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Q re:Kinematics spreadsheet & regain (or Moonshade vs Aesir)Follow

#1 Aug 03 2011 at 4:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Is it possible to account for the latent regain on Moonshade earring in the spreadsheet? I imagine it's difficult to get a perfect picture since as opposed to Atma it's not a constant regain and instead only works when engaged. But what about at least just assuming a constant 1/tic regain from Moonshade to at least provide a useful comparison between other earrings for a given lenghty fight? Somewhat related would also be SCH's Adloquium or COR's Tactician's Roll (another tricky one since depending on number and AF3+1/+2 gear, amount of regain can vary).

Even if it is possible, could someone with more Excel knowledge than me describe how to edit the spreadsheet to show the effect? I know how to add gear to the gear list, but Regain isn't a normal stat and I don't quite understand how to modify the main "Regain" formula on the main Calcs page to reflect the extra Regain from Moonshade (I imagine you'd have to reference the equipped earring, and if that = Moonshade, add some Regain - I don't know the proper syntax to write the formula though).

The reason I ask is that I'm having a hard time comparing the benefit of Moonshade latent Regain (mine is Acc+4/Regain, and yes I know I'm likely capping Acc already in many situations) versus Aesir for my non-Brutal TP earring. As a practical matter, I tend to just manually switch my TP gear macros to choose between Aesir/Moonshade before an event depending on whether I feel the overall benefit of the Regain would be helpful. Particularly in Abyssea runs where we're focusing on hitting a lot of procs, I use Moonshade (I'm actually often using VV atma and idling on Staff in such cases, for 3/tic regain if I'm engaged - I'll switch to H2H on longer fights once we hit the procs or eliminate Staff as a possibility). Otherwise I use the currently widely accepted Brutal/Aesir combo. But I'm starting to wonder if it's not just worth keeping Moonshade as my fulltime TP piece regardless of situation, and I'm having a hard time weighing the two.

Any suggestions appreciated.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2011 6:10pm by Anza
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#2 Aug 04 2011 at 12:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Don't have time right now, but I'll get back to you on this (possibly this evening). Regain was more limited in the spreadsheet due to the rarity of the stat (ie: it wasn't worth putting in yet another column just to track it). Plus, the mnk spreadsheet is still in the 'old' format which requires more manual formula tweaking to make these kind of changes.
#3 Aug 09 2011 at 4:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Removed pup stuff to make space since pup has its own spreadsheet now.

Added Moonshade Earring with Regain, one with 4 att option and one with 4 acc option.

Added Adloquium and Tactician's Roll (you can specify what regain value to use for TRoll; default is 4 for a lucky roll with +2 body).

Did not make any changes to the Footwork half of the spreadsheet.

New version at site in sig.
#4 Aug 09 2011 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
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Wow, that's fantastic. Thanks for your work!

FWIW, from playing with the spreadsheet, even the Acc/Regain Moonshade easily beats Aesir in my TP set (Taurine/Fire Taipan+2 for weapon, Thew Bomblet, 3/5 Tantra +2 and working on +2ing the body/feet, Brutal, Rajas/Epona, Agasaya/Atheling/Black Belt).

Obviously if you're capped Acc and uncapped Atk, the Atk/Regain Moonshade is even better. Note also that if you have Victory Smite, Regain becomes even more valuable and Moonshade is even better.

Caveat that, of course, the gain in DoT from Regain would also rely on using WS when you can.

Edited, Aug 10th 2011 12:50pm by Anza
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#5lynnminmay, Posted: Aug 10 2011 at 4:42 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Of course it is better .. on the paper. As you however said you basically never TP the first time you get 100% nowadays even outside abyssea (dynamis, I know b/c I'm farming a secodn relic since the ajustement...). On the other hands 3 attack is crap because while it increases the damage on the paper it will only rarely speed up the fights.
#6 Aug 11 2011 at 12:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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lynnminmay wrote:
Of course it is better .. on the paper. As you however said you basically never TP the first time you get 100% nowadays even outside abyssea (dynamis, I know b/c I'm farming a secodn relic since the ajustement...). On the other hands 3 attack is crap because while it increases the damage on the paper it will only rarely speed up the fights.


I never said I wasn't going to TP as soon as you get to 100%, just that you need to be careful to do so in order to get the most benefit from regain. 20tp/minute (1tp/3sec) is pretty useful though, practically a whole bonus attack round worth of TP every ~30seconds. And of course, if you're ever soloing on /DNC that's another very useful application.

