Onimaru vs SoboroFollow

Ok then.

I've always done better with soboro than onimaru in merits, but that's due to how quickly you can spam WSs when you hit 100% TP. Going an attack round over negates the bonus soboro gives you (with Sekkanoki you can save yourself once every 5 minutes from this though). Full overwhelm merits and pushing to always trigger it will tip the scales in favor of Soboro.

If you don't do better with soboro, you are either:
1. Not playing aggressively enough
2. Overkill the mob at low percent HP with gekko.

You have to be slacking pretty hardcore for Onimaru to be even close to soboro's total dmg. I'm not sure it's even possible.

Don't let idiots with "big numbers syndrome" discourage you from using this weapon.

Most of the people are seeing "his hits are for less... his WSes are for less... his weapon must suck" without bothering to take into account hits per unit time (more of them) or WSes per unit time (more of them).

Here we go

I mean we spout all the math we want, but I did a few parses and was dissapointed. Onimaru whooped my Soboro's ass...by a lot.

I started off with polearm (on birds), but switched to soboro cause of my lack of merits in everything. After about 45min of parsing I went /cry because I had fallen behind after restarting the parser for my new weapon.

Discouraged, I swapped to Onimaru, and restarted the parse. Lo and Behold, I blew past everyone. What was a 1-2% lead on them when using polearm jumped to 7-9%. I was astonished. I was Sam/War at the time.

So yeah, onimaru vs soboro...wtf?

I'm thinking it shouldn't matter since in another thread it's been said (and agreed with) that:



It came from here

All I'm saying is, my Onimaru did more damage then my polearm (while eatting crab sushi), and soboro (ate meat while using both katanas). And at the end of the day, that's pretty important.

With more gear/merits, I'm sure my polearm would outdo my katana on birds, but till then, all I'm saying is my Onimaru outdid my polearm and my soboro. I don't pretend to know why, I just know what I see when I look at the parser.

You say competitive parses don't mean anything, and I can see why, so next time I go out I'll simply compare one great katana for x amount of birds, then the other katana for x amount of birds. Compare total damage, etc etc, and see what I get.

Were you using a battle fork?



Just to make sure you know what you're talking about: You're claiming a weapon with similar/higher DoT, 5-hit WS, lower hit build, and straight up +25% dmg lost to a GK that used to cost 10k. The amount of suck that's required for Soboro or a decent polearm to loose to Onimaru boggles my mind. It had to have been poor parse control.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 12:19am by shintasama

I've had similar issues with Soboro in merits vs polearm and Onimaru.

Though Polearm beat out Oni by a alot, Soboro was slightly below Oni. This was with /nin sub (which I did because all other sams were /nin and I wasn't safe with another sub)

But then the parse changed in soboros favor when one of the sams was repped for a war. The sam who left was a super geared usukane/blahblah sam though. So I don't know, parses can change from the slightest fluttering of a butterfly's wings.

I know that for anything small-group/nyzul/FoV sam with soboro is the tops in the fun category.

Hey, do you happen to remember where that Love vs Tomoe/Gondo/Engetsuto math you did is?

I just got love and was curious how far behind it was, but don't want to redo it if I don't have to.

i could watch kunoichi all day.

edit:

found it: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=13;mid=1218170129152794112;num=45;page=1

incidentally, i somehow wandered into a discussion about the same thing here: http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=20976

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 3:49pm by milich

I did use /war for polearm.



Nope, paid a pretty penny for Engetsuo (since Tomoe is a friggin bitch and won't drop).



I'm not claiming, I proved it in a parse. Of course I didn't save such parse, so I'm stopping now before some one says "parse or it didn't happen". I do understand that gear/sub/merits/secondcomingofjesus all factors into polearm being better (a lot of which I just don't have right now) but when so many people make such sweeping statements like "Polearms on birds or gtfo", you'd think the difference would be clearly noticeable regardless of gear/sub/merits/secondcomingofjesus.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I only have max stp and 3/8 great katana merits right now. I'm sure that factors into it.

When using polearm, I swap my build from bushi/fowling (if using soboro) or bushi/brutal (if using onimaru) over to brutal/fowling (for polearm). I swap my dusk hands (for great katana) over to Noritsune kote (for polearm) since my acc is horrendous. My avg weapon skill is horrible, even though I know I'm landing all 5 hits (count tp every ws). Even though I do occasionally miss a hit or two on ws, even when all 5 connect (which is more often then not), the damage still isn't anything to brag about. In fact, if I recall correctly, my Onimaru's avg ws was the same or higher in damage then my pentas, and again, I know that's a gear thing. I'm eatting crab sushi with one bard as the buffer, and I'm going wtf...those alla people effin lied to me!

I don't even really care too much about all the particulars. However, I do find it pretty effin irritating when you read these forums constantly in order to try and max what I can do with my sam, only to see that the thing everybody goes on about (polearm on birds) isn't always the best thing to use if you don't have very specific things to make it work.

