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#152 Feb 08 2010 at 5:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Theodorik wrote:
I have noticed a major increase in my DA procs even with "only" 9% (10% is /WAR base). I've invested a lot of time camping and doing events to finish up my Samurai before I get my Amano. My high haste and acc definitly effects the overlap. I've recently averaged 30% more DA proc since meriting GK and getting my Justice Torque vs Chiv chain. So to me that's a respectable increase. Kinda funny you mentioned that. Most people always ask why the **** I DA so much.


lol
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#153Theodorik, Posted: Feb 08 2010 at 5:49 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Funny, I did the same thing when I scoped your SAM.
#154 Feb 08 2010 at 6:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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I took a gander at your TP set-up, and you don't even have a 6-hit. So be quiet.
yeahhhh I do, or more precisely, I should say "I did" given I haven't touched the gear section of my sig to update it in years.



Basic math skills aren't your strong suit I take it?

Edited, Feb 8th 2010 7:39pm by shintasama
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
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Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#155 Feb 08 2010 at 6:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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shintasama wrote:
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I took a gander at your TP set-up, and you don't even have a 6-hit. So be quiet.
yeahhhh I do, or more precisely, I should say "I did" given I haven't touched the gear section of my sig to update it in years.



Basic math skills aren't your strong suit I take it?

Edited, Feb 8th 2010 7:39pm by shintasama


Unless I misread a few posts up, somehow adding 9+10% DA together gives him +30% DA average, so I'm guessing no.
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#156Theodorik, Posted: Feb 08 2010 at 6:47 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Last time I checked... past the final Job Trait for SAM, it takes +21. NQ Hachi Hands and a Rajas = 13. + Merits you'd be ok, but your WS set-up would have returned 16TP unless DA proc. Which would have left you at 99TP, requiring a 7th hit.
#157Theodorik, Posted: Feb 08 2010 at 6:54 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) No, I said my avg. rate of DA compared to my prior avg rate increased nearly 30%
#158 Feb 08 2010 at 7:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Theodorik wrote:
Last time I checked... past the final Job Trait for SAM, it takes +21. NQ Hachi Hands and a Rajas = 13. + Merits you'd be ok, but your WS set-up would have returned 16TP unless DA proc. Which would have left you at 99TP, requiring a 7th hit.

I do my math, I wasn't talking about just your TP set.

Just have fun scoping my funtime Sig pics ^^

25+13+10 = 48
11.5*1.48 = 17
17*5 = 85
100 - 85 = 15

Looks fine to me?
#159Theodorik, Posted: Feb 08 2010 at 7:20 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
#160 Feb 08 2010 at 7:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Theodorik wrote:
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah


**********************************************************************

WHO HERE HAS USED A 5-HIT BUILD ON SAMURAI IN FFXI? (Theodoric Has, Bigmo has)


**********************************************************************

Anyone that has used a 5-hit has any right to say anything about it. If you haven't, keep your theoretical paperwork to yourself and find somewhere else to backseat drive.

AKA you got caught making a math error and you're not man enough to admit you're wrong.
#161Theodorik, Posted: Feb 08 2010 at 7:29 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I don't care.
#162Theodorik, Posted: Feb 08 2010 at 7:30 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
#163 Feb 08 2010 at 8:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Theodorik wrote:
Anyone that has used a 5-hit has any right to say anything about it.


First hand experience is great for the person but really, bad for the comparison unless you've used both. You can't make decisions based off just doing things one way and that's it.

Making decisions for "But I enjoy it!" is fine, too. They are VALID for your choice in doing something yourself. But, they hold no weight whatsoever when you're trying to help other people make a decision. What does hold weight? Your theoretical paperwork.

Theodorik wrote:
If you haven't, keep your theoretical paperwork to yourself and find somewhere else to backseat drive.


This is a forum. It's a place to communicate about things. Specifically, it's a forum to talk about FFXI and improving our overall knowledge and experience. This particular thread belongs in a forum for SAM and discusses exactly this issue.

Want to know what's interesting about all of that? A lot of the information that people swear by and build their knowledge off of started as "theoretical" paperwork.

