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#1 Aug 29 2009 at 12:04 PM Rating: Decent
I like both jobs so I understand to the combo is not usually used. What I want to know what wrong with using this combo in exp pt?
#2 Aug 29 2009 at 12:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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It has it's uses. The main argument against it is that it doesnt add anything to your DPS. For example, /WAR gives you attack bonus, double attack, berserk. /DRG gives you attack bonus, accuracy bonus, jumps, and opens up more gear options. /NIN has nothing that directly adds to the DPS of a 2-handed class.

That said, a lot of people still use it for its defensive bonuses, and a lot of party leaders still ask for it because they don't understand how Seigan/Third Eye works (or perhaps because theyve had experiences with SAMs who dont understand how it works...) It has to be said, Utsusemi is more consistent with its damage reduction, and working them together makes for some very solid defensive play. The biggest issue really is that playing defensively in a merit party (beyond reasonable precautions) is going to be slow going.
#3 Aug 29 2009 at 1:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Healers have this idea in their head nowadays that they shouldn't actually have to heal people. Haste cycle, refresh cycle if RDM => afk until next haste cycle is what they want. Having all the DD sub nin so the healer doesn't have to heal anyone destroys your kill speed and destroys your XP, so it's usually frowned upon by DDs because, well, it sucks.
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#4 Aug 29 2009 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
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/NIN is situationally useful against mobs that have strong single target magic, TE wiping AOE, or moves you absolutely can't risk getting hit by. In a merit situation none of those situations is true, in fact SETE tends to work -better- than utsu in exp since it absorbs every hit of a multihit WS (pecking fury, vorpal, rushing). Utsusemi also lowers your DoT considerably (casting time), while /NIN does not give you any of the offensive boosts offered by other subs. It's just a inefficient play style advocated by lazy mages and party leaders that don't trust their members not to be idiots.
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#5 Aug 29 2009 at 2:24 PM Rating: Decent
So.....SAM/NIN is not very good in a regular exp party then.
#6 Aug 29 2009 at 6:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Correct. You should never sub NIN in a meripo. Especially with a competent RDM and competent melees in your party to share hate with.
#7 Aug 29 2009 at 8:51 PM Rating: Good
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SteelBattalion wrote:
So.....SAM/NIN is not very good in a regular exp party then.

Just for clarification, yes, SAM/NIN isn't good in a Meripo, and it's down right atrocious in a regular exp party.

If you need /nin prior to 74, they better have a bona fide reason to ask for it. Ichi is totally not worth it given Seigan/TE. After 74, the only reason I could advocate using it is if you haven't gotten an invite for days and you really wanted those last few merits to cap out something, and they wouldn't invite you without /nin.....

You see how it ends up: if a party is persistent on /nin, they probably aren't doinitright anyway. In general, /nin is for groups that you probably don't trust so much. But if that's the case, you can just go Campaign on /dnc and seek in the meantime for better results.

Offer not valid on all servers. Void where prohibited. Limit one /nin per party (likely BRD). Tax, tag, title, and licensing fees extra. See Forums for details.

This message was brought to you by the Society for Amazing Meripo Setups (SAMs) who always remind you: Never let a friend merit /nin.
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My friend said to me, "I think the weather's trippy." I said, "No, man, it's not the weather that's trippy, perhaps it is the way that we perceive it that is indeed trippy." Then I thought, "Man, I should've just said, 'Yeah.'"
#8 Aug 29 2009 at 10:24 PM Rating: Decent
Thank you all for answering my question. now i know why i havent seen that combo before.
#9 Aug 29 2009 at 10:30 PM Rating: Decent
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No problem :) It's not that there's something inherently wrong bad about the combo, it's just that there's nothing right good (in meripo).

Edit: Semantics, but I like it better this way.

Edited, Aug 30th 2009 2:38am by Drigo
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Mitch Hedberg wrote:
My friend said to me, "I think the weather's trippy." I said, "No, man, it's not the weather that's trippy, perhaps it is the way that we perceive it that is indeed trippy." Then I thought, "Man, I should've just said, 'Yeah.'"
#10 Aug 30 2009 at 2:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Drigo wrote:
No problem :) It's not that there's something inherently wrong bad about the combo, it's just that there's nothing right good (in meripo).

Edit: Semantics, but I like it better this way.

Edited, Aug 30th 2009 2:38am by Drigo


i approve of everything in this post except putting 'but' in the edit explanation.

(comments like that are so wittgenstein; he's always saying that the platonist isn't speaking falsely but rather that s/he's adding "isn't that weird?" to **** that isn't weird)

wittgenstein aside, semantics are good. everyone, repeat after me: there's nothing wrong with talking about semantics. what could be more important in understanding someone than knowing what the words they're using mean? also, i like the wrong/bad right/good distinction quoted above. well, also, there is something inherently wrong with SAM/NIN in meripo... it's like going SAM/no sub. no go.
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#11 Aug 30 2009 at 6:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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milich wrote:
Drigo wrote:
No problem :) It's not that there's something inherently wrong bad about the combo, it's just that there's nothing right good (in meripo).

Edit: Semantics, but I like it better this way.

Edited, Aug 30th 2009 2:38am by Drigo


i approve of everything in this post except putting 'but' in the edit explanation.

(comments like that are so wittgenstein; he's always saying that the platonist isn't speaking falsely but rather that s/he's adding "isn't that weird?" to sh*t that isn't weird)

wittgenstein aside, semantics are good. everyone, repeat after me: there's nothing wrong with talking about semantics. what could be more important in understanding someone than knowing what the words they're using mean? also, i like the wrong/bad right/good distinction quoted above. well, also, there is something inherently wrong with SAM/NIN in meripo... it's like going SAM/no sub. no go.

I must say, I'm a glutton for debate IRL. I find it refreshing and thought provoking. I'm definitely outgunned in this situation, so I'll just add some random thoughts on a cryptic piece of language I'm trying to perfect.

