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DD as Nin in Abyssea - numbers surprised meFollow

#1 Oct 20 2010 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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I like NIN, but just like majority of nin, in exp. parties, my NIN is invited pretty much for the first voke. That's how I got to lvl 80.

In getting to 85, I was lucky to be in an alliance with a PLD. So, I went Innin all the time and pretend to be half a thief.

The damage numbers surprised me - exp on coeurls in Attohwa - starting from lvl 84, I see Jin jumped from regular 500 to regular upper 900 to 1k. Highest was 1.5k. It's doing ... great. I used the same buff when I lvl'ed sam and war and drk, the average WS numbers from Jin seem somewhat better on my Nin, although the highest damage is not the best.I got hate a lot and constantly need mage to silena paralyna me.

My NIN uses the same old craps (Senji and Perdu, trial weapons still in stage 1, and WS gears are the same as before lvl cap lift). Either SE bumped Jin accuracy or Innin is really powerful with critical hits. Or both.

Funny a Nyzul shout refused my lvl 85 NIN (I was just bored, not really care about the gears), saying it's not a DD. It made me laugh for they shouted for close to another hour with 5/6.

PS: from tanking's perspective, NIN can grab hate easier with Innin than using Yonin if only SE remove this "behind" restriction.

Edited, Oct 20th 2010 2:18pm by icebabyisme

Edited, Oct 20th 2010 2:19pm by icebabyisme
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#2 Oct 20 2010 at 12:21 PM Rating: Good
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Yea it works well. My past 3-4 abyssea invites were for DD instead of voke and i could hold my own. Its really fun but would be even better if i coud get hold off some decent atma.

Just a shame im capped on everything i want atm =(
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#3 Oct 20 2010 at 9:35 PM Rating: Good
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From what I have gathered recently via Parse. Ninja can be a pretty damn good DD if the user has the right equipment and know how. My ninja tends to outparse most traditional DDs these days on my server, but I think half the reason is because most of these DD's are either slackin off or don't know what they are doing.
#4 Oct 21 2010 at 10:13 AM Rating: Decent
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When I leveled my ninja in Abyssea I found it slightly ridiculous how powerful it was. Parsed highest overall at level 78, with the closest person being an 80WAR, 2% behind me. Though this WAR was really not slacking. Haub+1, Byakkos, Perdu axe, etc. all quite nice gear. Probably better than my slightly shabby NIN (Byakkos and Mirke and such but was using Senj/Fudo). Plus, they were actually trying (as evidenced by the WS-amount).

The rest of the DD's were at about half of either of us so they don't really count for much, but as a 78 NIN I was impressed with the damage output. Course the next day is when all this stuff started popping up in Zam forums about how Ninja is worthless and such. Just kinda been going 'wat'.

Of course it's not often we get to just sit on Innin the whole time - and not be expected to pull.
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#5 Oct 21 2010 at 11:41 AM Rating: Decent
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No real surprise to me, idk why, perhaps due to the "ninjas a dead job" bs ppl have in they're heads, but NIN is still the FASTEST hitting job in FFXI. With a 50% Dual Wield(cap?) and now achievable 25%+ haste along with it, you got yourself a very insane DoT DD. Imagine 2 Relic Dynamis+ Abyssea NIN with those stats, thats a ~164 round delay NIN with 52-53 damage weapons. Keep in mind also that NIN like DRK and BLU aren't just Melee DD. In a pinch with a good ninjutsu/MAcc/MAB set NINs can also do damage on mobs that aren't melee friendly, and being that NIN spells -resistance spells, you assist your BLMs and other spellcasters with they're magic.