Theory has a place. It's used to determine generalities. It's used to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. It's used to build a theory that can direct people in making choices. It's solid, it can be repeated, and the outcomes have been shown to come really close to application.

You've had the math shown to you for why a 5-hit just isn't as good as a 6-hit. You can rage all you want, but the sad truth is... Math doesn't lie. You can accept that you're using your 5-hit specifically because you enjoy it (and that others will mock you for your choice), or you can experience the joys of a properly built 6-hit. Your choice.
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#164 Feb 08 2010 at 8:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Theodorik wrote:
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah


**********************************************************************

WHO HERE HAS USED A 5-HIT BUILD ON SAMURAI IN FFXI? (Theodoric Has, Bigmo has)


**********************************************************************

Anyone that has used a 5-hit has any right to say anything about it. If you haven't, keep your theoretical paperwork to yourself and find somewhere else to backseat drive.


have you ever tried ************ with sandpaper? it feels SO GOOD. in fact, it's so good that you actually get smarter and youR ***** grows like 2 inches afterwards. LOL I BET U NEVER EVEN TRIED ************ WITH SANDPAPER

edit: obligatory p.s. note that idiots like the guy i'm writing to would never know to wear the gear that they do if it weren't for people who understand the math like me. but instead of thanks we get these tirades. what an unfair world!

Edited, Feb 8th 2010 9:48pm by milich
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#165 Feb 08 2010 at 10:38 PM Rating: Good
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edit: obligatory p.s. note that idiots like the guy i'm writing to would never know to wear the gear that they do if it weren't for people who understand the math like me. but instead of thanks we get these tirades. what an unfair world!


Thank you Pahn for teaching us what to wear!

Also, this thread was worth reading all the way through!
#166Bigmogreen, Posted: Feb 08 2010 at 11:25 PM, Rating: Unrated, (Expand Post) More money more problems lol
#167 Feb 08 2010 at 11:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Theodorik wrote:
Old enough to be your Professor, even your dad.

Edited, Feb 8th 2010 5:30pm by Theodorik


so why do all your posts look like they were written by a child? food for thought.
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#168 Feb 08 2010 at 11:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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klownzor wrote:
Also, this thread was worth reading all the way through!
It's really not

Theodorik wrote:
I don't care can't add or multiply or write completely coherent posts, but expect you to care what I think
ftfy

Edited, Feb 9th 2010 12:59am by shintasama
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#169 Feb 09 2010 at 1:11 AM Rating: Good
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It's really not


I got a few cheap laughs out of it.
#170 Feb 09 2010 at 6:05 AM Rating: Good
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Considering that each Aw'aern can manifest one of fifteen different jobs, with varying levels of squishiness, and with a rather wide level range (81-84, so there's a pronounced difference between highest and lowest even before level correction), this test is inherently flawed and unreliable from the start. There are simply too many variables to account for.

Actually just to be fair (and derailing a LOT XD sorry) each spawn point pops 1 out of 2 set jobs, not 1 of 15.
#171 Feb 09 2010 at 8:03 AM Rating: Good
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sbrubles wrote:
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Considering that each Aw'aern can manifest one of fifteen different jobs, with varying levels of squishiness, and with a rather wide level range (81-84, so there's a pronounced difference between highest and lowest even before level correction), this test is inherently flawed and unreliable from the start. There are simply too many variables to account for.

Actually just to be fair (and derailing a LOT XD sorry) each spawn point pops 1 out of 2 set jobs, not 1 of 15.
Granted, but that doesn't prevent those two jobs from being any two out of the fifteen possible jobs a given Aern may have.
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#172Theodorik, Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 8:33 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) See?
#173 Feb 09 2010 at 9:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Theodorik wrote:
See?

I gave 10+ hours to give you guys time to give a comprehensive response with some validity or even the opportunity to hold some water in your Hypothesis.

And what do I see?

Haters.

More Haters.

And even less said about the 5-hit build... In fact nothing said about the 5-hit build.

