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New JT idea: Auto-Haste for NIN?Follow

#1 Jun 01 2010 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Thinking...maybe instead of another tier of DW on the road to 99, maybe NIN could get Auto-Haste instead? Flat 10% delay reduction in both melee and spellcasting/recast? It would definitely be a boon for Ninjas (and also a benefit to jobs like BLU via spell combos, as well as RDM--maybe give them the trait at a later level than NIN).

Do you guys think it would be a good idea? Game-breaking? Obsolete due to gear/magic haste caps?

#2 Jun 01 2010 at 3:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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if it were like hasso (doesn't count toward gear or spell haste), it would be pretty game breaking. if it were a true auto-haste (ie the spell "haste" that RDMs and WHMs use was automatically active on you at all times) and would cause RDM or WHM haste to have no effect (b/c it's already up), it would only influence soloing, and mage burden.

the former isn't that great an idea (it's just a raw damage increase thrown in for no reason). the latter... why not? it would help soloing (never hurts balance, just helps players who like to solo), it would help MP strapped HNM groups, and it would make NINs a bit more likely to be invited to merit parties (especially if the RDM was doing the inviting). it also makes a little bit of sense, since i've always assumed NIN are supposed to be fast.

however, don't underestimate another dual wield tier. it would be very good for you, and would make all your dual wield gear better. dual wield is like haste, in that adding 5% to 5% gives you less improvement than adding 5% to 40%. dual wield doesn't stack with haste in that way, but it's like it, and NINs already get a fair amount. more dual wield is hot stuff.

if that explanation isn't clear, your delay gets reduced like this:

find total haste, reduce delay by that much. take the new delay, and reduce it by total dual wield.

(it makes no difference if you do haste or dual wield first)

this is different than if you were to say, find total delay reduction by combining haste and dual wield and stacking them together (this would get NINs to 0 delay quite easily, incidentally). it's also different that if you did, like,

delay * .95 from turban, * .97 from fumas, * .97 from dusk, etc. that would give you less total delay reduction than delay *.89 from turban/fumas/dusk together. at low haste, this doesn't make toooooo big a difference, but at high haste it makes a huge difference. for example, going form 0% to 1% haste is 1% DoT, while going from 50% to 51% is 2% DoT; in other words, haste is *twice* as effective when added to 50% than to 0%.

dual wield works the same way, so another trait would be very good.

---

all that said, i still strongly disapprove of new JT/JA idea threads :D.

Edited, Jun 1st 2010 5:39pm by milich
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#3 Jun 01 2010 at 8:36 PM Rating: Decent
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lol, thanks for the insight. I see where you're coming from. If you don't mind my asking, why do you hate JA/JT speculation topics?
#4 Jun 02 2010 at 2:43 AM Rating: Good
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I'd rather a haste effect added to a stance than replacing further DW with it. Otherwise, do want. I solo so much these days that whenever I do get haste I am surprised all over again by how awesome it is D:

Edited, Jun 2nd 2010 5:25am by KisharBlack
#5Requim, Posted: Jun 02 2010 at 11:43 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Most of the people offering job trait and ability advice are relatively new to the game or don't commit to the full impact of their abilities' effects onto the game. It's more like hey this is neat now someone else do the work for my idea.
#6 Jun 02 2010 at 2:07 PM Rating: Good
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Hell, I'd settle for an A+ in katana skill and a 1 handed accuracy formula akin to what the 2 handers got...



















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#7 Jun 02 2010 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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I totally would like auto-haste trait, as long as it doesn't count for gear haste. I get 25% of that already, so moar dual wield, Ability or Magic haste please! (Shinobi earring is darn sexy. Soloing FoV pages with 230 HP is borderline crazy, but it's SO worth it.)

Oh, and why not give us a haste ninjutsu while we're at it? :)

As far as speculation go, I was considering a completely crazy concept recently on my work to and back from work:
Imagine if ninjas had some kind of double-attack based on the number of shadows they have up? Let's say one extra attack per shadow (I know, I know, ridiculously OP!) Pretty much a melee version of Sange...

