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#1 May 09 2009 at 7:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Hey,

I just wanted to have some fun with NIN and wondered what would be the best sub for Shuriken throwing.

NIN/RNG or NIN/WAR w/ Berserk?

Also, meat or sushi in merits?

Thanks.

(RNG is at 26, having a hard time leveling in qufim...)
#2 May 09 2009 at 7:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Even i you are using shuriken (Which I highly doubt you will be) you will probably be subbing war.
#3 May 09 2009 at 7:54 PM Rating: Good
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Have fun throwing Manjis at 40k/stack if anyone on your server even bothers to craft those.
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#4 May 10 2009 at 2:21 AM Rating: Default
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Would a high int+ setup with ninjustsu do any good dmg at all or katanas better?
#5 May 10 2009 at 3:26 AM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
Have fun throwing Manjis at 40k/stack if anyone on your server even bothers to craft those.


this is pretty much the sole reason i dont use shurikan. cost! and the fact that the stronger shurikans only stack in 12s (really, why?) but they just cost so **** much.

if se made them:-
A: cheaper,
B: pouchable (like arrows and stuff)
C: stackable to 99 not 12. and
D: added throwing WS.

then i'd probably use throwing alot more. i did once pick up a stack of koga shurikan for 50k those things stack to 99 but they're rare as **** to obtain. but the damage i was doing with them was impressive. but its just to dam expensive/impracticle to make it worthwhile most of the time.
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#6 May 10 2009 at 4:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
if se made them:-
A: cheaper,
B: pouchable (like arrows and stuff)
C: stackable to 99 not 12. and
D: added throwing WS.

then i'd probably use throwing alot more. i did once pick up a stack of koga shurikan for 50k those things stack to 99 but they're rare as **** to obtain. but the damage i was doing with them was impressive. but its just to dam expensive/impracticle to make it worthwhile most of the time.


++


they are a good damage output but you also need a specific gear set-up.
the fact is that you can also DD with katanas or ninjutsu. There are very few cases where you would prefer throwing to ninjutsu if you can't melee. ninjutsu is also a lot cheaper ^^ also usefull to have for events like einherjar where you don't know if katana will be viable. but you also need specific merits & gears for it to work well, (and maybe come /rdm) and you can't have all the gears for melee, ninjutsu AND throwing in your inventory lol (just think about the elemental staffs for ninjutsu and the stacks of tools)
#7 May 10 2009 at 5:51 AM Rating: Good
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Katana has the highest potential provided there are no special circumstances.

The thing with ranged attacks is that they don't get boosted by Haste/DW, whereas Katana's DPS goes up by a lot after factoring that in.

Ninjitsu would take a lot more than just an INT setup to make work, and I don't think you're really match a good melee setup then either.

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#8 May 10 2009 at 6:03 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Katana has the highest potential provided there are no special circumstances.

The thing with ranged attacks is that they don't get boosted by Haste/DW, whereas Katana's DPS goes up by a lot after factoring that in.


I don't know if we can say that with any certainty. Has anyone really ever gone to all the effort and expense of pushing a shuriken build to the limit? The best shurikens have a DPS of something like 27, and I doubt that even under ideal circumstances would you be able to more than double your katana damage. Sure, you can't wear haste for ranged attacks, but that doesn't mean you can't buff yourself in other ways.
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#9 May 10 2009 at 10:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Yesterday I went to nyzul with NIN... The WHM told me that NIN is useless, that I should come as another job (WAR75/DRG75/BRD75/PLD75).

It ****** me off. What the **** is NIN good at then?
#10 May 10 2009 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
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It ****** me off. What the **** is NIN good at then?

If you mean Nyzul merit camp, then NIN is great and that guy was just foolish. But, of course, since you have DRG -- which slaughters birds -- you certainly should have been bringing that, all things being equal.

