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#1 Jun 15 2009 at 4:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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So, made a merit pty last night, and thought i'd give DNC a go. I usually just go for speed, so a BRD & 2xMarch is a necessity for me. A 2nd BRD, or a COR is a luxury and obviously grab one if I can.

Last night, i had a BRD, COR, DNC support eating carbonara.

Usual Delay in meripo's this last week has been

450 * (1- 0.55) = 202.5 (3.375 secs per att round)

and

450 * (1 - 0.65) = 157.5 (2.625 secs per att round)

Depending on How long I can keep Hasso up before I hit low HP.



The DNC, and his 10% haste Samba, brought my delay down to 112.5 (1.875 secs per att round) giving a boost to my DoT of 40%., or a speed increase of 40%, however you want to look at it.

The speed increase when those orange dots start flying everywhere is so unbelievably visible, the DoT from Hagun was amazing. Gaining enough TP to WS from swinging the Hagun every 7.5 - 9.4secs was just too good. The WAR and me could have kept the chain's going just from swinging our weapons as each hit from our weapons took ~3% of mobs HP off.

In any case, im sure many off you have BRD + DNC support now, if not then its well worth trying. I used to just want a BRD, then i'd make a meripo, but now, I want a BRD + DNC.

A Soboro /DRG setup instead of Hagun /War would actually hit the 80% haste cap like this. The addition of the 5% Haste earring would be worth a staggering 20% speed increase. I can't imagine what that would be like, but im thinking im gonna try it soon.

EDIT: I was just thinking also, im pretty sure Hagun /DRG would out perform Hagun /War in this setup. A 20% DoT boost earring, 6% Dot boost from acc trait and the extra tp & ws's from jumps has to beat 10% DA, zerk, 10att bonus JT & warcry.

Edited, Jun 15th 2009 12:41pm by Sandmasterr
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#2 Jun 15 2009 at 6:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Nice find!

I'm glad some people are going out of their way to show how nice a DNC is in meripo. All the proof I had were words coming out of my mouth but seeing numbers always makes people believe.

Thanks =] I'll be sure to point people to here if they ever bad mouth my DNC again!
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#3 Jun 15 2009 at 6:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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now if I could only find a DNC above lv37...
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#4 Jun 15 2009 at 6:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'd just like to say I'm delighted to see that someone appreciates the value of Haste Samba, especially on top of other forms of Haste. You don't see that often nowadays (if at all!).

I imagine that you would find having a DNC support would also mean you can afford to be far more aggressive with Hasso (regardless of sub job); hence, you could maintain that level of output for longer.

Not to mention the modest impact of Box Step! Hehe.
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#5 Jun 15 2009 at 6:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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I imagine that you would find having a DNC support would also mean you can afford to be far more aggressive with Hasso (regardless of sub job); hence, you could maintain that level of output for longer.


As DNC I tell people to go all out and not worry about being defensive since DNC curing power is just that damned good. (Yes, I understand we aren't AS GOOD as a WHM when it comes to curing multiple targets.)
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#6 Jun 15 2009 at 8:16 AM Rating: Good
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id come be your dancer >.>

but im ALWAYS asked to go brd... so I just say no then change to drg and solo some stuff or something lol.

really nice find. gonna have to try it.
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#7 Jun 15 2009 at 9:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I imagine that you would find having a DNC support would also mean you can afford to be far more aggressive with Hasso (regardless of sub job); hence, you could maintain that level of output for longer.


Yeah, being able to keep Hasso up as long as possilble is so important in helping you play as aggresively as you can.

On top of providing an ITG haste buff, the cure power and extra DoT is a blessing too.

Make sure the other DD(s) is a similar lvl / gear to you, because u obviously want hate to be 50/50. It wouldn't take much (lack of haste gearz?) to push it so u end up with hate 80-90% of the time taking all fun out of it.

Just make sure the DNC has 5/5 HS, the BRD has march+2 instrument (i've had one w/o and bought them the cheaper instrument of the 2 AH ones), other DD (or other 2 DD) are equally geared, and u got a pretty sweet meripo.

