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#1 Feb 01 2011 at 12:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Sorry if I missed an existing thread on this. Who is using /MNK now that we can get Counterstance? Can you give your thoughts on it? I'm wondering if I should take the time to level it from 12 to 49.
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#2 Feb 02 2011 at 2:54 AM Rating: Good
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Its fine to make a setup using /MNK. For some reason I still prefer /WAR and i'm a MNK main. I guess my reasoning is that NIN still lacks in the HP department compared to MNK, so pysical TP moves hit high if you don't have shadows up and I've been 1 shotted or TP/auto-attack KO becasue I havn't had the HP to back up having no defence.

Its also useless against any mob you have to turn your back too. No harm in giving it a try though, I just found it wasn't practical considering when im in abys i generally do a handful of NM's there and not all are suited to /MNK. /WAR and /DNC are still the best sj's.

I also don't have Magian weapons on NIN, I bet a pair of EVA katana's would help /MNK nicely.
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#3 Feb 02 2011 at 7:13 AM Rating: Good
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I'm sure it would be an ok sub for spamming Chloris.
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#4 Feb 02 2011 at 5:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Sandmasterr wrote:
I also don't have Magian weapons on NIN, I bet a pair of EVA katana's would help /MNK nicely.

They'd arguably benefit /WAR more. Mob has to actually land a hit for you to have a chance to counter, if you're evading it'll die faster (and cleaner) by going /WAR and keeping shadows up.

/MNK is great for stuff that tears through your shadows, especially since we can get a MNK-like counter rate with the addition of the counter from Yonin enhancement from Iga Hakama +1/2. However, it lacks the solo capabilities of /DNC and the DPS/red proc abilities of /WAR. Honestly haven't encountered a fight where I felt that I *needed* /MNK, so I've mostly stuck to /WAR for group play. I might consider it if I was 2boxing (thus not always on top of my shadow count) or playing with an unreliable healer though.

EDIT: Palides actually raises a good example, when I spammed Chloris for a friend's H2H I popped Innin and let him do all the countering on MNK so that didn't even cross my mind. Hundred Fists + high counter rate is hilarious and really takes a lot of HP off the NM.

Edited, Feb 2nd 2011 6:03pm by Beleren
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#5 Feb 05 2011 at 1:28 AM Rating: Good
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/MNK is my preference now. NIN has a naturally high evasion inside abyssea, even in TP gear. You sport +90 AGI with cruor buffs and gnarled horn, which is +45 evasion before you even decide to gear for it. While not enough to hit the evasion cap, even against tier 2 mobs you generally have a decent evasion rate. Not only that, you have a pretty high chance to counter even if something get's through. Plus you have more HP. Dodge can be up 2/5 minutes. It gives a very noticeable evasion boost.

This sub let's me go nuts without having to worry about anything. I don't even cast ichi on most things, because there is just no need to. I will admit it does lack offensive capabilities, but I just feel like nothing can kill me with it.

**** fighting stuff in evasion gear. I've never liked it, never will. I know it's better for some things, yadda yadda. I do have an evasion gear set. There's just no need to ever use it as /mnk.

Even with a 50% evasion rate and a 65% counter rate, that's still an 82.5% chance you'll avoid a physical attack to the face. That's better than evasion naturally can be.

Point being, you don't really need to care about evasion too much as long as you aren't floored if you're /mnk.
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#6 Feb 08 2011 at 10:47 PM Rating: Default
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/SAM onry

But I have Kannagi and /SAM just makes NIN a stupidly powerful DD. We already have ridiculous amounts of evasion and being able to solo darkness only using a powerful WS just makes /SAM #1. You can and do go WS crazy.
#7 Feb 08 2011 at 11:12 PM Rating: Good
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YuusakuLak wrote:
/SAM onry

But I have Kannagi and /SAM just makes NIN a stupidly powerful DD. We already have ridiculous amounts of evasion and being able to solo darkness only using a powerful WS just makes /SAM #1. You can and do go WS crazy.


You have to be trolling.

/WAR: 10% double attack, 15% atk from zerk every 5 min, 10 atk from attack bonus 1, aggressor [not that its needed much at all, but its a nice counter to full time yonin for extra enmity,] warcry [again next to useless, but its still there]

vs

/SAM: 60 tp every 3 minutes, 1 Self SC every 5 minutes, STP 1 and 2.

/WAR completely and utterly demolishes /SAM. The double attack alone would outdo meditate and 1 Self SC during solo play. Add in zerk and full haste, and its not even a close contest. The STP would not even make up for it by a long shot.

Lol?

