Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Shurkien NINFollow

#1 May 09 2009 at 7:24 PM Rating: Decent
*
150 posts
Hey,

I just wanted to have some fun with NIN and wondered what would be the best sub for Shuriken throwing.

NIN/RNG or NIN/WAR w/ Berserk?

Also, meat or sushi in merits?

Thanks.

(RNG is at 26, having a hard time leveling in qufim...)
#2 May 09 2009 at 7:31 PM Rating: Decent
**
281 posts
Even i you are using shuriken (Which I highly doubt you will be) you will probably be subbing war.
#3 May 09 2009 at 7:54 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
Have fun throwing Manjis at 40k/stack if anyone on your server even bothers to craft those.
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#4 May 10 2009 at 2:21 AM Rating: Default
*
150 posts
Would a high int+ setup with ninjustsu do any good dmg at all or katanas better?
#5 May 10 2009 at 3:26 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
828 posts
bsphil wrote:
Have fun throwing Manjis at 40k/stack if anyone on your server even bothers to craft those.


this is pretty much the sole reason i dont use shurikan. cost! and the fact that the stronger shurikans only stack in 12s (really, why?) but they just cost so damn much.

if se made them:-
A: cheaper,
B: pouchable (like arrows and stuff)
C: stackable to 99 not 12. and
D: added throwing WS.

then i'd probably use throwing alot more. i did once pick up a stack of koga shurikan for 50k those things stack to 99 but they're rare as hell to obtain. but the damage i was doing with them was impressive. but its just to dam expensive/impracticle to make it worthwhile most of the time.
____________________________


#6 May 10 2009 at 4:45 AM Rating: Decent
6 posts
Quote:
if se made them:-
A: cheaper,
B: pouchable (like arrows and stuff)
C: stackable to 99 not 12. and
D: added throwing WS.

then i'd probably use throwing alot more. i did once pick up a stack of koga shurikan for 50k those things stack to 99 but they're rare as hell to obtain. but the damage i was doing with them was impressive. but its just to dam expensive/impracticle to make it worthwhile most of the time.


++


they are a good damage output but you also need a specific gear set-up.
the fact is that you can also DD with katanas or ninjutsu. There are very few cases where you would prefer throwing to ninjutsu if you can't melee. ninjutsu is also a lot cheaper ^^ also usefull to have for events like einherjar where you don't know if katana will be viable. but you also need specific merits & gears for it to work well, (and maybe come /rdm) and you can't have all the gears for melee, ninjutsu AND throwing in your inventory lol (just think about the elemental staffs for ninjutsu and the stacks of tools)
#7 May 10 2009 at 5:51 AM Rating: Good
****
7,129 posts
Katana has the highest potential provided there are no special circumstances.

The thing with ranged attacks is that they don't get boosted by Haste/DW, whereas Katana's DPS goes up by a lot after factoring that in.

Ninjitsu would take a lot more than just an INT setup to make work, and I don't think you're really match a good melee setup then either.

____________________________
•• Isiolia - Mithra - Pandemo... Asura FU SE ••
RDM BLM BST BRD NIN WAR PLD DNC BLU
#8 May 10 2009 at 6:03 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
2,578 posts
Quote:
Katana has the highest potential provided there are no special circumstances.

The thing with ranged attacks is that they don't get boosted by Haste/DW, whereas Katana's DPS goes up by a lot after factoring that in.


I don't know if we can say that with any certainty. Has anyone really ever gone to all the effort and expense of pushing a shuriken build to the limit? The best shurikens have a DPS of something like 27, and I doubt that even under ideal circumstances would you be able to more than double your katana damage. Sure, you can't wear haste for ranged attacks, but that doesn't mean you can't buff yourself in other ways.
____________________________
Filian - Elvaan - Ifrit
Samurai
White Mage
Corsair
Ninja
Dancer
#9 May 10 2009 at 10:56 AM Rating: Decent
*
150 posts
Yesterday I went to nyzul with NIN... The WHM told me that NIN is useless, that I should come as another job (WAR75/DRG75/BRD75/PLD75).

It pissed me off. What the hell is NIN good at then?
#10 May 10 2009 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
****
7,102 posts
Quote:
It pissed me off. What the hell is NIN good at then?

If you mean Nyzul merit camp, then NIN is great and that guy was just foolish. But, of course, since you have DRG -- which slaughters birds -- you certainly should have been bringing that, all things being equal.

