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NIN/RDM|BLM 101: FAQ and StrategyFollow

#27 Nov 18 2005 at 7:46 PM Rating: Decent
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perfect guide. if i could, i'd rate up. well done.
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#28 Nov 18 2005 at 11:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I would like to ask something:
Since I'm not on too often, me and another Ninja friend might duo for a long time. I would go NIN/war (or thf or something) and he could go nin/rdm

At what point woult this be a viable option(as in, what level?)? How long could it last, and would it be effective/worthwile?

Thanks ;)
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#29 Nov 19 2005 at 5:43 AM Rating: Decent
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AWESOME job MargavinLiselle. /clap
#30 Nov 19 2005 at 12:59 PM Rating: Good
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/clap margavine. fabulous guide.

one thing if i may suggest: this is a distinction i have been making for a while. throw in the word MAIN into the tanking bit.
ie: "/rdm or /blm is NOT IDEAL for MAIN/PRIMARY tanking" due to absense of provoke of course, "however makes an IDEAL secondary tank/dmg sponge."

if i ever do lvl rdm i would go hybrid nin. i would still wield katanas and utilize melee gear and utilize the subjob+moldavite earring+af2 mask for the ninjutsu dmg side. this is what i been dreaming of trying out someday....
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#31 Nov 20 2005 at 1:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Sticky Thread : [Do you need it] !
#32 Nov 23 2005 at 6:49 PM Rating: Good
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Update to FAQ: added question on +Elemental Skill.

(thanks for the kind words, I'm glad people like he FAQ)
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#33 Nov 24 2005 at 10:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Great guide, I have a suggestion. I often hear that the wheel begins to lose a lot of its power 60+, so I'd really like to see your insight on that listed in the guide (or maybe I just overlooked it >_>)
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#34 Dec 30 2005 at 1:52 AM Rating: Decent
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I just read the thread because I started this week with trying out out Nin/Rdm at lv 40. This thread comfirms a lot of the things I was allready thinking of.

I would like to remark on the Race Q&A that the reasoning is valid for the base stats...but in reality the difference in int will be far less, because the RSE compensates serverly in INT (Atleast I know this for sure for Galka).

I'm trying to avoid being maintank, because using RSE and other int has left me pretty weak in the evasion department...making all my shadows drop before the recast is done. Maybe this will improve when being hasted. Still need to find that one out ;>.>

However for maintanking I think Nin/Rdm can generate great spike hate with the use of Cures which is another good argument versus Nin/Blm.

On another note: Doing the "Under Observation" Bcnm with 2 Nin/(Rdm or Blm) and a kiter is awesome and very easy/safe :) I haven't seen a Peacock Charm drop yet, but am still hopefull ^^ Should be a good way to counter the cost of exping
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#35 Dec 31 2005 at 1:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I'm trying to avoid being maintank, because using RSE and other int has left me pretty weak in the evasion department...making all my shadows drop before the recast is done. Maybe this will improve when being hasted. Still need to find that one out ;>.>


Scrap that...I seem to end up main tanking anyways. Having another person with voke is something I would very much apreciate although I can get hate back pretty with cures.


Also I ended up partying with another friend who was Nin/Blm and came to the conclusion that having more then 2 Nin/(Rdm or Blm) won't really improve the damage. We toke turns in the elemental wheel for maximum damage. This way the recast was eliminated too. (in second wheel order was switched) But I don't think the wheel could go any faster as it went. So with 3 Nin's you would end up doing the same damage if everyone followed the wheel. Or...don't follow the wheel and as result doing less damage on each hit. I think a "Normal" damage dealer would be better.
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#36 Jan 10 2006 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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So Liselle, tell me this. On a typical mob, how many wheels do you end up spinning? I'm looking over my logs, and I do roughly 1000 dmg/mob pre-60 as DD NIN, of which 1/4 comes from WSes. I figure that's roughly 1.5 wheels worth. Once I got Jin though, my WS accounted for roughly 1/3 of the damage, and I was doing around 1200/mob. I seriously think NIN/BLM becomes less efficient the closer you get to 70, and for sure once Fudo/Senji comes into play.

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#37 Jan 10 2006 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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This is a question that you already know the answer to. I'll answer the long way:

NIN/mage does not scale very well. If you graph the damage output relative to what other DDs can push up, you'll see two huge spikes: one at 40, then a slow decline until 51 (where it spikes again), and then a slow decline all the way to 75 (maybe a blip @60 for /BLMS, and @70 with Ugga).