The concept is intriguing, however:
-The more shadows they have (After :NI, 4), the more damage and hate they'd do.
-Ninjas that go as damage would probably want to go use innin and try to minimize hate in order to maximize damage (oh dear, a gameplay where riding the hate line means improved damage?)
-Tanking with evasion/accuracy (SH, Ohat, etc.) gear might help the shadows longevity, therefore damage and hate.

On another note, I still want Kagetora's clones ability ._.;

Now, enough dreaming. I'll settle for a new dual wield tier, utsusemi: San and jubaku: Ni ._.;
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#8 Jun 02 2010 at 5:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Requim wrote:
@Milich
Under the same logic of increasing returns on haste, you would be hasting the ninja regardless because even with a 10% magic haste trait, ninjas wouldn't be capping out (granted more likely to be job/ability based instead of magic/gear).


i was saying that if auto-haste was like in, what was it, ffvi(?), the ability would just cast haste on you, as if a RDM or WHM had casted it. just as you don't get 30% haste if RDM and WHM both cast haste on you, you wouldn't get 30% if this JT was active and a WHM casted on you. to look at it another way, assuming it was straight "haste" (the spell) is a way for it not to be broken and "hey, here's a big DD upgrade out of nowhere with no drawbacks and no implications beyond improving NIN" (hasso was "a big DD upgrade out of nowhere", but it also was a *2h weapon upgrade* [more important/potent than the STR/DEX one] that provided all 2h jobs with a new subjob).

but, this post stops short b/c i am both busy and kind of drunk. as for why i don't like JA/JT ideas, yeah, i think it's generally more fruitful to discuss/learn about game mechanics/balance than it is to try to improve it. also, i don't see the point of the conversation.
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#9 Jun 03 2010 at 10:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, hasso seemed like an overdue option of a two handers version of dual wield. It gave you off hand stats and increased TP speed...except they then introduced grips and had no TP penalty for hasso's increased attack speed.

Potentially you could just tweak dual wield again to help make it more appealing. Giving it a dex and attack bonus or potentially decreasing the TP penalty, just some minimal scaling effect that would help close the gap between it and hasso.

The two hander update was an overly extreme response to multi-attacking weapon single handers. Now 2 handers are just basically better in all respects, more str=>atk (+hasso), more dex=>acc (+hasso), and 10% haste from hasso...which has no TP penalty for weapons with easy 5~6 hit builds (with significantly higher base damage).

It would be nice for single handers to get some boost for their performance to be more on par with two handers (which would include DW as well as H2H!)
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#10 Jun 03 2010 at 10:08 AM Rating: Decent
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If auto-haste literally just gave you the haste spell...that would not be helpful outside of solo. Even now "soloing" many harder mobs is just one person DBing so you could already have been hasting yourself. Perma-haste is definitely better than needing haste, however, were they to go through that effort I would much prefer it to be separate from haste so that they could stack.
#11 Jun 03 2010 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
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Requim wrote:
as well as H2H!

Don't know why you think H2H needs help. It doesn't right now, and it all things continue as they have been so far (same skills/level, same effect of skill for damage, and maybe a new martial arts trait to top it off), then you'd be stupid not to be a monk or puppetmaster by level 99.

Actually, if any speculations are to be had about the future updates, it should be about figuring how the **** will other jobs keep up with monk. You'd need DMG:50 katanas at least. If that's the case, how high are two-handers DMG going to reach? DMG:120 lances? Also, how awesome (or not) would the DMG:40 Soboro be by then? How good (or bad) will Perdu Blade be once those katanas come out?

Ninjas getting new tiers of dual wield is a pretty "nice" way to improve their damage, while keeping their damage mainly to the DoT aspect. Auto-haste would be **** in solo-situations, and would help recasts, especially with bad healers. Danger here: Would that mean ninjas are now immune to {Slow}? Hmmm. Also, other Auto-traits are usually weaker version of the spell of the same name, and stack with it (auto-regen, auto-refresh). So maybe a permanent 5% "magic" haste.

