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NIN/RDM|BLM 101: FAQ and StrategyFollow

#52 Jul 24 2006 at 10:23 PM Rating: Default
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Bumpdate!

I'll do you the favor of making your thread a bit more visible (via Dia Flames) Margy. Now that NIN has meritable SAN spells, can we se a more viable end game NIN/RDM|BLM Ninjutsu DD?

I mean the combo has already been set with gear in endgame long ago (LVL 72 JSE, Torques, etc.). I think people should be open to the possibility that NIN/RDM|BLM is going to be a force to be reckoned with.

Seeing as the San recasts are so high, here is something to think about…
You could try creating a double wheel of sorts. Alternating Ni and San spells in such a way that they assist each other…

Doton: Ni > Huton: San > Hyoton: Ni > Katon: San > Suiton: Ni > Raiton: San > Doton: San > Huton: Ni > Hyoton: San > Katon: Ni > Suiton: San > Raiton: Ni > Doton: Ni…

Anyone have any opinions?

Edited, Jul 24th 2006 at 11:37pm EDT by DianaraVP
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#53 Jul 25 2006 at 12:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Seeing as the San recasts are so high, here is something to think about…
You could try creating a double wheel of sorts. Alternating Ni and San spells in such a way that they assist each other…

Doton: Ni > Huton: San > Hyoton: Ni > Katon: San > Suiton: Ni > Raiton: San > Doton: San > Huton: Ni > Hyoton: San > Katon: Ni > Suiton: San > Raiton: Ni > Doton: Ni…

That's an excellent suggestion, although in the end if elemental:ni isn't worthwhile by itself, I'm not sure it would be worthwhile half the time either.

I suspect that tier-3 nukes aren't going to be especially valuable for a regular NIN, but /blm or /rdm, using staves and +magic gear, have suddenly become much more viable. I suspect that with haste gear, haste spell, and perhaps fastcast from /rdm, the recast would be tolerably low.
#54 Jul 25 2006 at 1:11 AM Rating: Default
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Oh, I totally see stave wielding NINs getting mad love with the San spells.

My suggestion about the San > Ni thing is totally dependant on how long the recast times are. The thing I don't like about the idea though is that the Ni spells won't do too much damage and so its like 1 nuke for the price of 2. That's yucky. Nevertheless, if the cast times are long enough then it could show promise.

I imagine with enough Haste and Fast Cast (through /RDM or gear) they would be able to be chained effectively. I can't wait to hear some numbers on damage and cast/recast times.
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#55 Jul 25 2006 at 6:54 AM Rating: Good
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Well, since the casting time on the :San spells is almost double the time of the :Ni spells, I think SE screwed the pooch on this one. The damage itself isn't double, so spinning the :San wheel will net less damage overall as a complete wheel.

What might be worthwhile though, is fully meritting one or two :San spells, and adding them in place of :Ni nukes in the wheel. Every upgrade looks to add +5MAB, which is considerable, and the casting time means that you should be able to spin the wheel constantly with no downtime. That might give you a minor advantage over a regular :Ni wheel, but I don't see it making NIN/mage more viable at endgame.
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#56 Nov 27 2006 at 8:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Bump! :)

Quote:
you can't get MAB from a subjob until main NIN30 anyway (NIN40 for /RDM).


Is this correct? I tried soloing this weekend as 22NIN/11BLM and had MAB as a trait.

I decided to try this combination soley to raise my ninjutsu skill. Since the first ninja spell isn't until level 10, and it's rarely cast at that (Tonko), I was sad to find that my skill didn't increase quickly by just using Utsusemi and eventually Kurayami. Coming into level 22, my skill was only around 29, equivalent to roughly a lvl 9 ninja, so Utsusemi was getting interrupted any time I got hit in xp parties.