I merited MNK when everyone wanted War's, mnk's and nin's before the 2H update, I never bothered meriting Nin because the Nin merit specific's suck, so getting back to meriting has been fun, and the the way ppl merit has changed (for the better), merit points just fly in.

DNC ftw tho!
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#8 Jun 15 2009 at 10:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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heh. BRD / DNC / RDM / 3 DD or BRD / DNC / RDM / COR / 2 DD is easily my favorite party setup.

BRD/NIN
DNC/NIN
RDM/WHM
COR/RNG
DRG/WHM
MNK/WAR
= what i'd most like,

BRD/NIN
DNC/NIN
RDM/WHM
COR/RNG
DRK/SAM
SAM/DRG
= would also be quite nice.
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#9 Jun 15 2009 at 10:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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My aim for up-comming pty:

RDM/WHM
BRD/NIN
DNC/NIN
COR/RNG
SAM/DRG Hagun or Soboro swinging @ 80% Haste
SAM/DRG Hagun or Soboro swinging @ 80% Haste

MNK's can only reach 70% haste, /SAM 2H's can reach 72-75%. Just one thing standing im my way. DRG=28 :/

Like u mentioned in your post Pahn, Soboro would be that fast, gear changing would really start to become messed up. Hagun would by far be the best weapon for me, as I'm still relatively new to SAM.

Here's a sub question: If you don't want to eat Carbonara's for 6HIT, would wearing Dusk gloves (a 15% DoT Boost going from 77% to 80% Haste) and the extra 0.1-0.2ftp on ws out weigh the loss of 6HIT?



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#10 Jun 15 2009 at 11:03 AM Rating: Good
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Sandmasterr wrote:
Here's a sub question: If you don't want to eat Carbonara's for 6HIT, would wearing Dusk gloves (a 15% DoT Boost going from 77% to 80% Haste) and the extra 0.1-0.2ftp on ws out weigh the loss of 6HIT?


it looks to me like dusk gloves would win there, yeah. you'd get 15% more melee DoT, and something like 15% more WS. suppose it's 10% more WS, and for the sake of argument suppose that a 6-hit would get you the full 20% more WS. if you do 40% melee, 60% WS, it's

7-hit
40*1.15 = 46
60*1.1 = 66
total: 112

6-hit
40*1 = 40
60*1.2 = 72
total: 112

but of course there would be swings past 100% with either setup, making melee DoT matter a bit more and diminishing the gains of the 6hit. there's also meditate (though jumps would disproportionately favor the 6hit by a small amount).

the comparison above is a bit illicit in favor of 6-hit anyway, since my usual 60/40 split is with a 6-hit, so the improvement it provides isn't 40*1 + 60*1.2 (or 1.whatever), but rather X*1 + Y*1.whatever = 100, if that makes sense.
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#11 Jun 15 2009 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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DNC is an underrated support in merit PT :(

If only ppl don't impose their role to be healer, they are amazing.
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#12 Jun 17 2009 at 12:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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Just wondered, if anyone has, or is going to try SAM/DRG + [insert GKT here] with the 2xMarch BRD + merited Haste samba DNC support.

Especially SAM's who are able to hit 25% Haste /DRG. I'd like to know about merit pty experiances @ 80% Haste.

It's not hard to setup either as long as you got Swift, Haidate, Wyvern earring, Turban, haste gloves, fuma's.

It was amazing watching my SAM swing @ 75% Haste, and visibly see-ing the huge noticable difference between 65% & 75% haste (waiting for the dnc to hit the mob to start the Haste Daze up), 80% has to be jaw-dropping. (gogo 1.5sec att rounds!)
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#13 Jun 17 2009 at 2:27 AM Rating: Decent
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I have 24% haste on my SAM/DRG and 5/5 haste samba merit on DNC.

But I can't be both :<
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#14 Jun 17 2009 at 2:33 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I have 24% haste on my SAM/DRG and 5/5 haste samba merit on DNC.


**** usukane

Im gonna start doing salvage again at some point just for those **** feet.