I don't understand when people get all personal while discussing something, so I'd like to piggy back onto your mantra: there's nothing wrong with debating. For that matter, there's nothing wrong with mass-debating either. Why is it looked down upon to get in a big circle and mass-debate? All you gotta remember is that this is an online forum, so if you like to discuss things, followed by a "shut up or I'll punch you in the face", you should go have your mass-debate party somewhere else.

On the other hand, I wouldn't mass-debate all over the place here either, but rather concentrate my assets on one subject. This way, you ensure maximum satisfaction for the time and effort you put in. Doing the former is left for the professionals, and could lead to pain, scorn, or an inflamed red rocket (not referring to the arrow). So, I bow to Milich's professionalism.

tl;dr- Milich wins, I'm just enjoying the ride. :-) Also, the true meaning of words are sometimes hard to gauge without intonation IMO, but I promise you I'm not being hostile.

P.S- I think Wittgenstein kind of looks like Dr. Gregory House.

Edit: I should really try to use preview more often so I can catch grammar problems.


Edited, Aug 30th 2009 10:45am by Drigo
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Mitch Hedberg wrote:
My friend said to me, "I think the weather's trippy." I said, "No, man, it's not the weather that's trippy, perhaps it is the way that we perceive it that is indeed trippy." Then I thought, "Man, I should've just said, 'Yeah.'"
#12 Aug 30 2009 at 10:07 AM Rating: Good
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Drigo wrote:
P.S- I think Wittgenstein kind of looks like Dr. Gregory House.


awesome.

i'm not being hostile either. i thought my reply might be mildly offensive, but hoped it would just be mildly weird. as for the rest of the subsequent post, maybe i'll come back and throw it around later, but for now i must be off.
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#13 Aug 30 2009 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
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milich wrote:
Drigo wrote:
P.S- I think Wittgenstein kind of looks like Dr. Gregory House.


awesome.

i'm not being hostile either. i thought my reply might be mildly offensive, but hoped it would just be mildly weird. as for the rest of the subsequent post, maybe i'll come back and throw it around later, but for now i must be off.


Right on, man. I do a lot of reading but not too much posting. In my experience, you gotta roll with the punches, learn something, and have a good time. I didn't take offense, and I have an appreciation for creativity lol.

On a side not you should totally try these Pringles I'm eating right now. They taste like Outback 100%.

Peace.
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TheTaruTaruCult LS -- Caithsith
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100+3 Alchemy

Mitch Hedberg wrote:
My friend said to me, "I think the weather's trippy." I said, "No, man, it's not the weather that's trippy, perhaps it is the way that we perceive it that is indeed trippy." Then I thought, "Man, I should've just said, 'Yeah.'"
#14 Oct 01 2009 at 1:56 AM Rating: Decent
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I totally just got b***hed out for going sam/thf into a Caedarva Mire imp party...

"You should sub nin man, a good pld doesn't need a thf to hold hate...and sam/thf is only for sky gods. Learn your job."

That's a cute thing to say since I took hate without weapon skilling!

So I told them "Let me show you what happens when I play like I can't put hate on someone else."

Sneak attack gekko (with soboro...?) for 1067. Couldn't get the enemy off me and I died. Simple as that. I'm still ticked about my Marinara Pizza +1 I wasted. lol

The tard PLD who couldn't keep hate also had a terrible habit of standing 20 feet from the monster she's "tanking". So, trick attack was out of the question. Over-confident tard.

So anyway I agree with everyone in the thread who contributed that /nin IS useless for sam in exp parties... and provides no assistance in doing your job well. If you need to avoid getting killed when taking hate, just avoid taking hate altogether by placing your hefty weapon skill damage on the pld! Then you can run behind the enemy and sneak attack+ws for even more damage after that. Yes, I also understand that if there's not a designated tank, then thief sub will not work well other than for sneak attack, for a damage boost that other subs provide better. My point is, if there's a pld, the samurai is better off subbing thf... It's helpful to them, it's helpful to the pld, and even the other dd's who can unleash without taking hate. I had a pld today ask me to run back to whitegate and sub thf, because I went sam/war expecting no tank.

Their justification for subbing ninja is "I've seen sam/nin do 2000 damage gekko" ... Well I'm sure they were also Lv75 fully merited with overwhelm and hagun. The party I was in was Lv69. Besides, if a sam/nin can break 2000, i'm pretty sure a sam/war could do better...

Edited, Oct 1st 2009 6:00am by StephisaMAN
#15 Oct 01 2009 at 2:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Myssu wrote:
/NIN has nothing that directly adds to the DPS of a 2-handed class.


Maybe not directly, but subbing nin can let you full time Hasso, rather than having to stick largely to Seigan. At 75 Hasso gives you 10 Str, 10 Acc and 10 Haste, which are a nice boost to your damage, especially in high haste situations such as merit parties.

Obviously it is situational. If you can go /drg or /war and full time Hasso you would do even more damage, but if you take too much damage this wouldn't be sustainable. If you /war with Berserk and full time Hasso, you could be a huge drain on mp.

milich wrote:
there's nothing wrong with talking about semantics


I hate anti-semantic people.
#16 Oct 01 2009 at 4:00 AM Rating: Decent
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I love when ppl say "/NIN destroys your XP". Kinda triggers the "your DDs suck" thoughts in me.

The counter-sense however is that the better your DDs are, the less you'll need the over-protection of Utsusemi. /NIN with good melees will (agreeing 100% with Mysso, who in my humble opinion gave the best answer here) severely slow down the kill rate, although that doesn't necessarily means breaking chains. Thus it doesn't kill your XP. At most, you'll need about 5 extra minutes to get the same XP in a several hours long party (this of course, can be considered fallacy, but so can any empiric argument saying otherwise).

But coming back to the original argument, if your melees are good enough to keep chain as a full /NIN party, then they sure are good enough to share hate properly and kill mobs before they can eat anyone's SETE.

Strictly to merit parties, I think Drigo got it perfectly right with this:
Quote:
In general, /nin is for groups that you probably don't trust so much

Gotta add to that however the willingness to spend time with such party in detriment of spending time forming / waiting a better one.

Outside merit parties there are (maybe "should still be" would be more appropriated) several uses for /NIN, but this is given certain specific activities, and I'm not sure of your interest about them.
#17 Oct 01 2009 at 4:29 AM Rating: Decent
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I have been pondering something as of late.