If you mean Nyzul assault, then NIN is fine but not ideal because of the lack of heavy spike damage. Given your other jobs, I would think DRG or BRD would be better for Nyzul assault, if they match the needs of your group. A DRG's ability to run up to a EM mob, jump a couple of times, WS, kill it, and move on in five seconds is a nice feature.
#11 May 10 2009 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
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I have a smithing fren and I plan to lvl ninja from 30-37 specifically using the second tier of shurikens (which do stack to 99). I want to post the results if it turns out as cool as I think it will be. It will be awhile though, cause I'm getting BLU to 40 first, and then capping throwing on it to have a pre-capped skill

Edited, May 10th 2009 2:50pm by Tarub
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#12 May 11 2009 at 7:49 PM Rating: Good
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Eladriek wrote:
Yesterday I went to nyzul with NIN... The WHM told me that NIN is useless, that I should come as another job (WAR75/DRG75/BRD75/PLD75).

It ****** me off. What the **** is NIN good at then?


Nyzul NIN is "useless" compared to other DDs like SAM, MNK and DRG. NIN's output is decent but still close second after we lost the 5TP floor. :/
(Only Usukane feet, Ecp. Ring, Brutal Earring and Rajas can restore it)

NIN also do not have an offensive 2Hr like above the 3 jobs.

I speculate that with Sange + Ni giving 5 hits (4 shadows, 1 player), it can even the odds against other DDs in burst damage. I mean, seriously, Kogas are 88DMG, same damage output as Perdu Sickle (Scythe)!! How big are those things!?!

Problem is getting throwing to cap and my personal willingness to spend that kind of gil. (._.')
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#13 May 12 2009 at 4:15 AM Rating: Good
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NIN is my favourite Nyzul Isle job (see sig for others).

Has shadows, has provoke, has snk/invis, has magic potential (Ninjutsu), three different types of pulling (ninjutsu/ranged/provoke), tanking ability, kiting ability, speed (at night/dusk-till-dawn), fast attacks (in my static with Haste Samba and Haste on constantly, my NIN was the most deadly thing on kill-all, heavy DD's DoT just falls to the wayside compared to a super-speed-injected NIN).

Versatile, quick, and tough to kill. Sounds ideal to me for Nyzul Isle. Ninja Boots help a lot in tight situations.

Only thing which sucked was Chariots and Soulflayers. Grrrr.
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#14 May 12 2009 at 6:47 AM Rating: Decent
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NIN is great for *climbing* Nyzul Isle, but kind of sucks for boss floors (lol2hr).

Shuriken spamming is good for levels 28-40 (Jujis) if you like tossing gil around. Spam the wheel when you hit 40 though.
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#15 May 12 2009 at 7:26 AM Rating: Good
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I dunno, I've parsed NIN to be rather effective in Nyzul, even on some bosses (Adamantoise particularly, as it's hard to get huge WS on him).

The main thing with NIN is that it -cannot- be half-assed. You need to be well geared, play aggressively, and play well. Most other jobs can't be played balls to the wall and not become MP sinks, NIN can, but conversely it needs to be in order to be competitive.
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#16 May 12 2009 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Eladriek wrote:
Yesterday I went to nyzul with NIN... The WHM told me that NIN is useless, that I should come as another job (WAR75/DRG75/BRD75/PLD75).

It ****** me off. What the **** is NIN good at then?


Tell the WHM to suckless. (or maybe its the NINs I don't know).

My static I come NIN most weeks, I can outparse the pick-up cookie cutter jobs on the bosses about 50% of the time and am generally close no matter. NIN is great for nyzul if played right a few posts above me someone elaborated more.

Regarding the OP: I used Shurikens to level my nin and keep throwing capped. I tried /RNG a few times, /WAR is definitely better, the attack boost from berserk helps shuriken dmg a lot. Meanwhile the acc. bonus from /RNG is meh. Barrage is useless for throwing. I'd probably recommend sushi if you're /war, since its A skill your acc. won't be horrid, but missing those expensive shurikens is painful.

Because the ranged delay formula is different. The dps on shurikens is nerfed somewhat, but you can still hit like a 2 hander at a smaller delay if you spam them.
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#17 May 12 2009 at 11:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Eladriek wrote:
Yesterday I went to nyzul with NIN... The WHM told me that NIN is useless, that I should come as another job (WAR75/DRG75/BRD75/PLD75).

It ****** me off. What the **** is NIN good at then?


I love taking my NIN to events like Limbus and Nyzul. I destroy most of the DDs that I come up against. People don't realize that NIN can pump-out a shit-ton of damage when you factor in DW, Haste, spells and songs.

Lothiriel wrote:
NIN is great for *climbing* Nyzul Isle, but kind of sucks for boss floors (lol2hr).