If you mean Nyzul assault, then NIN is fine but not ideal because of the lack of heavy spike damage. Given your other jobs, I would think DRG or BRD would be better for Nyzul assault, if they match the needs of your group. A DRG's ability to run up to a EM mob, jump a couple of times, WS, kill it, and move on in five seconds is a nice feature.
#11 May 10 2009 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
Sage
****
5,550 posts
I have a smithing fren and I plan to lvl ninja from 30-37 specifically using the second tier of shurikens (which do stack to 99). I want to post the results if it turns out as cool as I think it will be. It will be awhile though, cause I'm getting BLU to 40 first, and then capping throwing on it to have a pre-capped skill

Edited, May 10th 2009 2:50pm by Tarub
____________________________
Mindel wrote:
Don't listen to bisexuals.
Aripyanfar wrote:
All bi's are slut-tarts.
#12 May 11 2009 at 7:49 PM Rating: Good
***
1,017 posts
Eladriek wrote:
Yesterday I went to nyzul with NIN... The WHM told me that NIN is useless, that I should come as another job (WAR75/DRG75/BRD75/PLD75).

It pissed me off. What the hell is NIN good at then?


Nyzul NIN is "useless" compared to other DDs like SAM, MNK and DRG. NIN's output is decent but still close second after we lost the 5TP floor. :/
(Only Usukane feet, Ecp. Ring, Brutal Earring and Rajas can restore it)

NIN also do not have an offensive 2Hr like above the 3 jobs.

I speculate that with Sange + Ni giving 5 hits (4 shadows, 1 player), it can even the odds against other DDs in burst damage. I mean, seriously, Kogas are 88DMG, same damage output as Perdu Sickle (Scythe)!! How big are those things!?!

Problem is getting throwing to cap and my personal willingness to spend that kind of gil. (._.')
____________________________
63SAM/75NIN/75THF/52DRK/37WAR/30RNG
Veteran Alch(96.2)+2(10Nov'05, 2Jan'06)|Smith(60)+1(25May'05)|Gold(60,25 Jul'09)|Cloth(60)|Wood(60)|Leather(21)|Cook(60) SADE@TW:1463dmg/SATA RF@IT:1167
Parrying 187.++ @10Jun'08
PvP for dummies.
My NIN TP
My NIN Tank
#13 May 12 2009 at 4:15 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,327 posts
NIN is my favourite Nyzul Isle job (see sig for others).

Has shadows, has provoke, has snk/invis, has magic potential (Ninjutsu), three different types of pulling (ninjutsu/ranged/provoke), tanking ability, kiting ability, speed (at night/dusk-till-dawn), fast attacks (in my static with Haste Samba and Haste on constantly, my NIN was the most deadly thing on kill-all, heavy DD's DoT just falls to the wayside compared to a super-speed-injected NIN).

Versatile, quick, and tough to kill. Sounds ideal to me for Nyzul Isle. Ninja Boots help a lot in tight situations.

Only thing which sucked was Chariots and Soulflayers. Grrrr.
____________________________
drk = 80 sam = 76
pld = 79 thf= 80
nin = 80 drg = 75
mnk = 76 war = 52

Retired for now ^ Screw you Abyssea. FFXIV woo eh..
milich wrote:
buttfucking
#14 May 12 2009 at 6:47 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
783 posts
NIN is great for *climbing* Nyzul Isle, but kind of sucks for boss floors (lol2hr).

Shuriken spamming is good for levels 28-40 (Jujis) if you like tossing gil around. Spam the wheel when you hit 40 though.
____________________________
Lothiriel on Midgardsormr
90RNG/90NIN/75DRK/90BLM/90SAM/75DNC
Bonecraft 103 (like anyone cares anymore)
#15 May 12 2009 at 7:26 AM Rating: Good
****
7,129 posts
I dunno, I've parsed NIN to be rather effective in Nyzul, even on some bosses (Adamantoise particularly, as it's hard to get huge WS on him).

The main thing with NIN is that it -cannot- be half-assed. You need to be well geared, play aggressively, and play well. Most other jobs can't be played balls to the wall and not become MP sinks, NIN can, but conversely it needs to be in order to be competitive.
____________________________
•• Isiolia - Mithra - Pandemo... Asura FU SE ••
RDM BLM BST BRD NIN WAR PLD DNC BLU
#16 May 12 2009 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,274 posts
Eladriek wrote:
Yesterday I went to nyzul with NIN... The WHM told me that NIN is useless, that I should come as another job (WAR75/DRG75/BRD75/PLD75).

It pissed me off. What the hell is NIN good at then?


Tell the WHM to suckless. (or maybe its the NINs I don't know).

My static I come NIN most weeks, I can outparse the pick-up cookie cutter jobs on the bosses about 50% of the time and am generally close no matter. NIN is great for nyzul if played right a few posts above me someone elaborated more.

