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Possible Solution(s) to NIN falling behind...Follow

#1 Aug 26 2010 at 12:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Disclaimer: I'm only going off of things I've read on these forums, suggestion threads, random posts and whatever "game knowledge" I've accumulated since I started playing 6 years ago. I'm not a Ninja. I have no desire to be a Ninja, but I very much dislike when one job (with such a freakin cool concept) gets shafted repeatedly.

So I offer a couple solutions and would love feedback.

Innin seems to have been SE's attempt at "fixing" lolNIN damage. However, due to the nature of melee burns, being behind the mob isn't always possible, as THFs can probably point out as well.

Solution: Innin description: Puts the user in a focused state whereupon the target's weaknesses become obvious, granting the user better Accuracy, Critical Hit Rate and increased Ninjutsu Damage. This focused state leaves the user open to attack, reducing evasion and parry rate.(No longer have to be behind the target)

As any fighter can tell you, when you start to focus on attacking your opponent's weaknesses, you can often leave yourself at a defensive disadvantage, so this would work very well for NIN. Making it level 50 or, like with Call Wyvern, unusable when subbed, would take care of other jobs taking advantage of it.

As for its effect on blink-tanking...I left the ENMITY part out for a reason. Impaired Evasion and Parry already gets rid of a couple of the +points for NIN tanking, but increased damage might make up for it.

Solution 2
As obvious a solution as this is, I'm not sure why no-one has come up with it before (I'm sure someone has, I've just never read it).
A NIN-only series of returning throwing weapons with substantial damage.

Shurikens are awesome for damage dealing, but expensive as hell. If you've seen the movie "Kick Ass", you might recall the part in the hallway at the bad-guy's building where Hit Girl has a throwing weapon on a rope, if you want to make it a realistic, actually exists in the real world kind of weapon. We already pretend that Chakrams and Boomerangs will come back after hitting something...we could always pretend some more.

We could see a realistic return to /RNG possibly with emphasis on ATK+ gear due to the Accuracy Bonuses the Ranger sub offers. MAYBE SE would be awesome enough to also create a few NIN-only Throwing WSs!

Just a couple ideas of mine.
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#2dilthanas, Posted: Aug 26 2010 at 6:52 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) ive stopped playing its no fun anymore on my favourite job however my ideas are:
#3 Aug 26 2010 at 12:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Why not just give us a Good Single Hit Weaponskill that followed along the lines of Gekko?
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#4 Aug 26 2010 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah I had it with Ninja and these loldates, it was my favorite job and my first to 75 but after taking the shaft so many times it's not even fun anymore...

Thanks to the horrible relic trials (smashing my head on a desk is more fun) and a bunch of crappy Ninja updates I'm taking a long over due break from this game and the way things are looking it may be permanent, I've put too much work into my favorite job just to see it handled like this and no longer even worth playing anymore period. I mean what do we get, crappy ninjitsu, magic burst bonus, and next update skillchain bonus... what a bunch of craptastic stuff, plus whenever has Ninja ever been a great skillchain job?!

It's a big joke, and I for one am not laughing anymore... so long FFXI.
#5 Aug 26 2010 at 3:31 PM Rating: Good
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As far as ninja DD is concerned, there should be less of a focus on deliberate "corrective" actions (such as removing the positioning condition on Innin) and more attention paid to future additions that seem to be inevitable or at least wouldn't be surprising:

(1) Weapons with higher base damage (and similar katana delays as in the past, or weapons with higher base damage/delay ratios). Ninja benefits (and will continue to benefit) relatively more than most other jobs (particularly two-hander jobs and monk) from this, in part because typical combinations like Senju/Perdu represent a pretty low standard at level 75 compared to Destroyers for MNK, Perdu Voulge for WAR, etc., also because NIN's delay per attack round is low to begin with, considering typical levels of dual wield (this before delay reduction via haste).

(2) The next level of dual wield mastery. Whatever level(s) further increases are introduced, this, along with (1), will further enhance NIN's rate of damage output. 5% would be perfunctory, 10% would be pretty good. Remember that the rate of return increases with increasing delay reduction from dual wield (holding all other factors fixed), even though it doesn't increase as much as it does by increasing haste (holding all other factors fixed). We're talking about ninja, not dual-wielding axes on WAR.

(3) A better weapon skill. Blade: Jin is the best katana weapon skill by default, but it's not a great weapon skill even for one-handed weapons (nominally 3 hits, 4 with off-hand, 1 fewer than Vorpal Blade and 2 fewer, or technically about 1.5 fewer, than Rampage, and it doesn't seem to have a critical hit rate bonus at 100 TP compared to Evisceration), so it wouldn't be shocking to have something better introduced between level 80 and 99, whatever form it takes.