I would say that this combination is at the absolute peak of effectiveness @51, the second you can equip the HQ staves. It's more or less all downhill from there, because you're stuck using what amounts to Tier II nukes. The only path for boosting your damage lies in +INT or %haste gear, which there is precious little of for Ninjas (Yasha has altered this a bit, though, I suppose).

As an example, my first party with HQ staves @51 was in Boyahda Tree fighting the usual suspects. According to the parse, my damage output was roughly 2200 per mob, and since they only HAVE about 3200-3500HP max, you can do the math and reach your own conclusions. Prior to getting HQ staves, I was able to break 40% of the total damage, even in parties with two other heavy DDs (or even a THF, still incredibly powerful with SATAVB in this range).

In all seriousness, without exaggeration or hyperbole, NIN/mage is easily the top DD from level 40 to some unspecified point in the future at 60+.

The rub is, I don't know what that point is. I think that every NIN/mage's days are numbered once Blade: Jin and Dual Wield IV come into play, if only because your "free" damage is starting to approach the damage that you pay millions for. I'm not certain if NIN/WAR ever surpasses it, but I'll admit that it's even money that it does. There was a Ninja a while back that posted his experiences with NIN/mage, having not tried it until 73+, and he managed to match a NIN/WAR in the same party, using so-so INT gear and merely NQ staves.

At some point I'll get around to having solid data (first problem: finding someone with elite gear to test against. next problem: hitting NIN endgame). But, until then, I'm confident that NIN/mage is king at least until 60, after which the lack of scalability starts to really bite you in the ***.

So, yeah.

EDIT - another acecdote: in my pre-HQ days, I was in parties with THFs where the tank was only keep hate by virtue of the fact that I always fought opposite them, and the THF stood behind the tank for the SATAVB when he eventually lost control (longer a fight drags on, the more likely it is).

Edited, Tue Jan 10 16:07:16 2006 by MargavineLiselle
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#38 Feb 13 2006 at 4:47 AM Rating: Decent
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I just wanted to pitch in a little bit on this, regarding a facet of NIN/rdm that wasn't addressed here (by design, I think), which is the effectiveness of NIN/rdm as a solo job.

Let me first state that I have been playing solo almost exclusively when I had the opportunity to use an Empress band. This both increases my xp, of course, but also decreases the amount of total xp I got per day, as I pretty much stopped when it wore off at the 3k xp mark. So, your milage may vary regarding how viable it is to solo Ninja; if you want to gain a bunch of levels every day, it's probably best to go party.

I also have the use of a fully leveled NPC to assist. Having both an empress band +NPC means that my per kill is about the same as if I was solo without a band, but I can kill much quicker and safer, which also allows me to gain more xp by chaining.

Having said that, I dinged 40 today as NIN/rdm. Over the first 40 levels I only parties on 3 occasions (lvl 18-19; lvl 21-22; lvl 26-27) before deciding at 27 to play Ninja exclusively solo.
As the OP stated, pre-40 /rdm is very handy for Fast Cast and for the ability to use Cure 2 on yourself. Another big advantage from 32-40 is the use of en-spells. Before the elemental Ni spells become available, the main difficulty in soloing is the lack of real damage; en-spells will add a solid 10-20% damage over the course of a fight.

This inability to do damage is also the main reason I advocate using an NPC at earlier levels, as your NPC will often outdamage you, and the ability to sc (giving your NPC a 1h axe works very well) adds a great deal more damage.

The toughest stretch for solo work thus far has actually been 37-40; while much safer thanks to Utsu: Ni, the issue of damage output becomes more glaring as the mobs become stronger while you remain stuck with the same lvl 30-32 katanas. I found these levels to be a grind.

Based on my one evening of solo post-40, though, I believe that it is a safe statement to say that playing NInja solo is a viable option for people who want to try a different type of Ninja. I know that in my experience it has been very rare to see anyone try to play Ninja with a mage sub; and while I personally would welcome such a player into my party, I expect that many people who want to try NIN/mage may have a hrd time getting invites.

