Shurkien NINFollow

Even i you are using shuriken (Which I highly doubt you will be) you will probably be subbing war.

Would a high int+ setup with ninjustsu do any good dmg at all or katanas better?

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they are a good damage output but you also need a specific gear set-up.
the fact is that you can also DD with katanas or ninjutsu. There are very few cases where you would prefer throwing to ninjutsu if you can't melee. ninjutsu is also a lot cheaper ^^ also usefull to have for events like einherjar where you don't know if katana will be viable. but you also need specific merits & gears for it to work well, (and maybe come /rdm) and you can't have all the gears for melee, ninjutsu AND throwing in your inventory lol (just think about the elemental staffs for ninjutsu and the stacks of tools)

I don't know if we can say that with any certainty. Has anyone really ever gone to all the effort and expense of pushing a shuriken build to the limit? The best shurikens have a DPS of something like 27, and I doubt that even under ideal circumstances would you be able to more than double your katana damage. Sure, you can't wear haste for ranged attacks, but that doesn't mean you can't buff yourself in other ways.

If you mean Nyzul merit camp, then NIN is great and that guy was just foolish. But, of course, since you have DRG -- which slaughters birds -- you certainly should have been bringing that, all things being equal.

If you mean Nyzul assault, then NIN is fine but not ideal because of the lack of heavy spike damage. Given your other jobs, I would think DRG or BRD would be better for Nyzul assault, if they match the needs of your group. A DRG's ability to run up to a EM mob, jump a couple of times, WS, kill it, and move on in five seconds is a nice feature.

Nyzul NIN is "useless" compared to other DDs like SAM, MNK and DRG. NIN's output is decent but still close second after we lost the 5TP floor. :/
(Only Usukane feet, Ecp. Ring, Brutal Earring and Rajas can restore it)

NIN also do not have an offensive 2Hr like above the 3 jobs.

I speculate that with Sange + Ni giving 5 hits (4 shadows, 1 player), it can even the odds against other DDs in burst damage. I mean, seriously, Kogas are 88DMG, same damage output as Perdu Sickle (Scythe)!! How big are those things!?!

Problem is getting throwing to cap and my personal willingness to spend that kind of gil. (._.')

NIN is great for *climbing* Nyzul Isle, but kind of sucks for boss floors (lol2hr).

Shuriken spamming is good for levels 28-40 (Jujis) if you like tossing gil around. Spam the wheel when you hit 40 though.

Tell the WHM to suckless. (or maybe its the NINs I don't know).

My static I come NIN most weeks, I can outparse the pick-up cookie cutter jobs on the bosses about 50% of the time and am generally close no matter. NIN is great for nyzul if played right a few posts above me someone elaborated more.

Regarding the OP: I used Shurikens to level my nin and keep throwing capped. I tried /RNG a few times, /WAR is definitely better, the attack boost from berserk helps shuriken dmg a lot. Meanwhile the acc. bonus from /RNG is meh. Barrage is useless for throwing. I'd probably recommend sushi if you're /war, since its A skill your acc. won't be horrid, but missing those expensive shurikens is painful.

Because the ranged delay formula is different. The dps on shurikens is nerfed somewhat, but you can still hit like a 2 hander at a smaller delay if you spam them.

Throwing works fine until 39, if you have the gil to support it.

From 40 ~ 50s, its ouclassed by ninjutsu

Over 50, there is just no ammo. Throwing at that level is like a ranger only shooting heavy shells.



Seriously, its more of a issue of SE being stupid than anyone trying.

In before anyone mentions Genome.

Back to the Nyzul comment:

Nin is useless in Nyzul you say you can "1k Jins" But thats a lucky WS and its not consistant, The reason SAM is so good at Nyzul is because of Meditate, Sam will always have TP and on Floors where you arnt killing we sit and store to 300, Sekkonoki and that "Specified Enemy" Just got solo'ed by the Samurai while everyone else is still running.

Oh and that Hydra we got for the boss, My nin can do a 1k jin what twice ? three times maybe? My Sam just took 70% of its HP with my 14 Weaponskills.

My Ninja is probably my new favorite job because its just a machine at what it does but Nyzul Isle isnt one of those things.

How is he being a troll? lol SAM beats NIN on boss floors, end of freakin' story. That doesn't mean NIN sucks at Nyzul, our 2 hour is just pathetic.

