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#1 Aug 29 2009 at 12:04 PM Rating: Decent
I like both jobs so I understand to the combo is not usually used. What I want to know what wrong with using this combo in exp pt?
#2 Aug 29 2009 at 12:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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It has it's uses. The main argument against it is that it doesnt add anything to your DPS. For example, /WAR gives you attack bonus, double attack, berserk. /DRG gives you attack bonus, accuracy bonus, jumps, and opens up more gear options. /NIN has nothing that directly adds to the DPS of a 2-handed class.

That said, a lot of people still use it for its defensive bonuses, and a lot of party leaders still ask for it because they don't understand how Seigan/Third Eye works (or perhaps because theyve had experiences with SAMs who dont understand how it works...) It has to be said, Utsusemi is more consistent with its damage reduction, and working them together makes for some very solid defensive play. The biggest issue really is that playing defensively in a merit party (beyond reasonable precautions) is going to be slow going.
#3 Aug 29 2009 at 1:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Healers have this idea in their head nowadays that they shouldn't actually have to heal people. Haste cycle, refresh cycle if RDM => afk until next haste cycle is what they want. Having all the DD sub nin so the healer doesn't have to heal anyone destroys your kill speed and destroys your XP, so it's usually frowned upon by DDs because, well, it sucks.
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#4 Aug 29 2009 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
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/NIN is situationally useful against mobs that have strong single target magic, TE wiping AOE, or moves you absolutely can't risk getting hit by. In a merit situation none of those situations is true, in fact SETE tends to work -better- than utsu in exp since it absorbs every hit of a multihit WS (pecking fury, vorpal, rushing). Utsusemi also lowers your DoT considerably (casting time), while /NIN does not give you any of the offensive boosts offered by other subs. It's just a inefficient play style advocated by lazy mages and party leaders that don't trust their members not to be idiots.
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#5 Aug 29 2009 at 2:24 PM Rating: Decent
So.....SAM/NIN is not very good in a regular exp party then.
#6 Aug 29 2009 at 6:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Correct. You should never sub NIN in a meripo. Especially with a competent RDM and competent melees in your party to share hate with.
#7 Aug 29 2009 at 8:51 PM Rating: Good
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SteelBattalion wrote:
So.....SAM/NIN is not very good in a regular exp party then.

Just for clarification, yes, SAM/NIN isn't good in a Meripo, and it's down right atrocious in a regular exp party.

If you need /nin prior to 74, they better have a bona fide reason to ask for it. Ichi is totally not worth it given Seigan/TE. After 74, the only reason I could advocate using it is if you haven't gotten an invite for days and you really wanted those last few merits to cap out something, and they wouldn't invite you without /nin.....

You see how it ends up: if a party is persistent on /nin, they probably aren't doinitright anyway. In general, /nin is for groups that you probably don't trust so much. But if that's the case, you can just go Campaign on /dnc and seek in the meantime for better results.

Offer not valid on all servers. Void where prohibited. Limit one /nin per party (likely BRD). Tax, tag, title, and licensing fees extra. See Forums for details.

This message was brought to you by the Society for Amazing Meripo Setups (SAMs) who always remind you: Never let a friend merit /nin.
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My friend said to me, "I think the weather's trippy." I said, "No, man, it's not the weather that's trippy, perhaps it is the way that we perceive it that is indeed trippy." Then I thought, "Man, I should've just said, 'Yeah.'"
#8 Aug 29 2009 at 10:24 PM Rating: Decent
Thank you all for answering my question. now i know why i havent seen that combo before.
#9 Aug 29 2009 at 10:30 PM Rating: Decent
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No problem :) It's not that there's something inherently wrong bad about the combo, it's just that there's nothing right good (in meripo).

Edit: Semantics, but I like it better this way.

Edited, Aug 30th 2009 2:38am by Drigo
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Mitch Hedberg wrote:
My friend said to me, "I think the weather's trippy." I said, "No, man, it's not the weather that's trippy, perhaps it is the way that we perceive it that is indeed trippy." Then I thought, "Man, I should've just said, 'Yeah.'"
#10 Aug 30 2009 at 2:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Drigo wrote:
No problem :) It's not that there's something inherently wrong bad about the combo, it's just that there's nothing right good (in meripo).

Edit: Semantics, but I like it better this way.

Edited, Aug 30th 2009 2:38am by Drigo


i approve of everything in this post except putting 'but' in the edit explanation.