Regarding the OP: I used Shurikens to level my nin and keep throwing capped. I tried /RNG a few times, /WAR is definitely better, the attack boost from berserk helps shuriken dmg a lot. Meanwhile the acc. bonus from /RNG is meh. Barrage is useless for throwing. I'd probably recommend sushi if you're /war, since its A skill your acc. won't be horrid, but missing those expensive shurikens is painful.

Because the ranged delay formula is different. The dps on shurikens is nerfed somewhat, but you can still hit like a 2 hander at a smaller delay if you spam them.
____________________________
FFIX Melee Damage Comparitor
Brimstone
#17 May 12 2009 at 11:02 AM Rating: Decent
**
663 posts
Eladriek wrote:
Yesterday I went to nyzul with NIN... The WHM told me that NIN is useless, that I should come as another job (WAR75/DRG75/BRD75/PLD75).

It pissed me off. What the hell is NIN good at then?


I love taking my NIN to events like Limbus and Nyzul. I destroy most of the DDs that I come up against. People don't realize that NIN can pump-out a shit-ton of damage when you factor in DW, Haste, spells and songs.

Lothiriel wrote:
NIN is great for *climbing* Nyzul Isle, but kind of sucks for boss floors (lol2hr).


With a BRD I can hit 1K Jins on most bosses if we kill all the ramparts. Hydra always does that Physical Buff right before I WS -.-

I kind of get tired of the stigma of NIN not being able to compete in damage. People tend to forget that NIN has an unreal attack speed and we can sub WAR without losing any defensive abilities. Match that with 4/4 Crit Merits and a Senju and the DoT is just silly.

I usually have my BRD friend with me when I do everything, so maybe I am jaded, but I rarely find people who can slaughter my damage against Merit/Nyzul/Limbus mobs.

Anyway, to the OP: If you want to go ranged attacks on your NIN, maybe think about playing with guns? Shurikens are too expensive and the DoT won't ever match a good DW/Haste build that we know of (milch did the math one time and showed DW to be far ahead, if I remember correctly). If we are talking HNMs, I find it hard to beleive a shell would find a spot for you unless we can find testing to show your damage would be worth the spot. Some NMs you can melee, for the rest just sub /DRK and tank.

____________________________
Server: Caisith
Character: Madvillain
#18 May 12 2009 at 11:42 AM Rating: Good
**
389 posts
Throwing works fine until 39, if you have the gil to support it.

From 40 ~ 50s, its ouclassed by ninjutsu

Over 50, there is just no ammo. Throwing at that level is like a ranger only shooting heavy shells.



Seriously, its more of a issue of SE being stupid than anyone trying.
#19 May 12 2009 at 12:17 PM Rating: Decent
Sage
Avatar
*****
10,813 posts
Filian wrote:
Quote:
Katana has the highest potential provided there are no special circumstances.

The thing with ranged attacks is that they don't get boosted by Haste/DW, whereas Katana's DPS goes up by a lot after factoring that in.


I don't know if we can say that with any certainty. Has anyone really ever gone to all the effort and expense of pushing a shuriken build to the limit? The best shurikens have a DPS of something like 27, and I doubt that even under ideal circumstances would you be able to more than double your katana damage. Sure, you can't wear haste for ranged attacks, but that doesn't mean you can't buff yourself in other ways.


people have done the math, and RA NIN can't even come close to haste/DW NIN. it's a pipedream like MNK capping guard and becoming unkillable.
____________________________
pahn
retired monk

i wish to be the red comet.
#20 May 12 2009 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
***
3,959 posts
milich wrote:
Filian wrote:
Quote:
Katana has the highest potential provided there are no special circumstances.

The thing with ranged attacks is that they don't get boosted by Haste/DW, whereas Katana's DPS goes up by a lot after factoring that in.


I don't know if we can say that with any certainty. Has anyone really ever gone to all the effort and expense of pushing a shuriken build to the limit? The best shurikens have a DPS of something like 27, and I doubt that even under ideal circumstances would you be able to more than double your katana damage. Sure, you can't wear haste for ranged attacks, but that doesn't mean you can't buff yourself in other ways.


people have done the math, and RA NIN can't even come close to haste/DW NIN. it's a pipedream like MNK capping guard and becoming unkillable.
In before anyone mentions Genome.
____________________________
LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH
#21 May 12 2009 at 7:17 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
2,398 posts
this isn't the monk forums, should be safe from genofans.


sort of back on topic, i realized yesterday that my mog satchel is now more useful to me than my 75 nin.
____________________________
monk
dragoon

#22 May 12 2009 at 8:49 PM Rating: Decent
*
198 posts
Back to the Nyzul comment:

Nin is useless in Nyzul you say you can "1k Jins" But thats a lucky WS and its not consistant, The reason SAM is so good at Nyzul is because of Meditate, Sam will always have TP and on Floors where you arnt killing we sit and store to 300, Sekkonoki and that "Specified Enemy" Just got solo'ed by the Samurai while everyone else is still running.