If you cannot get onto the proper topic, I'll just have to report it and have this trash locked. Thanks.

(Oh by the way kids, math is often foiled, no pun intended. The biggest factor in math gone wrong by the end sum? Human error or interference.)



Edited, Feb 9th 2010 9:37am by Theodorik
You're welcome.
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#174 Feb 09 2010 at 9:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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If you cannot get onto the proper topic, I'll just have to report it and have this trash locked. Thanks.


Who put you in charge anyways? No one here has to serve you and your stubborn inability to reason.

Quote:
Oh by the way kids, math is often foiled, no pun intended. The biggest factor in math gone wrong by the end sum? Human error or interference.


Quit trying to sound like you know anything. You've made quite a few posts demonstrating you don't understand how this game works. FFXI is just one big math program. All it is is a set of equations and a random number generator covered in a GUI. If you know those equations, you know how the game works. Those equations are known (see the wiki or any number of posts on this site), and their validity has been proven through lots of parses. Just because you won't admit that doesn't mean we owe you something.
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#175 Feb 09 2010 at 9:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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Haters.
wahhh

Why not demand we all go get shinsoku's and test them while we're at it? It's just as dead horse and inferior.
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#176Theodorik, Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 11:00 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You guys keep saying you've done all this extensive armchair research, but I've yet to see a current and up to date parse log.
#177 Feb 09 2010 at 11:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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Here's the skinny(Probably going to lose a few of you on this since it's an old old topic):


You didn't say anything of any substance. Good job.

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Controlled Environment:


Learn to science, noob. That's not a controlled environment at all since there are variables related to the actual human players you aren't controlling for. Yet again, you fail to understand basic game mechanics. It doesn't matter if you parse a fight with him there. The only thing that such a parse would prove is which one of you dealt the most damage during that time span. It says NOTHING about 5-hit or 6-hit build, because as has been pointed out numerous times in this thread that the person playing the job matters. We use math to demonstrate the potential of a build. Its up to the player to live up to that potential or not.

If you really want to prove anything, learn the math and post it here. That is the ONLY way you can prove it.

Quote:
Tinnin


WooooOOOOooooo....
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#178 Feb 09 2010 at 11:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Theodorik wrote:
I'll post a parse log either tonight or tomorrow.
Which will be completely meaningless, given the massive difference player skill/attentiveness/etc makes and your clear and present bias, and in this case (Tinnin) Physical shield, backline curing para/plague, ability to get overwhelm, dispel, buffs, etcetc. I don't think you could have come up with a ******** test outside of "we're only going to look at the couple of WS during meditate and ignore the other 95% of your damage" (see: your ****** "proof" above).
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#179 Feb 09 2010 at 12:46 PM Rating: Good
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Theodorik wrote:
Controlled Environment:
I'm going to use the identical food as Bigmo, including same sub and weapon.

If there is anything I've excluded, let me know. I should be on Skype with him while we're conducting this experiement, so if he afk's or anything else, I will stop, and vice versa.

The type and style of buffs will be dictated when we sort out the party.


gear, merits, race, skill, and luck (hitting, crits, etc) all come into play, and out of those, the only one that can't be fully controlled for a proper scientific analysis (two variables are present, when one at a time is best for any analysis).

beyond that, it really does sound like "my parse will beat your parse".

I do agree that some of this argument does seem more like children bickering (on both sides), and that a review of the math, and it's formula's, does seem like it is due; but if they haven't changed, then the current math that we have is fine as is.
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#180 Feb 09 2010 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
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5 Hit Person wrote:
It's called a Futsuno Mitama. You should check it out, go ahead and tell me they weren't thinking 5-hit.


The only thing that piece of **** is worth doing with is selling.
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#181 Feb 09 2010 at 1:11 PM Rating: Default
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Anyone seen the specific godlike item Square Enix added a couple years back to promotes the concept of a 5-hit build? It's called a Futsuno Mitama. You should check it out, go ahead and tell me they weren't thinking 5-hit

Wait does Bigmo have a Futsuno?


Quote:
I'm saying there is reasoning to invest in a 5-hit if you can. If anything for the sick Meditate damage.