/tangent random brainstorming/thought process
I'm curious if people would rather have a new trait that gives 5% haste or another 5% dual wield reduction.

My instinct/gut feeling is the haste would be slightly worse... Let's see:
- Going from base 30 to 35% DW compared to having 35% or 40% magic haste from march * 2 + haste. (35% DW + 35% haste vs 30% DW + 40% haste) I think haste wins on that one.
- I suppose it depends on how much DW gear you wear. (+15% ? +5% ? +10%)
- You'd reached capped magic haste more easily, too which means you don't benefit from soul-voiced march*2 as much as the rest of the party.
- The haste would give a boost on all recasts outside of parties, too, which is good.
- TP gain would be affected by DW. I'm not sure if it ends up a good or bad thing. How good is TP gain if you have 50% DW, in theory?

Hmm, I guess my gut feeling is wrong? As everything else, it depends on the gear/buffs you get.
/tangent off

Requim wrote:
that would help close the gap between [dual-wield] and hasso

By level 90, all /NIN dual-wielders should get a new dual wield tier. Right there you have something that dual-wield "catch up" to /SAM's hasso. (Hopefully, NIN mains will also get one by 90. Logic dictates 85 is the next tier. We'll see)

However, Square did mention they would like sekkanoki to be lowered in level so it's no longer SAM main only. How much impact does that change have on /SAM's use, I don't know yet. I know that it will really make solo-SC much more common than a DNC-SAM-BLU niche.


TLDR;
-People should stop trying to dethrone SAM and /SAM. (/SAM will remain a popular choice even if it's not top damage anymore because third eye is instant-cast and free, shiheis aren't. People are cheap. Also, most people hate playing ninjas just to sub it)
-If square doesn't provide major updates, MNK and PUP are the future new king of FFXI.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2010 1:56pm by Lianda
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#12 Jun 03 2010 at 12:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Lianda wrote:
if all things continue as they have been so far (same skills/level, same effect of skill for damage, and maybe a new martial arts trait to top it off), then you'd be stupid not to be a monk or puppetmaster by level 99.

-If square doesn't provide major updates, MNK and PUP are the future new is the king of FFXI.


FTFY :D

But srsly, the progression of 1H/2H/H2H weapons as we go beyond lvl 75 is starting to concern me. I mean, you'd assume SE has thought about this, but past experience is making me feel very worried. I mean, I have a H2H job, so I'm not that worried... but I'd like my NIN to be a valid option to use on things too lol.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2010 2:26pm by KisharBlack
#13 Jun 03 2010 at 1:57 PM Rating: Decent
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True, if SE lazily programmed the game to just give everyone several more points of damage and let H2H skill increments continue like they would, H2H would be double dipping in the damage pool.

However, if SE either changes the H2H formula or just gives all weapons a large increase in damage, then MNK and PUP would be SoL like the other one handers.

SAM and /SAM are just too perfect for how people maxmize damage in this game since 6-hits (further reduced by OAT weps) allow people to spew WSs while the one handers constantly faced reduced TP with their delay decreases. Not to mention the two-handers have higher fstr caps, higher WS base damage, permanently better accuracy/attack (from str/dex and A+ skills[yes I know MNK has]), and currently are the only ones who can max haste cap without Soul Voice. Basically on all fronts two-handers win for damage because this game isn't balanced, which is just lame.

Also, in no way, not even close, does 5% more DW compare to 10% haste (with no TP penalty) that basically stacks with all other sources. Even if it's a 1% DW vs 1% haste, haste wins from lack of TP penalty and at least magical/gear forms affect recasts.

It isn't about trying to dethrone SAM and /SAM, it's the fact that they are by far superior DD subs that have essentially invalidated the need to get any non-two-hander as a DD. Even if NIN's get utsusemi san, it won't bring the job back. I mean people are already getting rid of PLDs as tanks for many events because you're just better off with DDs tanking. Maybe the new end game mobs will be so hard that tanks will make a comeback, however, I would not be surprised in 2 months afterward people are back to just having their DDs tank things and killing more efficiently.