(comments like that are so wittgenstein; he's always saying that the platonist isn't speaking falsely but rather that s/he's adding "isn't that weird?" to **** that isn't weird)

wittgenstein aside, semantics are good. everyone, repeat after me: there's nothing wrong with talking about semantics. what could be more important in understanding someone than knowing what the words they're using mean? also, i like the wrong/bad right/good distinction quoted above. well, also, there is something inherently wrong with SAM/NIN in meripo... it's like going SAM/no sub. no go.
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#11 Aug 30 2009 at 6:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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milich wrote:
Drigo wrote:
No problem :) It's not that there's something inherently wrong bad about the combo, it's just that there's nothing right good (in meripo).

Edit: Semantics, but I like it better this way.

Edited, Aug 30th 2009 2:38am by Drigo


i approve of everything in this post except putting 'but' in the edit explanation.

(comments like that are so wittgenstein; he's always saying that the platonist isn't speaking falsely but rather that s/he's adding "isn't that weird?" to sh*t that isn't weird)

wittgenstein aside, semantics are good. everyone, repeat after me: there's nothing wrong with talking about semantics. what could be more important in understanding someone than knowing what the words they're using mean? also, i like the wrong/bad right/good distinction quoted above. well, also, there is something inherently wrong with SAM/NIN in meripo... it's like going SAM/no sub. no go.

I must say, I'm a glutton for debate IRL. I find it refreshing and thought provoking. I'm definitely outgunned in this situation, so I'll just add some random thoughts on a cryptic piece of language I'm trying to perfect.

I don't understand when people get all personal while discussing something, so I'd like to piggy back onto your mantra: there's nothing wrong with debating. For that matter, there's nothing wrong with mass-debating either. Why is it looked down upon to get in a big circle and mass-debate? All you gotta remember is that this is an online forum, so if you like to discuss things, followed by a "shut up or I'll punch you in the face", you should go have your mass-debate party somewhere else.

On the other hand, I wouldn't mass-debate all over the place here either, but rather concentrate my assets on one subject. This way, you ensure maximum satisfaction for the time and effort you put in. Doing the former is left for the professionals, and could lead to pain, scorn, or an inflamed red rocket (not referring to the arrow). So, I bow to Milich's professionalism.

tl;dr- Milich wins, I'm just enjoying the ride. :-) Also, the true meaning of words are sometimes hard to gauge without intonation IMO, but I promise you I'm not being hostile.

P.S- I think Wittgenstein kind of looks like Dr. Gregory House.

Edit: I should really try to use preview more often so I can catch grammar problems.


Edited, Aug 30th 2009 10:45am by Drigo
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Mitch Hedberg wrote:
My friend said to me, "I think the weather's trippy." I said, "No, man, it's not the weather that's trippy, perhaps it is the way that we perceive it that is indeed trippy." Then I thought, "Man, I should've just said, 'Yeah.'"
#12 Aug 30 2009 at 10:07 AM Rating: Good
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Drigo wrote:
P.S- I think Wittgenstein kind of looks like Dr. Gregory House.


awesome.

i'm not being hostile either. i thought my reply might be mildly offensive, but hoped it would just be mildly weird. as for the rest of the subsequent post, maybe i'll come back and throw it around later, but for now i must be off.
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#13 Aug 30 2009 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
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milich wrote:
Drigo wrote:
P.S- I think Wittgenstein kind of looks like Dr. Gregory House.


awesome.

i'm not being hostile either. i thought my reply might be mildly offensive, but hoped it would just be mildly weird. as for the rest of the subsequent post, maybe i'll come back and throw it around later, but for now i must be off.


Right on, man. I do a lot of reading but not too much posting. In my experience, you gotta roll with the punches, learn something, and have a good time. I didn't take offense, and I have an appreciation for creativity lol.

On a side not you should totally try these Pringles I'm eating right now. They taste like Outback 100%.

Peace.
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TheTaruTaruCult LS -- Caithsith
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100+3 Alchemy

Mitch Hedberg wrote:
My friend said to me, "I think the weather's trippy." I said, "No, man, it's not the weather that's trippy, perhaps it is the way that we perceive it that is indeed trippy." Then I thought, "Man, I should've just said, 'Yeah.'"
#14 Oct 01 2009 at 1:56 AM Rating: Decent
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I totally just got b***hed out for going sam/thf into a Caedarva Mire imp party...

"You should sub nin man, a good pld doesn't need a thf to hold hate...and sam/thf is only for sky gods. Learn your job."

That's a cute thing to say since I took hate without weapon skilling!