(1) has already occurred (Magian trials, Hochomasamune) and will continue to occur, (2) is likely to be introduced, and (3) is not exactly inevitable but would not be a surprise were one to be introduced.

Would all of the above combined make up for the accuracy/attack/Hasso bonuses that two-handers enjoy? (A situation where two-handers get to "exploit" these bonuses is a situation where one-handed jobs suffer from less attack/accuracy/STR/haste in comparison.) Game mechanics dictate possibilities, so yes it's quite possible, and this is without Innin being touched.

People want to hold up dancer having Saber Dance, Auric Dagger, and Charis Necklace (easy additional dual wield with minor opportunity costs) and monk as examples of "why bother with NIN DD?", but it's not like ninja really has anything better to do at the moment (as far as a clearly defined, relevant, and meaningful niche is concerned, quite different from being "useless"), while the marginal benefit of Haste Samba alone obviously should deter the use of DNC as a bona-fide DD (current or future available DD gear for DNC notwithstanding) and monk usually trounces 2-handers without Hasso anyway as far as pure DD goes (and enjoys greater versatility than most other DDs).

Edited, Aug 26th 2010 5:43pm by Antisense
#6 Aug 26 2010 at 5:13 PM Rating: Default
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i don't see why Ninja has to give up their 2nd defensive trait(evasion) to DD, even DNC can DD without gimping their evasion.
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#7 Aug 27 2010 at 1:08 AM Rating: Good
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Mostly because you pretty much choose one role or the other. You're EITHER a tank or a DD. If you were a tank AND a DD, and did each amazingly, everyone would scream because the balance was off. People are currently moaning because NIN has fallen in both categories due to the way enmity works in FFXI.

Would you sacrifice some EVA and Parry skill in order to double your damage output? You kinda already do if you're gearing for ATK/STR/Haste anyway.

Think of SCH. They can heal really well and(or?) Nuke really well, but if they want to be the best nukers possible, they need the MABs from /BLM which means they have to sacrifice Stoneskin, Blink and Phalanx (basically, survivability) to do so.
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#8 Aug 27 2010 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Think of SCH. They can heal really well and(or?) Nuke really well, but if they want to be the best nukers possible, they need the MABs from /BLM which means they have to sacrifice Stoneskin, Blink and Phalanx (basically, survivability) to do so.


/RDM now gives the same amount of MAB that /BLM does, and MAB III will never be accessible because it's level 50 for BLM.

Just saying...

Even before the cap increase, MAB II was only a 4% improvement over MAB I (which was 20%). /RDM works just fine. And we still get Stoneskin, Blink, and Phalanx.
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#9 Aug 27 2010 at 12:39 PM Rating: Decent
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I preferred RDM sub anyway because of Accession Enspells for parties.

I'll admit I didn't do enough research to see MAB II for RDM @ 40. Fail on my part.
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#10 Aug 28 2010 at 8:37 PM Rating: Good
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Hmmmm.... Here's my take on the subject.

NIN has been king since it came out, mostly because of Utsusemi. I like that there are other jobs that can do things differently, and that there are now a lot of mobs in which Utsu is useless for certain tanking situations. NIN is still great against other things. Its good to have a little diversity.

To anyone who says NIN tanking was nerfed....

I held hate vs PLD's before Yonin, I held hate vs PLD's after yonin, I held hate vs PLD's after the spell ENM adjustment.
Before my playtime fell off and pre level uncap, I would regularly tank Gods in sky, telling the BLM's to go full out and burn all MP, and then pop manafont. When the mob died it was either on me, or had turned only once or twice during the fight. My best friend is a BLM, and we regularly would have a bet before we popped the god if he would die or not. He has everything a blm could have minus the Morrigan's set, including some very nice peices like +INT Weskit, +4 elemental skill on Prism Cape, relic, and regularly pops the abj drink and food that drop in sky when we did gods.

I don't think there is anything wrong with /DRK; /RDM might have taken a slight hit. Nin tanking is still fine in my opinion.

NIN DD is just not what it could be. WS is not as powerful, Store TP does less for us, A- weap hurts as we gain in levels. We are stuck with sushi or pizza, and miss out on the really great attack food. Realistic solutions [to me] include:

- Yonin/Innin as a 'stance' like Seigan/Hasso, and possibly remove the positional requirement of Innin, although it has never bothered me before. I've always run to the front/back on THF, and run the front on SAM before WS. It doesn't bother me on NIN to run behind the mob.

- A WS similar to other 1 hit, in that it has a strong STR mod, and pDIF bonus, ala Y/G/K or Spinning Slash. OR...