With all the hate of /NIN, what do the alternatives provide us? Its been shown that attack does almost nothing for our WS's. The #1 reason to use /WAR is for berserk, with the #2 being a 10% DA. But since we're Brutal + Pole most of the time anyway, and DA has diminishing returns, do we really get that much from it?

Personally I'm always /DRG for the extra 5% haste (puts me at 22~25% gear haste depending on camp) and the extra controlled TP from jumps. But it would be an interesting comparison SAM/WAR who had to use Seigan for defense (thus precluding the 10% 10 acc bonus of Hasso) vs the SAM/NIN who was good enough at using shadows with Hasso (learn to cancel it out and reapply) to keep Hasso up full time.

I really wonder what the actual split for Hasso/Seigan is for a SAM in an average merit pt, not the BRD + COR fulltime Hasso with outside healers and relic melee parties.
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#18 Oct 01 2009 at 5:55 AM Rating: Decent
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There was a lot of math done on the SAM/WAR vs. SAM/DRG issue on KI I believe it was, not too far back. I'll try to find it for you
#19 Oct 01 2009 at 6:40 AM Rating: Decent
Contradiction wrote:
Maybe not directly, but subbing nin can let you full time Hasso, rather than having to stick largely to Seigan. At 75 Hasso gives you 10 Str, 10 Acc and 10 Haste, which are a nice boost to your damage, especially in high haste situations such as merit parties.
Yeahhh, except that your should be canceling hasso anyways to cast utsu, casting utsu takes time while SETE is instant, and SETE does a better job of protecting you from merit mob WS. In all actuality, ignoring all the other benefits from melee subs, you'd probably be better off dmg wise switching between hasso and SETE regardless.
Quote:
(this of course, can be considered fallacy, but so can any empiric argument saying otherwise)
I found this statement hilarious.
Quote:
With all the hate of /NIN, what do the alternatives provide us?
For merit level stuff my vote is for /DRG. Haste is hawt.
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#20 Oct 01 2009 at 7:28 AM Rating: Good
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Shinta I normally would agree with you. I prefer SAM/DRG for the reasons I've stated above. But my question was the realistic percentage time that a SAM would have Hasso up vs Seigan. Both are on a 1m timer so there is a gap between when the monster is no longer kicking your a$$ and when you can reapply Hasso. Or more importantly, the amount of time you have Seigan up to prevent the monster from kicking your a$$. The better the player, the more time they would have Seigan up. Also seigan isn't preemptive, the player must manually activate it upon being on the receiving end of the mobs fury. This means you get hate and the monster hits you before you've even had time to react, hopefully by the second to third hit you've activated your defense's.

As for canceling out Hasso to reapply Utsusemi, depends on how bad you want to optimize things. There is a windower plugin (ohh no!!) called Cancel. It allows you to cancel out buff icons from a macro. Basically you put it in your Utsusemi macro so its instant. Then you hit Hasso again immediately after you see the icon appear (regardless of the animation). Ni itself doesn't take any real time to cast, its Ichi that sucks the most.

But still... I know SAM/DRG full time Hasso would kick the a$$ of anything a SAM/NIN could do... but what if I'm forced to full time (or nearly so) Seigan?

Its a chick vs egg arguement.. the better the player... the more defensive options they need. Unless they always merit with other players of the exact or higher skill / gear / merit level.
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#21StephisaMAN, Posted: Oct 01 2009 at 7:58 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Ahh yes another good reason I like subbing thief, full time Hasso won't get me killed! 9% haste at my level, one more and it's 10%.
#22 Oct 01 2009 at 8:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Ahh yes another good reason I like subbing thief, full time Hasso won't get me killed! 9% haste at my level, one more and it's 10%.

10% base haste + soboro sukehiro = ****



Quote:
I totally just got b***hed out for going sam/thf into a Caedarva Mire imp party...

"You should sub nin man, a good pld doesn't need a thf to hold hate...and sam/thf is only for sky gods. Learn your job."


While I don't agree with the "sam/thf is only for sky gods" portion of this, when did /THF become an acceptable sub for XP PTs? It's not as bad as, say, /WHM would be but wow, really?

The problem with the wording of these two comments is that they seem to suggest that /THF and /NIN as being interchangeable as subjobs. They are not.

If you need /NIN, chances are there's a nasty AoE or single-target spell you need to not be hit by. If you need /THF, chances are you need to keep the mob fixed on the tank while mages and other DDs chip away at it (Sky Gods, HNMs, etc).

As Shintasama pointed out: In an XP/Merit party neither of these situations is true. If you're /WAR and hitting the ground too often (read: at all) because you're pulling a disproportionate amount of hate you, your DoT and your party's XP/hr would be best served by you holding back, researching enmity, and riding hate lines a bit more attentively than you would be switching to /NIN or /THF.

Edit: That said, sh*t happens and sometimes a Skoffin will drop a Fang Rush/Deadly Dive on you the split second you pull hate with shadows or TE down. The point is, this should be a rare occurrence. If you start off a fight dropping an lolepeen Tachi: Yukikaze against an imp before the PLD has time to Flash/Voke, you deserve the facerape you're likely to receive

Edited, Oct 1st 2009 12:24pm by Beltenebros
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For a greater economy shall follow us and it will be outdone. And a greater autonomy shall follow us and it too will be outdone. And a greater feeling shall follow Love and it too we will blow to dust.
Retired. For reals this time.
#23 Oct 01 2009 at 8:49 AM Rating: Decent
saevellakshmi wrote:
Shinta I normally would agree with you.
wait, what? lies!

SETE/Hasso percentage is going to vary wildly by player, party and camp. I'm pretty aggressive, so as long as the people I'm with aren't worthless I'll leave hasso up as long as my mage is good and just switch to SETE if I feel it's warranted. "Perfect" defense just isn't necessary in a merit situation.

4seconds/1.5seconds seems like a lifetime when you're swinging every 2.7 seconds, it's actually a much bigger dmg hit than you're giving it credit for. I do use //cancel, but if I'm in a situation where I'd be fulltiming seigen I'd need to be constantly casting utsu and hasso wouldn't be available to reapply most of the time.