Now this I could swallow. Although I'd still keep my 6-hit and SC with everyone else.


Edited, Feb 9th 2010 2:15pm by sbrubles
#182 Feb 09 2010 at 5:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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shhh, logic has no place with lakshimians


/sigh. And I thought were doing so well over here ; ; there goes any credibility I had. Thanks for tarnishing our worlds image!
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#183 Feb 10 2010 at 3:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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if you prove with math that one gear setup does more DoT than another, you either a) know that said gear setup does more than another, or b) haven't factored in all the variables. once you factor in enough variables (in like 95% of cases in ffxi--99%+ if you count trivially bad choices--it's very easy to do this), you get the answer. people who rely only on parses are sad, b/c it should be obvious even to a child that guyA in gearX vs guyB in gearY won't necessarily tell you whether or not gearX is better than gearY (homework: why not?).

probably trolling though. either you gave it away when you said "i'll be on skype so i'll know if he goes AFK" ie you guys just get up and go afk from XP parties without telling your party, or mild lol at that.
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#184 Feb 10 2010 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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This Theodick and Bigmouth really are blind.


Theo: You controlled testing mean absolute zero, all a parser is good for is

1) entertainment
2) enhancing your own build
3) competition


Theory Math crafting is many times more precise, and you can actually see the numbers on paper.



No-one's giving you decent answers, because 5HIT VS 6HIT is nothing new around here. We especially don't care about putting time and effort into a post that would just go to complete waste on your friend circle.


Just to note also, every SAM here will have used a 5HIT in campaign (using Rose Strap) or via a COR's SAM roll, so its not as if we don't know what its like getting 20% tp/hit. Its just we all do it at times when we don't have to sacrifice Haste/Acc/STR.
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#185 Feb 10 2010 at 4:51 PM Rating: Good
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side note: max gear haste + hasso + SAM roll + DNC + 2xmarch + haste is absolute ***.
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Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#186Bigmogreen, Posted: Feb 10 2010 at 4:52 PM, Rating: Unrated, (Expand Post) While u have your 5 hit in campaign i have a 4 also when i get a sam roll so i win again xD. Like Charmin Says "Less is More" haha. How am i blind because i wanna use a 5 hit and not be like you? I dont really give a flying ****** if yall hating on me.. I know what i can do Obviously something u cant do even if u tried lol.. Just like how the Saints took all that negative energy from the Sports analyst's and smashed the Pony's .. Thats what im doing with yall .. More fuel to the fire.. Makes you kinda wonder if my 5 hit so dumb why yall hating xD? NAWLINS 4 EVA
#187 Feb 11 2010 at 3:05 AM Rating: Good
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Even if u were to "sacrifice" gear U dont even have the items to make a 5 hit i bet.


This reasoning is just flawed. I don't have a Kogarasumaru, but just because its arguably the hardest GKT to to get in the game does than mean its good?

There are plenty of SAM's on this forum who have either full Usukane or various pieces, and they all know better than to do what you are doing. The best build I've seen (outside of aman) is Veggetto's TP set for SAM, if he pops his head in, take a page out of his book and you would be an unstoppable SAM.


Also, none of us hate you. We just think you and your circle of SAM friends are a joke.

I feel sorry for the handful of Lakishians who play the game well, but get their names dragged through the mud due to ppl like yourselves.
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#188 Feb 12 2010 at 11:47 AM Rating: Default
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<~ hit [Expand]
idk what I get sub defaulted for anymore but anyway, Is there a parser that accounts for skillchain damage? If so could someone post me a link. I've d/led a few but non of them have anything that reads for skillchains. Not looking to do any competitive parsing, looking to just get on "paper" the differences of a fully hasted 6 hit, 5 hit, and 5 hit polearm build. (All on same character)
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#189 Feb 12 2010 at 12:00 PM Rating: Good
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Kparser records skill chain damage. It's on the normal Offense tab. It doesn't say who did it, but if you set up your filter right, you'd be fine.
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#190 Feb 12 2010 at 1:14 PM Rating: Good
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Is there a parser that accounts for skillchain damage?