- Increase the crit rate on Jin. I love when I hit a Double attack and full crit and you see those 1k+ Jins. Alternatively, it makes me cringe to get a full return that's only 5-6-700, and then hit a 3 hit that does 1k because of crit[s].

Things to look forward to:

- Innin is primarily ours. Doesn't mean much when THF's and MNK's are subbing war in abyssea and they get access to Aggressor, but it still helps.

- We get Aggressor at 90. I've always wanted it lol.

- We'll be hitting much faster soon with increased dual wield tiers.

Will SE ever do these things? Probably not. Will NIN be my first 99? You're damn right.

Edited, Aug 28th 2010 9:39pm by Palides
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#11 Aug 30 2010 at 10:03 AM Rating: Good
Palides wrote:
Hmmmm.... Here's my take on the subject.

NIN has been king since it came out, mostly because of Utsusemi. I like that there are other jobs that can do things differently, and that there are now a lot of mobs in which Utsu is useless for certain tanking situations. NIN is still great against other things. Its good to have a little diversity.

To anyone who says NIN tanking was nerfed....

I held hate vs PLD's before Yonin, I held hate vs PLD's after yonin, I held hate vs PLD's after the spell ENM adjustment.
Before my playtime fell off and pre level uncap, I would regularly tank Gods in sky, telling the BLM's to go full out and burn all MP, and then pop manafont. When the mob died it was either on me, or had turned only once or twice during the fight. My best friend is a BLM, and we regularly would have a bet before we popped the god if he would die or not. He has everything a blm could have minus the Morrigan's set, including some very nice peices like +INT Weskit, +4 elemental skill on Prism Cape, relic, and regularly pops the abj drink and food that drop in sky when we did gods.

I don't think there is anything wrong with /DRK; /RDM might have taken a slight hit. Nin tanking is still fine in my opinion.

NIN DD is just not what it could be. WS is not as powerful, Store TP does less for us, A- weap hurts as we gain in levels. We are stuck with sushi or pizza, and miss out on the really great attack food. Realistic solutions [to me] include:

- Yonin/Innin as a 'stance' like Seigan/Hasso, and possibly remove the positional requirement of Innin, although it has never bothered me before. I've always run to the front/back on THF, and run the front on SAM before WS. It doesn't bother me on NIN to run behind the mob.

- A WS similar to other 1 hit, in that it has a strong STR mod, and pDIF bonus, ala Y/G/K or Spinning Slash. OR...

- Increase the crit rate on Jin. I love when I hit a Double attack and full crit and you see those 1k+ Jins. Alternatively, it makes me cringe to get a full return that's only 5-6-700, and then hit a 3 hit that does 1k because of crit[s].

Things to look forward to:

- Innin is primarily ours. Doesn't mean much when THF's and MNK's are subbing war in abyssea and they get access to Aggressor, but it still helps.

- We get Aggressor at 90. I've always wanted it lol.

- We'll be hitting much faster soon with increased dual wield tiers.

Will SE ever do these things? Probably not. Will NIN be my first 99? You're damn right.


Finally! I'm tired of reading these threads of NIN "sucking", it doesn't, in fact it doesn't suck anymore today than it did a year ago. Any good NIN is still a top tier tank should the need arise, and as a DD it's a viable option, especially against mobs that aren't being zerged. NIN does need some adjustments if it's to be a DD, but the thing that amazes me with all the QQ'ing is that suddenly we're supposed to pretend NIN sucks because it's not a top tier DD, uh, duh, it never has been, so why is it suddenly an issue now? And the folks that keep coming out of the woodwork to complain about NIN being dead as a tank because of an adjustment to RDM, my question to you is why weren't you subbing /DRK to begin with? Weapon Bash and Last Resort at the onset of a fight blow away anything a /RDM can do, so why is NIN tanking supposed to be dead because Sleep and Dispel got nerfed? Stop getting caught up in the rhetoric of a few people who have complained about NIN for years and are using very rigid examples that do not apply most of the time to further their arguments, if you like the job then learn how to play it.
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#12 Aug 30 2010 at 11:13 AM Rating: Decent
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i dont want to be top tank or top dps, id like my fav job to be good at something. i have no experience with god tanking and i dont have great gear. i want to have fun and be useful. given the dw giveaway to other jobs, the best things about nin are available when subbed. more dw wield means i might swing faster but thats f all use if you miss. 2h vs dw means normal crappy players like me dont get invites as dd in a party and i cant remember i was asked as tank, first voke yes but that could be taken by war/nin. what does nin bring to the party? i have no doubt the next dw trait could be 5% or even 2.5%. if higher than that it makes prior tier a slap in the face for progression.
i want to play nin in aprty where im useful, having fun and with friends. leeching or slowing a party in my limited spare time aint my thing
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