If this is the case, I strongly suggest playing solo. In Eastern Altepa Desert, with the help of my NPC and using the empress band, I was able to get 3000 xp in approx. 45 minutes of play. The added damage output from the Ni spells was crazy, especially when applied to EM or T mobs who, since they are lower level than normal xp mobs, resist spells at a much lower rate. Another thing to keep in mind playing solo is that besides a lower resist rate, these EM and T mobs will also miss you more often and be easier for you to hit. The only thing preventing me from hitting Chain 4 or 5 was a lack of mobs. I did frequently hit Chain 3, including one instance where I received 360 xp for one IT dhalmel I attacked as a test.

I very much believe that with the tremendous boost in damage from the Ni spells, it would be quite possible for a NIN/rdm to reach chain 3 solo regularly at level 40 and thereby gain quite steady solo xp; at least much steadier than, say, lfg. NIN/rdm also gains the use of Regen at level 42 which I believe will prove to be a big help as well. While I personally am playing Ninja in my free time, I think it would be viable for someone 40+ to be able to gain multiple levels a day solo.
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#39 Feb 13 2006 at 1:13 PM Rating: Decent
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I am going to have to say that NIN/mage is a great tank given that you are fighting something that doesn't resist too much, or stop you from being able to cast. Crabs, beetles, crawlers, and things like that you can tank very well against. But Spiders, tormas, and things like that are harder. Also it's much better when going against low IT or high VT mobs, as you won't be resisted much.

I tanked in nearly every party I was in from level 40-68, post 60 it gets harder as other jobs get more damage equipment and you start to get resisted more. But if you are the tank in the party you can get another damage dealer instead of a tank.

Keeping hate from provoke shouldn't be hard at all. as the spike from that isn't much compaired to an unresisted NI spell. I know when I have had a thf in my party, I would have to hold back untill he did sa/ta onto me because the provoke wouldn't hold hate. I would turn the mob before they got the sa/ta off.
#40 Feb 14 2006 at 11:22 AM Rating: Good
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That's right, this FAQ was specifically tailored for NIN/RDM|BLM in parties, because that's what the questions were about. It's pretty powerful in solo, but I think better suited for inclusion in a NIN soloing guide (because NIN/WHM is also rocking in its own right).

I did a lot of soloing as NIN/RDM while I was seeking parties, also in Altepa. It's a nice way to practice Ninjutsu timing, and get some easy XP. Some of the elemental katana WS's are actually pretty powerful when you debuff the element, I had a lot of fun using Raiton: Ni to make Blade: Chi hardly ever get resisted.
darkhorror wrote:
I am going to have to say that NIN/mage is a great tank given that you are fighting something that doesn't resist too much, or stop you from being able to cast. Crabs, beetles, crawlers, and things like that you can tank very well against. But Spiders, tormas, and things like that are harder. Also it's much better when going against low IT or high VT mobs, as you won't be resisted much.

I tanked in nearly every party I was in from level 40-68, post 60 it gets harder as other jobs get more damage equipment and you start to get resisted more. But if you are the tank in the party you can get another damage dealer instead of a tank.

Keeping hate from provoke shouldn't be hard at all. as the spike from that isn't much compaired to an unresisted NI spell. I know when I have had a thf in my party, I would have to hold back untill he did sa/ta onto me because the provoke wouldn't hold hate. I would turn the mob before they got the sa/ta off.

I don't really understand why people keep saying this, I've tried tanking as NIN/RDM and it always runs into the same problems. First, +INT and +evasion gear are mutually exclusive for the most part, meaning that you have to gut your damage output (and thus your only method of holding hate) in order to get acceptable performance out of your shadows. Second, you have to stop spinning the wheel when you are running out of :Ni shadows, because otherwise you'll ***** up the :Ichi transition. Third, your grip on hate is very loose at the beginning of battles, meaning that the DDs have to hold back almost until the end of the fight, when you actually have accumluated enough hate to keep a WS from stealing it.

I've "tanked" Robber Crabs as NIN/RDM, for example, when they were VT/low IT. DDs with spike damage abilities are my worst nightmare in that scenario, because I have no way to spike hate to compensate for a Barrage/Sidewinder, or a big MB.

PLDs make us look stupid. I've fought with an Elvaan PLD who was not only able to keep hate from me better than 50% of the time, but could keep the mob from looking at the spike DDs without batting an eyelash. There's no way for a NIN/RDM to compete with Flash, Provoke, Shieldbash, and Sentinel. All we have are debuffs, Cure II/III, and :Ni nukes.

