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Thoughts on Atma of the Ultimate re: hate managementFollow

#1 Dec 27 2010 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
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I've tried out Atma of the Ultimate on NIN along with Razed Ruins in an Abyssea-Ulegurand worm party and was quite impressed with the improvement in Ninjutsu damage, which helped greatly while maintaining hate through some of the heaviest weapon skills' damage.

Without Ascetic's Tonic, each Elemental:San spell did around 350+ HP of damage (380+ on the specific day, about 550+ with Futae). With Ascetic's, the damage sometimes broke 400 HP. Mind you, I didn't have a full nuking set for this as I don't usually play that way specifically.

In my opinion, I really like this Atma for NIN (could really be good for COR and /COR, too) as a hate-grabbing tool in conjunction with Razed Ruins.

Thoughts?
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#2 Dec 27 2010 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
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Situational.

Personally, I'll still be using RR+VV+whatever 3rd DD atma [GH, SS, CD, etc.]

1.5 second casting time for Nis, 2.5 second casting time for Sans. In haste+marchx2 situation [haste samba being relegated as almost worthless for NIN at this point,] is the loss of DoT from melee strikes, and potential Crit+ DMG worth the 3-400 you get from a nuke? I'd argue you'll do more damage over time from increased DoT, WS's, and crits fairly handily.

It is certainly fun though. Great for azure kills, and useful in kited situations in conjunction with /DRK stun. And that's the great thing about atmas, if what ever you are fighting calls for something else, go change it in 30 seconds.
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#3 Dec 28 2010 at 7:11 AM Rating: Good
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I agree, if your in exp group, DD should be enough as long as your getting haste support. Atma of the Ultimate is definately useful for serious tanking and/or times when you want to tank a mob but not feed it any TP.

I personally have no probs tanking wielding Ichi-an+1/Kamome using just RR/GH.
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#4 Dec 28 2010 at 10:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Time spent nuking is time spent not getting TP. You're lowering your DPS in the long run (no melee damage during that timeframe, no TP gained towards WS), especially if you're changing your atma setup to support it. Besides, melee cap hate in 2 minutes tops (can often cap in under 60 seconds)... If you need "hate-grabbing tools" to cap hate faster than your backline then something is wrong, be it your setup or an overly spammy nuker. Hybrid setups are more for situations where you'd actually benefit from having two sources of damage - Amphitrite is an example of this.
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#5 Dec 28 2010 at 6:54 PM Rating: Good
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That kind of damage is still way too low to justify using up one of your atma slots.

Quote:
Atma of the Ultimate is definately useful for serious tanking and/or times when you want to tank a mob but not feed it any TP.


Don't ninjutsu nukes still feed TP?
#6 Dec 28 2010 at 11:19 PM Rating: Good
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when capping azure i routinely stack MM Ult and IT. my sans hit from 900-1k ni 700-900 futae 1700-2.2k and thats on /dnc. yah yer givin up most of yer katana damage, but if you really wanna hold hate, its more than rock solid its superior. as to the tp issue yer lookin at 1k damage for 6tp (w/jutsu's and capped SB) as a opposed to 8 crits in 5seconds. if tp is an issue its the way to go. ive recently added the yagentoshiro and a MaB+2 sekka. which allows me to dump the ele staves and actually utilize the /dnc abilities if needed.

not nearly as fun as A&O, RR, and VV but havin the blms check you over and over is well worth the trade off. i keep both nuking and dd sets w/ me and change it up as the situation calls. honestly changin atmas is the biggest hassle. but goin from top tier dd to top tier nuker is pretty neat. if you have the means i highly reccommend it.
#7 Dec 29 2010 at 3:30 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
when capping azure i routinely stack MM Ult and IT. my sans hit from 900-1k ni 700-900 futae 1700-2.2k and thats on /dnc. yah yer givin up most of yer katana damage, but if you really wanna hold hate, its more than rock solid its superior. as to the tp issue yer lookin at 1k damage for 6tp (w/jutsu's and capped SB) as a opposed to 8 crits in 5seconds. if tp is an issue its the way to go. ive recently added the yagentoshiro and a MaB+2 sekka. which allows me to dump the ele staves and actually utilize the /dnc abilities if needed.


Those kinda numbers makes it more intersting. Just curious, what gear are you using too? I've yet to make my nuke build, but nin is slowly becoming more and more my fav job (thank you RR/GH). I've always though about makin a pair of INT/MAB katanas.

I'm still not sure if tis enough to surpass a good atma/katana build with haste buffs tho.