KParser records SC damage, so you could see how much of an impact SCing actually has (Say if it did X% of the parties total damage or something). It doesn't attribute that damage to any one player. It wouldn't make much sense to add SC damage to a person's parser total anyways unless that was self-SC damage. It takes two people to make a skill chain, and it would be incredibly stupid if you had two DD's standing around waiting for the other to WS so they could close the SC and up their parse.

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#191Coyoteblackzero, Posted: Feb 13 2010 at 3:48 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) xD thank you for the parser guys way better than the crap I was using before.
#192 Feb 13 2010 at 9:43 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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Theodorik wrote:
Anyone seen the specific godlike item Square Enix added a couple years back to promotes the concept of a 5-hit build? It's called a Futsuno Mitama. You should check it out, go ahead and tell me they weren't thinking 5-hit.
You know that the TP bonus of hagun is the equivalent of 75-90+ STR (representing a larger boost of STR the more you pile on) right? And that's without a WS gorget. With one, it's an even larger bonus, up to almost 100 STR. See below.



Edited, Feb 14th 2010 2:24pm by bsphil
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#193 Feb 14 2010 at 6:18 AM Rating: Decent
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You know that the TP bonus of hagun is the equivalent of 75-90+ STR (representing a larger boost of STR the more you pile on) right?


Its around a 45STR boost @ 100% TP

0.1 fTP is worth around 15STR (the boost gorget gives you).

Each hit you go over 100% TP using a Hagun up to 200% is also worth around 15STR or 0.1ftp on your ws dmg.


Think I remember a thread on BG about Futsuno VS Hagun, and Futsuno Mitama was slightly better than Hagun with the right build if you religiously fire off ws's @ 100% TP.



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#194 Feb 14 2010 at 10:44 AM Rating: Good
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Sandmasterr wrote:
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You know that the TP bonus of hagun is the equivalent of 75-90+ STR (representing a larger boost of STR the more you pile on) right?


Its around a 45STR boost @ 100% TP

0.1 fTP is worth around 15STR (the boost gorget gives you).

Each hit you go over 100% TP using a Hagun up to 200% is also worth around 15STR or 0.1ftp on your ws dmg.


Think I remember a thread on BG about Futsuno VS Hagun, and Futsuno Mitama was slightly better than Hagun with the right build if you religiously fire off ws's @ 100% TP.
I've done one here, it's extremely close with Futsuno only slightly ahead in the perfect situation for it.
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#195 Feb 14 2010 at 1:51 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Sandmasterr wrote:
Its around a 45STR boost @ 100% TP
Hmmm.

140 STR on WS:

Hagun DMG:75
fSTR=16
WSC=floor(floor(.75 * 140) * .83)=87

WS DMG=(75+16+87)*fTP

Without TP bonus:
WS DMG=floor((75+16+87)*1.5625)=278

With TP bonus:
WS DMG=floor((75+16+87)*1.875)=333

Difference = 333-278 = 55 DMG on WS



Working backwards:
((178+X)*1.5625)=((178)*1.875)
X=((333/1.5625)-178)
X=35

WSC=87+35=floor(floor(.75 * Y) * .83)
((142 / .83) / .75) = Y
195.98 = Y

Difference = 196 - 140 = STR+56 in WSC to match the DMG increase of hagun at 100 TP without WS gorget.

Did I make any glaring errors? I wasn't working backwards through fTP previously. That's what I get for drinking and mathing.

Edited, Feb 14th 2010 2:30pm by bsphil
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Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
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#196 Feb 14 2010 at 8:08 PM Rating: Good
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looks fine, i only said 45 as an 'ish', 54-55's not far off.

although,

(75+16+(140+55)*.75*.83))*1.5625 = 332

but yeah lol, would mean gorget's worth around 16-17STR.



@ 200% TP with TP bonus:

WS DMG = ((75+16+87)*2.5) = 445
445-333=112

112DMG means the TP bonus @ 200% TP is worth around 110STR. Thats kinda huge, nice to see numbers like that at times.




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