Belten wrote:
As Shintasama pointed out: In an XP/Merit party neither of these situations is true. If you're /WAR and hitting the ground too often (read: at all) because you're pulling a disproportionate amount of hate you, your DoT and your party's XP/hr would be best served by you holding back, researching enmity, and riding hate lines a bit more attentively than you would be switching to /NIN or /THF.
Well, I think the real problem with using /THF in exp is you shouldn't have a tank to TA in the first place.

srsly people, wtf
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#24 Oct 01 2009 at 9:00 AM Rating: Default
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Beltenebros wrote:
Quote:
Ahh yes another good reason I like subbing thief, full time Hasso won't get me killed! 9% haste at my level, one more and it's 10%.

10% base haste + soboro sukehiro = ****



Quote:
I totally just got b***hed out for going sam/thf into a Caedarva Mire imp party...

"You should sub nin man, a good pld doesn't need a thf to hold hate...and sam/thf is only for sky gods. Learn your job."


While I don't agree with the "sam/thf is only for sky gods" portion of this, when did /THF become an acceptable sub for XP PTs? It's not as bad as, say, /WHM would be but wow, really?

The problem with the wording of these two comments is that they seem to suggest that /THF and /NIN as being interchangeable as subjobs. They are not.

If you need /NIN, chances are there's a nasty AoE or single-target spell you need to not be hit by. If you need /THF, chances are you need to keep the mob fixed on the tank while mages and other DDs chip away at it (Sky Gods, HNMs, etc).

As Shintasama pointed out: In an XP/Merit party neither of these situations is true. If you're /WAR and hitting the ground too often (read: at all) because you're pulling a disproportionate amount of hate you, your DoT and your party's XP/hr would be best served by you holding back, researching enmity, and riding hate lines a bit more attentively than you would be switching to /NIN or /THF.

Edit: That said, sh*t happens and sometimes a Skoffin will drop a Fang Rush/Deadly Dive on you the split second you pull hate with shadows or TE down. The point is, this should be a rare occurrence. If you start off a fight dropping an lolepeen Tachi: Yukikaze against an imp before the PLD has time to Flash/Voke, you deserve the facerape you're likely to receive

Edited, Oct 1st 2009 12:24pm by Beltenebros


The reason I like subbing thief is because I can go all out and not pull hate most of the time. I can pretty much get away with anything after a trick attack + tachi gekko on a decent pld. I am not saying it is interchangable with /nin... In fact I think /nin is pretty stupid for a lot of jobs.

Quote:
Well, I think the real problem with using /THF in exp is you shouldn't have a tank to TA in the first place.


Wait... what? o_o

Edited, Oct 1st 2009 1:11pm by StephisaMAN
#25 Oct 01 2009 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Quote:
Well, I think the real problem with using /THF in exp is you shouldn't have a tank to TA in the first place.


Wait... what? o_o


I think Shin's referring to meritting exp here, in which case I'd agree with him. If you're not bird burning at 75, however, there probably should be a designated tank.

Quote:
The reason I like subbing thief is because I can go all out and not pull hate most of the time. I can pretty much get away with anything after a trick attack + tachi gekko on a decent pld. I am not saying it is interchangable with /nin... In fact I think /nin is pretty stupid for a lot of jobs.


I'd still /WAR and hold back a bit (even if it meant full-timing Seigan) but that's me. THF has a lower DoT than /WAR (or even /DRG, pre-Wyvern Earring) but if it fits the playstyle you prefer and find people willing to accommodate your preference... more power to ya.
____________________________
SAM TP | SAM WS |
For a greater economy shall follow us and it will be outdone. And a greater autonomy shall follow us and it too will be outdone. And a greater feeling shall follow Love and it too we will blow to dust.
Retired. For reals this time.
#26 Oct 01 2009 at 10:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah that's true, it depends on how the party is setup mainly. If there's no actual tank then /thf is almost more useless than /smn lol... Sneak attack would be the only thing to bat an eye at, and even then it's maybe 150%~ of the normal ws damage, once per minute...
#27 Oct 01 2009 at 10:21 AM Rating: Decent
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A competent DD should not worry about "pulling hate" at merit levels. In fact ALL melee need to "share the pain" as the saying goes. There is no tank because all the melee's take turns "tanking" depending on who laid down the last WS and/or ****** the monster off the most.

SAM/THF has a place in XP parties from 60 to 70~ish (mire levels). Mostly its that small 60 to 68 period when melee's haven't got their OMGWTF level gear yet and a single source of damage intake is preferred. I would take a SAM/NIN over a SAM/THF in a merit PT, for the sole reason that I know the SAM/NIN will at least eat their down hate and not force others to take more damage.

That being said... it's still a toss up on which mode works better. And Shinta with all due respect, unless you have outside healers, or OMGWTF DD's, your not full timing hasso without the poor healing running out of MP. That or your other DD's are using defensive options and only one guy is sponging. A typical merit PT can stand to have one sponge, just not anymore then that. But asking a single healer to haste 3~4 people, drop cure bombs, and cast Dia II/III on the monsters (11 to 17.6% increase in attack) is too much. The moment heavy damage intake happens, then we drop Dia first to free up MP for cure IV's. If further sponging happens then haste is the next to go, usually from the sponging member in an attempt to correct the damage intake distribution.
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RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#28 Oct 01 2009 at 10:34 AM Rating: Default
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Well I'm not at merit levels for SAM yet. :P

Another reason I like using /thf is so I don't get my **** food eaten and tp stolen every pull... The damage you lose from having tp jacked or food downed every 15 seconds is pretty bad, no?

