% DA.


Granted, I have been gone for a year, but last I checked, it was the other way around. Would someone care to explain?
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#11 Sep 24 2009 at 8:30 AM Rating: Excellent
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
In fact, 3% haste > 3% DA, and can even be > 4% DA.


Granted, I have been gone for a year, but last I checked, it was the other way around. Would someone care to explain?
Haste has increasing gains and DA doesn't?

50%->53%

Haste = 1.064x dmg
DA = 1.020x dmg
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#12 Sep 24 2009 at 9:20 AM Rating: Default
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<I don't understand.>

DA has a linear effect on melee damage, yes. So 2% DA= +2% melee damage, right? Stop me if I get something wrong. Plus DA increases WS frequency and WS damage.

Whereas haste does not increase WS damage, only frequency. Further, haste has increasing gains, but they're increasing from submaximal bonuses. i.e., 2% Haste doesn't give you a +2% increase to WS frequency or melee damage, but could give anywhere from +0%-2%. Adding more Haste increases the odds that it will be closer to 2%. So that's an increasing gain, but only allows it to catch up to 2% DA, not surpass it.

So either I'm missing something critical here in the fundamental qualities of +Haste%/+DA (or some other game mechanic), or you guys have lost all perspective of applied math since I've been gone.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#13 Sep 24 2009 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
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Each 1% of Haste is worth more, the mosre you can stack via ther various means.

Each 1% of DA becomes worse the higher you get.


Quote:
Stop me if I get something wrong. Plus DA increases WS frequency and WS damage.


You macro haste out during WS for stats that increase DMG more than DA.


Lets see how many melee hits a Hagun gets off in 10mins.

@ 20% Haste

(450*0.8) /60 = 6

600/6 = 100Hits in a 10min period.


Now swap the 20% Haste for 20% DA

450/60 = 7.5

(600/7.5)*1.2 = 96Hits in a 10min period


So now we're buffed up, and hitting away @ 70% Haste


(450*0.3) / 60 = 2.25

600/2.25 = 266Hits in a 10min period

Say it were possible, instead of 70% Haste, we had 100% DA


450/60 = 7.5

(600/7.5)*2 = 160Hits in a 10min period

So at 70% Haste, your still way way ahead then somebody with 100% Double Attack (if the 100% DA thingy was possible). Infact, 70% Haste would still give you more hits than having 100% Triple Attack


DA looks good on paper (like +crit% does) but in reality, 1% DA is about as good as 5att for most things. (gotta lol at those ppl who puts DA+2 Crit+3% on their Mirkes, I feel so sorry for them when I see it)
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#14 Sep 24 2009 at 10:52 AM Rating: Decent
lol+crit


Kachi, were you here for this thread?

sand wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Stop me if I get something wrong. Plus DA increases WS frequency and WS damage.
You macro haste out during WS for stats that increase DMG more than DA.
Yup, DA is kinda crappy for raising avg SAM WS dmg anyways, you're almost always better off adding STR.
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Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#15 Sep 24 2009 at 4:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Hm, I will have to look it over more thoroughly later. I'm leaving for the weekend. After a quick glance, I actually don't agree with the argument presented to bsphil's interpretation. And I definitely don't see how DA gets worse as it stacks.

However, one thing that does occur to me, and if I'm right, I'll feel silly for this not having occurred to me until now... does 50% Haste cut your delay in half? If so, it's pretty clear that 50% Haste doubles your swings, whereas 50% DA only increases them by 50%.

And I hope I'm wrong about that because god that's obvious. But then no one bothered to bring it up in the many discussions prior, so it wouldn't speak too highly for you guys either :p
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#16 Sep 24 2009 at 7:18 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
does 50% Haste cut your delay in half? If so, it's pretty clear that 50% Haste doubles your swings, whereas 50% DA only increases them by 50%.
yuuuuup


as for DA:
100rounds(ignoring acc b/c it cancels):

0%DA->2%DA = 102 attacks / 100 attacks = 1.0200x
2%DA->4%DA = 104 attacks / 102 attacks = 1.0196x
4%DA->6%DA = 106 attacks / 104 attacks = 1.0192x
....
52%DA->54%DA = 154 attacks / 152 attacks = 1.0132x

haste:
0%haste->2%haste = 1.0204x
2%haste->4%haste = 1.0208x
4%haste->6%haste = 1.0223x
...
52%haste->54%haste = 1.0435x

Edited, Sep 24th 2009 11:24pm by shintasama
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#17 Sep 25 2009 at 9:33 AM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Another way to think about it is that DA can't proc on itself. If you have 10% DA and add 2% more DA, that extra 2% only works on 90% of your attack rounds (the ones that didn't previously proc DA already). So, DA+2% won't always equal melee DoT+2%.