Edited, Feb 8th 2011 11:14pm by Palides
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#8 Feb 09 2011 at 2:50 AM Rating: Good
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I wish I didn't comment on the Blade: Hi thread, now that I see exactly how stupid Yuusak is, it completely makes sense.
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#9 Feb 09 2011 at 3:58 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Even with a 50% evasion rate and a 65% counter rate, that's still an 82.5% chance you'll avoid a physical attack to the face. That's better than evasion naturally can be.


I know where your comming from about /MNK, and your right it is a more then viable sj now, but assuming a 50% Eva rate from the AGL buffs alone is flawed. I don't see anything like that in DD gear, especially in Hero zones, those NM's are notably tougher.

Also, Everytime you have to turn away from the mob, your taking maximum dmg from melee attacks, and that happens way to much. I still think /WAR wins for general tanking utility and /DNC for solo-ing T2's.




Yusukulak wrote:
/SAM onry

But I have Kannagi and /SAM just makes NIN a stupidly powerful DD. We already have ridiculous amounts of evasion and being able to solo darkness only using a powerful WS just makes /SAM #1. You can and do go WS crazy.


You are a Rock Star



Edited, Feb 9th 2011 4:59am by Sandmasterr
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#10 Feb 09 2011 at 2:37 PM Rating: Decent
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How about /WHM with MM for solo over /DNC? I saw a NIN/WHM solo Durinn last night. Flash/Prot/Shell/RR/SS/Blink/Haste!/Erase/bars/nas, etc. Seems like when I'm /DNC I have to use too much of my precious WS TP for curing myself. MM you can probably spam Cure IV all day long.

Only major downside is sacrificing a DD or Eva Atma for MM. But MM INT may help you land debuffs more effectively.
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#11 Feb 10 2011 at 2:52 AM Rating: Good
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How about /WHM with MM for solo over /DNC? I saw a NIN/WHM solo Durinn last night. Flash/Prot/Shell/RR/SS/Blink/Haste!/Erase/bars/nas, etc. Seems like when I'm /DNC I have to use too much of my precious WS TP for curing myself. MM you can probably spam Cure IV all day long.



Prot would make minimal difference on nins flimsy defence and the way mob dmg is worked out. RR can be put up many ways, blinks no use to a nin, /DNC has erase, and the only useful /na is paralyna which isn't a turning point to /whm.

The biggest pro's is obviously Haste for its great offence and defence, Aquaveil, and cure IV. Cure IV still takes up a mighty chunk of mp though and takes 27secs of 10/tick refresh to get that mp back. Theres obvious potential, but still nothing compared to /DNC - don't worry about spending potential WS tp on cure's. The reason why it works is becasue NIN's DoT is still fairly high from just TP. All a jin does is help you get from A-B quicker.
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#12 Feb 10 2011 at 4:04 AM Rating: Good
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My view and experiences as NIN/WHM

The good :
- Haste is godly.
- Cure, Erase & -na on a different recast timer is nice to have.
- Flash is a fun and useful tool.
- Shell II is still better than nothing against magic.
- Magic Defense Bonus II native trait from /WHM
- Add 3 spell for !!yellow proc on/near lights-day

The bad :
- No stun like /DNC.
- Some buff won't last very long : SS, Aquaveil and rather infective at the end (so far for my self).
- WHM spells can be interrupted quite easily if you're out of shadow / flash.
- One Atma locked to MM (I still have only 2 Lunar, so the loss of RR or GH makes fight longer).

I'd say, if you have 2~3 Lunar, don't really need stun. You can go /WHM. As long you don't fell into a CureIV spam (that MM can't cover C4 is still 88MP) this sub works wonderfully (for me at least).

Edited, Feb 10th 2011 11:07am by Neraya
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#13 Feb 10 2011 at 12:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Atma of Perfect Attendance is also nice for /WHM. I have yet to find anything so difficult that I'm spamming C4 enough to be unable to have enough MP with 5 MP/tic. Full time 11/tic regen (10 from atma and 1 from traits) definitely takes care of the incidental hits that you would take. The 1/tic regain is just icing on the cake. Plus DS C4 is nice as a cure bomb.

Additionally, MDB trait and Shell II take the edge off of some magic damage. Though if there is a really -ga happy mob, stun from /DNC is just flat out better anyway.

I'd also like to point out that while /DNC does have erase, it is a much different animal than /WHM because you can Erase and Cure back-to-back instead of waiting on the long waltz timer.

That and I do worry about wasting TP curing up. 2.5-3k Jin's and 3-3.5k Hi's on NMs speed up the fights by a lot. 35 TP for Samba and 50 TP for a C4 is (essentially) another weaponskill after TP returned by the previous WS. Turning an 8 minute fight into a 10 minute fight adds up to real time lost, more tools used, less seals per hour, etc.