With a BRD I can hit 1K Jins on most bosses if we kill all the ramparts. Hydra always does that Physical Buff right before I WS -.-

I kind of get tired of the stigma of NIN not being able to compete in damage. People tend to forget that NIN has an unreal attack speed and we can sub WAR without losing any defensive abilities. Match that with 4/4 Crit Merits and a Senju and the DoT is just silly.

I usually have my BRD friend with me when I do everything, so maybe I am jaded, but I rarely find people who can slaughter my damage against Merit/Nyzul/Limbus mobs.

Anyway, to the OP: If you want to go ranged attacks on your NIN, maybe think about playing with guns? Shurikens are too expensive and the DoT won't ever match a good DW/Haste build that we know of (milch did the math one time and showed DW to be far ahead, if I remember correctly). If we are talking HNMs, I find it hard to beleive a shell would find a spot for you unless we can find testing to show your damage would be worth the spot. Some NMs you can melee, for the rest just sub /DRK and tank.

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#18 May 12 2009 at 11:42 AM Rating: Good
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Throwing works fine until 39, if you have the gil to support it.

From 40 ~ 50s, its ouclassed by ninjutsu

Over 50, there is just no ammo. Throwing at that level is like a ranger only shooting heavy shells.



Seriously, its more of a issue of SE being stupid than anyone trying.
#19 May 12 2009 at 12:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Filian wrote:
Quote:
Katana has the highest potential provided there are no special circumstances.

The thing with ranged attacks is that they don't get boosted by Haste/DW, whereas Katana's DPS goes up by a lot after factoring that in.


I don't know if we can say that with any certainty. Has anyone really ever gone to all the effort and expense of pushing a shuriken build to the limit? The best shurikens have a DPS of something like 27, and I doubt that even under ideal circumstances would you be able to more than double your katana damage. Sure, you can't wear haste for ranged attacks, but that doesn't mean you can't buff yourself in other ways.


people have done the math, and RA NIN can't even come close to haste/DW NIN. it's a pipedream like MNK capping guard and becoming unkillable.
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#20 May 12 2009 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
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milich wrote:
Filian wrote:
Quote:
Katana has the highest potential provided there are no special circumstances.

The thing with ranged attacks is that they don't get boosted by Haste/DW, whereas Katana's DPS goes up by a lot after factoring that in.


I don't know if we can say that with any certainty. Has anyone really ever gone to all the effort and expense of pushing a shuriken build to the limit? The best shurikens have a DPS of something like 27, and I doubt that even under ideal circumstances would you be able to more than double your katana damage. Sure, you can't wear haste for ranged attacks, but that doesn't mean you can't buff yourself in other ways.


people have done the math, and RA NIN can't even come close to haste/DW NIN. it's a pipedream like MNK capping guard and becoming unkillable.
In before anyone mentions Genome.
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#21 May 12 2009 at 7:17 PM Rating: Good
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this isn't the monk forums, should be safe from genofans.


sort of back on topic, i realized yesterday that my mog satchel is now more useful to me than my 75 nin.
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#22 May 12 2009 at 8:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Back to the Nyzul comment:

Nin is useless in Nyzul you say you can "1k Jins" But thats a lucky WS and its not consistant, The reason SAM is so good at Nyzul is because of Meditate, Sam will always have TP and on Floors where you arnt killing we sit and store to 300, Sekkonoki and that "Specified Enemy" Just got solo'ed by the Samurai while everyone else is still running.

Oh and that Hydra we got for the boss, My nin can do a 1k jin what twice ? three times maybe? My Sam just took 70% of its HP with my 14 Weaponskills.

My Ninja is probably my new favorite job because its just a machine at what it does but Nyzul Isle isnt one of those things.
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#23 May 12 2009 at 9:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Deboro wrote:
Back to the Nyzul comment:

Nin is useless in Nyzul you say you can "1k Jins" But thats a lucky WS and its not consistant, The reason SAM is so good at Nyzul is because of Meditate, Sam will always have TP and on Floors where you arnt killing we sit and store to 300, Sekkonoki and that "Specified Enemy" Just got solo'ed by the Samurai while everyone else is still running.