I think for climbing they are about even. SAM will win in damage output, basically just because of what the previous poster said, they have a ton of chances to spam meditate and gain TP that other jobs don't have (lamp floors, leader floors, etc.). NIN has the advantage of slightly better survivability (yes, I said slightly, a SAM/NIN with an evasion build is nearly as good as NIN/WAR at keeping themselves alive), and, the BIG ONE: AF Feet. Ninja Kyahan are the sole reason I climb Nyzul on NIN and not SAM. They are epic for all that pointless running around, especially when you are puller/scouter (which I usually am).

My Nyzul static just cleared 26-50 in one night last night (5 tags, we all have Captain). I was NIN the whole way, but switched to SAM on 40 and proceeded to unleash 3 consecutive light skillchains (OK two and half, Faf was dead before I could finish the 3rd one).

If you're farming bosses, however, and can't use 2 hours each run (or your 2 hour is down), you're probably better off on NIN.

NIN is actually pretty good on most bosses, and probably the best DD you can get on Khimera where he constantly wipes your TP. The climbing speed difference with a DD NIN is pretty huge too, you end up with a large amount of left-over time for boss simply because of how brutally effective NIN is on DC-T mobs.

Also, if you're worried about WS damage on resistant bosses you could always grab a Daedalus wing/hp build and open with Spirits Within and tank for a bit.


It could be conjectured (especially before the recent buffs) that WHM was useless in nyzul as well. Honestly, I think the only job that has substantial difficulty there is BLM, and that's because they aren't as apt at TP burn style attack/pull speed and the bosses tend to resist magic heavily.

Because NIN can't solo, amirite?





^ Speaking from experience I see.



Maybe if you are subbing WAR, if not you won't come close. Protip: I have both jobs at 75; NIN's DoT is way higher unless the MNK is subbing WAR. Loss of Double Attack and Berserk hurts, a lot.

Also, what abilities are you talking about? Sans Hundred Fists, Formless Strikes is situational at best in Nyzul, if you kill the ramparts and get items (like you're supposed to) bosses are such a joke that Penance is pointless. Other than that MNK can what, punch stuff?

I'm not here to debate which job has the bigger E-Peen, just wish people would stop shitting on a job they probably don't have at 75 and if they do, are wearing Dodge Earrings full time.

Oh, the SAMs and the MNKs spreading their gospels.

I don't think you can really speak in such absolute terms, can you? It's going to be situational.

Let's assume max (non relic/mythic) gear sets:

NIN
Senju/Perdu
Fire Bomblet
Hope Torque
Brutal/Suppa Earrings
Full Usukane
Rajas/Toreador's Rings
Speed/Velocious Belt
Forager's Mantle

vs.

MNK
Destroyers
Black Tathlum
Faith Torque
Brutal/Hollow Earrings
(same)
(same)
Black Belt
Forager's mantle

I just don't see unless a MNK subs WAR how they are going to keep up with the speed a NIN can produce. I've gone to Limbus events with Black Belts MNKs with very good gear; my NIN isn't anything special and i'll be damned if they even came close to my DoT while subbing NIN. They aren't even in the ball park with my attack speed. With one Haste and One March there is zero delay in my attacks.

I'm not a math guru, nor do I pretend to be. I am just taking observation and posing the question, wouldn't it be more situational than absolute? If you factor in food, mob types, sub jobs?

Pebbles :)

my Sig is out dated I have Nin 75 and a damn well geared one at that.

How can anyone who has both jobs think for 2 seconds there Ninja is better at Nyzul then there Sam? Like milch said Mnk has better DoT with such confident's I can say Sam has better overall benefit in Nyzul then Ninja.

And the whole pulling my lines out of context about the Sam Soloing the mob, Des your nin have 300 tp with Sekkenoki ready to make darkness? which usually does about 2k damage all together in less time then it takes to cast Utsu and Kuryami?
Of course Nin can solo something , But not anywhere near as fast as my Sam can.

Also the Khimira as a boss comment thats funny, First off I wait to use my 2hr / Dusty wing / Meditates tell after it uses an ability. Its very easy to time the fight starting with Sekk, Wait for a JA 2hr, wait for a JA Dusty , Wait for a JA Meditate, and I rarely get tp over 100% wiped.