Edited, Oct 21st 2010 1:48pm by Coyoteblackzero
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#6 Oct 21 2010 at 4:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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NIN has always been a strong DD as long as you gear well enough, get enough buffs from your mages, and don't spend too much time casting spells and using abilities (it's a bit of an irony that NIN gets a lot of its damage from auto-attacking, specifically from haste and dual wield, yet NIN is most expected to use JAs and spells which keep you standing still and piss away the aforementioned benefits). never underestimate DoT.
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#7 Oct 21 2010 at 6:32 PM Rating: Decent
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I think nin always has been a dd, and i also think your higher ws dmg is just a factor of being 85. I have noticed a major jump in dmg on all 5 of my jobs. With abyssea cruor buffs we get really strong and the longer your there the stronger you get. With mage tonic san spells do 200+ dmg so using futate on one spell and cycling through the wheel is easily 1300+ factor in the 2-4 melee hits between cast and your right up there with the rest of the dd. I have popped off a few 900 dmg Kamu's in abyssea. Not to metion that we attack really fast, only thing holding us back is tp gain.
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#8 Oct 21 2010 at 8:12 PM Rating: Good
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only thing holding us back imo is lacking of throwing option and lack of inventory space.
at the press of a few buttons i could go from DD, to Tank, to magic damage, to ranged attack, to kiter, but i am increasingly finding it harder and harder to keep all my gear on me. and have room for drops.
#9 Oct 24 2010 at 10:03 PM Rating: Good
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LordFaramir wrote:
When I leveled my ninja in Abyssea I found it slightly ridiculous how powerful it was. Parsed highest overall at level 78, with the closest person being an 80WAR, 2% behind me. Though this WAR was really not slacking. Haub+1, Byakkos, Perdu axe, etc. all quite nice gear. Probably better than my slightly shabby NIN (Byakkos and Mirke and such but was using Senj/Fudo). Plus, they were actually trying (as evidenced by the WS-amount).


What atma's were you using?

Just wondering, becasue atma's are worth more than gear in some cases, if u wern't using any, then your abyss group's DD's must have been gimp. I got all the gear u got (senj/perdu/oldskool etc), but for some reason im parsing low where i parse in top 2-3 using mnk or sam. I don't hang about gimp abys pty's tho as i know i'll be wasting 4-5hours of extra time then i'd need to get the same result with a decent group.
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#10 Oct 25 2010 at 10:01 PM Rating: Good
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take into account
Your playstyle - are you a aggressive player, or are you the kind of person that sits in the back and waits for the puller to bring the mob to you....do you sit there and hold tp?,do you use Auto target and start going for the next mob as soon as current target dies, do you hold back because you are a scared lil girl and afraid everytime the mob looks in your directon. These are the things I see in a lot of players these days and I belive it is why I can tend to out parse them.
The reason im such an aggressive player is because on ninja.....you have to be. I learned back at the colibri camp that if you not up on it, your gonna get dusted. People seem to have slacked off since we left colibri behind from what I seen.

The other thing I see people getting hung up on is food. Some people just seem to not have any idea of what food they need to be eating with their current gear setup.

#11 Oct 27 2010 at 2:12 AM Rating: Good
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Imagine how much better you oculd do with Magian weapons, if you are a dedicated nin (which im not anymore) but if i was and it was my fav job I'd of been working on a Fire Sekka / Enchu setup.

Its taken me ~3months to get through Fire Taipans and Ursine for MNK, but ive also only been on less than half that time. If I personally was to work on Trial Katana's (which i might well do once Keito is finished) i'd prob just work on 2 Sekka's if you can still get credit on both katana's DW.



On another note, again this is more me personally and thinking what i'd like to use nin for in the future when i'm currently happy with my other DD jobs; I get this feeling SE are trying to push NIN into a front line nuker(and enfeeb obviously lol) and will continue to push it that way in comming updates on the way to 99. A pair of the MAB Sekka's would be great for this. ICE trials are also amazingly easy with the weather poping 90% of time in Northlands, and they are still better DD weapons than Senj/Perdu.

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#12 Oct 27 2010 at 2:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Upon seeing the damage number, I started to work on my katana trials. Yeah, it'd be nice to see them finished. I am not after the uber one (I hate NM), just WS damage one and the acc+14 dex+8 ones.