Oh and that Hydra we got for the boss, My nin can do a 1k jin what twice ? three times maybe? My Sam just took 70% of its HP with my 14 Weaponskills.

My Ninja is probably my new favorite job because its just a machine at what it does but Nyzul Isle isnt one of those things.
____________________________
75 SAM / 75 RNG / 75 Nin / 75 Cor / 75 War
I got my endgame LS! http://homingmissile.wowultra.com/
#23 May 12 2009 at 9:06 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
4,327 posts
Deboro wrote:
Back to the Nyzul comment:

Nin is useless in Nyzul you say you can "1k Jins" But thats a lucky WS and its not consistant, The reason SAM is so good at Nyzul is because of Meditate, Sam will always have TP and on Floors where you arnt killing we sit and store to 300, Sekkonoki and that "Specified Enemy" Just got solo'ed by the Samurai while everyone else is still running.

Oh and that Hydra we got for the boss, My nin can do a 1k jin what twice ? three times maybe? My Sam just took 70% of its HP with my 14 Weaponskills.

My Ninja is probably my new favorite job because its just a machine at what it does but Nyzul Isle isnt one of those things.

What's with NIN forums and attracting trolls? D:
____________________________
drk = 80 sam = 76
pld = 79 thf= 80
nin = 80 drg = 75
mnk = 76 war = 52

Retired for now ^ Screw you Abyssea. FFXIV woo eh..
milich wrote:
buttfucking
#24 May 13 2009 at 8:06 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
783 posts
Quote:
What's with NIN forums and attracting trolls? D:


How is he being a troll? lol SAM beats NIN on boss floors, end of freakin' story. That doesn't mean NIN sucks at Nyzul, our 2 hour is just pathetic.

I think for climbing they are about even. SAM will win in damage output, basically just because of what the previous poster said, they have a ton of chances to spam meditate and gain TP that other jobs don't have (lamp floors, leader floors, etc.). NIN has the advantage of slightly better survivability (yes, I said slightly, a SAM/NIN with an evasion build is nearly as good as NIN/WAR at keeping themselves alive), and, the BIG ONE: AF Feet. Ninja Kyahan are the sole reason I climb Nyzul on NIN and not SAM. They are epic for all that pointless running around, especially when you are puller/scouter (which I usually am).

My Nyzul static just cleared 26-50 in one night last night (5 tags, we all have Captain). I was NIN the whole way, but switched to SAM on 40 and proceeded to unleash 3 consecutive light skillchains (OK two and half, Faf was dead before I could finish the 3rd one).

If you're farming bosses, however, and can't use 2 hours each run (or your 2 hour is down), you're probably better off on NIN.
____________________________
Lothiriel on Midgardsormr
90RNG/90NIN/75DRK/90BLM/90SAM/75DNC
Bonecraft 103 (like anyone cares anymore)
#25 May 13 2009 at 8:19 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
4,327 posts
Lothiriel wrote:
Quote:
What's with NIN forums and attracting trolls? D:


How is he being a troll? lol SAM beats NIN on boss floors, end of freakin' story. That doesn't mean NIN sucks at Nyzul, our 2 hour is just pathetic.

I think for climbing they are about even. SAM will win in damage output, basically just because of what the previous poster said, they have a ton of chances to spam meditate and gain TP that other jobs don't have (lamp floors, leader floors, etc.). NIN has the advantage of slightly better survivability (yes, I said slightly, a SAM/NIN with an evasion build is nearly as good as NIN/WAR at keeping themselves alive), and, the BIG ONE: AF Feet. Ninja Kyahan are the sole reason I climb Nyzul on NIN and not SAM. They are epic for all that pointless running around, especially when you are puller/scouter (which I usually am).

My Nyzul static just cleared 26-50 in one night last night (5 tags, we all have Captain). I was NIN the whole way, but switched to SAM on 40 and proceeded to unleash 3 consecutive light skillchains (OK two and half, Faf was dead before I could finish the 3rd one).

If you're farming bosses, however, and can't use 2 hours each run (or your 2 hour is down), you're probably better off on NIN.

He didn't specify boss
Quote:
Nin is useless in Nyzul you say you can "1k Jins" But thats a lucky WS and its not consistant, The reason SAM is so good at Nyzul is because of Meditate, Sam will always have TP and on Floors where you arnt killing we sit and store to 300, Sekkonoki and that "Specified Enemy" Just got solo'ed by the Samurai while everyone else is still running.