Edited, Oct 1st 2009 2:35pm by StephisaMAN
#29 Oct 01 2009 at 11:29 AM Rating: Decent
Belten wrote:
Quote:
Shinta wrote:
Well, I think the real problem with using /THF in exp is you shouldn't have a tank to TA in the first place.

srsly people, wtf

Wait... what? o_o
If you're not bird burning at 75, however, there probably should be a designated tank.
If you're not overhunting you don't need a fulltime tank starting ~55-60. If you're overhunting you should stop overhunting. Appropriate camp selection will help/hurt exp gain way more than appropriate SJ choice.
Quote:
That being said... it's still a toss up on which mode works better. And Shinta with all due respect, unless you have outside healers, or OMGWTF DD's, your not full timing hasso without the poor healing running out of MP. That or your other DD's are using defensive options and only one guy is sponging. A typical merit PT can stand to have one sponge, just not anymore then that. But asking a single healer to haste 3~4 people, drop cure bombs, and cast Dia II/III on the monsters (11 to 17.6% increase in attack) is too much. The moment heavy damage intake happens, then we drop Dia first to free up MP for cure IV's. If further sponging happens then haste is the next to go, usually from the sponging member in an attempt to correct the damage intake distribution.
Not having /WARs helps significantly. I push my mages (not fulltime hasso, if you had read instead of assuming), but never to the point where they have to give up haste cycle. IMO Dia III is pretty overrated though (and mp intensive) for 20s mobs, esp if you're using GK. This doesn't really have much to do with the argument though, if you're seriously concerned about taking dmg you're not going to have hasso most of the time either way, or if you want to max your dmg w/o caring about dmg taken you either have to not cast utsu or not use SETE (and the full spectrum in between). In either case, having to cast utsu lowers your DoT comparatively. Keep in mind this isn't even including the other "perks" you get from other SJs like +haste +acc +atk +attacks +SA etcetc. /NIN just isn't good for SAM unless you need to absolutely avoid getting hit by X and don't care about the loss of dmg.
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#30 Oct 01 2009 at 12:38 PM Rating: Default
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I subbed war to about 74 occasionally subbing thf along the way depending on the situation. Been 75 for a while now and have had the opportunity to recieve a bunch of various gear to build several different setups.

I never meripo but I do limbus, nyzul, sky, sea, dynamis, MMM, campiagn and various other events. The one thing I don't do anymore is meripo because I'm capped at exp and I prefer campaign to cap off any exp loses.

I have pretty much every job there is exept pup and brd available to sub at 37 or better and I can honestly say that I cannot remember the last time I subbed war beyond testing a new weapon or equipment.

THF, NIN and DNC are really the only subs I use and in testing out WAR sub I certainly notice hitting harder and the added DA proc but I don't see a difference in WS

#31 Oct 01 2009 at 11:06 PM Rating: Decent
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StephisaMAN wrote:
Another reason I like using /thf is so I don't get my **** food eaten and tp stolen every pull... The damage you lose from having tp jacked or food downed every 15 seconds is pretty bad, no?


But it would be better for the /thf to have their TP and food stolen than a DD with a sub that boosts their damage.

Professor shintasama wrote:
except that your should be canceling hasso anyways to cast utsu


Not necessarily. If you have 60% Haste your recast will be fairly low anyway, meaning you can have hasso up most the time.

Professor shintasama wrote:
For merit level stuff my vote is for /DRG. Haste is hawt.


I agree, I love going /drg and taking my whm mule to outside heal. But when MP is an issue and you have to use seigan most the time, the 10% haste from hasso /nin would outweight the 5% haste from /drg.

And if the party has to stop to rest MP or loses a weakened DD for 5 mins because the mage wanted one extra tic resting, that will dent the xp/hr even more.
#32 Oct 01 2009 at 11:54 PM Rating: Default
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AngelusLestat wrote:
But it would be better for the /thf to have their TP and food stolen than a DD with a sub that boosts their damage.


May just be me, but that seems contradictory...

It's either have a damage boosting sub and no food, or a hate control sub and food... The /thf wouldn't be getting their food stolen lol... nor would the /war samurai if the sam/thf actually has a decent ws set...

I'm not dissing on /war or /drg... Those are actually good subs... You missed the part where I said I don't sub thf without a pld...

My thoughts on this aren't up for debate... I know what I sub thf for and why it's effective for me and my parties. If it isn't for you, tough luck.

Edited, Oct 2nd 2009 4:10am by StephisaMAN
#33 Oct 02 2009 at 12:30 AM Rating: Good
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Theres so many things that I disagree with that ppl have written in the past 2 days but i can't be bothered to make one of those posts full of quotes and responces.

Instead, ill talk meripo. a few months back, Kerb was saying all DD's in meripo's (MNK's inc) should sub the best DD sub they have, be it /WAR /SAM or /DRG. The reason being, mobs last 10-15secs and only get off 1-2 ws's a fight.

At the time, i thought that was suicide. because from my experience, if I did that on MNK i'd be dead in the first few fights.

Then, I got BB on NMK, got 75SAM, haidate and good gear etc. I came back to meriting on SAM and making my own meripo's, with eqally geared/skilled players, mob's were indeed dropping in 10-15secs.

So with the ppl I know know, and merit with, everyone always subs their most damaging sj for their Job/setup. I can full time Hasso (mostly) on SAM, and go /WAR on MNK. Due to the quickness of mob deaths and aggressiveness / skill of players, there is no mp sponging.

Remember too, most meripo's should really inc a WAR, because they /SAM, 1st voke and have Retaliation (obviously not st in stone, BRD COR DN SAM/DRG SAM/DRG if F'kin unstoppable).

-----------------------------------------

If you can't go to exp (55-74) /WAR, or are pulling way to much hate, ask the mage to stop hasting you. If the pty still ends up not handling a SAM/WAR fulltiming SETE, then GTFO of it. Its really that simple. /THF is terrible, /NIN is worse, and both only should be used in their respective end-game scenario's.

Also, someone said /THF with Soboro?, Jesus Christ
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#34 Oct 02 2009 at 12:33 AM Rating: Decent
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All this stuff about food being stolen? A good SAM will take ~4 stacks of mithkabobs to a colibri party. After a fight when your food has been stolen, you pop another.
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#35StephisaMAN, Posted: Oct 02 2009 at 12:44 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Some of us who have not been here for very long, can not afford to squander money like that.
#36 Oct 02 2009 at 2:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Marinara Pizza+1 = ~6K, 2-3 stacks of Mithkabobs = ~10K. Not much difference, but for a colibri pty, it makes all the difference, and it shows others you know what your doing.