If you're also going to complain that the alternative of extra Atk is not useful, what the **** do you want? I guess you could use Tantra for more KA or use Counter augment on Moonshade? Otherwise, just sounds like you're complaining to complain.
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#7 Aug 19 2011 at 4:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Updated version uploaded to usual location. Massive cleanup. Uses Setup page for user changes, separate from the Data page with all the calculations, so it doesn't look as messy, though it makes some changes a little harder to track. Removed the separate worksheets for Footwork stuff, it's all incorporated into one calculation set. Also fixed up Impetus calculations.
#8 Aug 22 2011 at 12:40 AM Rating: Good
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Kinematics wrote:
Updated version uploaded to usual location. Massive cleanup. Uses Setup page for user changes, separate from the Data page with all the calculations, so it doesn't look as messy, though it makes some changes a little harder to track. Removed the separate worksheets for Footwork stuff, it's all incorporated into one calculation set. Also fixed up Impetus calculations.

Is this new revised spreadsheet more accurate than the last one you had up? Reason I ask is because it looks to be a massive loss in total dps than I had found in the previous speadsheet, atleast from memory and writing things down(20-30% difference in dps).

Which seems to be a bit off more, maybe the older spreadsheets werent as accurate maybe? Comparing sam dps(from old spread format vs revised mnk) even sam is doing better, which I find hard to believe inside abyssea which the spread sheet doesnt even factor in mediate, new hassozanshin for sam or the new JA which would further boost that dps over mnk.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2011 6:40am by hitoseijuro
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#9 Aug 22 2011 at 11:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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It should be slightly more accurate due to the Impetus changes, but it shouldn't change overall DPS for any given setup too much.

The default config in the version I uploaded has Footwork active in set 1 for testing and illustration. Might check to see if you remembered to turn that off, as it will cause a significant reduction in DPS without being too obvious about why unless you check the Data sheet.
#10 Aug 22 2011 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
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Kinematics wrote:
It should be slightly more accurate due to the Impetus changes, but it shouldn't change overall DPS for any given setup too much.

The default config in the version I uploaded has Footwork active in set 1 for testing and illustration. Might check to see if you remembered to turn that off, as it will cause a significant reduction in DPS without being too obvious about why unless you check the Data sheet.


No footwork wasnt active, wish it was that to explain the difference. Even on fodder mobs the difference is a little over 10% between this and old dps numbers.

Quick question Kine, I thought like dual wield for ninja, martial arts counted toward the haste cap, was that accounted for in this spreadsheet? Reason I ask is because with haste samba I should already be capped on delay but Im not, maybe that could be why the numbers are lower?
____________________________
SERVER: IFRIT
WHM/BRD: Triangulum
PLD
MNK
SAM
BLM
DRK

#11 Aug 23 2011 at 11:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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2,236 posts
Ok, found the problem. When it was calculating average melee damage, it was multiplying crit damage by the amount -over- 100% instead of the full amount (ie: crit * 60% instead of crit * 160%). Corrected and uploaded a new version.

Also, yes, the haste cap was calculated incorrectly due to copying some of the formulas from another spreadsheet. Minimum delay should be 20% of (480 + weapon delay). That's also been fixed, though it would create a higher DPS value than true rather than lower.
#12 Aug 23 2011 at 8:09 PM Rating: Good
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Kinematics wrote:
Ok, found the problem. When it was calculating average melee damage, it was multiplying crit damage by the amount -over- 100% instead of the full amount (ie: crit * 60% instead of crit * 160%). Corrected and uploaded a new version.

Also, yes, the haste cap was calculated incorrectly due to copying some of the formulas from another spreadsheet. Minimum delay should be 20% of (480 + weapon delay). That's also been fixed, though it would create a higher DPS value than true rather than lower.


Looks great Kine, and numbers look similiar to what they were before, thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule to update and fix the spreadsheets. Yes, I was going to look into the crit factor area aswell as I had forgot to mention that items like Rancor collar were showing a less of an increase than before which seemed odd its showing the correct numbers now though.

Vere melee multiplier still 1.15 correct? Thanks again.
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WHM/BRD: Triangulum
PLD
MNK
SAM
BLM
DRK

#13 Aug 23 2011 at 9:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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2,236 posts
hitoseijuro wrote:
Vere melee multiplier still 1.15 correct? Thanks again.


No, you can set it as ODD percentage now. 30% is standard for 100 TP, and applies only to one hand (but scale by percent uptime; eg: if aftermath is only on half the time, set to 15%). Melee multiplier is for things like Magnus weapons or relic triple procs. Technically they're about the same thing, but ODD is more common and easier to understand the setting for, so it has its own entry.
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