---------------------------

As for haste, the increases are shown when you're able to land an extra hit per fight. For short fights, it may seem like you get no returns from small amounts of haste (say, haste+3% total), but you do. The one thing you can't account for is the randomness of the mob: pDIF from the melees, engage times, when mobs use TP attacks that could require action of some sort (to delay someone's attack rounds), etc.

Essentially, think of the lifespan of the mob as a totally random number within a general range for the quality of your party. With 3% haste you would expect that most of the time you would see no increase in damage for the discrete case (a single mob), but every once in a while you will see a large increase in damage when you squeeze an extra hit in due to a small percentage of haste. Over time against mobs of random life spans those 0% increases balanced against those much larger increases will even out to a little over a 3% increase in damage.



Edited, Sep 26th 2009 2:42am by bsphil
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#18 Sep 26 2009 at 5:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
0%DA->2%DA = 102 attacks / 100 attacks = 1.0200x
2%DA->4%DA = 104 attacks / 102 attacks = 1.0196x
4%DA->6%DA = 106 attacks / 104 attacks = 1.0192x
....
52%DA->54%DA = 154 attacks / 152 attacks = 1.0132x

haste:
0%haste->2%haste = 1.0204x
2%haste->4%haste = 1.0208x
4%haste->6%haste = 1.0223x


To Kachi - if you can't follow math (and in no offensive way, from your posts it seems that you can't or struggle with it) Shinta's explanation could come accross confusing.

To reword Shinta's end results, the % is how much the addition improves your overall dmg.

0%DA->2%DA = 102 attacks / 100 attacks = 2%
2%DA->4%DA = 104 attacks / 102 attacks = 1.96%
4%DA->6%DA = 106 attacks / 104 attacks = 1.92%

As you can see, each 2% double attack you add is worth less, the more you stack.

haste:
0%haste->2%haste = 2.04%
2%haste->4%haste = 2.08%
4%haste->6%haste = 2.23%

As you can see, each 2% of Haste is worth more than the 2% prior to it (opposite of DA)



50%haste->52%haste = 4.16%

50%DA -> 52%DA = 1.33%
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#19 Sep 26 2009 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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I understand math just fine-- I'm not a mathematician, but I'm working on my PhD. Don't think I would get very far without having a working knowledge of math.

In any case, Double Attack offers a linear bonus, and it's needlessly misleading to say that it offers less of a bonus as you stack it. That holds true for any stat that applies linearly, but the bonuses are still linear.

+2%=+2% attacks
+4%=+4% attacks
etc.

I see what you're doing, but that does not support the statement that DA becomes less effective as it stacks. Each +DA is just as effective as the last. The effect you're demonstrating is the result of including what amount to other bonuses. It would be like saying that each % interest on your $100 savings account gave less than the last % of interest. It's true that the percentage growth would be less, but that's a completely meaningless explanation that has no relevance and only confuses people. Each additional % would still give you one ENTIRE dollar more, just like it still gives you an ENTIRE swing more in this case. There are no diminishing returns. Actually, as I've pointed out in the past, DA increases it by more than most people initially calculate because they don't factor in all three increases (melee frequency increase, WS frequency increase, WS damage increase).

But the simple explanation is that a point of Haste, in a perfect scenario, is twice as good as DA in melee and WS frequency increase. It loses a little luster because it lacks the WS damage increase and because the effect has the potential to be negligible, particularly the less you have, but not generally enough to be overshadowed.

In any case, there's no point in offering such an unsubstantial explanation for Haste>DA when it's so much more telling to point out that 50% Haste doubles swings (a 100% increase) where 50% DA only increases them by 50%.