Quote:
I prefer not to waste unnecessary money on food, considering I still have to buy equipment for myself.


Its not about wealth. If you can't make a few K to help your SAM perform better with either cheap ACC or cheap ATT food, experienced players will just forget about you or write you off as gimp. As the game is now 8years on, experienced players are not exactly rare.

This kinda thing is what being a good SAM is all about,

LVL40+ you gear for ACC, if your new, you farm for Hauby, 2xwoodsmans, life belt etc. Being 'good' at a job isn't just gaining experience points, its putting the outside work in too.

If Gil really is that bad you can't afford mithkabobs, then eat Meat Jeryk's. They are still STR+3 ATT=30 @ 1.2K/stack which still shows your making an effort.

Quote:

Generally when I party during the day, I eat a Marinara Pizza +1 with Sanction food duration increase. Lasts 8 hours. That's more time than I need to get my exp'ing done for the day.


If your a DD, during a Colibri pty, and that marinara lasts you the whole pty, your doing many many things wrong.


---------------------

Ok, I hate coming across as an ***, these job forums are here to help players better their game. My first 10-15 posts on Alla 3-4years back were all sub-default, because I went on about how VIT rings makes Asuran Fists do uber dmg etc, I couldn't understand why everyone disagreed with me until I read the recent threads at he time, and properly learned how to gear/play MNK. Everyone called me a sock and troll (it was that bad) but all I really was, was a noob thinking my own experience was top.

so StephisaMAN, if your serious about SAM, and/or need gil to help, list your gear, level, tp/ws sets and ill help you sort your SAM out to be uber good with what you have, and help you make the gil to get the gear you might need.





Edited, Oct 2nd 2009 10:23am by Sandmasterr
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#37 Oct 02 2009 at 6:04 AM Rating: Decent
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milich wrote:
well, also, there is something inherently wrong with SAM/NIN in meripo... it's like going SAM/no sub. no go.


No, its worse. You loose damage by recasting.
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#38 Oct 02 2009 at 8:52 AM Rating: Decent
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TheKhory wrote:
milich wrote:
well, also, there is something inherently wrong with SAM/NIN in meripo... it's like going SAM/no sub. no go.


No, its worse. You loose damage by recasting.
yuuup

contradiction wrote:
shintasama wrote:
except that your should be canceling hasso anyways to cast utsu
Not necessarily. If you have 60% Haste your recast will be fairly low anyway, meaning you can have hasso up most the time.

Cap on recast is 50% so if you cast with hasso up (1.5x recast time) you're only getting your cast time to 25% off. This limits you to ~6.6 shadows a min, which is crap compared to seigan, especially since multihit WS completely clear utsu blinks. Whats worse though, is hasso increases casting time by 1.5x as well, so if you're constantly getting pounded you'd be spending ~20seconds of every minute casting, killing your dmg. Having hasso up does not come anywhere close to making up for this.

Quote:
And if the party has to stop to rest MP or loses a weakened DD for 5 mins because the mage wanted one extra tic resting, that will dent the xp/hr even more.
I don't think I've ever died in an AU party, or had a mage run out of mp. I can solo/dual heal all melee colibri PTs as a SAM/DNC for ***** sake. If that sort of ******** is happening in your parties you need to get competent healers, not gimp your melee.
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#39 Oct 02 2009 at 10:39 AM Rating: Default
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On Bismarck mithakbobs are 5k a stack ;;

Quote:
so StephisaMAN, if your serious about SAM, and/or need gil to help, list your gear, level, tp/ws sets and ill help you sort your SAM out to be uber good with what you have, and help you make the gil to get the gear you might need.


Right now, here we go...

Lv70

TP set - flat 6 hit build

Zanbato (+1 str mnd and chr aug)
Claymore Grip
Olibanum Sachet
Empress Hairpin
Chivalrous Chain
Minuet Earring
Fowling Earring
Haubergeon
Ochimusha Kote
Garrulous Ring
Ecphoria Ring
Amemet Mantle+1
Life Belt (+2 STR aug)
Shinimusha Haidate (+3 DEX aug)
Hachiman sune-ate

--------------------------

WS set

Zanbato
Claymore Grip
Olibanum Sachet
Sipahi Turban (+1 Resist Stun aug)
Chivalrous Chain
Minuet Earring
Fowling Earring
Hachiman Domaru
Pallas's Bracelets
Garrulous Ring
Sun Ring
Smilodon Mantle (+4 evasion aug...somewhat useless, considering WS set)
Life Belt
Myochin Haidate
Hachiman sune-ate

Quote:
If your a DD, during a Colibri pty, and that marinara lasts you the whole pty, your doing many many things wrong.


No... I don't party on lolibris when I eat those... I played "the right way" last night in a lolibri party and went through 2 stacks of mithkabobs in less than 20 minutes.

BTW it is VERY stupid that third eye cannot anticipate snatch morsel...

Edited, Oct 2nd 2009 3:15pm by StephisaMAN
#40 Oct 02 2009 at 6:44 PM Rating: Default
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If we're talking about meripo colibri, either have pimp gears and eat a mithkabob or pop a sushi/regular gears while using polearm.
#41 Oct 02 2009 at 8:25 PM Rating: Decent
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saevellakshmi wrote:

Its a chick vs egg arguement.. the better the player... the more defensive options they need. Unless they always merit with other players of the exact or higher skill / gear / merit level.