Had a LS NM run, both PLD died to that soulflayer NM (for key to pop Durrin), and I as nin was put up to tank on the spot. Tanked very well, and I managed a 1K WS on it too ( and kept hate on with occasional voke). I noticed the SAM in my party did 1.4k. But, I did not pop berserk because I was tanking, and SAM had finished trial weapon, me not. (He's a very good sam)

I have to say, I am loving NIN so much more now.

Sandmasterr wrote:
Imagine how much better you oculd do with Magian weapons, if you are a dedicated nin (which im not anymore) but if i was and it was my fav job I'd of been working on a Fire Sekka / Enchu setup.

Its taken me ~3months to get through Fire Taipans and Ursine for MNK, but ive also only been on less than half that time. If I personally was to work on Trial Katana's (which i might well do once Keito is finished) i'd prob just work on 2 Sekka's if you can still get credit on both katana's DW.



On another note, again this is more me personally and thinking what i'd like to use nin for in the future when i'm currently happy with my other DD jobs; I get this feeling SE are trying to push NIN into a front line nuker(and enfeeb obviously lol) and will continue to push it that way in comming updates on the way to 99. A pair of the MAB Sekka's would be great for this. ICE trials are also amazingly easy with the weather poping 90% of time in Northlands, and they are still better DD weapons than Senj/Perdu.

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#13 Oct 28 2010 at 3:09 AM Rating: Good
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Is the Dex/Acc Sekka really worth it? Pizza proveds the acc needed for any tough mobs left outside of abyss, and provides enough acc for most abyss stuff and thats before getting the atma's.

For an att starved job, the STR Sekka's seem to be the ones imo.
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#14 Oct 28 2010 at 5:39 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm also wondering about those but another thing to point for now is the available food.
It's correct to say that with Pizza we can get some nice Atk and the acc that we need to be caped or at least more than decent.

But in counterpart there’s other (and older) food option that are becoming more and more interesting like Red Curry. Yes they’re still quite expensive for a common use but Dragon Meat looks like more and more available with all those new NM that drops it (and older one that became more and more weak against us).

The thing with Red Curry is that it cap at 150 with a 652 base attack (+23%). Most of you (I didn’t get back yet) should have by now more than 400 atk easly meaning +100 atk bonus straight with this kind of food. Comparing with Pizza that is only 50atk, if you manage to live without the 40 acc from it, beside price, there’s no reason to not use this kind of food. Well this is where those weapons (and other equipments) will have a purpose.

Well since I’m still on my break, and further don’t know what will happen in near and not so near future I could be wrong =P That’s just a point of view being outside of the game for now.


Edited, Oct 28th 2010 1:40pm by Neraya
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#15 Oct 28 2010 at 9:37 AM Rating: Decent
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I debated between the two and could not find any debate over them on the forum to gain some insight. My reasoning was Jin is very ACC dependent, and I can get att/str food. Either str/att or dex/acc, I think it's just a toss up and just go with different food. Also, DEX crit is useful for ws too.


Sandmasterr wrote:
Is the Dex/Acc Sekka really worth it? Pizza proveds the acc needed for any tough mobs left outside of abyss, and provides enough acc for most abyss stuff and thats before getting the atma's.

For an att starved job, the STR Sekka's seem to be the ones imo.


PS: in light of the atmas we can get inside abyssea, str/att is not hard to get.

Edited, Oct 28th 2010 11:38am by icebabyisme

Edited, Oct 28th 2010 11:38am by icebabyisme
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#16 Oct 28 2010 at 12:24 PM Rating: Good
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True, but you need a lot more attack to cap it unles you always have atma/minuet/chaos/dia etc.

Its obviously all build specific, but it'd be a shame if have to still have to eat pizza once you've made the sekka.
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#17 Oct 28 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Decent
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What is attack cap and strength cap on NIN?


Sandmasterr wrote:
True, but you need a lot more attack to cap it unles you always have atma/minuet/chaos/dia etc.