If we were to interpret that it would seem that Samurai is the god of damage and that nin cannot compare. It's a bit troll-y D:
____________________________
drk = 80 sam = 76
pld = 79 thf= 80
nin = 80 drg = 75
mnk = 76 war = 52

Retired for now ^ Screw you Abyssea. FFXIV woo eh..
milich wrote:
buttfucking
#26 May 13 2009 at 9:43 AM Rating: Good
**
560 posts
NIN is actually pretty good on most bosses, and probably the best DD you can get on Khimera where he constantly wipes your TP. The climbing speed difference with a DD NIN is pretty huge too, you end up with a large amount of left-over time for boss simply because of how brutally effective NIN is on DC-T mobs.

Also, if you're worried about WS damage on resistant bosses you could always grab a Daedalus wing/hp build and open with Spirits Within and tank for a bit.

Quote:
Yesterday I went to nyzul with NIN... The WHM told me that NIN is useless, that I should come as another job (WAR75/DRG75/BRD75/PLD75).

It could be conjectured (especially before the recent buffs) that WHM was useless in nyzul as well. Honestly, I think the only job that has substantial difficulty there is BLM, and that's because they aren't as apt at TP burn style attack/pull speed and the bosses tend to resist magic heavily.
____________________________
SYLPH: Massivenoneko
NIN75 BLU75 MNK75 DNC75 SAM75
Aurora - Linkaga
#27 May 13 2009 at 4:31 PM Rating: Good
**
389 posts
massivenoneko wrote:
NIN is actually pretty good on most bosses, and probably the best DD you can get on Khimera where he constantly wipes your TP. The climbing speed difference with a DD NIN is pretty huge too, you end up with a large amount of left-over time for boss simply because of how brutally effective NIN is on DC-T mobs.


MNK is better at DoT than NIN.

2 swigs of D38 weapons @272 delay vs 2 swings of D48 weapons @348 delay

Plus mnk has acess to better haste, and some abilities that actually do somthing.
#28 May 13 2009 at 5:29 PM Rating: Default
**
663 posts
IloveSAMsmorethanlife wrote:
and that "Specified Enemy" Just got solo'ed by the Samurai while everyone else is still running.

Because NIN can't solo, amirite?

IloveSAMmorethanlife wrote:
My Ninja is probably my new favorite job because its just a machine at what it does but Nyzul Isle isnt one of those things.


IloveSAMmorethanlife wrote:
61 Nin


^ Speaking from experience I see.

wyrmnax wrote:
MNK is better at DoT than NIN.

2 swigs of D38 weapons @272 delay vs 2 swings of D48 weapons @348 delay

Plus mnk has acess to better haste, and some abilities that actually do somthing.


Maybe if you are subbing WAR, if not you won't come close. Protip: I have both jobs at 75; NIN's DoT is way higher unless the MNK is subbing WAR. Loss of Double Attack and Berserk hurts, a lot.

Also, what abilities are you talking about? Sans Hundred Fists, Formless Strikes is situational at best in Nyzul, if you kill the ramparts and get items (like you're supposed to) bosses are such a joke that Penance is pointless. Other than that MNK can what, punch stuff?

I'm not here to debate which job has the bigger E-Peen, just wish people would stop shitting on a job they probably don't have at 75 and if they do, are wearing Dodge Earrings full time.
____________________________
Server: Caisith
Character: Madvillain
#29 May 13 2009 at 7:34 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
Avatar
*****
10,813 posts
wyrmnax wrote:
massivenoneko wrote:
NIN is actually pretty good on most bosses, and probably the best DD you can get on Khimera where he constantly wipes your TP. The climbing speed difference with a DD NIN is pretty huge too, you end up with a large amount of left-over time for boss simply because of how brutally effective NIN is on DC-T mobs.


MNK is better at DoT than NIN.

2 swigs of D38 weapons @272 delay vs 2 swings of D48 weapons @348 delay

Plus mnk has acess to better haste, and some abilities that actually do somthing.


i was going to mention that, but my MNK bias comes out too often (this isn't bias though; NIN has absolutely no chance of out melee-DoTing an equally well-geared and played MNK. be more useful than the MNK? possibly. do more total DoT somehow? i can't see how, but possibly. do more melee DoT? apoc.DRK doesn't do more melee DoT:P).

that said, this whole argument is stupid. NIN, like every survivable DD, can be an asset in nyzul. nyzul is fucking easy people, don't fight.
____________________________
pahn
retired monk

i wish to be the red comet.
#30 May 13 2009 at 10:50 PM Rating: Default
***
1,387 posts
Oh, the SAMs and the MNKs spreading their gospels.


____________________________
THF75 BLM75 WAR75 NIN75 RDM51 BST38

lolgaxe+1 wrote:
Shock value isn't always a bad thing. Square Enix does it all the time. I mean, put a Ninja in a Walahra Turban and have him two hour. Is that politically correct? NO.