Oh and that Hydra we got for the boss, My nin can do a 1k jin what twice ? three times maybe? My Sam just took 70% of its HP with my 14 Weaponskills.

My Ninja is probably my new favorite job because its just a machine at what it does but Nyzul Isle isnt one of those things.

What's with NIN forums and attracting trolls? D:
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#24 May 13 2009 at 8:06 AM Rating: Decent
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What's with NIN forums and attracting trolls? D:


How is he being a troll? lol SAM beats NIN on boss floors, end of freakin' story. That doesn't mean NIN sucks at Nyzul, our 2 hour is just pathetic.

I think for climbing they are about even. SAM will win in damage output, basically just because of what the previous poster said, they have a ton of chances to spam meditate and gain TP that other jobs don't have (lamp floors, leader floors, etc.). NIN has the advantage of slightly better survivability (yes, I said slightly, a SAM/NIN with an evasion build is nearly as good as NIN/WAR at keeping themselves alive), and, the BIG ONE: AF Feet. Ninja Kyahan are the sole reason I climb Nyzul on NIN and not SAM. They are epic for all that pointless running around, especially when you are puller/scouter (which I usually am).

My Nyzul static just cleared 26-50 in one night last night (5 tags, we all have Captain). I was NIN the whole way, but switched to SAM on 40 and proceeded to unleash 3 consecutive light skillchains (OK two and half, Faf was dead before I could finish the 3rd one).

If you're farming bosses, however, and can't use 2 hours each run (or your 2 hour is down), you're probably better off on NIN.
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#25 May 13 2009 at 8:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Lothiriel wrote:
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What's with NIN forums and attracting trolls? D:


How is he being a troll? lol SAM beats NIN on boss floors, end of freakin' story. That doesn't mean NIN sucks at Nyzul, our 2 hour is just pathetic.

I think for climbing they are about even. SAM will win in damage output, basically just because of what the previous poster said, they have a ton of chances to spam meditate and gain TP that other jobs don't have (lamp floors, leader floors, etc.). NIN has the advantage of slightly better survivability (yes, I said slightly, a SAM/NIN with an evasion build is nearly as good as NIN/WAR at keeping themselves alive), and, the BIG ONE: AF Feet. Ninja Kyahan are the sole reason I climb Nyzul on NIN and not SAM. They are epic for all that pointless running around, especially when you are puller/scouter (which I usually am).

My Nyzul static just cleared 26-50 in one night last night (5 tags, we all have Captain). I was NIN the whole way, but switched to SAM on 40 and proceeded to unleash 3 consecutive light skillchains (OK two and half, Faf was dead before I could finish the 3rd one).

If you're farming bosses, however, and can't use 2 hours each run (or your 2 hour is down), you're probably better off on NIN.

He didn't specify boss
Quote:
Nin is useless in Nyzul you say you can "1k Jins" But thats a lucky WS and its not consistant, The reason SAM is so good at Nyzul is because of Meditate, Sam will always have TP and on Floors where you arnt killing we sit and store to 300, Sekkonoki and that "Specified Enemy" Just got solo'ed by the Samurai while everyone else is still running.

If we were to interpret that it would seem that Samurai is the god of damage and that nin cannot compare. It's a bit troll-y D:
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drk = 80 sam = 76
pld = 79 thf= 80
nin = 80 drg = 75
mnk = 76 war = 52

Retired for now ^ ***** you Abyssea. FFXIV woo eh..
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#26 May 13 2009 at 9:43 AM Rating: Good
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NIN is actually pretty good on most bosses, and probably the best DD you can get on Khimera where he constantly wipes your TP. The climbing speed difference with a DD NIN is pretty huge too, you end up with a large amount of left-over time for boss simply because of how brutally effective NIN is on DC-T mobs.

Also, if you're worried about WS damage on resistant bosses you could always grab a Daedalus wing/hp build and open with Spirits Within and tank for a bit.

Quote:
Yesterday I went to nyzul with NIN... The WHM told me that NIN is useless, that I should come as another job (WAR75/DRG75/BRD75/PLD75).

It could be conjectured (especially before the recent buffs) that WHM was useless in nyzul as well. Honestly, I think the only job that has substantial difficulty there is BLM, and that's because they aren't as apt at TP burn style attack/pull speed and the bosses tend to resist magic heavily.
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