Although it's possible, albeit unlikely, that I'm missing something else.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#20 Sep 26 2009 at 3:38 PM Rating: Decent
Look at it another way, 1$ is 1$, it buys you a sandwich at McD's but not much else, but is 1$'s relative worth higher to a bum or a millionaire? In terms of relative gain, DA gets worse the more you get.
bsphil wrote:
Another way to think about it is that DA can't proc on itself. If you have 10% DA and add 2% more DA, that extra 2% only works on 90% of your attack rounds (the ones that didn't previously proc DA already). So, DA+2% won't always equal melee DoT+2%.
for clarity:
w/ 50% base DA, 100 rounds, 1dmg/hit, 100%acc:
base: 100*1.50 = 150 dmg
adding 2% more DA:
150*(152/150)= 150*1.01333= 152 dmg

NOT:
150*1.02= 153 dmg, as your system of +1%DA=+1%dmg would falsely predict
Kachi wrote:
It loses a little luster because it lacks the WS damage increase
Did you not pay attention to:
Sand wrote:
You macro haste out during WS for stats that increase DMG more than DA.
?

EDIT: side note- W/ hagun/gorget YGK's fTP is 1.975, but DA'd hits always have an fTP of 1. In addition, it's likely that DA'd hits don't get the atk and acc bonuses that YGK enjoy. Thus, instead of 1% DA "doubling" your WS dmg 1% of the time, it increases it by significantly less than .5% overall (and that's why Osode > hachiman(+1) > Askar for WS).

Kachi wrote:
because the effect has the potential to be negligible, particularly the less you have
and I guess you didn't read bsphil's post/the thread I linked either?

Edited, Sep 26th 2009 7:58pm by shintasama
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#21 Sep 26 2009 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Kachi wrote:
[Haste] loses a little luster because it lacks the WS damage increase and because the effect has the potential to be negligible, particularly the less you have, but not generally enough to be overshadowed.
WS frequency correlates directly to WS damage.

Anyway, yes, it does have the potential to be negligible, but it also has (when you have very low haste amounts) the chance to still make a very large difference. In the end, those probabilities average out, and 3% total haste still gives you roughly a bit more than a 3% DoT increase.

You can't think about haste (or really any DD stats) in the discrete sense. It's damage over time.
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#22 Sep 26 2009 at 7:09 PM Rating: Good
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As far as getting rank ups goes, someone on BG posted that to figure out how much allied notes you have to have won from campaign to rank up, that it was 1k allied notes per RL day since you got your current metal. So if you rank up every 5 days, you would need to have earned 5k allied notes. If you waited 10 days after you rank up, you would need 10k allied notes instead.

Not sure myself that it's totally correct, but when I tried it, it worked exactly like he said for me.
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#23 Sep 26 2009 at 7:12 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
In terms of relative gain, DA gets worse the more you get.


I suppose, but so does nearly every other stat in the game by that logic. That's why it's a meaningless and potentially confusing statement to make.

Quote:
You macro haste out during WS for stats that increase DMG more than DA.


Point taken. However, you would do the same for DA in cases where it's not the optimal WS gear.

Quote:
and I guess you didn't read bsphil's post/the thread I linked either?


Well I didn't bother now that it's already established that Haste>DA, but I did read the arguments about Haste before, and they did not refute that Haste has diminished value in low amounts.

Quote:
WS frequency correlates directly to WS damage.


Yes, but that's not the point of distinguishing between WS frequency and raw WS damage. DA increases WS frequency as well as the actual WS damage when it procs.

Quote:
It's damage over time.


I'm aware-- that's why Haste has limitations in low amounts. The shorter the battle and the more DD is coming from outside sources, the less profound the effect, because Haste needs time to work, whereas linearly applied stats do not.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#24 Sep 27 2009 at 7:36 AM Rating: Decent
Kachi wrote:
I suppose, but so does nearly every other stat in the game by that logic. That's why it's a meaningless and potentially confusing statement to make.
You're right, nearly every other stat does work that way, and that's why you need to think about every stat from that perspective. It's not "misleading" or "confusing" (unlike considering 2%DA=2%dmg/wsfreq), its the most accurate frame of reference for comparing gear/stats and is required to make valid comparisons.
Kachi wrote:
I'm aware-- that's why Haste has limitations in low amounts. The shorter the battle and the more DD is coming from outside sources, the less profound the effect, because Haste needs time to work, whereas linearly applied stats do not.
wtf is this crap about, as I pointed out in that link you're not reading, haste "works" as soon as you're getting to your second swing. What are you fighting that dies before that point?
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Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#25 Sep 27 2009 at 8:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
wtf is this crap about, as I pointed out in that link you're not reading, haste "works" as soon as you're getting to your second swing. What are you fighting that dies before that point?