Its obviously all build specific, but it'd be a shame if have to still have to eat pizza once you've made the sekka.
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#18 Oct 29 2010 at 2:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Your Atk is capped when is equal or above 2 times your opponent Def.
If the monster has 327 Def (old Greater Colibri Lv82) then your Atk is capped at 654.

One idea is to keep your Acc the closest possible to the cap (95% hit rate) or at least above 85% hit rate and the fully increase your Atk (and haste) afterward.

Back before the level cap increase and those magian weapons, Pizza changed this quite a bite allowing more flexibility in our gear setup to get those 2 stats high enough to compete with 2handers and their cheated acc/atk =P

But with new gear and cap increase there’s probably some change to do, see my post above ;)

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#19 Oct 29 2010 at 2:45 AM Rating: Good
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It all depends on what mob your fighting. Im not a math wiz, but i know some of the basics.

STR: If its a possitive number: (Your STR - mobs VIT +4)/4 adds to the base dmg of your weapon. The number produced is called fSTR and is added to the base dmg of your weapon. The cap is 8 + (your weapon DMG / 9).

So for a weapon like Sekka+1 43DMG/9 = 4 (you dont include the decimals). So from STR, you could add an additional 12DMG to you weapon if your fSTR was high enough (which was always easy on Too weak mobs and easy prey, but with Atma's, can be done on alot harder mobs).



Attack: Gonna keep it simple, but to learn more check pDIF / ratio

The combined dmg of your weapon (weapon DMG + fSTR) is then multiplied by a small number call pDIF. Thats where attack comes into play.

(Your attack / Mobs defence) = A number between 0-2. On top of that, if your fighting a mob of a higher level you get a lvl diff penalty to the final number of -0.05 per level above you it is, you also get a random element added to it which varies the end number anywhere from (i think) -0.4 to +0.4. The final number is multiplied by your DMG to give you total dmg.





So to answer your question, If a mob has ALOT of defence, you'll need ALOT of attack to cap on. Thats why de-buffs like Dia and attack buffs like Minuet are so useful.

Same, if a mob has very high VIT, you could end up with a negative number for fSTR vus reducing the dmg of your weapon.
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#20 Nov 13 2010 at 10:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Personally if I was a dual wielding melee I'd go with the STR options. STR means more to faster weapons then to slower ones because it doesn't factor in delay. 8 STR is +2 D value if your dSTR is over 12 and is applied on every hit.

Main: Sekka +1 D43 STR +8 ATK + 18 (really +22 after STR) Delay 201
Off: Enchu+1 OAT 40% Delay D39 Delay 232 (232/1.4 = 165.7 average delay)
DW: 40% (DW 35 + Suppa), you guys could prolly throw mirke or other things in here ontop of this.

201 + 165.7 = 366.7 * 0.6 = 220.02 [220] /2 = 110 delay per attack before haste is factored.

An increase of 2 "D" will have the following effects,
43+2 = 45/43 = 1.0465, 4.65% increase in DoT on main hand.

39+2 = 41/39 = 1.0512m 5.12% increase in DoT on of hand

Now compare this to something like a GAXE

Atlas +1 D108 Delay 482 STR + 8 Atk + 22 (32 Atk after STR)

+2 fSTR is,
108 + 2 = 110/108 = 1.0185, 1.85% increase in DoT

That bonus is applied once per 482 delay units.

482/110 = 4.381 or 428% slower.

Basically you've hit the monster four times and got the fSTR bonus four times in the time it takes the GAXE to swing once. For every 1fSTR bonus the WAR gets the NIN gets 4.38 fSTR bonus. So you can see that for fast weapon users capping fSTR really helps out in your damage total, where as for the slower 2H weapon users it doesn't do much. This fSTR disparity was the entire reason SE had to do the "2H update" patch, NIN's and MNKs were crushing people if they took advantage of this.

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#21 Nov 26 2010 at 3:31 AM Rating: Good
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If you have the VV atma, the fSTR boost (+DMG bonus) from fire seka's just went out the window although theres still plenty of att on them.