Also I bet you that SE tries to incorporate some stupid, complex SC-MB bonus that people try for a day before they realize that it's a waste of effort in almost any situation.
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#14 Jun 03 2010 at 3:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Requim wrote:
Also, in no way, not even close, does 5% more DW compare to 10% haste (with no TP penalty) that basically stacks with all other sources. Even if it's a 1% DW vs 1% haste, haste wins from lack of TP penalty and at least magical/gear forms affect recasts.

Well, don't forget that DW jumps from 15% to 25% reduction at the 3rd tier.

So it's 10% DW reduction vs 10% job ability haste.

So it boils down to 15% haste gear + 10% Job Haste (stacks) vs 15% haste gear + 30% DW reduction (stacks differently)

100 * 0.75 = 75
100 * 0.7 * 0.85 = 59.5

I'm not an authority on DW and TP gain, but I believe that the faster you go, the higher your TP gain becomes, because of rounding AND the TP formula isn't directly proportional to delay.

(Of course, Hasso's +STR, +Accuracy and 2-hander's bonus ATK and ACC also help tide things over to 2-handers and /SAM's favour)

Requim wrote:
Also I bet you that SE tries to incorporate some stupid, complex SC-MB bonus that people try for a day before they realize that it's a waste of effort in almost any situation.

You're probably right, but some people (like me) who SC whenever they get the chance and MB my ninjutsu could actually get something out of such an upgrade. Doesn't mean it will become popular with the community.

Requim wrote:
I mean people are already getting rid of PLDs as tanks for many events because you're just better off with DDs tanking

That's not something new. I was a DPS tank in WoW on my paladin, running around 2500 dps while tanking instead of the 900-1000 most tanks had. Bringing a "tank" that deals the same damage as a DPS or a DPS that tanks about as well as a tank is nothing new, and gets **** dead faster. I'm okay with NIN getting their spot as damage dealers in FFXI if that's all we become eventually, you know. Most ninjas would be fine with giving some other jobs the tanking mantle.

Requim wrote:
1% DW vs 1% haste, haste wins

For non-NINs, you're probably right. For NIN main, it might not be that clear cut, especially if more DW tiers or gear come out. I believe that 1% DW or 1% haste wins if you add to whichever you have the most of.

Magic recast is also sorta easy to cap, so it stops having an impact at that moment.
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#15 Jun 04 2010 at 6:13 AM Rating: Decent
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DW and Haste work the same way for delay reduction. Haste also increases TP gain in porportion to its reduction while DW increase's it more gradually. The TP gain formula is biased for weapons below 240 delay and above 450 delay. Also DWIII is 10% not 5%, and its not that 10% vs Hasso's 10%, its the entire DW vs Hasso.

10 DW I 10%
25 DW II 15%
45 DW III 25%
65 DW IV 30%
85(?) DW V 35 or 40%, the way DW works the next tier should be 10% not 5%.
Suppa +5%

Typically Hauby is better then chainmail unless your fighting really weak stuff.

100/65 = 1.538
100/55 = 1.818
1.818/1.538 = 1.182, or a 18.2% increase in DPS if DW V is 10%.

But a Acc+10 DW+3 Mirke is the best for NIN (amongst a few other jobs). Soo...
38% DW @ 75 = 1.6129
48% DW @ 85 = 1.9230
Ends up being a 19.22% increase in DPS. The only thing NIN is honestly missing is a good multihit weapon or two, which Magian seems to be taking care of. DW and haste are additive to each other, you typically don't choose between them but rather use both at the same time.



For the /NIN crowd its pretty insane to get DWIII naturally.
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#16 Jun 05 2010 at 3:49 AM Rating: Good
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Thf's with DW III are going to be pretty **** nasty. The amount of haste thf can stack + triple attack, low delay daggers... its gonna be unreal.
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