Also I like how when people dont have much of a aurgument they just call you a troll or try to make fun of your post in non-Subject ways. Fire away!

just to be clear, the only thing i'm asserting with any force is that MNK will out MELEE DoT NIN (and everyone else, including most relic holders). MNK's melee DoT is usually 66%-70%+ of its total damage. if the same distribution is true for NIN (or any job), by deduction it follows that MNK would outdamage NIN, but i'm not entirely sure the same does hold true. i'm not saying (here, or at least not with the same 'if you don't know this, you are just ignorant' force) that MNK will outdamage everyone, i'm saying MNK will out-melee everyone.

just like a good SAM should be doing more WSs than anyone else. more WS damage? maybe. more overall damage? maybe. but just raw larger number of WS? definitely, unless they're doing something wrong.

Edited, May 16th 2009 2:27pm by milich

I think MNKness and the SAMness is pretty well known. I don't think it takes another MNK or SAM to come in to EVERY OTHER FORUM to argue about their damage.

Thing is, people who play and love their jobs will perform well enough to foresee the differences. The more importantly here is to play it well enough to put weights into the event.

Obviously you don't bring NIN to DD a God, same token to go to whoever brings a SAM to tank a Yovra. And same thing as to have a MNK fighting something that is melee unfriendly.

Just look at the dps of shurikens, they're unmatchable. If you can spam them, you'll be parsing on or near top even against heavy DDs.

The lvl 18 shurikens have a DPS of 9+! The 28 ones are 12+ (better than kikoku)! The lvl 48 are near 20! After Manji (48) it's unrealistic to be able to spam them, but Fuma and Koga are the bestest damage for delay you could get, plus I'm pretty sure they're piercing, so against birds you'll be getting ridiculous damage per shuriken.

Nothing in game can compare to shurikens dps flat out. However, at the same time, there is like never ever enough of them. The problem is just it becomes prohibitively expensive to spam shurikens.

Some fun comparisons of 75 TP damage
Koga shuriken is 88/192
Senj 38/227
Ebow/Kab 71+38/490/90 (109/580)
Perdu GA 96/504
Perdu Scythe 93/501
Hagun 75/450
Thal 94/492

So Koga has 1/3-1/2 the delay of the other two hand weapons with near the same base damage (+ piercing bonus!) Of course good luck getting any koga shurikens. Juji (28) and Manji (48) on the other hand still have incredible dps and are realistically craftable, though still pretty pricey for how many you'll be throwing.

It's not that shurkens suck (far from it), it's just you waste a hell of a lot of gil for that damage. Mixing shurikens in with melee hits can work out well, if you can craft them then a hybrid role would cost you about as much as ranger.

It is only feasible if you've leveled smithing or have a friend who has since shurikens are rarely on the AH. It costs some gil, not much extra if you're not spamming, but with the costs of tools most people don't bother, but in the lower levels it is definitely doable if you can get your hands on shurikens, juji shurikens, or manji shurikens (all of which are comparable to rng's ammo costs).

63/192 piercing with fstr2 blows away any other option for lesser colibri, which the best weapons in those ranges are like 25/190 or 31/222. At 55 using a bubaso/kunai vs a manji on lesser colibri with ~55 str ~300 attack you'll be swinging for 10-27 with an attack round 250~300ish and throwing for 83 at 192 delay. Getting specific gear for racc/ratk for a throw macro and you can easily out damage katanas. On merit mobs with 400~ attack with a 38 katana you'll hit for 21~41ish compared to a manji hitting for 85, so it can still be decent damage, however, once you get to merits you'll have more DW and haste, so shurikens low delay is basically negated by a full attack round doing roughly the same damage without consuming ammo.

It's not that it isn't good, it's just only feasible mid game, which no one really cares about anyways.

No no your doing it wrong. You must use the super secret boomerang NIN <.< (old joke)

Anyhow, this is one of those ~duh~ things that SE screwed up. Gave NIN awesome throwing skill, but the ammo is incredibly expensive for what you get out of it.

Personally, I wish SE would add "throwing WS" to NIN. Then you could use Katana's to build TP, and then use a throwing WS with a 88DMG weapon. Then make ammo stack to 99 and possibly bundleable. But we can all dream.