Edit: if only sam could wear blitz ring, it'd be a 5% increase going from 79 to 80% haste :/





Edited, Jun 17th 2009 10:37am by Sandmasterr
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#15 Jun 17 2009 at 11:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sandmasterr wrote:
Just wondered, if anyone has, or is going to try SAM/DRG + [insert GKT here] with the 2xMarch BRD + merited Haste samba DNC support.

Especially SAM's who are able to hit 25% Haste /DRG. I'd like to know about merit pty experiances @ 80% Haste.

It's not hard to setup either as long as you got Swift, Haidate, Wyvern earring, Turban, haste gloves, fuma's.

It was amazing watching my SAM swing @ 75% Haste, and visibly see-ing the huge noticable difference between 65% & 75% haste (waiting for the dnc to hit the mob to start the Haste Daze up), 80% has to be jaw-dropping. (gogo 1.5sec att rounds!)


it's exactly like staff hundred fists (with hagun at least). soboro more like h2h hundred fists:).
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#16 Jun 17 2009 at 1:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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I saw this happen last night meriting. Our sam complained she couldnt spend all the tp she was getting, and was often WSing in the 150 because she would just drop down from a jump and soboro would proc and get another attack round.

Double march, haste samba, haste, DRK roll, cor Roll.

6 hit build? Bah. More like a 3 second build.
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#17 Jun 17 2009 at 1:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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now if I could only find a DNC above lv37...


75 DNCs never seek for meripo because no one ever invites them, lol... most people don't understand how good Haste Samba is with double March + Haste spell.
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#18 Jun 17 2009 at 1:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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TheKhory wrote:
I saw this happen last night meriting. Our sam complained she couldnt spend all the tp she was getting, and was often WSing in the 150 because she would just drop down from a jump and soboro would proc and get another attack round.

Double march, haste samba, haste, DRK roll, cor Roll.

6 hit build? Bah. More like a 3 second build.
This is the only way to merit lol
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#19 Jun 17 2009 at 6:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lothiriel wrote:
Quote:
now if I could only find a DNC above lv37...


75 DNCs never seek for meripo because no one ever invites them, lol... most people don't understand how good Haste Samba is with double March + Haste spell.


they really don't. as i mentioned in the post i linked, with dual march and haste spell, hasso, and good haste gear, 5/5 merited haste samba adds more damage than inviting another strong DD. 70% to 80% haste is a 50% DoT increase. that isn't just "doing better personally," that's (with 3 non-DNC DDs in party) adding 1.5 party member's worth of damage just by putting up 1 spell. if people understood this, they'd invite DNCs-_-.

Edited, Jun 17th 2009 10:43pm by milich
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#20 Jun 18 2009 at 1:16 AM Rating: Good
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TheKhory wrote:
I saw this happen last night meriting. Our sam complained she couldnt spend all the tp she was getting, and was often WSing in the 150 because she would just drop down from a jump and soboro would proc and get another attack round.


I had this problem, but it was with hagun, but the reason was because the other DD was falling behind.

Hes a good 'meripo' partner of mine, and when i added a DNC, he wasn't happy. He wanted a 2nd brd or SAM or WAR or DRK or w/e. So with me and him only main DD, he came WAR/NIN axe/joy becasue he said 'he'd take to much hate otherwise' (his war is merited and knows my sam is new of the block with only stp + 1/5 overwhelm).

This is why i said its very 'IMPORTANT' to make sure the main DD in your pty is equal, because you don't want hate most the time, because that just means less hasso, and like Pahn said, with HS up, and hasso down, your slowing yourself down by 50% (/DRG with 25% haste gear etc etc etc)

If my friend had brought his GAXE, it would have been very very competitive, ill be making some BRD+DNC pty's this weekend tho, so ill seehow it goes.

Just wish my drg was 37 (got 29 - 31 yesterday morning after work, meh, maybe 75SAM/31DRG would be enough oO)
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#21 Jun 30 2009 at 11:58 PM Rating: Good
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Just to add a couple more things that i've noticed from going DNC + BRD support:

*@ Bird camp, 3 DD's can full time Hasso. Last 2 pty's have both been @ bird camp, once with a WHM/BLM, other with a RDM/WHM and both were able to keep haste cycles up, dia mob and cure us with the DNC. Many times, you can just use TE (w/o seigan) when the birds ws is due, which is just an added feel good factor when your using your 1 TE to anticipate to block a PF.