To remedy this situation, I'm soloing to cap my ninjutsu (caps at 69 at lvl 22). BLM sub has proven great not just for MAB, but mainly for Bind. I Bind a DC/EM mob (Jugner Forest at 22) and then just spin the wheel. Ninjutsu skill ups have been fast and after only a couple of hours I'm already at a skill of 62.
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#57 Nov 27 2006 at 8:43 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I got it confused with Clear Mind. BLM gets Magic Attack Up at level 10. It's moot though, NIN/mage still doesn't work until 40 no matter wen you get the first MAB.
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#58 Nov 28 2006 at 11:24 AM Rating: Decent
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The stickie request? Yeah that was me.
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#59 Dec 01 2006 at 3:37 PM Rating: Good
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Erm, I like this guide and all, but I'm not sure it deserves to be a forum sticky, heh. dawgdchi's thread is general and broad and is good for all Ninjas, this one is very specific and tailored to a small portion of the NIN population.

Edited, Dec 1st 2006 6:41pm by MargavineLiselle
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#60 Dec 02 2006 at 11:11 AM Rating: Decent
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It's still a very nice guide for ninja's that don't think about the possiblities of mage subs.

Such stickies as the /Rdm guide in the Paladin forums are just as usefull.
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Thris the WARRIOR.

Apessius wrote:
Apessius>> (Experience Points) is such a cockblocker.

Square Enix actually wrote:
Comfortable, fuss-free adventuring for all players is one of our biggest priorities.
#61 Dec 07 2006 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
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I do very much like the guide &, with currently being only 37 Ninja, cannot wait till I am able to explore this pathway. I'm one to research before going anywhere, and in researching I've found a couple pieces of equipment that should be helpful.

1) Mountain Gaiters, notably: +2 INT & +5% spell interrupt
2) Sennite Bangles: +1 macc

Anywho, hope this helps your guide & thanks for creating it.
#62 Dec 13 2006 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
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A LS friend is leveling PLD right now, and I'd mostly stopped NIN for a bit 800 EXP into 51 to get better gear. When he got to 50 though we agreed to start a party together. So I went NIN/RDM and we got a party of 50-51 together and went to Kuftal Tunnel (which is a bit too early lol).

I've got HQ staves from BLM and SMN, Moldy Earring, and some lower level INT+ gear, so this is something I wanted to try for a while.

Setup was NIN/RDM (me), PLD/WAR, BST/NIN, RDM/BLM (refreshed and healed), BLM/WHM, and MNK/WAR. It later ended up being NIN, PLD, BLU, WAR, RDM, WHM.

The party lasted quite a while and I went from 800 into 51 to 3k into 53.

At 51 resists were kind of bad, but my overall damage was still decent. By 52 the whole wheel went off unresisted occassionally. At 53 m.acc was significantly improved and ~70% of the time spells went off unresisted, and the crabs were getting torn up pretty bad. The spells hit for 125-135 +/- the usual random day/weather bonuses.

The WAR in the party said he'd never seen a ninja do so much damage at this level which I thought was pretty cool.

I think I went through about 1.5 stacks of all the tools, but I didn't keep close track of it. My katana skill fell behind too, but that's not too hard to catch up.

The biggest drawback, besides price (PLD said I was shovelling gil at the mobs hehe), was inventory space. I was at 58/60, and didn't even take my AF out of storage. So, if I wanted to do this once the AF head was available at 56 I'd probably have to leave a bunch of stuff in MH that I'd rather bring with me just in case. (Echo drops, oils, tonko, etc.)

Overall, it was pretty fun.
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#63 Dec 14 2006 at 7:05 AM Rating: Good
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ROFL @ going to Kuftal at level 51, the mobs are 9-12 levels over you at that point. When I fought the Robber crabs there on my NIN/RDM, I was level 54 (and hit 55 in that party). Average damage was 140-150 a shot, according to the parse I have (it's old). I think this combo performs at its peak (relative to melee DDs) when you're battling low ITs, because resists are low enough to get full procs through most of the time, but the penetrating power of nukes still give you more oomph. But hey, it still worked for you. ;)

So was your RDM on the ball with Dispel? Bubble Shower is death to a NIN/RDM vs. crabs, it's a 50% flat reduction to all nuke damage when it's up. If your RDM wasn't very good, a lot of those resists you were seeing might actually have been from the mega-Shell buff. But otherwise, crabs have very low INT, so the :Ni nukes hit harder than normal (I had some accidental MBs that hit for over 200 in that parse).