Looking at the current situation i'd obviously like 2xMAB katanas for work on furutre build once mog sack comes out, but for DD it really is a serious toss-up between STR & DEX sekka's, again, maybe one of each is the most viable. The main aim for any DW job should be to get 2x Lunar abbysites and the VV/RR atma's - then work out whats best for you.

The WSDMG+10% mainhand is a possibility too once you have VV/RR, boosting those Jin's further is only a good thing.
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#22 Nov 26 2010 at 4:30 AM Rating: Decent
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I completely agree that atma changes lots of things. I lean towards the fire ones because while its easy to cap acc, especially with pizza+1, its not so easy to cap ratio / attack. With VV/RR your fSTR should be capped or near capped along with dDex crit rate, capping acc is trivial so that leaves you with attack. Your aiming at maybe 800 attack for cap depending on target, less for ash / trash mobs but more for NMs, this strongly favors the attack katanas. Yeah I can totally see the two MAB katana's being useful as optional weapons. Good for when you need magic type damage, especially mixed with two maxed SAN spells.
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#23 Dec 30 2010 at 8:03 PM Rating: Decent
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I have a question... what subs do you guys use while in Aby? I know War is still the sub of choice for tanking, but does it really matter what subs ninja uses nowadays for simple DD?
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#24 Dec 31 2010 at 3:19 AM Rating: Good
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I plan on using /WAR and /MNK counter tanking mainly.


Sj's DD power has been minimised in abyss
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#25 Jan 01 2011 at 5:47 AM Rating: Decent
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/MNK if i'm tanking anything serious, /WAR if i'm there to do damage, /DNC if i'm duoing with my dual box brd.
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#26 Jan 01 2011 at 8:19 AM Rating: Good
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I know the title of the thread was made 3month back, but makes me smile now.
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#27 Jan 02 2011 at 11:00 PM Rating: Good
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/MNK? Why? Just /WAR. More damage, voke, zerk, gressor, its perfect. A NIN that needs counter, isn't much of a NIN.
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#28 Jan 03 2011 at 4:53 AM Rating: Good
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/MNK? Why? Just /WAR. More damage, voke, zerk, gressor, its perfect. A NIN that needs counter, isn't much of a NIN.


Considering almost every NM you fight has a 50% double attack rate or higher, has decently high accuracy, can instantly strip all your shadows with TP spamming attacks, and cast Aga 3-4's on you, you're god damn right I want something to fall back on.

Unless you tank in evasion gear, which kind of kills the point of /WAR because your damage will suck.

Counterstance is amazing, the extra HP is also something that's really nice for tanking, as with Cruor buffs I get about 200 more then /WAR gives me.

Aggressor is useless in Abyssea unless you're fighting a THF mob. Some NM's I don't even have to use anything other than Utsu ni because i'll just counter spam it.

Berserk and Double attack is nice, which is why WAR is always going to be my SJ of choice if I can get away with it, but if i'm tanking things with a lowman group of 3-4 people, /MNK all the way. It's the safest choice.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 5:54am by Zafire
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#29 Jan 03 2011 at 6:01 AM Rating: Decent
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The thing that annoys me with /MNK is :
Evasion > Parry > Utsusemi > Counter

But as you says, sometime evasion and shadow aren't enough. But I wonder if then you should not let someone else tank ? (MNK/ or even PLD/).

But still, I also want to see and try that, but have to level mnk first (lv5 >.<) and to many things to do before.
So any test and report would be great ^^
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#30 Jan 03 2011 at 11:07 AM Rating: Decent
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NickRomano wrote:
/MNK? Why? Just /WAR. More damage, voke, zerk, gressor, its perfect. A NIN that needs counter, isn't much of a NIN.

You say that like Voke actually does something useful for tanks.

Mobs with lots of AoEs (especially magical) or frequent and accurate attacks may benefit from the use of Counterstance just because you won't always have shadows up. Is it needed? No, I'd say it rarely if ever is "needed" if you're competent and your backline is too. Is it potentially useful? Certainly.
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