#31 May 14 2009 at 1:57 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
Avatar
*****
10,813 posts
Haletxamehk wrote:
Oh, the SAMs and the MNKs spreading their gospels.




call it what you want, but believing that say, an equally geared NIN would out melee DoT a MNK is simple ignorance. no room for opinions, really.
____________________________
pahn
retired monk

i wish to be the red comet.
#32 May 14 2009 at 4:30 PM Rating: Default
**
663 posts
I don't think you can really speak in such absolute terms, can you? It's going to be situational.

Let's assume max (non relic/mythic) gear sets:

NIN
Senju/Perdu
Fire Bomblet
Hope Torque
Brutal/Suppa Earrings
Full Usukane
Rajas/Toreador's Rings
Speed/Velocious Belt
Forager's Mantle

vs.

MNK
Destroyers
Black Tathlum
Faith Torque
Brutal/Hollow Earrings
(same)
(same)
Black Belt
Forager's mantle

I just don't see unless a MNK subs WAR how they are going to keep up with the speed a NIN can produce. I've gone to Limbus events with Black Belts MNKs with very good gear; my NIN isn't anything special and i'll be damned if they even came close to my DoT while subbing NIN. They aren't even in the ball park with my attack speed. With one Haste and One March there is zero delay in my attacks.

I'm not a math guru, nor do I pretend to be. I am just taking observation and posing the question, wouldn't it be more situational than absolute? If you factor in food, mob types, sub jobs?
____________________________
Server: Caisith
Character: Madvillain
#33 May 14 2009 at 5:33 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
665 posts
It's pretty absolute, mnk/nosub will out DD a nin/war with the gear you listed. The thing that skews parses is not that Nin is as good at DD as Mnk, it's that Mnk takes hate and has to cast shadows. It's that as a first voke Nin generally gets haste first, and keeps it when everyone else doesn't.

Plus, full Usukane doesn't do the same for Nin that it does for Mnk for one reason, Black belt. Mnk caps haste with Usukane and BB. Nin, at best gets 19% haste with full Usu, which is a good 2% lower than what a hybrid build could produce.

Nin just doesn't have the things to fall back on that mnk does. Mnk has higher base acc out the gate, comperable delay, higher base dmg, acc increasing JA's. I've argued that Nin can keep up with Mnk in game before, sure, but that's based on the fact that the more awesome the Mnk is the more he's going to be doing to mitigate damage. Time mitigating damage is time not punching...straight up though, Mnk wipes the floor with Nin in DoT potential.

Plain and simple if a Mnk wants to they could sub /War and all these arguments become moot.

Edited, May 14th 2009 9:44pm by Bauran
____________________________
WAR 6/18/06
Suppanomimi: 6/20/06 Rajas Ring: 8/20/06
NIN [Current Main] TP|WS
PLD TP|WS /// SAM TP
#34 May 14 2009 at 5:34 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
3,141 posts
Ryuukage wrote:
Problem is getting throwing to cap and my personal willingness to spend that kind of gil. (._.')


Pebbles :)
____________________________
.
#35 May 14 2009 at 11:14 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,285 posts
milich wrote:
Haletxamehk wrote:
Oh, the SAMs and the MNKs spreading their gospels.




call it what you want, but believing that say, an equally geared NIN would out melee DoT a MNK is simple ignorance. no room for opinions, really.


I was actually looking for a reason to dispute this, but it's true.

Most anything I use NIN for nowadays, my MNK could to better (save God/HNM tanking, of course). Both DD and tanking. Not even just DoT. Sure, NIN has some nice spike Jins but MNK has very consistent Asuran's, not to mention high-TP DKs as well as Howling/Ascetic's Fury vs. higher defense mobs. Couple this with MNK DoT potential and survivability and it's no contest.

Lately, after tanking with NIN on things like Chary and Yovra, then coming back and doing the same mobs on MNK, I've noticed it's much easier, both on kill-speed and survivability/mage friendliness on MNK than it is on NIN.

I REALLLLLLY hate to Smiley: deadhorse but NIN desperately needs some kind of buff, whether it be tanking or DD, cuz a ton of other jobs really shit on us when it comes to most everything nowadays.

Edited, May 15th 2009 3:15am by Solrain
____________________________
zellbaca wrote:
Second, that's not how spell animations work. We wrap our arms around our faces and magic beetle shadows and sh*t fly at the targets.
kenage wrote:
And yes before you ask I'm mexican and you better not piss me off about warrior and tequila or I will drop down from the donkey and hit you with my awesome guitar.
#36 May 16 2009 at 1:40 AM Rating: Decent
*
198 posts
my Sig is out dated I have Nin 75 and a damn well geared one at that.