^^This sums up my feelings on the subject. It's not always as simple as picking /war or /drg and hoping for the best. If the other DD's aren't pulling their weight, you'll have to hold back anyways or become a MP sink. The argument in this case is always "party with better DD's". But that's a strawman argument because you never know what you'll get unless you personally build the party. Speaking from both a mage and DD perspective, most DD's can't seem to understand they might need to hold back more depending on tank or party setup. In those cases, /nin can prove useful. Now those DRG/nin's are really gimp. They have 2 hate shedding tools to migrate damage, yet they hide behind shadows. I prefer /drg myself if the situation affords it. However, the jury's still out when it comes to a pick up group. If your group is evenly matched across the board, /nin loses a lot of its appeal.
#42 Oct 02 2009 at 11:01 PM Rating: Good
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Really, if you're that well merited and geared compared to the rest of the party, you might as well throw up Seigan, spring for some damage reduction and eva gear for when TE wears, and call yourself the tank.
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#43 Oct 02 2009 at 11:20 PM Rating: Default
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Most of the time sam/war I don't have a choice...lol
#44 Oct 02 2009 at 11:46 PM Rating: Good
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saevellakshmi wrote:
I have been pondering something as of late.

With all the hate of /NIN, what do the alternatives provide us? Its been shown that attack does almost nothing for our WS's. The #1 reason to use /WAR is for berserk, with the #2 being a 10% DA. But since we're Brutal + Pole most of the time anyway, and DA has diminishing returns, do we really get that much from it?

Personally I'm always /DRG for the extra 5% haste (puts me at 22~25% gear haste depending on camp) and the extra controlled TP from jumps. But it would be an interesting comparison SAM/WAR who had to use Seigan for defense (thus precluding the 10% 10 acc bonus of Hasso) vs the SAM/NIN who was good enough at using shadows with Hasso (learn to cancel it out and reapply) to keep Hasso up full time.

I really wonder what the actual split for Hasso/Seigan is for a SAM in an average merit pt, not the BRD + COR fulltime Hasso with outside healers and relic melee parties.


when i would party SAM/DRG (which is the only way i'd party on SAM), i think it was about 95% hasso, 5% seigan. seigan was only for HP dips, MP dips, obvious hate-going-to-be-sustained-awhile type moments. i also used third eye without seigan quite often.

this is for pick up parties and ls/semi-ls parties alike. if i wanted to go /NIN, i'd be MNK/NIN. i've XP'd SAM/NIN a few times and it didn't ruin my life (likely i was drunk and partying during JP hours), but there's no point to it. seigan/hasso have those tiny recast times for a reason. anyway, i'm chiming in to answer the curiosity question, not argue. in my experience with varying healers and melees (never being outparsed on SAM in years), i'd say it's like 90/10 or so hasso/seigan, if not 95/5--always /DRG.

apologies on not reading any post after the one to which i responded.

edit: whoa whoa whoa. actually, if you're looking for /DRG vs /WAR opinions, i generally partied with GK instead of polearm, so /DRG is the obvious winner (haste, y/g/k pDIF bonus). i didn't do enough parties to really get a feel for /DRG vs /WAR with polearm, though the comparison is a bit obvious... /DRG wins handily when super buffed, /WAR wins handily when not. edit: also this.

Edited, Oct 3rd 2009 3:52am by milich
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#45 Oct 03 2009 at 12:45 AM Rating: Good
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Right now, here we go...

StephisaMAN wrote:
Lv70

TP set - flat 6 hit build

Zanbato (+1 str mnd and chr aug)
Claymore Grip
Olibanum Sachet
Empress Hairpin
Chivalrous Chain
Minuet Earring
Fowling Earring
Haubergeon
Ochimusha Kote
Garrulous Ring
Ecphoria Ring
Amemet Mantle+1
Life Belt (+2 STR aug)
Shinimusha Haidate (+3 DEX aug)
Hachiman sune-ate

--------------------------

WS set

Zanbato
Claymore Grip
Olibanum Sachet
Sipahi Turban (+1 Resist Stun aug)
Chivalrous Chain
Minuet Earring
Fowling Earring
Hachiman Domaru
Pallas's Bracelets
Garrulous Ring
Sun Ring
Smilodon Mantle (+4 evasion aug...somewhat useless, considering WS set)
Life Belt
Myochin Haidate
Hachiman sune-ate


Firstly, you've gone and augmented two items that can be sold back at later dates, Shinimush Haidate (100k), Sipahi Turban (50K).

Ditch the Claymore grip and get a Pole grip or Mythril Grip+1 (Pole Grip is same price as Claymore)

I'd Full-time Sipahi Turban Until you get OHat or Turban.

If you sold your Garrulous ring (~70K) you could buy a Woodsman's for TP, & 2nd Sun ring for ws for an additional 50K. (If your thinking of Augmenting the Garrulous ring, don't).

@75, you'll prob get hooked on meriting, and won't stop until you have 8/8GKT, 5/5STP then 5/5Overwhelm and 5/5Meditate and also 4/5 Ikishoten for double tp return on Zanshin hits. You'll need ACC/Haste/pure 6HIT gears while constantly trying to upgrade your STR gear sets.

Join a Sky LS & finish CoP

Once you get 75, things will change. You'll be able to spend your hard-earned KS's on KSNM's like Royal Ramble and Copy Cat (gurenteed 150k-300k+ returns), You can spend your Imperial Standing Daily on ISNM75 (you always see /sh's for the Puk one, and Happy Caster is easy too, with slightly better rewards).

A year down the road after dinging 75, you'll hopefully have good tp/ws sets inc some nice Sky gears, fully merited SAM, completed CoP with Rajas & Brutal, some spare gil and the skill/knowledge/gears to take on more of the tougher challenges ffxi has to offer, or start all over again on another job, but with a better understanding on how to gear and play.



Edited, Oct 4th 2009 10:54am by Sandmasterr
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#46 Oct 03 2009 at 6:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Those are some great pointers, I will take a lot of them into consideration. Well as for fulltiming Sipahi turban, I would but I use Fourth Division haube now. Forgot I had that in storage.

I've been working pretty hard on CoP lately (especially to get soboro) and I'm on mission 4-3 now... Hit a road block when my static group ditched me and went ahead while I was sleeping... As for Rise of the Zilart, I don't have an excuse other than I haven't started any real work on it, I'm still on the Temple of Uggalepih.

One thing I've been wondering, is the Askar Korazin something I should be working for as well? I'm halfway to 72 now and I'd really like to have that piece, but it just seems to me like it's better suited for some other jobs that don't have access to much Store TP gear... After all the accuracy on my Haubergeon isn't something I want to lose any time soon.