*The Bard has to be special, because keeping the mobs comming and buffs up isn't easy.

*At mamool camp, the 2 times i've gone with this setup we've had to use Seigan, but they have been with COR's so only 2 DD.

The last 4 meripo's I've had have all been /DRG using hagun. My only issue, is When using WS. Your swinging so fast @ that haste, when you ws, there is an annoying horribly noticable pause inbetween att rounds. I'm beginning to think whether its worth keeping some of my haste on during WS. Mainly, Wyvern earring, Turban, Haidate. This keeps 15% haste on during ws but losing 13STR during WS.

Losing 25% HAste when TP-ing @ 80%cap to ws is over doubling your current att speed for that round.

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#22 Nov 02 2009 at 9:03 AM Rating: Good
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awesome to read this.. i really never seek on DNC my dancer cos i NEVER get invited to merit parties. (short of linkshell parties)

butlets not forget, the dancer is getting TP even faster than everyone else,
and the few times i have gotten into a merit party with friends i can haste samba.. support heal AND pull off 1.2k+ dancing edges! nom nom nom
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#23 Nov 02 2009 at 9:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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I have a well geared, full merit Dancer awaiting invite on Midgardsormr! I am CONSTANTLY seeking during Campaign, crafting - etc.

DNC is my favorite job but eveeeryone knows I have BRD as well - makes it impossible. Heck even my LS makes me BRD despite other members having BRD as well. :l

People just don't realize the potential DNC can bring into a party. Haste Samba is awesome - and DNC can DD in their own right as well - on top of being able to drop off emergency 650-700hp Waltzes.

Gogogo!



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#24 Dec 01 2009 at 3:42 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
the extra tp & ws's from jumps


Actually in the instance youre referring to, by attacking so fast, you would be losing TP/sec by using jump instead of just melee attacks.


Btw, i did try this as a nin in a meripo.... Brd Rdm Nin Sam Dnc Sam

even in my ws gear (non haste set) i was occasionally glitching, with haste setup, thats not even all that good, i glitched so bad it was unreal.

Edited, Dec 1st 2009 4:50pm by Aryden
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#25 Dec 01 2009 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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Actually in the instance youre referring to, by attacking so fast, you would be losing TP/sec by using jump instead of just melee attacks
You can attack during the jump animation, the actual added JA delay is less than 1.5s so you're still coming out ahead, particularly with jump's VIT mod and high jump's -enm.
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#26 Dec 02 2009 at 3:48 AM Rating: Good
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It probably works out about even, although when this is done by a SAM with 25% haste armor + Hasso, you will be attacking every 1.5secs, so use of jumps is best straight after WS, that way theres no lag 2-3secs later when its time to ws again.

Tbh, the bonus the jumps give are a lot less 'in comparison' to the earring when @ 80% haste. Getting a 25% DoT boost from the haste and ~5.5%+ from Acc Bonus is the main reason for /DRG @ capped haste.

I personally find Soboro @ 80% haste very difficult to manage because ja & ws animation/pauses push you over the limits of what your trying to do (maybe theres some windower add-ons that would help with this?)

@ 70% Haste, its all very manageable, /DRG jumps and all, but when you speed up another 50%...