I just don't consider it worth the aggravation. Technically you can keep hate most of the time if you have merely average DDs (or DDs with a lot of damage mitigation, like ???/NIN), or a THF to trick a bunch of hate on you every fight, but that still leaves you vulnerable to exceptional circumstances (like links). Bascially, I have to attach so many caveats to it, that it would be irresponsible to suggest NIN/mage "tanking" to anyone but an elite player, or someone with an understanding static.
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#41 Feb 14 2006 at 12:02 PM Rating: Decent
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I've tried spinning the wheel on gods as 75nin/blm before, mostly because sky is kinda boring for a NIN in a LS full of pld tanks, and it didn't work very well as mentioned. The resist down effects i'm unsure of...tonberry :Ni spells give -30 resistance I believe. :Ni spells have a similar effect in ballista I think...not sure if they have the same on gods. I have a decent amount of +skill from merits and equip, and I borrowed some hq staves, I never managed to land 1 unresisted spell on any god at all...you can enfeeble them sometimes but this is true of nin/war also, I don't know if subbing a mage job helps to land blind/slow/para/poison. I didn't see the effects of subbing /rdm /blm on enfeebling ninjutsu anywhere.(which I think are none but I might have missed it).
#42 Feb 15 2006 at 10:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I don't really understand why people keep saying this, I've tried tanking as NIN/RDM and it always runs into the same problems. First, +INT and +evasion gear are mutually exclusive for the most part, meaning that you have to gut your damage output (and thus your only method of holding hate) in order to get acceptable performance out of your shadows. Second, you have to stop spinning the wheel when you are running out of :Ni shadows, because otherwise you'll ***** up the :Ichi transition. Third, your grip on hate is very loose at the beginning of battles, meaning that the DDs have to hold back almost until the end of the fight, when you actually have accumluated enough hate to keep a WS from stealing it.


Ok you don't need evasion+ gear to tank with a NIN, you have enough shadows that you will nearly always be able to cast ichi or ni when shadows are going down. Damage dealers don't have to hold back anything except the skillchain at begining of battle. But this is the same with NIN/WAR. Then later in the battle even a high damage WS shouldn't pull hate. Also that you have downtime when you are waiting for the recast timer to run out so those extra shadows you cast don't really make a big change in damage.


Quote:
I've "tanked" Robber Crabs as NIN/RDM, for example, when they were VT/low IT. DDs with spike damage abilities are my worst nightmare in that scenario, because I have no way to spike hate to compensate for a Barrage/Sidewinder, or a big MB.


You must be doing something very wrong, there is no way a ranger should pull hate from you on crabs. Without buffs you should be doing like 160 dmg per spell. The only way they are going to pull hate is if they start off the battle with a sidewinder or big MB.

Quote:
PLDs make us look stupid. I've fought with an Elvaan PLD who was not only able to keep hate from me better than 50% of the time, but could keep the mob from looking at the spike DDs without batting an eyelash. There's no way for a NIN/RDM to compete with Flash, Provoke, Shieldbash, and Sentinel. All we have are debuffs, Cure II/III, and :Ni nukes.


At later levels like I would say around lvl 55 or so and higher PLD's are a better tank. Much better in the 60's. But then again we arn't pld's and subbing war won't make us tank better than plds.

Quote:
I just don't consider it worth the aggravation. Technically you can keep hate most of the time if you have merely average DDs (or DDs with a lot of damage mitigation, like ???/NIN), or a THF to trick a bunch of hate on you every fight, but that still leaves you vulnerable to exceptional circumstances (like links). Bascially, I have to attach so many caveats to it, that it would be irresponsible to suggest NIN/mage "tanking" to anyone but an elite player, or someone with an understanding static.


Thf isn't a big deal as you have to hold back so you don't pull hate before they sa/ta onto you. and an extra ta onto you isn't that much more hate.

I have come to very different conclusion, I find that it depends on the level, and what your fighting to find if you should tank or not.
#43 Feb 15 2006 at 1:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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You misunderstand the need for +evasion. It's not for survival, it's to keep shadows up as long as possible to avoid having to cast Utsusemi: Ichi, which will gut your damage output. Without +evasion, going straight from :Ni to :Ni is incredibly difficult without Elegy/Flash/etc from party members. I cringe every time I have to cast :Ichi, because that's around two nukes worth of time that I'll never get back.