Also, I have dusk gloves from PLD... Should I use those over Ochimusha Kote? (at 72)

Oh, I just edited this in, but my newest addition to the WS set is Warwolf Belt now that I'm Lv71.

Edited, Oct 3rd 2009 2:15pm by StephisaMAN
#47 Oct 03 2009 at 9:25 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
One thing I've been wondering, is the Askar Korazin something I should be working for as well?
It's a useful piece for farming/soloing/tanking and the like, just don't wear it in exp and above.
Quote:
Also, I have dusk gloves from PLD... Should I use those over Ochimusha Kote? (at 72)
yes
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#48 Oct 03 2009 at 9:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I've been working pretty hard on CoP lately (especially to get soboro) and I'm on mission 4-3 now... Hit a road block when my static group ditched me and went ahead while I was sleeping... As for Rise of the Zilart, I don't have an excuse other than I haven't started any real work on it, I'm still on the Temple of Uggalepih.


Actually getting access to sky is very easy, there's only 3 pretty simple battlefields, but I can imagine finding ppl to do that nowadays is tough.

Try and form a new CoP group, a Rajas ring is so amazing and won't come off your left hand ever on SAM.

Once 75 with 4merits in STP (i did Stp first), and until you get a Rajas ring, you'll need Hachiman kote & Shinimusha haidate in your tp set for your 6hit. Fuma's on feet are generally better than dusk hands because they don't have -movment speed. You also need 4/5 stp merits.

Once you get Rajas ring, you can use a different leg piece for tp (this is why I say sky as end game priority, becasue 2 great leg pieces, Byakko's haidate and Shura haidate come from it, along with Osode for WS & as an option for /DNC tp body solo or campaign.

Quote:
One thing I've been wondering, is the Askar Korazin something I should be working for as well? I'm halfway to 72 now and I'd really like that piece, but it just seems to me like it's better suited for some other jobs that don't have access to much Store TP gear... After all the accuracy on my Haubergeon isn't something I want to lose any time soon.


Askar just looks good, Hauby is god for most important things, Askar just has situational uses like much other armor pieces do. Using Askar over Hauby means a loss of 6% ACC (or 8% ACC HQ) which is HUGE in activity's like endgame and meriting.

Okote's don't really have a use for a 75SAM.

If you need a pair of fuma's, they drop pretty regular from Copy Cat KSNM, at least 40% drop rate.

Quote:
I've been working pretty hard on CoP lately (especially to get soboro)


Yeah, Soboro is just an amazing weapon. I had SAM @ 49 for over a year because it took 5 runs for me to get it.

----------------------------------------------------------------



I did notice Soboro's greatness dip a bit when I was 72-early75 in comparison to Hagun /WAR, but now its picked up again (/WAR) because (and this is what i think) with 5/5 overwhelm, not only does soboro have the fSTR advantage, but the extra ws's means the 19% ws dmg from overwhelm is presant more (talking /WAR only here to anyone who might want to discuss it) we obviously know /DRG's capabilities.
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#49 Oct 03 2009 at 10:10 AM Rating: Decent
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I got lucky with my soboro run, had a very dedicated group of 10 people.

Popped the NM 12 times and got 9 drops, and one wipe (first pop) lol

Anyways, I think I'll invest in the Hachiman hands, that should allow me to have 6 hit and not have to use the 464 delay katana....which is pretty **** slow especially without haste gear.

I think something I would like to do once I get some merits on great katana, is farm a Swift Belt. Is that better than life belt for a TP set? I'm Elvaan btw... not sure if it's just me but I have pretty serious accuracy issues on higher level enemies if I don't eat sushi.

That Copycat KSNM, it drops Attila's earring too I noticed. I was looking buy that a while back actually, if that drops is that something I should keep until I get a Brutal Earring?

EDIT:

Okay... So I bought Hachiman Kote. I like how it's 6 hit with Soboro Sukehiro to get up to 100... Except it's not after I switch to WS build to use a weapon skill. Even with only 1 hit from the weapon skill lacking store tp, I end up with 99.37tp after 5 hits post-WS... I wish there was a way to correct this without sacrificing my STR gear.

Edited, Oct 3rd 2009 3:40pm by StephisaMAN
#50 Oct 03 2009 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Okay... So I bought Hachiman Kote. I like how it's 6 hit with Soboro Sukehiro to get up to 100... Except it's not after I switch to WS build to use a weapon skill. Even with only 1 hit from the weapon skill lacking store tp, I end up with 99.37tp after 5 hits post-WS... I wish there was a way to correct this without sacrificing my STR gear.


It will all get easier with STP merits.

At 75, Haste/Acc set > all, so yeah, swift belt is pretty much the best you can put on your waste except the haste+6 belts.

Walahra Turban, Swift belt, Fuma's will be 12% haste, that'll jump to 17% haste if you manage to get a byakko haidate from sky. /DRG is the best SJ for a Soboro build @75, as long as you use the wyvern Earring with it for an additional 5% haste.

8/8 GKT merits + /DRG = an additional 13% ACC. That should sort your ACC problems out once your 75, otherwise, if you merit @ MJSP, just pop Marinara pizza.

There should be no need for Attila's earring, if you work at sky, you'll be able to get a Bushimonimi from ZM14 Ark Angels. Thats a nice earring to pair with Brutal for your /WAR tp set, and saves buying a Triumph earring for your ws set. Note though, if you do a Dual Wield job like Nin or Thf, then suppa is one of the best earrings in the game.
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#51 Oct 03 2009 at 7:25 PM Rating: Default
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I have decided that while using Soboro Sukehiro, I will leave the Hachiman Kote on for weapon skilling... I'm losing 5 STR but also gaining the 5 DEX that the Pallas's Bracelets take away. I suppose it's not a huge loss, considering I have +59 STR with just Hasso and no food. It'll be just +54 with the new gloves but it'll at least be a solid 6 hit build. No more 99tp after 5 swings post-WS.

Perfect timing too, I just picked up Tachi of Trials. :) 450 delay

Edited, Oct 3rd 2009 11:31pm by StephisaMAN
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