So I told them "Let me show you what happens when I play like I can't put hate on someone else."

Sneak attack gekko (with soboro...?) for 1067. Couldn't get the enemy off me and I died. Simple as that. I'm still ticked about my Marinara Pizza +1 I wasted. lol

The tard PLD who couldn't keep hate also had a terrible habit of standing 20 feet from the monster she's "tanking". So, trick attack was out of the question. Over-confident tard.

So anyway I agree with everyone in the thread who contributed that /nin IS useless for sam in exp parties... and provides no assistance in doing your job well. If you need to avoid getting killed when taking hate, just avoid taking hate altogether by placing your hefty weapon skill damage on the pld! Then you can run behind the enemy and sneak attack+ws for even more damage after that. Yes, I also understand that if there's not a designated tank, then thief sub will not work well other than for sneak attack, for a damage boost that other subs provide better. My point is, if there's a pld, the samurai is better off subbing thf... It's helpful to them, it's helpful to the pld, and even the other dd's who can unleash without taking hate. I had a pld today ask me to run back to whitegate and sub thf, because I went sam/war expecting no tank.

Their justification for subbing ninja is "I've seen sam/nin do 2000 damage gekko" ... Well I'm sure they were also Lv75 fully merited with overwhelm and hagun. The party I was in was Lv69. Besides, if a sam/nin can break 2000, i'm pretty sure a sam/war could do better...

Edited, Oct 1st 2009 6:00am by StephisaMAN
#15 Oct 01 2009 at 2:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Myssu wrote:
/NIN has nothing that directly adds to the DPS of a 2-handed class.


Maybe not directly, but subbing nin can let you full time Hasso, rather than having to stick largely to Seigan. At 75 Hasso gives you 10 Str, 10 Acc and 10 Haste, which are a nice boost to your damage, especially in high haste situations such as merit parties.

Obviously it is situational. If you can go /drg or /war and full time Hasso you would do even more damage, but if you take too much damage this wouldn't be sustainable. If you /war with Berserk and full time Hasso, you could be a huge drain on mp.

milich wrote:
there's nothing wrong with talking about semantics


I hate anti-semantic people.
#16 Oct 01 2009 at 4:00 AM Rating: Decent
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I love when ppl say "/NIN destroys your XP". Kinda triggers the "your DDs suck" thoughts in me.

The counter-sense however is that the better your DDs are, the less you'll need the over-protection of Utsusemi. /NIN with good melees will (agreeing 100% with Mysso, who in my humble opinion gave the best answer here) severely slow down the kill rate, although that doesn't necessarily means breaking chains. Thus it doesn't kill your XP. At most, you'll need about 5 extra minutes to get the same XP in a several hours long party (this of course, can be considered fallacy, but so can any empiric argument saying otherwise).

But coming back to the original argument, if your melees are good enough to keep chain as a full /NIN party, then they sure are good enough to share hate properly and kill mobs before they can eat anyone's SETE.

Strictly to merit parties, I think Drigo got it perfectly right with this:
Quote:
In general, /nin is for groups that you probably don't trust so much

Gotta add to that however the willingness to spend time with such party in detriment of spending time forming / waiting a better one.

Outside merit parties there are (maybe "should still be" would be more appropriated) several uses for /NIN, but this is given certain specific activities, and I'm not sure of your interest about them.
#17 Oct 01 2009 at 4:29 AM Rating: Decent
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I have been pondering something as of late.

With all the hate of /NIN, what do the alternatives provide us? Its been shown that attack does almost nothing for our WS's. The #1 reason to use /WAR is for berserk, with the #2 being a 10% DA. But since we're Brutal + Pole most of the time anyway, and DA has diminishing returns, do we really get that much from it?

Personally I'm always /DRG for the extra 5% haste (puts me at 22~25% gear haste depending on camp) and the extra controlled TP from jumps. But it would be an interesting comparison SAM/WAR who had to use Seigan for defense (thus precluding the 10% 10 acc bonus of Hasso) vs the SAM/NIN who was good enough at using shadows with Hasso (learn to cancel it out and reapply) to keep Hasso up full time.