I swear, each and every one of you needs a damn disclaimer on every post you make saying "So and So is better, if you have this sub with this gear with these buffs with these merits". I still have more parsing to do to verify, but as of right now, with my /war (which is the only real DD sub available to me aside from /nin), Onimaru did more damage then Polearm and Soboro.

Clearly, the blanket statement isn't working for me. Working on it, honest to god, but right now I need to be using great kanata, and as the title of this thread points out, it's between Onimaru and Soboro. More parsing needs to be done on my end of course, and trust me, it'll be done. I'm over the 'theory craft' or whatever it's called, I'm doing the parses and checking my numbers for this.

I don't know what else to tell you. I'll post back eventually when I get to merit again, which should be soon since I have off tomorrow. Till then, by all means talk to me some more about this topic. In fact, if I find a second, I'll edit this to include my sam gear which I'll add on ffxiah.com.

EDIT: Ok, here is my tp set when using Onimaru. My soboro set is exactly the same, only I swap the earrings as I detailed above, and I switch grip to a Mythril grip +1. Linky

And here is my ws set. This is for G. Katana only. Just borrowed friends KO, so now I'll have to redo my polearm ws set in order to maintain my 5-hit. Linky

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 8:23pm by Salodin

Well I really wish when people bring polearm up in a new thread, they say everything you just quoted shinta, cause I don't see that in this thread. And of the many threads I glance over, I have yet to see what you quoted there.

In fact, as shown in my link a few posts above, many people simply say "Polearm or GTFO". That is my issue. However, I do give you kudos for at least taking the time to point that out to me. So for that, thanks. Just next time, if this thing ever happens again, don't jump the gun and say:



followed by quoting yourself in another thread with:



Seriously... come on now. I know you followed up by saying it takes certain gear/merits, but you never allude to that prior to your previous post. You simply move forward by joking (I think...) that I'm using some lolpolearm, in stead of what is the most probable thing in that I just don't have the right gear/merits.

Of course, I don't expect every one to tailer each gear suggestion to each person/gear set, but by just saying "this only works in certain gear/merit situations", you at least give out the notion that maybe what is being suggested isn't the best thing for certain people.

The person in the other thread who said "Just eat crab sushi and you'll still do better" needs to get bonked in the head.



And that's perfectly fine, but parsing doesn't just show competitive damage. I don't have to look at that little column that says "Total Damage (%)" to help me choose which weapon to use.

As far as why my soboro isn't performing up to par, I'm not quite sure. I just posted my tp and ws gear, so please comment. The only thing I can think of is that I sometimes have issues WSing at 100% because of the mob dying at untimely times, or me sitting at 5/6 hits, followed by a triple attack putting me at 8/6 hits. Can't tell you HOW many damn times that's happened to me -_-.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 8:46pm by Salodin

Engetsuto won't do amazing w/o proper gear/support, but it should still outdo Onimaru, esp with proper food.
That's why it's ~1.7x more WS instead of ~1.917x lol

(I know you don't have everything here, but here are suggestions of major things to work towards to maximize dmg, as I stated above, the worse off things like acc/atk/STR/WSfreq are the more onimaru stands out)

melee:
/DRG
merits
HSune-ate+Dusk -> HKote+fumas (long term goal= dusk+usu, STR is more important for soboro)
Byakko's
PCC (I think your biggest problem right now is acc, especially for polearm even w/ sushi)
tiphia Sting (usually not camped, mob is easy duo with SAM/DNC + DD)

WS:
WS gorget
alkys
sachet
smilodon+1 mantle
rutters/flame/shura or AF+1

Here are my sets: tp WS if you want to compare

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 9:32pm by shintasama
I should probably comment on this too. I tp in 114 STR, the fSTR cap for colibri being 111 (12fSTR). For every 4 STR you are under 111STR you loose 1 fSTR vs colibri. Since Soboro has such low base dmg and multi-hits, it feels the impact of high/low STR much more than other weapons

Adjusted DPS @colibri, ignoring Double Attack, piercing 
STR  fSTR  Soboro   Onimaru  Hagun    Engetsuto  Love 
111  12    13.17    12.67    11.60    12.13      16.91 
107  11    12.92    12.53    11.47    12.00      16.67    
103  10    12.67    12.40    11.33    11.88      16.44 
99    9    12.41    12.27    11.20    11.75      16.20 
95    8    12.16    12.13    11.07    11.63      15.97 
91    7    11.91    12.00    10.93    11.50      15.73 
------------------------------------------------------------ 
%change    -9.57%   -5.29%   -5.78%   -5.19%     -6.98%

side note: I know it feels like we're withholding information from you, but really it's just impossible for us to bring up every nuance and detail that affects weapon performance without spending days writing each post.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 10:07pm by shintasama

Ahh.

Damn I want max str merits...