P.S.: kavius, I added those two pieces of gear to the list, hands and feet are pretty lacking so they might be good alternatives.
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#64 Dec 14 2006 at 10:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Hehe, yeah my PLD buddy said the crabs were hitting him way harder than he was used to. But he's a Taru and was getting 5mp/tick MP (Refresh+Parade neck+something else?) back so he spammed Cure III and perservered. I had about 170MP (5MP merits, Hume RSE feet, etc), so I tossed out Cures as needed, after battles, and while waiting on Suiton's timer to come up again, and the RDM would Refresh me when I was low on MP.

I went back last night from 53->54 as /WAR. Using Katanas fulltime really made me miss the m.acc from staves. With capped Ninjutsu at 54 I was getting resisted more than two levels earlier as /RDM.

Bubble shower is the STR-10 and AoE water damage move, but I'd stop casting and switch to katanas until that evil 50% Shell move was dispelled. The RDM was on the ball with Dispels 90% of the time though.

One problem I meant to ask about was switching back and forth between Elemental Staves and Katanas.

While hitting for 0 with 29 added effect, or getting a crit for 32 (always 32 oddly enough) with my 4 Staff skill was amusing (to me anyway) the 1% of the time I didn't miss, I'd macro swap back to Yoto +1s while waiting on the wheel to be ready again. Which was usually only one or two attack rounds, but I didn't see a point to whiffing with a staff.

I made a "Katanas" macro:
/equip Main "Yoto +1"
/equip Sub "Yoto +1"

Which always failed to equip the second Katana with the "You need a mainhand weapon first" message. So I added a "/wait 1" line, and it worked, but if I went into a menu it would fail, and I would often attack with only one katana before the other blinked in. And single wielding katanas is of course pretty bad damage:delay.

Is there a way to work around that? It's only a minor annoyance, and I was still doing a nice damage before poking the crabs, but I wouldn't mind any improvements. ^.^

Great guide, btw! It's a fun and viable alternative to /WAR and tanking all the time.
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#65 Dec 14 2006 at 10:39 AM Rating: Good
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Ahh yeah, it's called Bubble Curtain, Bubble Shower is the AOE. My bad, it's been months. ;)

Funny thing about meleeing with a staff, all melee weapons have a minimum 20% hit rate, so even with 4 skill you'll still land one hit out of every five on average. All of my parses have me listed as anywhere between 19-21% melee accuracy during times when I used staves alone. Crits I beleive are always the same because your ATK is so low that pDIF is as low as it can go, and fSTR is minimal (because of your gear), so the flat pDIF boost of a crit always gives the same general damage output.

My melee swap macro, if I recall correctly, had /wait .1 between the weapons and I always stayed out of the menu so I did not experience the same thing you were running into. Unless I was lagging badly, the offhand katana would always stick.

It's not a big deal in my opinion, your melee damage is going to be horrible (not eating melee food or wearing good melee gear, plus katanas suck at those levels anyway), the only real pull is to try to stick the DEF down for other melees with Yoto, or keeping your katana skill reasonably on par. I think my katana skill was 20-30 points underlevelled, despite my melee macro, when I finally gave up /mage for /RNG.