How can anyone who has both jobs think for 2 seconds there Ninja is better at Nyzul then there Sam? Like milch said Mnk has better DoT with such confident's I can say Sam has better overall benefit in Nyzul then Ninja.

And the whole pulling my lines out of context about the Sam Soloing the mob, Des your nin have 300 tp with Sekkenoki ready to make darkness? which usually does about 2k damage all together in less time then it takes to cast Utsu and Kuryami?
Of course Nin can solo something , But not anywhere near as fast as my Sam can.

Also the Khimira as a boss comment thats funny, First off I wait to use my 2hr / Dusty wing / Meditates tell after it uses an ability. Its very easy to time the fight starting with Sekk, Wait for a JA 2hr, wait for a JA Dusty , Wait for a JA Meditate, and I rarely get tp over 100% wiped.

Also I like how when people dont have much of a aurgument they just call you a troll or try to make fun of your post in non-Subject ways. Fire away!
____________________________
75 SAM / 75 RNG / 75 Nin / 75 Cor / 75 War
I got my endgame LS! http://homingmissile.wowultra.com/
#37 May 16 2009 at 9:28 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
1,259 posts
NIN was a great job for Nyzul back when people conserved tokens. Now you just buy enough meds to zerg the bosses and NIN is a second-rate job. They should really increase the prices for the temp items, since Nyzul is easy enough without them.
#38 May 16 2009 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
Sage
Avatar
*****
10,813 posts
Solrain wrote:
milich wrote:
Haletxamehk wrote:
Oh, the SAMs and the MNKs spreading their gospels.




call it what you want, but believing that say, an equally geared NIN would out melee DoT a MNK is simple ignorance. no room for opinions, really.


I was actually looking for a reason to dispute this, but it's true.

Most anything I use NIN for nowadays, my MNK could to better (save God/HNM tanking, of course). Both DD and tanking. Not even just DoT. Sure, NIN has some nice spike Jins but MNK has very consistent Asuran's, not to mention high-TP DKs as well as Howling/Ascetic's Fury vs. higher defense mobs. Couple this with MNK DoT potential and survivability and it's no contest.

Lately, after tanking with NIN on things like Chary and Yovra, then coming back and doing the same mobs on MNK, I've noticed it's much easier, both on kill-speed and survivability/mage friendliness on MNK than it is on NIN.

I REALLLLLLY hate to Smiley: deadhorse but NIN desperately needs some kind of buff, whether it be tanking or DD, cuz a ton of other jobs really shit on us when it comes to most everything nowadays.

Edited, May 15th 2009 3:15am by Solrain


just to be clear, the only thing i'm asserting with any force is that MNK will out MELEE DoT NIN (and everyone else, including most relic holders). MNK's melee DoT is usually 66%-70%+ of its total damage. if the same distribution is true for NIN (or any job), by deduction it follows that MNK would outdamage NIN, but i'm not entirely sure the same does hold true. i'm not saying (here, or at least not with the same 'if you don't know this, you are just ignorant' force) that MNK will outdamage everyone, i'm saying MNK will out-melee everyone.

just like a good SAM should be doing more WSs than anyone else. more WS damage? maybe. more overall damage? maybe. but just raw larger number of WS? definitely, unless they're doing something wrong.

Edited, May 16th 2009 2:27pm by milich
____________________________
pahn
retired monk

i wish to be the red comet.
#39 May 16 2009 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
*****
15,262 posts
Attention. This is a troll.

It's currently doing the same thing on the WAR forum.
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#40 May 17 2009 at 6:48 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,387 posts
I think MNKness and the SAMness is pretty well known. I don't think it takes another MNK or SAM to come in to EVERY OTHER FORUM to argue about their damage.

Thing is, people who play and love their jobs will perform well enough to foresee the differences. The more importantly here is to play it well enough to put weights into the event.

Obviously you don't bring NIN to DD a God, same token to go to whoever brings a SAM to tank a Yovra. And same thing as to have a MNK fighting something that is melee unfriendly.

____________________________
THF75 BLM75 WAR75 NIN75 RDM51 BST38

lolgaxe+1 wrote:
Shock value isn't always a bad thing. Square Enix does it all the time. I mean, put a Ninja in a Walahra Turban and have him two hour. Is that politically correct? NO.

#41 May 17 2009 at 2:01 PM Rating: Good
Sage
Avatar
*****
10,813 posts
Haletxamehk wrote:
I think MNKness and the SAMness is pretty well known. I don't think it takes another MNK or SAM to come in to EVERY OTHER FORUM to argue about their damage.

Thing is, people who play and love their jobs will perform well enough to foresee the differences. The more importantly here is to play it well enough to put weights into the event.