Also, Dia II. It is less potent than a lvl 5 box step but much faster to apply and reapply and doesn't require the JA wait from using steps. It has magic range for pulling instead of ninjutsu range.

That being said, I like /DNC as well.
#14 Feb 11 2011 at 1:25 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not commenting on anything else because I only solo NIN to break Trial weapons, skill up, or ... yea I can't think of anything else... [edit: I will comment, /DNC is superior if only for a way to Silena yourself] but I have to say:

Skubsteve wrote:
Turning an 8 minute fight into a 10 minute fight adds up to real time lost, more tools used, less seals per hour, etc.


Why in gods name would you solo a seal mob? You can't proc ANYTHING. Wow, 3 possible NIN spells, 3 possible /WHM spells. You won't be getting any "seals per hour."

Besides that huge waste of time and stones,not only do you have a dismal chance to proc, but you are taking 8 to 10 to whatever minutes to kill the **** thing. Just find a friend WHM or RDM [or better yet a WHM/BRD, BLU, and BLM] and stop this nonsense. We killed an NM 5 times today, that a duo took the same amount of time to kill once. You are not helping anyone by soloing a mob and taking forever. You are wasting other people's time, as well as your own.


Edited, Feb 11th 2011 5:46am by Palides
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#15 Feb 11 2011 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
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I 2 box seal mobs when I want more than one drop. For example, yesterday I fought the imp as nin/thf + rdm in uleg 21 times. I wanted smn, pup, cor hands and with a rdm had 3 or more spells covered depending on the day. Did I miss out on yellow most pops? Yes. Did I get to lot every seal instead of just picking one? Yes. Did I have to go farm 4 other mobs for the brd, blu, blm, whm that most people bring with them? No.

Not in every case, but in some cases forgoing the yellow to have exclusive lotting rights is more efficient.

As for Nin/mnk....With no evasion gear Ninja will have 13-43 more evasion points due to skillcaps/yonin. That's a 6-21% hit rate difference on attacks you don't counter (assuming your evasion is neither maxed or min). So if you counter 65% on both and monk has a 25% evasion rate they will counter or evade 74ish% of attacks. The ninja would counter/evade 76-81%. This, of course, does not take into account melee gaiters or if the counter from pants does not stack with the trait you get from /mnk.

I haven't used it on anything of note yet, but we farmed the uleg buffalo as war/mnk + blm +whm. I don't see why it wouldn't work if war/mnk can.
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#16Palides, Posted: Feb 11 2011 at 1:28 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) WAR/MNK is retaliation AND counterstance.
#17 Feb 11 2011 at 5:48 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Besides that huge waste of time and stones,not only do you have a dismal chance to proc, but you are taking 8 to 10 to whatever minutes to kill the **** thing. Just find a friend WHM or RDM [or better yet a WHM/BRD, BLU, and BLM] and stop this nonsense. We killed an NM 5 times today, that a duo took the same amount of time to kill once. You are not helping anyone by soloing a mob and taking forever. You are wasting other people's time, as well as your own.


I aggree with Palides, the most annoying thing is watching a nin solo seals. I might be hypocritical however because I use nin to solo popsets, although a ls member is usually happy to come land a ws for me etc. Sometimes thats not available and can take me 3+ mobs on rare occasions for the KI to drop.

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#18 Feb 11 2011 at 8:38 PM Rating: Good
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Palides wrote:


What would have been more efficient? Having 4 people that can proc, and spamming the mob as fast as possible. You proc? Good job here's extra seals. You don't proc? Example: Wherwhitrice. Duo takes 12 minutes to kill, doing nothing but melee and a nukes. There is no danger. My group kills in 2 minutes. I have 6 [2 mules.] We proc 9/10 fights, and burn it down not caring if we get it. We kill 5 NM's in the time it takes them to kill 1.

You're the one that brought up efficiency.




You are assuming that all four people in your example need seals off that mob though. More likely in your situation your group of 4 would kill that mob 5 times then you have to move to another mob because person B didn't need seals from mob A and so forth. Meanwhile, while you are still helping persons B, C, and D each kill a different mob I've collected 3-4 sets of seals I can use because I pick the nm based on what it drops and not ease of kill (which incidentally usually means no competition).

Not to mention this means having 4 people on at the same time. And if you have 4-6 people on at the same time why are you fighting friggen wherwhitrice instead of doing +2s or emps? seal mobs are so easy and so readily popped there is no reason to use time when everyone is online. You go ahead and use the evenings for a rdm head seal. I'll do that during my day off, afternoons, w/e and be farming Rani's and emps when 2-3 friends get on.
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