I've discovered that ToAU ends this combo prematurely, because it's ineffective vs. the Lesser Colibri and Puks that people tend to fight these days in the high 50's.
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Greatest RDM thread... ever.
"There is no 'ding', only ZUUL."
#66 Jan 16 2007 at 10:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Just wanted to chime into this thread as I tried this combo 2 nights ago 48-50 in Crawler's Nest then later Garliage Citadel. I chose to sub rdm and since this is pre-staff level I engaged + enspelled for a little extra damage between casts/and when wheel timer was down. At first my party and even some of my friends gave me funny looks... but after the first two mobs everyone including myself looked like this : =Q_______

I wasn't sure how well it would work pre-staff level, so I didn't really bring any INT gear or food, so all I had on me was my Moldavite Earring. I was averaging about 107 per nuke, which I guess is pretty nice. Even if that’s low for mage Nin I think the overall DoT is still higher than what anyone else in the party was putting out. My Paladin friend had difficulties pulling hate off me quite often, and there was no need for her to cover me since I could just cover myself with Ni and Ichi. We killed so fast we ended up driving the competing party out and cleared the pull zone of mobs completely.

For the most part, I wanted to try this as soon as I saw this guide at least once, since I'm generally poor and really can't afford to do this as a regular thing. My wallet is crying now but I think the experience was more than worth it. I definitely want to try this whenever I can if I happen to come by a lucky break with a NM or something and come up with some money to play with, especially with staves, food, and INT gear. Anyways thanks Margavine for making this guide. You got me into a VERY expensive but addicting hobby lol >.<
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#67 Mar 09 2007 at 9:26 PM Rating: Decent
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It is indeed a useful post MargavineLiselle. I'm glad you wrote this one and more than glad that I am in agreement. In regards to "tanking" using this style it is possible at certain levels. These levels are typically before level 55. If you like I can go into details as to why this is possible and useful for various party configurations.

Although not many players consider this path, there were a few JP players that did this to tank. Considering that this was about 2 years ago, most of the players that did not understand the playstyle went ballistic mad and requested the change to the standard nin/war job. Thankfully, I was not the only who had understood HOW he wanted to tank and asked him to ignore the other players who didn't.

The biggest reason for not playing this style OR the throwing style is cost and availability. If you want to deal heavy damage quickly to compensate for the "spike" hate than these are the jobs to do it with. Granted that even if you lose hate do to spike abilities it will eventually come back to you because of your sustain hate.

Hopefully, as more members contribute to this post it'll become more complete and more accurate. I hope. Thanks again for a good post.


Meribela,

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Elvaan:75NIN/75WAR/75BRD/75RDM
#68 Apr 03 2007 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Some new stuff has come into the picture for Ninja nuking... gear sidegrades and upgrades and the meritable San Spells.

Seems like a Nin could make nuking effective at level 75 where most parties don't have a single tank. By then there are many MAB and INT and skill options. Subbing RDM would give MAB I trait as well as Fast Cast II. Dropping the recast timers and adding some San spells, a NIN/RDM could probably skip the elements his target is prone to resist the most and do a partial Ni wheel followed by a partial San wheel and perhaps have low enough recasts to just keep repeating.

FC II is 15% spell recast reduction. So is the Haste spell, and they stack.

Some MAB items I'm thinking of specifically are:

Magic Attack Bonus I trait +20
Moldavite Earring +5
Uggalipeh Pendant +8
Denali Keks (lvl 40 Nyzul Isle Assault drop) +3 also +3 M. Acc
Koga head +5
There's another earring that's +7 MAB but um good luck getting it.


Then HQ staves for nuke accuracy and +15% damage.

Then there's plenty of +skill and +INT items for NIN to fill the gaps in other slots. I'd think they'd be able to do close to 300 with Ni's and maybe like 400 with Sans. Ni still > San as far as DOT goes, but San would just be there to fill the gaps when Ni recasts are not up yet, so you would only have to stop nuking in order to cast shadows.


IDK, the topic interests me. Probably take my NIN sub up and test some things out.
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#69 May 26 2007 at 1:02 PM Rating: Decent
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With really good gear @41-42 in CN I was able to do 130+ dmg per spell.
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