I don't know about you, but I have basicaly zero time after wheels when I am DDing. Between Fast Cast and perma-Haste from a mage, the next Raiton is ready seconds after Suiton fires, if not immediately (like if I used a debuff or a Cure in there). I used to have a macro that swapped in my melee gear and a couple katanas, y'know to spend the time doing something useful, but I don't even bother with it anymore. There just isn't any time to get any swings in before I'm ready to nuke again. So when I am "tanking", and have to juggle shadows along with normal DDing duties, it's not a question of whether my damage will be impacted (because hit sure will), but how badly it will be hurt. the answer without +evasion gear is: a lot.

If you are able to hold hate from DDs all of the time, the only explanation I can think of is that you are playing with so-so DDs, or they are holding back on you. I've parsed battles where I was doing greater than 50-60% of the damage as a DD, and tanks/DD are still able to peel hate right off me. The reason is that my hate and DOT are both very flat, and anyone who temporarily surpasses me (because of a WS or a crit or Barrage or I have a bad string of resists, blah blah) will get the hate. If that happens to a PLD, they have a laundry list of buttons to press that will temporarily overcome that shortfall. Even NIN/WAR can use Provoke for that, if it's up.

When I was levelling NIN/RDM at low levels, PLDs were the only people who could consistently keep hate away from me. This wimpy little Tarutaru PLD, who parsed less than 5% of the total damage in a party vs. Beetles, kept hate away from this Ninja even though I was doing twice as much damage as the 2nd best DD. I hardly had to use :Ichi at all, I was able to fling up :Ni only in situations where I took hate, which was usually towards the end of the fight (for obvious reasons). PLDs start owning starting at 37 (Flash), and moreso once Refresh comes into play. While their AF gives them a nice little push in the mid to late 50's, they are already king hate-holders before then.

I don't know if you've played/levelled classes that don't rely on damage to hold hate, but it sounds like you haven't. There is a lot more to tanking than just outdamaging everyone's DOT. There's a reason why nobody takes a tank seriously unless they have Provoke. There's a reason why PLDs are as good at holding hate as they are, it doesn't have much to do with +enmity, and it certainly has little to do with their damage output.

If we could get Flash, or Shieldbash, or something that disproportionately ****** off the mob instantly, then I'll be the first person to advocate NIN/mage tanking. But until then, I'm not. As it stands now, relying purely on DOT to hold hate is sprinting along a razor's edge, especially given the time and equipment problems that NIN/mage DD's face in particular.

That's all there is to it, imo.
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#44 Feb 15 2006 at 4:27 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
You misunderstand the need for +evasion. It's not for survival, it's to keep shadows up as long as possible to avoid having to cast Utsusemi: Ichi, which will gut your damage output. Without +evasion, going straight from :Ni to :Ni is incredibly difficult without Elegy/Flash/etc from party members. I cringe every time I have to cast :Ichi, because that's around two nukes worth of time that I'll never get back.

I don't know about you, but I have basicaly zero time after wheels when I am DDing. Between Fast Cast and perma-Haste from a mage, the next Raiton is ready seconds after Suiton fires, if not immediately (like if I used a debuff or a Cure in there). I used to have a macro that swapped in my melee gear and a couple katanas, y'know to spend the time doing something useful, but I don't even bother with it anymore. There just isn't any time to get any swings in before I'm ready to nuke again. So when I am "tanking", and have to juggle shadows along with normal DDing duties, it's not a question of whether my damage will be impacted (because hit sure will), but how badly it will be hurt. the answer without +evasion gear is: a lot.

If you are able to hold hate from DDs all of the time, the only explanation I can think of is that you are playing with so-so DDs, or they are holding back on you. I've parsed battles where I was doing greater than 50-60% of the damage as a DD, and tanks/DD are still able to peel hate right off me. The reason is that my hate and DOT are both very flat, and anyone who temporarily surpasses me (because of a WS or a crit or Barrage or I have a bad string of resists, blah blah) will get the hate. If that happens to a PLD, they have a laundry list of buttons to press that will temporarily overcome that shortfall. Even NIN/WAR can use Provoke for that, if it's up.

