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Onimaru vs SoboroFollow

#1 May 18 2009 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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So I had this long post typed out over my parsing against other SAMs with Onimaru vs Soboro, how I always barely outdmged them, but when I parsed it against myself, I always did less damage w/ Soboro than Onimaru, and I was so confused at which was the better GKT.

Then before I hit post, friend logged on for our weekly ENM that we just started, and Hagun dropped, friend let me have this one, so now I don't care!!

I was so happy, I wanted to share.

Thanks Alla Sams, since I constantly read these boards even though everybody else hates you guys. I don't. Not yet.

Peace.

Afterglo
#2 May 18 2009 at 12:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok then.

I've always done better with soboro than onimaru in merits, but that's due to how quickly you can spam WSs when you hit 100% TP. Going an attack round over negates the bonus soboro gives you (with Sekkanoki you can save yourself once every 5 minutes from this though). Full overwhelm merits and pushing to always trigger it will tip the scales in favor of Soboro.
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#3 May 18 2009 at 12:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Also /DRG with the large chunks of TP from Jumps you will get from using Soboro will tip it that way.

You can't really compare yourself against yourself in parses unless everything else is held equal (same party members playing exactly the same, you play exactly the same). You could compare things like average WS damage and average damage per hit, but that isn't going to answer which is better for you overall.

Edited, May 18th 2009 4:47pm by JaxReborn
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#4 May 18 2009 at 1:38 PM Rating: Decent
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If you don't do better with soboro, you are either:
1. Not playing aggressively enough
2. Overkill the mob at low percent HP with gekko.
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#5 Jun 09 2009 at 4:24 PM Rating: Decent
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So, I just ding 75SAM (woo!).

So, just to make sure, Soboro > Onimaru if you're playing aggressively enough?

My merit party made fun of me for using Soboro and not having very strong ws or acc (I just dinged 75 last night actually! ;_;). Other then Hagun, I told him I'd parse better with a Soboro instead of Onimaru (SAM/WAR, working on /drg after a few key merits). He didn't like that comment much =P. Disbanded a couple mobs later, called me gimp, and told me never to invite him again. Soooooo...yeah.

Any ways, just askin. Thanks.

Edited, Jun 9th 2009 8:25pm by Salodin
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Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#6 Jun 09 2009 at 5:26 PM Rating: Decent
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You have to be slacking pretty hardcore for Onimaru to be even close to soboro's total dmg. I'm not sure it's even possible.

Don't let idiots with "big numbers syndrome" discourage you from using this weapon.
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#7 Jun 09 2009 at 5:45 PM Rating: Good
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Thanks. I knew this, but just needed some justification from some one else who doesn't have their head so far up their behind to even consider the idea that a level 50 weapon could outparse a lvl 73 weapon.
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Bsphil wrote:
Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#8 Jun 09 2009 at 8:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Salodin wrote:
Thanks. I knew this, but just needed some justification from some one else who doesn't have their head so far up their behind to even consider the idea that a level 50 weapon could outparse a lvl 73 weapon.
Most of the people are seeing "his hits are for less... his WSes are for less... his weapon must suck" without bothering to take into account hits per unit time (more of them) or WSes per unit time (more of them).
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#9figster, Posted: Jun 22 2009 at 3:24 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) this is a huge debate in my ls. hagun vs soboro vs onimaru. hagun is #1 top damaging weapon for sam, bar none. onimaru is the best til you get hagun. and soboro should only be used til 60, then it doesnt do high enough dmg ws's and feeds the mob tp, and the dmg rating is too low and doesnt cause enough dmg. personally, im all for soboro. but my ls mates are totally against it. thoughts?
#10 Jun 22 2009 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
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feeds the mob tp


Here we go
#11 Jun 22 2009 at 3:41 PM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
feeds the mob tp

Here we go
lolmobtp

Quote:
this is a huge debate in my ls. hagun vs soboro vs onimaru. hagun is #1 top damaging weapon for sam, bar none. onimaru is the best til you get hagun. and soboro should only be used til 60, then it doesnt do high enough dmg ws's and feeds the mob tp, and the dmg rating is too low and doesnt cause enough dmg.
Have your ls mates read: this

nubs
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#12 Jun 22 2009 at 5:03 PM Rating: Decent
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I mean we spout all the math we want, but I did a few parses and was dissapointed. Onimaru whooped my Soboro's ***...by a lot.

