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Another Hagun vs. Soboro Q. Follow

#1 Jun 17 2009 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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I'm leveling Sam up right now. I don't have a Hagun, but I'm starting an Enm static with the hopes of getting one by the time I can equip it. I also have a War and Cor friend I plan on meritting with.

That being said, I'm still a little confused on how Double attack affects Soboro. I've been looking into it, and I'm still a little confused. Here's my question. Say I'm in merits with my mentioned friends, and we get the Double attack roll. I'm assuming that the usefulness of Soboro will be reduced and Hagun would be a better choice. By the way, which rolls would you guys recommend with Sam and War.

I checked quite a few threads and I saw a few conflicting posts on Soboro + /war + brutal, but never anything on DA roll from Cor with a War in the pt. If the answer is common knowledge please forgive my ignorance.
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#2 Jun 17 2009 at 4:57 PM Rating: Good
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+DA still increases Soboro's DMG, just not by as much as it would increase Hagun's


I personally prefer some combination of SAM/DRK/COR rolls over WAR
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#3 Jun 17 2009 at 5:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fermion wrote:
That being said, I'm still a little confused on how Double attack affects Soboro. I've been looking into it, and I'm still a little confused. Here's my question. Say I'm in merits with my mentioned friends, and we get the Double attack roll. I'm assuming that the usefulness of Soboro will be reduced and Hagun would be a better choice. By the way, which rolls would you guys recommend with Sam and War.
I was trying to determinate what is the best option for Cor rolls the other day and got to the conclusion that Hunters'(Acc) and Chaos(Att) will always give you the best results as long a both are efficiently utilized.

Disclaimer: Cor roll should be used only when you are killing faster than the repop time in your camp can afford, in other cases a DD roll should return more xp/hr

The thing with merit parties is that Hunters's roll will be more or less wasted as long as you DD's don't blatantly suck, leaving Cors with other 2 options War and Sam rolls.

With soboro averaging 1.98 attacks per round DA is pretty much a waste for TP, however you still get full benefit from it on WS, although your fellow War will get full benefit for both TP and WS(providing he isn't a ridill/joy user)

Samurai roll on the other hand will be really powerful since you have 66.6% chance to change your 6-hit build in a 5-hit build, and if you fellow war is /Nin with a 7 hit 504 delay GAxe(the most common case) 95.2% of the time he will get a 6-hit build with Sam Roll.

I hope it helps.

Ken.
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#4 Jun 17 2009 at 8:23 PM Rating: Good
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DA is good for gaining tp, but isn't particularly good for SAM WS either due to 1hit + highish fTP nature.

Hunters is almost completely wasted.

Chaos is decentish for SAM (increases melee but doesn't really help WS in merits), but amazing for DRK/DRG/1h/raging rush

SAM roll is a huge boost to the biggest part of most DD's dmg as well as increasing chance at SCs etc.

COR roll looks bad on paper, but because we usually don't get the full benefit of the other rolls it's actaully pretty competitive for best roll.
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Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#5 Jun 18 2009 at 1:02 AM Rating: Good
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Shinta wrote:
COR roll looks bad on paper, but because we usually don't get the full benefit of the other rolls it's actaully pretty competitive for best roll.


Once @ meripo level, if your merit pty is'nt getting constant chains until sum1 KO's, goes afk, or after 2hours+ when ppl start to get lazy, then its not a proper meripo, so @ merit level, Corsair's roll is kinda standard. Once the cor is merited, 10/10 T2 merits really helps the COR with rolling lucky's 10's & 11's, so the gain from Corsair's roll is to ITG.

Shinta wrote:
Hunters is almost completely wasted.

Chaos is decentish for SAM (increases melee but doesn't really help WS in merits), but amazing for DRK/DRG/1h/raging rush


yeah, hunters roll for good sam's is more or less wasted, Chaos roll is excellant for Soboro, and excellant for Hagun too once @ high haste. For ws, its obviously doing nothing @ merit level, but on HNM type mobs, its obviously a nice alround buff for tp/ws.

Shinta wrote:

DA is good for gaining tp, but isn't particularly good for SAM WS either due to 1hit + highish fTP nature.


Its good for TP and for WS. I'm not a big fan of the roll, but I'd rather have Fighter's in high haste situations then stp. I think your wrong with DA not being particulary good for Y/G/K however...

WS @ 140STR @ 100% TP with Soboro, forgettin cratio (as it is 100% not needed)

(40 + 12 + 87) * 1.5625 = 217

WS @ 140STR @ 100% TP with Hagun forgettin cratio

(75 + 16 + 87) * 1.875 = 333

If a DA procs on either (added number is just the WS + fSTR + WSC for those that don't know, DA procs only have 1.0 ftp)...


Soboro: 217 + 139 = 356 (64% dmg increase)

Hagun: 333 + 178 = 511 (53% dmg increase)


a DA proc is worth more than the martial bonus itself @100%tp 'if one procs'. Unfortunatly, it doesn't show the whole picture, because a DA actually has to go off for the huge dmg increase to occur. Then ofc, theres those times when you get the 1% tp returns, where you've actually missed the main part of the ws, but hit the DA (its that, that should take ws% above 95% when parsing in meripo's).

Again, in meripo's, a good cor should be giving 15% roll10, 18% roll'lucky, 24% roll'11 (With a WAR in pty, Fighters roll w/o a WAR in pty is 'P A N T S')

For a SAM/DRG w/Brutal, rolling lucky, 10 or 11, Fighters roll is a 14.2% - 22.9% DoT incease

For SAM/WAR w/Brutal, Fighter's roll should be a 13% - 20.9% DoT increase.


Conclusion then, that Fighters roll favours /DRG, favours Soboro's ws's, favours Hagun's DoT.

Need sum1 to compare those numbers, to Chaos roll with and w/o a drk in pty, as the roll is primarily used roll whether drk is presant or not. I got my roll %'s from wiki.

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#6 Jun 18 2009 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
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I think your wrong with DA not being particulary good for Y/G/K however...
\It's ~50% increase as you mentioned (don't forget WS gorget +fTP), when it procs. Also, for comparison, if guillotine proc'ed DA on every hit it would be ~101% increase. The expected value for fighters roll is ~12-14% +DA depending on roll strat/merits (derv. from karinya's COR guide). Say you have Hagun/DRG w/ brutal and pole:

non-DA = 178*1.975 = 352
DA = 178*1.975+178 = 530

going from 7->21% DA (+14% DA, on the high end for arguments sake)
.93*352+.07*530= 364
.79*353+.21*530= 389

=> ~6.9% increase in WS dmg w/ Hagun and /DRG

W/ /WAR it's lower, w/ soboro your total dmg increase is much lower b/c the melee dmg increase is ~0.7% instead of ~13%


vs. ~25% more WS, increased #SC, increased fTP from over-tp



Chaos roll w/o a DRK I probably wouldn't use, w/ a DRK you're looking at ~33% increase in melee dmg and WS dmg for multihit WS users, but no real increase in YGK dmg. This gets veryvery nice w/ Polearm though.

Edited, Jun 18th 2009 1:49pm by shintasama
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
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