When I was levelling NIN/RDM at low levels, PLDs were the only people who could consistently keep hate away from me. This wimpy little Tarutaru PLD, who parsed less than 5% of the total damage in a party vs. Beetles, kept hate away from this Ninja even though I was doing twice as much damage as the 2nd best DD. I hardly had to use :Ichi at all, I was able to fling up :Ni only in situations where I took hate, which was usually towards the end of the fight (for obvious reasons). PLDs start owning starting at 37 (Flash), and moreso once Refresh comes into play. While their AF gives them a nice little push in the mid to late 50's, they are already king hate-holders before then.

I don't know if you've played/levelled classes that don't rely on damage to hold hate, but it sounds like you haven't. There is a lot more to tanking than just outdamaging everyone's DOT. There's a reason why nobody takes a tank seriously unless they have Provoke. There's a reason why PLDs are as good at holding hate as they are, it doesn't have much to do with +enmity, and it certainly has little to do with their damage output.

If we could get Flash, or Shieldbash, or something that disproportionately ****** off the mob instantly, then I'll be the first person to advocate NIN/mage tanking. But until then, I'm not. As it stands now, relying purely on DOT to hold hate is sprinting along a razor's edge, especially given the time and equipment problems that NIN/mage DD's face in particular.


You can continue to talk about how you need provoke or spike hate, but I know from experiance that tanking is very good with nin/mage if you do it correctly. You shouldn't give up any damage or ninjutsu gear to do that. Also with haste and fast cast you still are going to have like 8 or so seconds between wheel casts. Once again you keep on talking about PLD tanking, NIN/WAR isn't a pld. The only thing NIN/WAR gets is provoke, which is nothing compaired to ninjutsu. Also remember ninjutsu gets more hate than just DOT since it also lowers resistance. Heck in most partys a DD can't pull hate with WS and provoke trying to turn it for thf.
#45 Feb 15 2006 at 11:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Dia 1/2 can suffer from partial resists like any other spell.
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#46 Feb 16 2006 at 7:05 AM Rating: Good
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Vamprey wrote:
Dia 1/2 can suffer from partial resists like any other spell.

For initial damage perhaps, and possibly DOT, but nobody casts Dia in an XP party for either of those things. The duration is always fixed to 60/120 seconds, the DEF down debuff is fixed 5/10%, and that's all that matters.

RE: darkhorror, I also have experience tanking, and on both sides of the fence at that. I already said all that I'm going to say on the subject. To summarize: "Tanking" via DOT is not really tanking, and requires total cooperation of the party's DDs and a special setup to work. I will not recommend it for pickup parties, if people want to play with fire and risk wiping from lack of emergency hate control, that's a personal decision. The limitations I've listed in the post above are very real, no matter what you tell yourself otherwise.
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#47 Feb 16 2006 at 10:21 AM Rating: Decent
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I fully agree with Liselle on this...and I could go into a debate as to why, but honestly it'd be backing up her points, so I'll keep it brief and throw in one scenario where I see NIN/mage tank as being in a boatload of trouble.

That hate spike is worth more than you think. Yeah, it's definitely possible to tank without it, look at MNK's that do so much DoT that they pull hate, that's basically what you're trying to do with NIN/RDM (for simplicity, I know /BLM works too). You do #%^*loads of damage and with the right setup and smart members, sure you can make it work.

However you lose the "oh @&%^" hate spike. That's the main point Liselle was trying to make. Granted, in a well run party you usually will be close enough that if a BLM overbursts and grabs hate, you can get it back shortly...but here's my scenario...and yes it'll happen even in good parties.

You're partying in an area away from zone. You're pushing for that late chain and the puller gets a bit hasty and pulls a link. Your mages start sleeping the mob while you focus on the main one. Say it doesn't stick long and they have to recast once. The only abilities you have to help grab hate off this link are your debuffs. You kill the one you're working on and turn to the new one as it starts to eat your mages without anything you can do to suddenly spike hate back to you. You require DoT, time you don't have, to get hate back.

Yeah...you could escape if you had MP and a mage for it. But late chain may lose the MP for it. And even if it's not late chain, what happens on normal links where your mages will take extra risk and damage because you can't voke while it's slept to build hate. Even the best pullers make mistakes, or the mob turns at the wrong time, or a pop happens at the wrong time. It's part of the game.