I really wonder what the actual split for Hasso/Seigan is for a SAM in an average merit pt, not the BRD + COR fulltime Hasso with outside healers and relic melee parties.
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when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#18 Oct 01 2009 at 5:55 AM Rating: Decent
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There was a lot of math done on the SAM/WAR vs. SAM/DRG issue on KI I believe it was, not too far back. I'll try to find it for you
#19 Oct 01 2009 at 6:40 AM Rating: Decent
Contradiction wrote:
Maybe not directly, but subbing nin can let you full time Hasso, rather than having to stick largely to Seigan. At 75 Hasso gives you 10 Str, 10 Acc and 10 Haste, which are a nice boost to your damage, especially in high haste situations such as merit parties.
Yeahhh, except that your should be canceling hasso anyways to cast utsu, casting utsu takes time while SETE is instant, and SETE does a better job of protecting you from merit mob WS. In all actuality, ignoring all the other benefits from melee subs, you'd probably be better off dmg wise switching between hasso and SETE regardless.
Quote:
(this of course, can be considered fallacy, but so can any empiric argument saying otherwise)
I found this statement hilarious.
Quote:
With all the hate of /NIN, what do the alternatives provide us?
For merit level stuff my vote is for /DRG. Haste is hawt.
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#20 Oct 01 2009 at 7:28 AM Rating: Good
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Shinta I normally would agree with you. I prefer SAM/DRG for the reasons I've stated above. But my question was the realistic percentage time that a SAM would have Hasso up vs Seigan. Both are on a 1m timer so there is a gap between when the monster is no longer kicking your a$$ and when you can reapply Hasso. Or more importantly, the amount of time you have Seigan up to prevent the monster from kicking your a$$. The better the player, the more time they would have Seigan up. Also seigan isn't preemptive, the player must manually activate it upon being on the receiving end of the mobs fury. This means you get hate and the monster hits you before you've even had time to react, hopefully by the second to third hit you've activated your defense's.

As for canceling out Hasso to reapply Utsusemi, depends on how bad you want to optimize things. There is a windower plugin (ohh no!!) called Cancel. It allows you to cancel out buff icons from a macro. Basically you put it in your Utsusemi macro so its instant. Then you hit Hasso again immediately after you see the icon appear (regardless of the animation). Ni itself doesn't take any real time to cast, its Ichi that sucks the most.

But still... I know SAM/DRG full time Hasso would kick the a$$ of anything a SAM/NIN could do... but what if I'm forced to full time (or nearly so) Seigan?

Its a chick vs egg arguement.. the better the player... the more defensive options they need. Unless they always merit with other players of the exact or higher skill / gear / merit level.
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#21StephisaMAN, Posted: Oct 01 2009 at 7:58 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Ahh yes another good reason I like subbing thief, full time Hasso won't get me killed! 9% haste at my level, one more and it's 10%.
#22 Oct 01 2009 at 8:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Ahh yes another good reason I like subbing thief, full time Hasso won't get me killed! 9% haste at my level, one more and it's 10%.

10% base haste + soboro sukehiro = ****



Quote:
I totally just got b***hed out for going sam/thf into a Caedarva Mire imp party...

"You should sub nin man, a good pld doesn't need a thf to hold hate...and sam/thf is only for sky gods. Learn your job."


While I don't agree with the "sam/thf is only for sky gods" portion of this, when did /THF become an acceptable sub for XP PTs? It's not as bad as, say, /WHM would be but wow, really?

The problem with the wording of these two comments is that they seem to suggest that /THF and /NIN as being interchangeable as subjobs. They are not.

If you need /NIN, chances are there's a nasty AoE or single-target spell you need to not be hit by. If you need /THF, chances are you need to keep the mob fixed on the tank while mages and other DDs chip away at it (Sky Gods, HNMs, etc).

As Shintasama pointed out: In an XP/Merit party neither of these situations is true. If you're /WAR and hitting the ground too often (read: at all) because you're pulling a disproportionate amount of hate you, your DoT and your party's XP/hr would be best served by you holding back, researching enmity, and riding hate lines a bit more attentively than you would be switching to /NIN or /THF.

Edit: That said, sh*t happens and sometimes a Skoffin will drop a Fang Rush/Deadly Dive on you the split second you pull hate with shadows or TE down. The point is, this should be a rare occurrence. If you start off a fight dropping an lolepeen Tachi: Yukikaze against an imp before the PLD has time to Flash/Voke, you deserve the facerape you're likely to receive

Edited, Oct 1st 2009 12:24pm by Beltenebros
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Retired. For reals this time.
#23 Oct 01 2009 at 8:49 AM Rating: Decent
saevellakshmi wrote:
Shinta I normally would agree with you.
wait, what? lies!

SETE/Hasso percentage is going to vary wildly by player, party and camp. I'm pretty aggressive, so as long as the people I'm with aren't worthless I'll leave hasso up as long as my mage is good and just switch to SETE if I feel it's warranted. "Perfect" defense just isn't necessary in a merit situation.