I started off with polearm (on birds), but switched to soboro cause of my lack of merits in everything. After about 45min of parsing I went /cry because I had fallen behind after restarting the parser for my new weapon.

Discouraged, I swapped to Onimaru, and restarted the parse. Lo and Behold, I blew past everyone. What was a 1-2% lead on them when using polearm jumped to 7-9%. I was astonished. I was Sam/War at the time.

So yeah, onimaru vs soboro...wtf?
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Bsphil wrote:
Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#13 Jun 22 2009 at 5:33 PM Rating: Good
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I mean we spout all the math we want, but I did a few parses and was dissapointed. Onimaru whooped my Soboro's ***...by a lot.

1rst of all, competitive parsing doesn't tell you jack, I've posted parses on here with me doing 1.5-3x the dmg of similarly geared SAM with various weapons.
2ndly:
Quote:
Discouraged, I swapped to Onimaru, and restarted the parse. Lo and Behold, I blew past everyone. What was a 1-2% lead on them when using polearm jumped to 7-9%

Quote:
I was Sam/War at the time.

/facepalm

please read the link before you comment

hint: bad sub for GK + I'm thinking bad gear/food choice for polearm

Edited, Jun 22nd 2009 9:37pm by shintasama
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Winston Churchill wrote:
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#14 Jun 22 2009 at 7:19 PM Rating: Good
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I'm thinking bad gear/food choice for polearm


I'm thinking it shouldn't matter since in another thread it's been said (and agreed with) that:

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Don't have PA merits? Use crab sushi. You'll still win.


It came from here

All I'm saying is, my Onimaru did more damage then my polearm (while eatting crab sushi), and soboro (ate meat while using both katanas). And at the end of the day, that's pretty important.

With more gear/merits, I'm sure my polearm would outdo my katana on birds, but till then, all I'm saying is my Onimaru outdid my polearm and my soboro. I don't pretend to know why, I just know what I see when I look at the parser.

You say competitive parses don't mean anything, and I can see why, so next time I go out I'll simply compare one great katana for x amount of birds, then the other katana for x amount of birds. Compare total damage, etc etc, and see what I get.
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Bsphil wrote:
Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#15 Jun 22 2009 at 7:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Did you sub /WAR when wielding polearm?
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#16 Jun 22 2009 at 8:16 PM Rating: Good
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Were you using a battle fork?



Just to make sure you know what you're talking about: You're claiming a weapon with similar/higher DoT, 5-hit WS, lower hit build, and straight up +25% dmg lost to a GK that used to cost 10k. The amount of suck that's required for Soboro or a decent polearm to loose to Onimaru boggles my mind. It had to have been poor parse control.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 12:19am by shintasama
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#17 Jun 22 2009 at 10:50 PM Rating: Good
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Well, the whole spear thing is open to debate.

But as for you parsing higher with Oni than you did with Soboro, perhaps it's all due to your /WAR sub.

10% Double Attack does wonders for a slow but strong single-hit weapon.

With Soboro and it's multi-hit on the other hand, having Double Attack go off actually renders the multi-hit effect void (doesnt go off). Thus reducing damage done even more. This effect would be even more noticable with a Pole Grip or such forms of additional double attack gear.

It's not that either weapon is bad. I'm not saying one is better than the other either. But each one requires diffirent gear, stats and subjobs to increase it's power. You can't just ride the exact same gear and then wonder why your damage is suddenly lower when the used stats are not in the favor of your current weapon.
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#18 Jun 22 2009 at 11:19 PM Rating: Decent
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I've had similar issues with Soboro in merits vs polearm and Onimaru.

Though Polearm beat out Oni by a alot, Soboro was slightly below Oni. This was with /nin sub (which I did because all other sams were /nin and I wasn't safe with another sub)

But then the parse changed in soboros favor when one of the sams was repped for a war. The sam who left was a super geared usukane/blahblah sam though. So I don't know, parses can change from the slightest fluttering of a butterfly's wings.