That hate spike isn't REQUIRED for tanking...but it makes the whole ordeal much riskier to not have it.
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#48 Feb 28 2006 at 6:25 AM Rating: Decent
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The febuary update added this little gem:

http://ffxi.cannotlinkto/itemdb/8046

Enchantment +3int/mnd
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<tarutaru> semi-retired
Main Jobs: 75RDM (sept? 05) - 75BLM (July? 06) - 75WAR (feb ~14 07) 75 PLD (may ~2 07) 75 BLU (jan 08) 75 DRK (~feb 08)
Full Subs: 62WHM/38THF/42NIN/51BRD/RNG37/SAM37/44COR/37BST/37SCH
In Progress subs: 16MNK/21SMN/21DRG/30DNC
I do not have pup unlocked.
Ragnarok

MargavineLiselle wrote:
Alright, I'm tired of being civil, and now I'm tired of being sarcastically condescending, too.

lolgaxe wrote:
Whining about having to farm is so 2004.
#49 Feb 28 2006 at 9:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

You're partying in an area away from zone. You're pushing for that late chain and the puller gets a bit hasty and pulls a link. Your mages start sleeping the mob while you focus on the main one. Say it doesn't stick long and they have to recast once. The only abilities you have to help grab hate off this link are your debuffs. You kill the one you're working on and turn to the new one as it starts to eat your mages without anything you can do to suddenly spike hate back to you. You require DoT, time you don't have, to get hate back.

Yeah...you could escape if you had MP and a mage for it. But late chain may lose the MP for it. And even if it's not late chain, what happens on normal links where your mages will take extra risk and damage because you can't voke while it's slept to build hate. Even the best pullers make mistakes, or the mob turns at the wrong time, or a pop happens at the wrong time. It's part of the game.


As a 75 blm, a nin friend of mine asked if he could /blm to try it out for tanking. I was skeptical to say the least, but the one thing I can say, when we did get a link, he actually would throw atleast one NI spell at each of the mobs. Once we all saw this, the rdm casted gravity and immediate made sure he had hate next to the NIN. The RDM then would buff, Stoneskin, Blink, Phalanx. The mob would be near us about 3 seconds if that. I think it all has to do with your NIN because ours would only wake up the mob with a 150% TP Blade: Ku doing more dmg then our sleep did.

I'm not throwing out the point of spike hate, it honestly has to do with your party setup. (And yes, at 75 he was throwing NI spells for over 300 dmg + Blade: Ku for 300-700)

Honestly, It's all in how you setup your party members and how much you trust the people you're leveling with.

(Edit: Don't forget about emnity merits nins can add on at 75 for more hate)

Edited, Tue Feb 28 09:14:36 2006 by AtrU
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#50 Feb 28 2006 at 9:19 AM Rating: Decent
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This does raise the question of a Ninjutsu party, any thoughts about that? NIN/BLM x5 and a BRD or RDM
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#51 Feb 28 2006 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
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AtrU wrote:
This does raise the question of a Ninjutsu party, any thoughts about that? NIN/BLM x5 and a BRD or RDM

It would work perfectly fine. You lose the benefit of the wheel's debuff (no way in **** you're going to get 5 Ninjas coordinated on the same nuke), but I think it would be more than made up for by the raw DOT being put out. Hate would no be a problem, since all of the DDs are effectively invincible, and by virtue of the fact that whoever has hate has to stop nuking in order to keep shadows up, hate will bounce around between all of the Ninjas.

The RDM will have a tough job, with a 5-deep Haste order plus curing. I think this would work better with NIN/RDMs, first because of Fast Cast, but second because the RDM can spot-Refresh random Ninjas who need MP, and they can pass Cures around. It's much more efficient for the RDM to spend 40MP on a Refresh (that in turn becomes almost 600HP in Cures) instead of using 46MP for a single Cure III. At high level, that also means that the Ninjas can cast Stoneskin on themselves, which is incredibly useful in a party situation (half-level Enhancing is not a big deal, +MND gear has triple the impact of Enhancing for Stoneskin).

BRD would be interesting. It would be a challenge to keep INT Etudes on every Ninja, you'd be hitting the recast timer pretty hard (although you could alternate with the lower-level Etudes). But BRD also gives useful buffs like Ballad II (for NIN/RDM, much much better than Refresh), Mambo, March, and Elegy.

I think it would function like a manaburn that doesn't have to rest. The mage would probably be the puller, grabbing mobs to Sleep/Lullaby at camp so that the Ninjas never stop spinning the wheel.

Good luck finding five Ninjas who are up to this, and have the gear to pull it off, though. ;)

Edited, Tue Feb 28 10:26:18 2006 by MargavineLiselle
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