4seconds/1.5seconds seems like a lifetime when you're swinging every 2.7 seconds, it's actually a much bigger dmg hit than you're giving it credit for. I do use //cancel, but if I'm in a situation where I'd be fulltiming seigen I'd need to be constantly casting utsu and hasso wouldn't be available to reapply most of the time.

Belten wrote:
As Shintasama pointed out: In an XP/Merit party neither of these situations is true. If you're /WAR and hitting the ground too often (read: at all) because you're pulling a disproportionate amount of hate you, your DoT and your party's XP/hr would be best served by you holding back, researching enmity, and riding hate lines a bit more attentively than you would be switching to /NIN or /THF.
Well, I think the real problem with using /THF in exp is you shouldn't have a tank to TA in the first place.

srsly people, wtf
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Winston Churchill wrote:
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#24 Oct 01 2009 at 9:00 AM Rating: Default
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Beltenebros wrote:
Quote:
Ahh yes another good reason I like subbing thief, full time Hasso won't get me killed! 9% haste at my level, one more and it's 10%.

10% base haste + soboro sukehiro = ****



Quote:
I totally just got b***hed out for going sam/thf into a Caedarva Mire imp party...

"You should sub nin man, a good pld doesn't need a thf to hold hate...and sam/thf is only for sky gods. Learn your job."


While I don't agree with the "sam/thf is only for sky gods" portion of this, when did /THF become an acceptable sub for XP PTs? It's not as bad as, say, /WHM would be but wow, really?

The problem with the wording of these two comments is that they seem to suggest that /THF and /NIN as being interchangeable as subjobs. They are not.

If you need /NIN, chances are there's a nasty AoE or single-target spell you need to not be hit by. If you need /THF, chances are you need to keep the mob fixed on the tank while mages and other DDs chip away at it (Sky Gods, HNMs, etc).

As Shintasama pointed out: In an XP/Merit party neither of these situations is true. If you're /WAR and hitting the ground too often (read: at all) because you're pulling a disproportionate amount of hate you, your DoT and your party's XP/hr would be best served by you holding back, researching enmity, and riding hate lines a bit more attentively than you would be switching to /NIN or /THF.

Edit: That said, sh*t happens and sometimes a Skoffin will drop a Fang Rush/Deadly Dive on you the split second you pull hate with shadows or TE down. The point is, this should be a rare occurrence. If you start off a fight dropping an lolepeen Tachi: Yukikaze against an imp before the PLD has time to Flash/Voke, you deserve the facerape you're likely to receive

Edited, Oct 1st 2009 12:24pm by Beltenebros


The reason I like subbing thief is because I can go all out and not pull hate most of the time. I can pretty much get away with anything after a trick attack + tachi gekko on a decent pld. I am not saying it is interchangable with /nin... In fact I think /nin is pretty stupid for a lot of jobs.

Quote:
Well, I think the real problem with using /THF in exp is you shouldn't have a tank to TA in the first place.


Wait... what? o_o

Edited, Oct 1st 2009 1:11pm by StephisaMAN
#25 Oct 01 2009 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Quote:
Well, I think the real problem with using /THF in exp is you shouldn't have a tank to TA in the first place.


Wait... what? o_o


I think Shin's referring to meritting exp here, in which case I'd agree with him. If you're not bird burning at 75, however, there probably should be a designated tank.

Quote:
The reason I like subbing thief is because I can go all out and not pull hate most of the time. I can pretty much get away with anything after a trick attack + tachi gekko on a decent pld. I am not saying it is interchangable with /nin... In fact I think /nin is pretty stupid for a lot of jobs.


I'd still /WAR and hold back a bit (even if it meant full-timing Seigan) but that's me. THF has a lower DoT than /WAR (or even /DRG, pre-Wyvern Earring) but if it fits the playstyle you prefer and find people willing to accommodate your preference... more power to ya.
____________________________
SAM TP | SAM WS |
For a greater economy shall follow us and it will be outdone. And a greater autonomy shall follow us and it too will be outdone. And a greater feeling shall follow Love and it too we will blow to dust.
Retired. For reals this time.
#26 Oct 01 2009 at 10:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah that's true, it depends on how the party is setup mainly. If there's no actual tank then /thf is almost more useless than /smn lol... Sneak attack would be the only thing to bat an eye at, and even then it's maybe 150%~ of the normal ws damage, once per minute...
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