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#8 Dec 29 2010 at 5:01 AM Rating: Decent
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I used to believe that spell that inflict damage give straight 10TP to the mob, so -ton Ninjutsu.
Subtle Blow affect this also ? or -ton don't give any TP ? I didn't really tested though but I got the feeling that 10 -ton is 100% TP to the mob... I may be wrong.
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#9 Dec 29 2010 at 6:41 AM Rating: Good
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nukes should give 5tp to the mob and sublte blow is also calculated, so i think ninjutsu gives its best in kite/nuke or back tanking situations
don't forget to keep up myoshu too
#10 Dec 29 2010 at 6:55 AM Rating: Good
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Mab+2 sekka, yagentoshiro, ---, snow satchet
ninja hatsuburi, ninjitsu torque, loq earring, moldavite earring
KO, dune bracers, diamond ring, demon ring w/ +2mab +2ma crit
crap back, desert rope, iga hakama+1, koga kyahan

8/8 ninjistsu 4/5 int
full raiton effect, full SB, rest on ice
G2 merits 3NE all san spells w/ xtra goin to hyoton and ration

as you can see even w/ this setup there is quite a bit of room for improvement. aside from the yagentoshiro everything else i had layin around the MH.

the high end numbers represent innin nukes. but even facing the mob ill bust for 900-1k. reg crits have been as high as 1.6k dont plan on gettin more than one or two innin nukes off as you will most certainly have hate afterwards.

been mullin over doin a 2nd ice katana as the first was stooopid easy.

now the big challenge is gettin it all down so i can farm my own Te's and gets ma kannagi.

hope that helps
#11 Dec 30 2010 at 3:09 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, that seems like a pretty easy set to make with exception to the yagentoshiro.

I'm wondering how much dmg a 2nd Sekka would add in comparison to the straight 10% ninjitsu bonus from yagentoshiro.

Plenty of room to HQ in places too. Also thinking, a kite/nuke strat using that set with something like Ninja Kyahan+1 would make a few more T3's solo-able.

I havn't merited NIN yet other than reducing 4/4EVA for 4/8 Katana, so looking forward to maxing another job in that respect. I'm thinking the yagentoshiro adds a fair amount of dmg, becasue a 1K nuke would only be just over 900 w/o.
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#12 Dec 30 2010 at 7:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Atma : Kirin & Ultimate (my best "mab" one for the moment, lacking of many atma for now)
Abyssite Furtherance : x2
Gear : NQ staff, AF1 head (AF2 in storage >.<), Kirin Osode, Koga Kayhan, everything else was Haste. (so really nothing particular)
Target : Cirein-croin

Without Futae or Innin (I actually tossed Yonin since I end-up tanking)

Constant 330+ DMG with no merit and so -ton: Ni only. Only Suiton was completely resisted (obvious for a water base NM).
I was there only for !! grellow and well enjoyed the fight quite a lot ^^ (didn't end-up tanking like that since Lv40 with this job XD, edit with -ton I mean ;).

Edited, Dec 30th 2010 2:47pm by Neraya
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#13 Jan 06 2011 at 1:53 AM Rating: Decent
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dondaddy wrote:
Mab+2 sekka, yagentoshiro, ---, snow satchet
ninja hatsuburi, ninjitsu torque, loq earring, moldavite earring
KO, dune bracers, diamond ring, demon ring w/ +2mab +2ma crit
crap back, desert rope, iga hakama+1, koga kyahan

8/8 ninjistsu 4/5 int
full raiton effect, full SB, rest on ice
G2 merits 3NE all san spells w/ xtra goin to hyoton and ration

as you can see even w/ this setup there is quite a bit of room for improvement. aside from the yagentoshiro everything else i had layin around the MH.

the high end numbers represent innin nukes. but even facing the mob ill bust for 900-1k. reg crits have been as high as 1.6k dont plan on gettin more than one or two innin nukes off as you will most certainly have hate afterwards.

been mullin over doin a 2nd ice katana as the first was stooopid easy.

now the big challenge is gettin it all down so i can farm my own Te's and gets ma kannagi.

hope that helps


That's all well and good, but you are losing substantial DoT from Dual Wield, Haste, and ACC with that setup. Perhaps at 99 you can melee TW or EP mobs with that set up. I don't really care.

I stand by my statement that it's situational; great for kiting, great for backwards tanking, great for getting an azure kill. If you are backwards tanking sure, its great.

It is far less damage than a melee set up in a fully hasted situation.

Neraya wrote:
Atma : Kirin & Ultimate (my best "mab" one for the moment, lacking of many atma for now)
Abyssite Furtherance : x2
Gear : NQ staff, AF1 head (AF2 in storage >.<), Kirin Osode, Koga Kayhan, everything else was Haste. (so really nothing particular)
Target : Cirein-croin

Without Futae or Innin (I actually tossed Yonin since I end-up tanking)

Constant 330+ DMG with no merit and so -ton: Ni only. Only Suiton was completely resisted (obvious for a water base NM).
I was there only for !! grellow and well enjoyed the fight quite a lot ^^ (didn't end-up tanking like that since Lv40 with this job XD, edit with -ton I mean ;).

Edited, Dec 30th 2010 2:47pm by Neraya


You used a staff. Immense loss of DoT, loss of WS, loss of atmas...

Why would you even compare the two situations?

A NIN with no haste and only 2 atmas [rr/vv] would destroy a ni/san alternating NIN.

Edited, Jan 6th 2011 1:54am by Palides
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#14 Jan 06 2011 at 3:30 AM Rating: Decent
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If you ask me now how I'll handle this, straight tank with melee hit of course. This was simply a kited fight so I tried -ton for fun. No point to argue :P

And then knowing that I tried to see how -ton works for me, I tried to do with the best I had in inventory (sadly some gear in storage) and I conclude that with minimum effort it can do some damage, enough to keep a good enough "dot".
I'm now thinking about using this kind of damage against the erruca in attohwa, I hate his fire spike :?
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