East Ron Bunnies, in which case, DA would be just as useless as haste.

Look at it like this,

If you have 100% DA, your gurenteed 1 extra attack each time you swing your gkt.

If you could have 99% Haste, you will do 100swings of the GKT in the time it takes the other person with 100% DA to 2 swings.

99.9% Haste = 1000 swings
99.99% Haste = 10,000 swings
99.999% Haste = 100,000 swings
100% Haste = causes your processor to burn out and the Universe to implode

Quote:
I see what you're doing, but that does not support the statement that DA becomes less effective as it stacks. Each +DA is just as effective as the last. The effect you're demonstrating is the result of including what amount to other bonuses. It would be like saying that each % interest on your $100 savings account gave less than the last % of interest. It's true that the percentage growth would be less, but that's a completely meaningless explanation that has no relevance and only confuses people. Each additional % would still give you one ENTIRE dollar more, just like it still gives you an ENTIRE swing more in this case. There are no diminishing returns.


When 10% interest is applied to my £100 in the bank, giving me £10 extra, I can spend that £10 on multiple items over an infinite amount of time until each penny in that £10 has been spent.

DA just allows you to use it once, and once only. If you double attacked in the first 1%, then the x% of DA you have after that does nothing for you until your next att round. Haste is there in every single thing you do, the only difference is, its not as noticeable as what a DA or Triple Attack looks like.

With the addition of DNC now, its possible for a SAM/DRG to reach 80% Haste with the right gear, spells, songs & Haste Samba. When your hitting away at 70% Haste, and pop Hasso, the speed difference is amazing. Going from 70% Haste to 80% Haste has just sped your already fast attack speed up by another 50%. So where that additional 10% Hasso has just sped you up by 50%, adding 10% DA onto 70% DA can do absolutely nothing at all.




Edited, Sep 27th 2009 4:35pm by Sandmasterr
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#26 Sep 27 2009 at 10:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You're right, nearly every other stat does work that way, and that's why you need to think about every stat from that perspective. It's not "misleading" or "confusing" (unlike considering 2%DA=2%dmg/wsfreq), its the most accurate frame of reference for comparing gear/stats and is required to make valid comparisons.


No, I really don't think so. Ask any banker, accountant, math teacher... it's a completely unnecessary observation that really doesn't better anyone's understanding. There are stats and mathematical situations where stats actually give diminishing returns (not "relative" diminishing returns). When you claim that linear stats give diminishing returns, you undermine the situations where stats actually do give diminishing returns. What will you call those? All you're really doing is shifting the language to the left, where it is less accurate and requires additional interpretation. Haste= exponential bonus. DA= linear bonus.


Quote:
wtf is this crap about, as I pointed out in that link you're not reading, haste "works" as soon as you're getting to your second swing. What are you fighting that dies before that point?


I didn't need to read a link to realize something that obvious. However, even if it "works" it provides -no bonus- unless you gain additional swings or score a meaningful killing blow. There are many conceivable battles where only getting a faster second, third, fourth and fifth blow will not improve your DOT for the battle or the speed of the battle at all. At all. More often, it will improve it some, but not fully. e.g., a 15% bonus will only yield a 7% performance bonus.

Quote:
When 10% interest is applied to my £100 in the bank, giving me £10 extra, I can spend that £10 on multiple items over an infinite amount of time until each penny in that £10 has been spent.


That's completely missing the point of the analogy. I'm talking about a single interest period.

And I don't know why you're still trying to explain to me why Haste is better than DA. I've already explained why for myself.

But I'm not going to discuss this any further. It's a semantics debate at this point, which is one of the most useless kinds of debate. If you disagree, I'm prepared to leave it at that.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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