My problem atm is finding a sam on sylph that fully understands what having a dnc in meripo means. A couple of well equipped war's and sam's I tend to merit with are good players and well equipped, but don't really understand the mechanics behind things, and always want a 2nd BRD instead of a DNC
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#27 Dec 02 2009 at 4:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Could always dat swap the animation to a shorter one. The delay would be the same, but the visual would go by faster, if that'd help you at all.
#28 Dec 02 2009 at 10:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sand wrote:
My problem atm is finding a sam on sylph that fully understands what having a dnc in meripo means. A couple of well equipped war's and sam's I tend to merit with are good players and well equipped, but don't really understand the mechanics behind things, and always want a 2nd BRD instead of a DNC
Yeahhh, I was PTing with a unnamed apoc DRK the other week who insisted on waiting around for a 2nd BRD (for 2x min on top of our chaos roll COR) instead of picking up the LFG DNC, I was pretty miffed.
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#29 Dec 02 2009 at 5:48 PM Rating: Good
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Sandmasterr wrote:
I personally find Soboro @ 80% haste very difficult to manage because ja & ws animation/pauses push you over the limits of what your trying to do (maybe theres some windower add-ons that would help with this?)


I've heard SpellCast is compatible with weaponskills. If you used it only for the beforespell/afterspell triggers to swap gear that might fill exactly what you're asking for.

Edit to clarify: it might mitigate that slight delay in equipment swaps that causes you to get an attack round in while wearing your WS gear.

Edited, Dec 2nd 2009 5:52pm by Ranzera
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#30 Dec 02 2009 at 5:48 PM Rating: Good
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At what point would Haste Samba be "more" worth it than another bard? Just 5/5 merited?
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#31 Dec 02 2009 at 6:05 PM Rating: Good
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w/ GK pretty much always, for polearm ~3-4merits depending on how well the SAM is geared.
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#32 Dec 02 2009 at 7:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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don't forget that DNC trying to DD can also be almost as potent as a more common DD class, can easily tp in 30 seconds making it possible to ws on almost every mob.
#33 Dec 02 2009 at 10:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Haamyo wrote:
don't forget that DNC trying to DD can also be almost as potent as a more common DD class, can easily tp in 30 seconds making it possible to ws on almost every mob.
This is true, combined with additional cures means DNC is almost always better.
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#34 Dec 03 2009 at 2:04 AM Rating: Good
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Yes DNC can be completely awesome once they have 5/5 in Haste Samba. My only caveat is that the haste from HS isn't instant nor is it always. The DNC must hit the monster before you do in order for you to get the effects. When your rapidly changing targets as you do in a merit PT, this can often lead to people missing the haste effect on their first attack round but having it on all other subsequent attack rounds. Just something to think about when doing the math.
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#35 Dec 03 2009 at 3:37 AM Rating: Good
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At what point would Haste Samba be "more" worth it than another bard? Just 5/5 merited?


For 2H job's wielding their main weapon /SAM, 5/5HS & DNC's DD will always be better than double Minuet from the 2nd BRD.

For DoT jobs (like DNC, MNK, NIN, THF) the att from double minuet is a lot more potent (for a couple of reasons) and those jobs can also not use hasso, so it'd need some math to certify whether a 2nd BRD or a merited DNC is better for those jobs on paper, but i'm pretty sure the 10% Haste & extra DD would win.

In an 'intense' meripo, a 2nd BRD doing his job properly will also add additional pulling power.

When you have 2-3pimp DD's hasted to the max, the 1 BRD has the toughest job of all. The perfect pty would probably have the COR assist the BRD pulling (especially as most COR's don't manage to master the DD side of their job). For a good DDcor, it would depend on whether the pty would benefit more from the sometimes needed pulling assistance, or whether the BRD is a god and can manage on his own.

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#36 Dec 03 2009 at 3:53 AM Rating: Good
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Sandmasterr wrote:
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At what point would Haste Samba be "more" worth it than another bard? Just 5/5 merited?


For 2H job's wielding their main weapon /SAM, 5/5HS & DNC's DD will always be better than double Minuet from the 2nd BRD.

For DoT jobs (like DNC, MNK, NIN, THF) the att from double minuet is a lot more potent (for a couple of reasons) and those jobs can also not use hasso, so it'd need some math to certify whether a 2nd BRD or a merited DNC is better for those jobs on paper, but i'm pretty sure the 10% Haste & extra DD would win.

In an 'intense' meripo, a 2nd BRD doing his job properly will also add additional pulling power.

