From a comment made here (or possibly on BG), in the back of my mind I was remembering ninjutsu nukes as being fairly decent in Abyssea. In a discussion with a friend today, was offering to let him help out on a Cirein kill later, as we got the pop for it tonight. He has nin as one of his mains, and I was wondering about the viability of him using it to nuke in this fight.
We picked up Minikin Monstrosity atma the other night, and got Baying Moon a while back, so he has the two main atma I'd think you'd want for this sort of thing, so I had him run in to do a quick test of the damage potential. He didn't gear for anything in particular (Moldavite left in mog house, etc), and wasn't using his staves. Results:
So, the numbers seem promising.
I ran out to do some quick tests on the damage formulas (my nin is 75, mostly unmerited), since I couldn't find anything on wiki or a quick search here. What I got (for ni) is:
+1 int = +1 damage
Since I was testing on level 0 mobs, and had a good +80 int over them and wasn't seeing the referenced inflection point noted on the wiki for basic nukes, I'll assume that that holds for the entire dInt range.
According to wiki:
V = base damage
M = dInt multiplier
Base V for :ni is 78
Base V for :san is 105
Base M for :ni is 1.0
Base M for :san is 1.5
M appears to be true for :ni (I don't have any :san to test), but V does not.
Nin/war vs lvl 0 mobs:
70 int: 133
74 int: 137
77 int: 140
Given the 1.0 M from the magic damage page, that shows that at 70+ dInt, it still hasn't reached an inflection point of reducing the value of additional int. Seems you can treat int as +1 base damage for all dInt.
The magic damage page says that :ni has a V of 78. If that's the case, dInt for the first test should be 55, indicating a level 0 mob has a 15 int. That seems highly unlikely, given that Burn can reduce the mob's int to 0 (or 1, at least). Level 0 mobs also shouldn't have an int higher than 10. Retesting as nin/blm with Burn (-9 int), which should reduce the mob's Int to no higher than 1:
+24 MAB from trait
76 int: 178 => 144
83 int: 187 => 151
Given 76 int vs Burned is 144, while 77 int vs non-Burned is 140, damage increased by the equivalent of 5 int. 5 int seems a likely value for the int of a level 0 mob, which would be the max amount the Burn could reduce (max for the spell would be -9).
Therefore the base V for :ni should be 68, not 78. I can't verify :san just yet (only 1 merit point on hand).
From my friend's test (and removing 30 MAB):
Ni: 234 => 180
San: 397 => 306
Given at least a 120 Int (base + MM atma), and the fact that M is 1.5 for san vs 1.0 for ni, about 60 of that can be attributed to the different int multiplier. That reduces the difference in damage to 66. To reduce to +36 would require another 60 int being present, which is highly unlikely (he wasn't geared for it). The V value for san needs to be verified.
Given this, I'm going to have to assume that V for san is incorrect as well. Until I can test this, will go with +60 on base damage, for 128.
Innin applies as a multiplier to total damage after staff multiplier is applied. So damage is: base * MAB * Staff * Innin.
Innin multiplier ranged from +30% immediately after use to +10% when it was just about to end.
Putting that all together, I came up with the following potential numbers:
MAB2 - +24 MAB
Fast Cast 2 - 15% Fast Cast
Atma of the Minikin Monstrosity: 50 Int, +10 refresh
Atma of the Baying Moon: +30 MAB
HQ Staff (+15%)
Phantom Tathlum (+2 int)
Koga Head (+5% dmg) - Not sure where in the equation this applies; going to assume adds to Innin level
Lemegeton Medallion (+4 int) - can't use Ugg pendant because of atma refresh; may use Artemis Medal
Moldavite Earring (+5 MAB)
Morion's Earring +1 (+2 int)
Kirin's Osode (+10 int)
Dusk Gloves (3% haste)
Snow Ring (+5 int)
Snow Ring (+5 int)
Federal Army Mantle (+2 int)
Swift Belt (4% haste)
Byakko's Haidate (5% haste) - friend doesn't have Denali
Ninja Kyahan +1 (+6 int)
Int: +36 from gear, +20 from cruor buffs, +50 from atma, +106 total
MAB: +24 from sub, +5 from gear, +5 from merit, +30 from atma, +64 total
Haste: 12% from gear, 7.5% from Fast Cast, 19.5% total (34.5% with Haste, 56.5% with Marches)
Recast on San: 48 seconds innate, 39 seconds with Haste, 30 seconds with Marches
Not sure what base int for nin/rdm is at 85, going to assume ~75.
Ni base: 68 + 4 (merit) + (75 (base int) + 106 (add int) - 80 (mob int)) * 1.0 = 173
San base: 128 + 4 (merit) + (75 (base int) + 106 (add int) - 80 (mob int)) * 1.5 = 283
Assuming an even distribution of merits in both Tier 1 and Tier 2 (2 merits in 4, 1 merit in 2 for each category ninjutsu), and uses the higher damage ones for the numbers above (+4 to base damage, +5 MAB).
Damage: Base * MAB * Staff * Innin
Ni: 173 * 1.64 * 1.15 * (1.05, 1.15 ~ 1.35) = 341, 373 ~ 438
San: 283 * 1.64 * 1.15 * (1.05, 1.15 ~ 1.35) = 559, 612 ~ 719
Given sufficient haste, you should be able to clear one wheel cycle of each within the recast time of the san spells, more or less.
Assuming an average Innin bonus of 20%, that means something on the order of 405 per :Ni, 665 per :San. If you can maintain that for two full cycles (1 minute without pulling hate), that's 12,840 damage in 1 minute. Without the Innin bonus, it's 10,800 damage per minute.
Realistically, you're going to get resists, have mobs with MDB or higher Int, not always get the Innin bonus, pull hate if you're doing that much damage so have to do other stuff to interrupt the cycle, etc. Still, if you can manage even half of that damage, that's 5500-6000 damage per minute, which is the equivalent of a Blm doing 3 high tier nukes per minute for 1800-2000 damage each.
Overall, damage is between 100 and 200 DPS without any melee at all. Give about 8 TP per ~500 damage instead of 36, not counting weaponskills.
1. Do the above numbers seem realistic?
2. Has anyone seriously tried this? If so, how well does it work?
3. Is Yagentoshiro + some other katana (no idea what else is available) a better combo than an NQ or HQ staff, given that you also have the option to melee? Lose out on a lot of magic accuracy, though... Maybe Sekka +1 with +14 m.acc, as those two together would come close to an NQ staff.
Edit: Yagentoshiro + Sekka +1 with Int/MAB would give a higher max damage than an HQ staff, but the lower m.acc probably makes it a poor tradeoff.
Edited, Nov 4th 2010 9:55am by Kinematics