Obviously you don't bring NIN to DD a God, same token to go to whoever brings a SAM to tank a Yovra. And same thing as to have a MNK fighting something that is melee unfriendly.



fuck off. someone stated that "NIN is ... probably the best DD you can get on Khimera where he constantly wipes your TP," which it is not. it's called posting on topic, dick.

"but it hurts my feelings when people write the words SAM or MNK!" yeah, because you're an idiot.
____________________________
pahn
retired monk

i wish to be the red comet.
#42 May 17 2009 at 3:07 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,107 posts
Just look at the dps of shurikens, they're unmatchable. If you can spam them, you'll be parsing on or near top even against heavy DDs.

The lvl 18 shurikens have a DPS of 9+! The 28 ones are 12+ (better than kikoku)! The lvl 48 are near 20! After Manji (48) it's unrealistic to be able to spam them, but Fuma and Koga are the bestest damage for delay you could get, plus I'm pretty sure they're piercing, so against birds you'll be getting ridiculous damage per shuriken.

Nothing in game can compare to shurikens dps flat out. However, at the same time, there is like never ever enough of them. The problem is just it becomes prohibitively expensive to spam shurikens.

Some fun comparisons of 75 TP damage
Koga shuriken is 88/192
Senj 38/227
Ebow/Kab 71+38/490/90 (109/580)
Perdu GA 96/504
Perdu Scythe 93/501
Hagun 75/450
Thal 94/492

So Koga has 1/3-1/2 the delay of the other two hand weapons with near the same base damage (+ piercing bonus!) Of course good luck getting any koga shurikens. Juji (28) and Manji (48) on the other hand still have incredible dps and are realistically craftable, though still pretty pricey for how many you'll be throwing.

It's not that shurkens suck (far from it), it's just you waste a hell of a lot of gil for that damage. Mixing shurikens in with melee hits can work out well, if you can craft them then a hybrid role would cost you about as much as ranger.
____________________________
80 Pup Brd, 75 War Rdm Drg Sam Mnk Pld Bst Thf Whm Nin Smn Blm Rng, 72 Drk, 63 Cor, 50 Blu, 40 Dnc Sch
#43 May 17 2009 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
3,141 posts
I've played this game for 4 years and never been in a party with a shuriken NIN or even heard of one.
____________________________
.
#44 May 17 2009 at 5:00 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,107 posts
It is only feasible if you've leveled smithing or have a friend who has since shurikens are rarely on the AH. It costs some gil, not much extra if you're not spamming, but with the costs of tools most people don't bother, but in the lower levels it is definitely doable if you can get your hands on shurikens, juji shurikens, or manji shurikens (all of which are comparable to rng's ammo costs).

63/192 piercing with fstr2 blows away any other option for lesser colibri, which the best weapons in those ranges are like 25/190 or 31/222. At 55 using a bubaso/kunai vs a manji on lesser colibri with ~55 str ~300 attack you'll be swinging for 10-27 with an attack round 250~300ish and throwing for 83 at 192 delay. Getting specific gear for racc/ratk for a throw macro and you can easily out damage katanas. On merit mobs with 400~ attack with a 38 katana you'll hit for 21~41ish compared to a manji hitting for 85, so it can still be decent damage, however, once you get to merits you'll have more DW and haste, so shurikens low delay is basically negated by a full attack round doing roughly the same damage without consuming ammo.

It's not that it isn't good, it's just only feasible mid game, which no one really cares about anyways.
____________________________
80 Pup Brd, 75 War Rdm Drg Sam Mnk Pld Bst Thf Whm Nin Smn Blm Rng, 72 Drk, 63 Cor, 50 Blu, 40 Dnc Sch
#45 May 17 2009 at 8:25 PM Rating: Good
**
315 posts
Requim wrote:
On merit mobs with 400~ attack with a 38 katana you'll hit for 21~41ish


Where are you getting your numbers? They seem low. I don't think I've ever seen a Nin in merits hit in the 20s.
____________________________
75NIN, 75BLM, 75SCH, 75SAM, 64BRD, 41RDM, 37DNC, 37WHM, 37WAR
#46 May 24 2009 at 3:47 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,890 posts
No no your doing it wrong. You must use the super secret boomerang NIN <.< (old joke)

Anyhow, this is one of those ~duh~ things that SE screwed up. Gave NIN awesome throwing skill, but the ammo is incredibly expensive for what you get out of it.

Personally, I wish SE would add "throwing WS" to NIN. Then you could use Katana's to build TP, and then use a throwing WS with a 88DMG weapon. Then make ammo stack to 99 and possibly bundleable. But we can all dream.
____________________________
RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the @#%^ out of the way instead...
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 22 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (22)