When you have 2-3pimp DD's hasted to the max, the 1 BRD has the toughest job of all. The perfect pty would probably have the COR assist the BRD pulling (especially as most COR's don't manage to master the DD side of their job). For a good DDcor, it would depend on whether the pty would benefit more from the sometimes needed pulling assistance, or whether the BRD is a god and can manage on his own.



this is kind of a throwaway comment, but i want to point out that with minstrel's ring, sha'ir manteel, and some haste gear, BRD pulling + buffing should never be hard. even if there's a long pull somewhere in the camp, troub/night should be fine.

with a normal all middle birds + some down below + wivre party, drunk pulling with the above gear was still easy mode (with... uh... RDM, BRD and 4 DDs... can't remember what they were). mamool might be a bit more complicated, but not really. shaving 5 to 10 secs off those fights wouldn't have made a difference in difficulty; would only influence when songs get put on the party.

i think the hardest role in such a party has to be the healers. they have to keep up with haste cycles, mayyyybe debuff (probably overkill), but most of all they're the last link in the chain if something goes awry. normal healing should be as routine as BRD and DD (and of course RDM can help pull), but the unexpected huge WS or whatever (or drunk BRD that pulls 3 birds and forgets how to sleep them, which totally has never happened) requires some fast action. DDs usually should be able to take care of themselves (especially monks, hohoho), but if they fail, the healer backs them up. if the healer fails, plop.

i don't think any role is particularly hard though. BRD pulling is annoying sober.
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#37 Dec 03 2009 at 7:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Straight up, no matter what job (melee smns possibly excluded), even if you're using a 1-handed weapon and eating sushi, even if you can make full use of ~+120 attack from double Minuet because the mobs aren't getting debuffed by the mage, even if the dnc sucks and can only contribute enough damage to do 10% party share in the parse, as long as they use Box Step on every mob and have fully merited Haste Samba, it's impossible -not- to be better off with the dnc than with a second brd when you already have brd+cor. Heck, even 2 merits in Haste Samba (7% total) is enough to win, and 6% would likely win with 2-handers using Hasso.
#38 Dec 03 2009 at 1:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Pahn wrote:

this is kind of a throwaway comment, but i want to point out that with minstrel's ring, sha'ir manteel, and some haste gear, BRD pulling + buffing should never be hard. even if there's a long pull somewhere in the camp, troub/night should be fine.

with a normal all middle birds + some down below + wivre party, drunk pulling with the above gear was still easy mode (with... uh... RDM, BRD and 4 DDs... can't remember what they were). mamool might be a bit more complicated, but not really. shaving 5 to 10 secs off those fights wouldn't have made a difference in difficulty; would only influence when songs get put on the party.

i think the hardest role in such a party has to be the healers. they have to keep up with haste cycles, mayyyybe debuff (probably overkill), but most of all they're the last link in the chain if something goes awry. normal healing should be as routine as BRD and DD (and of course RDM can help pull), but the unexpected huge WS or whatever (or drunk BRD that pulls 3 birds and forgets how to sleep them, which totally has never happened) requires some fast action. DDs usually should be able to take care of themselves (especially monks, hohoho), but if they fail, the healer backs them up. if the healer fails, plop.

i don't think any role is particularly hard though. BRD pulling is annoying sober.


Have you never been in meripo's with just BRD, COR support where the BRD has struggled to keep up, whether it be stacking/debuf or keeping double March up?

You added a throw away comment of your own in there too, i personally don't think the healers job is hard at all @ birds. The DNC helps cure meaning the healers job is actually quite relaxed, and the DD's have no problem full timing Hasso during bird fights that are lasting 10sec's.
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#39 Dec 03 2009 at 2:07 PM Rating: Good
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i've certainly been in merit parties where every role has struggled to keep up. just saying that with the right gear, the decision-making as a BRD puller gets cut down dramatically; no more timing really, just fish, run, fish, sleep several mobs if they're up, etc. it's as routine as melee, gear swap, WS, repeat. without big mob WS danger and fast kills, i'm sure healing is just as easy, but in other places it would at least require you to pay attention enough to heal up a melee who doesn't get shadows up after a big firespit or whatever.
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i wish to be the red comet.
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