I know that for anything small-group/nyzul/FoV sam with soboro is the tops in the fun category.
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#19 Jun 22 2009 at 11:28 PM Rating: Good
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i hate using soboro because it's kind of a hate magnet, but that's just me. i'd use it over onimaru if i didn't have hagun.

i'd like to get a decent polearm and try that out, but my interest in the game is waning. i don't really log on enough. i'll probably try love halberd out at birds sometime soon if i can form a party i don't have to BRD for. (shrug)
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#20 Jun 23 2009 at 5:45 AM Rating: Good
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i'd like to get a decent polearm and try that out, but my interest in the game is waning. i don't really log on enough. i'll probably try love halberd out at birds sometime soon if i can form a party i don't have to BRD for. (shrug)

Hey, do you happen to remember where that Love vs Tomoe/Gondo/Engetsuto math you did is?

I just got love and was curious how far behind it was, but don't want to redo it if I don't have to.
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#21 Jun 23 2009 at 7:49 AM Rating: Good
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The answers have already been said. But you should definitely go back and re-visit your PA build to see where you went wrong. Imo, a good PA build is dependant on buffs aswell, a COR doing Chaos/Hunters does wonders for PA. Penta'a build is obviously a completely different one to YGK.

The fact that Onimaru beat Soboro /WAR isn't suprising. Onimaru is a solid /WAR weapon. It was only 10K for so long, because it took the population how many years to realise its way better than the KS99 dropping OMGSTR+5 Shinsoku? It has the best DoT outside off Soboro, and the second highest dmg-ing ws's outside of Hagun - its the inbetweener!





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#22 Jun 23 2009 at 11:03 AM Rating: Good
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shintasama wrote:
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i'd like to get a decent polearm and try that out, but my interest in the game is waning. i don't really log on enough. i'll probably try love halberd out at birds sometime soon if i can form a party i don't have to BRD for. (shrug)

Hey, do you happen to remember where that Love vs Tomoe/Gondo/Engetsuto math you did is?

I just got love and was curious how far behind it was, but don't want to redo it if I don't have to.


i could watch kunoichi all day.

edit:

found it: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=13;mid=1218170129152794112;num=45;page=1

incidentally, i somehow wandered into a discussion about the same thing here: http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=20976

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 3:49pm by milich
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#23 Jun 23 2009 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
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milich wrote:
shintasama wrote:
Quote:
i'd like to get a decent polearm and try that out, but my interest in the game is waning. i don't really log on enough. i'll probably try love halberd out at birds sometime soon if i can form a party i don't have to BRD for. (shrug)

Hey, do you happen to remember where that Love vs Tomoe/Gondo/Engetsuto math you did is?

I just got love and was curious how far behind it was, but don't want to redo it if I don't have to.


i could watch kunoichi all day.

edit:

found it: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=13;mid=1218170129152794112;num=45;page=1

incidentally, i somehow wandered into a discussion about the same thing here: http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=20976

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 3:49pm by milich
hmmm, I have higher fSTR by 2, Love's DA rate is 55% according to wiki, and meditate is super overvalued in the encyclopedia math. I'm going to need to work it out myself ~_~ Thanks for linking though.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 5:32pm by shintasama
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#25 Jun 23 2009 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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Did you sub /WAR when wielding polearm?


I did use /war for polearm.

Quote:
Were you using a battle fork?


Nope, paid a pretty penny for Engetsuo (since Tomoe is a friggin ***** and won't drop).

Quote:
You're claiming a weapon with similar/higher DoT, 5-hit WS, lower hit build, and straight up +25% dmg lost to a GK


I'm not claiming, I proved it in a parse. Of course I didn't save such parse, so I'm stopping now before some one says "parse or it didn't happen". I do understand that gear/sub/merits/secondcomingofjesus all factors into polearm being better (a lot of which I just don't have right now) but when so many people make such sweeping statements like "Polearms on birds or gtfo", you'd think the difference would be clearly noticeable regardless of gear/sub/merits/secondcomingofjesus.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I only have max stp and 3/8 great katana merits right now. I'm sure that factors into it.

When using polearm, I swap my build from bushi/fowling (if using soboro) or bushi/brutal (if using onimaru) over to brutal/fowling (for polearm). I swap my dusk hands (for great katana) over to Noritsune kote (for polearm) since my acc is horrendous. My avg weapon skill is horrible, even though I know I'm landing all 5 hits (count tp every ws). Even though I do occasionally miss a hit or two on ws, even when all 5 connect (which is more often then not), the damage still isn't anything to brag about. In fact, if I recall correctly, my Onimaru's avg ws was the same or higher in damage then my pentas, and again, I know that's a gear thing. I'm eatting crab sushi with one bard as the buffer, and I'm going wtf...those alla people effin lied to me!

