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The 2nd best thing that makes MNK a perfect abyssea tankFollow

#1 Mar 02 2011 at 4:08 AM Rating: Good
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OK, so we have huge HP, and insanely great DoT DMG. I'd really like to know the exactt affect Subtle blow/AGL/Chi has on
our tp given/punch.

Having Subtle blow around 40% (capped with Auspice), and Pennance up for half the time, and the extra SB AGL gives I seem to be able to take Hero T2's down to around 65-70% until they use a TP move. Hero's NM's have around double scar's NM's hp (which have around double Vision NM's have - talking T2's.

Vision NM's 10-20K HP
Scars 25-40K HP
Hero's 55-70K HP

Which means around 10-20K HP is falling off of Hero's T2's before they TP move (those w/o any STP or Regain or just like to TP spam). Obviously Pennance is up from the start, then re-applied again at 25% HP.

Its the main reason for me GH is so amazing becasue the 50AGL is a great MNK Tank defensive boost giving 25EVA aswell as the 10counter.

I noticed that even though Thf's and Nin's can tank well in abys, the mob will use more TP moves with a nin tank, and substantially more with a THF tank - but both NIN and THF have their other tanking perks.

I'd like to really know how much my ~40SB(50 with Auspice) with the AGL bonus with Penance effect is having on my TP given to the mob. I already know its a substantial boost considering the few times many NM's use TP moves until spam time.

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#2lynnminmay, Posted: Mar 02 2011 at 4:24 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Auspice is not SB. The test on the wiki shows that auspice+SB caps at 50% though, but it doesn't clearly show it's 10 SB and not -10% tp. Anyway the fact that SB+auspice caps at -50% total makes it pretty fail to even cast it. If you care that much about TP you must alternate between penance and footwork.
#3 Mar 03 2011 at 2:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Its not that I care so much about it, its just something I find very noticable when low manning in abys with a whm and blm. I'd still like to know how much TP i'm dealing to the mob per punch with 40% SB, the AGL bonus and pennance applied. Wiki doesn't have anything on the affect AGL has on mob TP gain, otherwise it'd be simple to work out.

Its obviously useful as abyssea mobs are notorious for their TP moves (or not so much now, theres still some nasties out there though).
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#4MrSka681, Posted: Mar 07 2011 at 10:02 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) can i slap you for the use of AGL really wtf game are you playing its a FF game and GDI its AG(I)
#6 Mar 07 2011 at 1:28 PM Rating: Good
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MrSka681 wrote:
can i slap you for the use of AGL really wtf game are you playing its a FF game and GDI its AG(I)
and there was a post about this about 2-3 weeks ago look should still be on this page. lastly i would like to point out your not seeing less TP moves w/ a ninja tank as ninja's have subtle blow as well. infact that have more than mnk w/ subtle blow 5 trait and mnk only getting T4 per 75 now i havent done test to see if either job got another tier post 75
as for the AGI not sure where it caps but you can reduce your TP given by another 50% or what is left or 25% more off per swing. this leaves any hit dealing damage to a mob at 25% or the starting amount.
going back a bit the only a couple reasons a ninja would see more TP moves no mnk present for chi blast hince they gain to all the time and or ninja's when tanking will normally be the person looking for hints to shout to the group and to do this they cast magic.(10tp per spell hit) if fully subtle blow/agi bonuses are in affect 2.5tp to the mob

last thing i would say about this is any /nin tank that can keep shadows up will be fine on the amount of TP they feed the mob the issue is back line's looking for yellow triggers and casting stuff like dia,bio, or t1,2 nukes and feeding the mobs 100tp in a matter of seconds.

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#7 Mar 07 2011 at 2:01 PM Rating: Good
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Sandmasterr wrote:


I noticed that even though Thf's and Nin's can tank well in abys, the mob will use more TP moves with a nin tank, and substantially more with a THF tank - but both NIN and THF have their other tanking perks.