I don't even really care too much about all the particulars. However, I do find it pretty effin irritating when you read these forums constantly in order to try and max what I can do with my sam, only to see that the thing everybody goes on about (polearm on birds) isn't always the best thing to use if you don't have very specific things to make it work.

I swear, each and every one of you needs a **** disclaimer on every post you make saying "So and So is better, if you have this sub with this gear with these buffs with these merits". I still have more parsing to do to verify, but as of right now, with my /war (which is the only real DD sub available to me aside from /nin), Onimaru did more damage then Polearm and Soboro.

Clearly, the blanket statement isn't working for me. Working on it, honest to god, but right now I need to be using great kanata, and as the title of this thread points out, it's between Onimaru and Soboro. More parsing needs to be done on my end of course, and trust me, it'll be done. I'm over the 'theory craft' or whatever it's called, I'm doing the parses and checking my numbers for this.

I don't know what else to tell you. I'll post back eventually when I get to merit again, which should be soon since I have off tomorrow. Till then, by all means talk to me some more about this topic. In fact, if I find a second, I'll edit this to include my sam gear which I'll add on ffxiah.com.

EDIT: Ok, here is my tp set when using Onimaru. My soboro set is exactly the same, only I swap the earrings as I detailed above, and I switch grip to a Mythril grip +1. Linky

And here is my ws set. This is for G. Katana only. Just borrowed friends KO, so now I'll have to redo my polearm ws set in order to maintain my 5-hit. Linky

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 8:23pm by Salodin
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Bsphil wrote:
Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#26 Jun 23 2009 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not claiming, I proved it in a parse. Of course I didn't save such parse, so I'm stopping now before some one says "parse or it didn't happen".
competitive parsing doesn't prove sh*t
Quote:
I don't even really care too much about all the particulars. However, I do find it pretty effin irritating when you read these forums constantly in order to try and max what I can do with my sam, only to see that the thing everybody goes on about (polearm on birds) isn't always the best thing to use if you don't have very specific things to make it work.
I bring this up almost every polearm discussion we have:
Shinta wrote:
if you don't have the build for it polearm's performance drops off quickly
Shinta wrote:
I know polearm has excellent potential in that camp, I'm saying 99.9% of people @#%^ it up by: 1) not having polearm merits (I personally don't have the extra points, so I don't even bother with polearm), 2) not eating the right food, 3) not having half the gear you've mentioned, 4)not having 2 bards at their beck and call (it's just easier for me to find COR), and 5) getting pwnt by feather tickle. It's not the sort of thing were you can just equip a polearm when you hit 75 and do anything close to decent dmg like people seem to think, while GK is much easier to work with, doesn't require nearly as much support, and isn't limited to piercing weak mobs.

You seem to have at least the food and BRD down though, so there has to be some major problems with your gear setup.
Quote:
I swear, each and every one of you needs a **** disclaimer on every post you make saying "So and So is better, if you have this sub with this gear with these buffs with these merits".
Believe it or not, we don't have the time to write/figure out every single possible combination of gear and merits affect on everything. All theorycrafts are done with a certain competency/gear/merit combination in mind (usually the posters), you should already have the common sense to realize everything doesn't necessarily apply to you. If you really want to see how it should work in your situation, learn the math and do it yourself.

As far as soboro vs onimaru goes though, with any reasonable build SAM/WAR Onimaru should do ~15-21% better melee but soboro should do ~27% more ws dmg if you're paying attention (Soboro WS should be ~75% as strong, but ~1.7x more abundant, soboro should win by ~3-10% overall, if you were /DRG like I've suggested the margin would be much greater). For Onimaru to beat soboro: 1)You aren't on top of WS, 2)your WS build is horrible, 3)your acc is horrible, 4) your STR is extremely low, and/or most likely: you/the players you're parsing against are not consistent. You could parse the same party with the same weapons/gear 10 times and get more variance than that. Competitive parsing just doesn't work worth a ****.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 8:29pm by shintasama

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 8:32pm by shintasama
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
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