Nin has more subtle blow traits, a subtle blow spell that they can keep active 100% of the time, their own version of inhibit TP, SB merits, and also usually uses GH when tanking. Just with traits/merits/rajas/Myoshu you are looking at 45% with a cap of 50. Yurin doesn't stack with penance so its assumed they are both doing the same thing. While I agree thf is a TP feeding machine, mnk doesn't really have an edge over ninja when it comes to this.

They both have their perks. Mnk has 9999 HP. Nin has 2 extra Ni shadows and more evasion for stuff like tail tanking azdaja, cerb, hydra, etc. But SB isn't really a differentiating factor.

But ya, over 2h DD it does help quite a bit. Unfortunately it doesn't really matter since no thf likes to just build thf procs then disengage so they will be making the mob tp every 30 seconds anyway.
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#8 Mar 07 2011 at 2:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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What he meant is if the nin and mnk are equipped equally and with equal SB, use of Penance and Yurin, The mob would simply TP more often due to the nin needing to do more hits overall to kill it.

Iirc, Yurin was tested to be 10% TP inhibit, while Penance was 25%. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I dunno if 10% 100% of the time or 25% 100/180s of the time will do better or come out about the same.

On Topic: Gnarled Horn is my favorite second atma for any DD job, the huge AGI boost is quite noticeable while soloing.

RR/GH/Apoc = Win win win
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#9 Mar 07 2011 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Nin has more subtle blow traits, a subtle blow spell that they can keep active 100% of the time, their own version of inhibit TP, SB merits, and also usually uses GH when tanking. Just with traits/merits/rajas/Myoshu you are looking at 45% with a cap of 50. Yurin doesn't stack with penance so its assumed they are both doing the same thing. While I agree thf is a TP feeding machine, mnk doesn't really have an edge over ninja when it comes to this.


Nin attacks so ridiculously fast though. Also, BB on MNK is kinda like the 5th trait, so both sit on 30% with Rajas. I get another 17% from +2 head and 2nd ring (don't have epona's yet) so I'm only 3% off the 50% cap. Thats 72% with pennance up - I just want to know is AGL is affecting it more.

Nins extremely fast attack's for around half the dmg's of mnk's punches means Mnk wins by a margin for tp feed. For example, I took Cirein down to 61% before he used his first TP move last night. I simply can't do that much on nin.

Its nothing to do with which is the better DD, becasue SE has given NIN so much you can't say anymore x > y because their both that good. For majority of T3's in abys though, MNKs tanking ability's win (superior HP, less tp feed, ~70% counter rate).



Edited, Mar 7th 2011 4:05pm by Sandmasterr
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#10 Mar 11 2011 at 2:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
MNKs tanking ability's win (superior HP, less tp feed, ~70% counter rate).


I believe NIN/MNK can get counter that high as well, with AF3 legs, GH and CS. First two points stand though. Only real advantages NIN has are more shadows, better evasion, and lolparry. I can't think of anything else.
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#11 Mar 13 2011 at 10:31 PM Rating: Good
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I agree, for a standard tanking job (not having to turn, not having mob unhittable by melee) monk wins out over ninja, however, I still find ninja more useful for a lot of reasons.

That is to say, I would rather use my ninja tank for a low man setting when farming AF3+1 or +2 because of Kurayami and multiple weapon skills to proc red (for KI farming). On the other hand, I'd rather use my monk for stronger bosses like certain Caturae where the damage is so high that I want the hp buffer, not to mention the counter damage on fast hitting NMs will easily put monk ahead on damage verse ninja.
Also, and not to derail the thread, but just a curiosity question: do ninjas use berserk when tanking? I know mnk/war obviously will since the defense loss is only about 20 with counterstance, but wasn't sure if it was worth it for ninjas.
#12 Mar 14 2011 at 7:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Lothiriel wrote:
Quote:
MNKs tanking ability's win (superior HP, less tp feed, ~70% counter rate).


I believe NIN/MNK can get counter that high as well, with AF3 legs, GH and CS. First two points stand though. Only real advantages NIN has are more shadows, better evasion, and lolparry. I can't think of anything else.

Migawari
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#13 Mar 14 2011 at 7:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Migawari

^^
It's just too good for NMs like Cuijatender
#14 Mar 15 2011 at 5:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Personally, I prefer to tank /blm, and rock Ice Spikes to help with my enmity and Guard skill gear to increase my counter rate.
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#15 Mar 16 2011 at 3:11 AM Rating: Good
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I have to agree with Jinte, there is alot of argument supporting that method of tanking too.
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#16 Mar 16 2011 at 3:27 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Quote:
Migawari


^^
It's just too good for NMs like Cuijatender


As much as I love Migawari, Its still slightly limited by 1-use & recast although when used properly for this kinda thing it is easy to make full use out of it. Again, its the kind of mob where nin tank excels in because of back tanking when you don't want to be giving TP and the ability to drop decent nukes if your setup for it.

Subtle blow and mob tp gain plays a major role it using migawari to its full potential and its what makes nin the perfect tank for certain nm's. I would most certainly come nin for Cuijatender, or an nm like Bomblix Flamefinger.
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#17 Mar 17 2011 at 3:13 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Also, and not to derail the thread, but just a curiosity question: do ninjas use berserk when tanking? I know mnk/war obviously will since the defense loss is only about 20 with counterstance, but wasn't sure if it was worth it for ninjas.


I do. The defence MNK is left with after counterstance might aswell be a 0 as far as Abyssea NM's are concerned. Abyssea NM's hit hard - Theres usually no difference between the dmg I take when using CS or not using it, meaning alot of T3's in abyssea hit with capped pDIF with or w/o CS. A nin's defence isn't much better so the difference between zerk up/down is probably minimal, although using zerk will almost always cap the NM's attack ratio.
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#18lynnminmay, Posted: Mar 17 2011 at 3:54 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) All the Nms I fought are blind anyway, CC doesn't matter.
#19 Apr 19 2011 at 11:37 AM Rating: Good
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Please forgive me if this was already said, but I'm in a rush at work and didn't read everything here.

If you want to know how much tp you are giving to a mob 'exactly' just go chill with a BST for a bit in an area with low-acc charmable mobs (or if you'd like, sub bst - but it's probably best to go as mnk/WhateverSubYouNormallyUse. Hit it, charm it, <pettp>. Release pet, hit it, charm it, pet tp. Usually after about 5 rounds you'll know how much TP you are giving a mob exactly (since there are sometimes oddities with decimal points and numbers get rounded up etc - at least for players, not sure how it pans out on enemies). I used this test a long time ago when I was trying to figure out how much TP my spells vs Melee would give an enemy.
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#20 Apr 19 2011 at 1:52 PM Rating: Default
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MNK's awesome but there is no 1-job best at doing it all, you are also forgetting NIN can drop 700~1000dmg nukes feeding the mob less than 10TP per cast. :)
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#21 Apr 19 2011 at 3:34 PM Rating: Decent
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A pup with verethragna, full +2, and 100% hp pet can drop 700-1.2k dmg crits for 2-4 tp a hit. Just saying.
#22 Apr 21 2011 at 2:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
MNK's awesome but there is no 1-job best at doing it all, you are also forgetting NIN can drop 700~1000dmg nukes feeding the mob less than 10TP per cast. :)
#

It is best for most abyssea tanking however.


I love nin and mnk, and have geared them both up. I'f i'm dealing dmg or soloing (omg soloing on nin/dnc is just awesome) only then right now i'd rather be on my nin, the speed, crits, de-buffs, Yonin counter+GH, being able to equip 2 bad **** weapons is just a joyful thing to do. For anything that matters, I just have to be on mnk has my HP pool is nearly twice as much, and I deal less TP to the mobs while keeping up high dmg.
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