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Usukane upgradeFollow

#1 Feb 04 2011 at 8:07 AM Rating: Excellent
1,423 posts
Q: Are there any plans to provide a means to upgrade equipment from Salvage, Einherjar, Nyzul, and so forth? I put a great deal of effort into obtaining these items, but these days they feel underpowered.

A: Yes. Future updates will introduce not only a host of new items, but also new upgrade possibilities for existing weapons and armor. Methods including but not limited to Trial of the Magians are in the works, and we think you'll enjoy what we have in store.

Will be interesting to see what they'll do to it, but sine it's multi jobs, and not job specific, I'm not expecting anything fantastic.

I don't see anything they could add that would beat af3+2 body w/ impetus up (which is 60% of the time)
#2 Feb 04 2011 at 8:48 AM Rating: Good
712 posts
Veggeto wrote:
Will be interesting to see what they'll do to it, but sine it's multi jobs, and not job specific, I'm not expecting anything fantastic.

I don't see anything they could add that would beat af3+2 body w/ impetus up (which is 60% of the time)

Im all up for usukane look, provided it gets rid of the legs from Tantra. Tantra body+ 4/5 usukane looks decent on the altanaview. SE did salvage gear as a whole set vs increase to the bonus per piece like campaign/abyssean armor so im curious what the new bonus will be, the set being haste still would be pretty lack luster.

Either way im sure each piece will get + haste added to the amount they already have to even with a few pieces youll be capped again, assuming the stats are worthwhile to pull the tantra set apart.

If anything im sure tantra body will not be rep'd during impetus being up. However we still have 9 levels to go, im sure well get our stonger/est JAs then and theres going to be armor to buff that(either salvage+1 or something better or not...)

What I would like to see on the armor: DA, crit +% , crit damage + %, counter + damage gear(with all the countering we do, I would like to see more armor increase counter damage vs rate)
WHM/BRD: Triangulum

#3lynnminmay, Posted: Feb 04 2011 at 11:34 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It's easy, your crit rate is junk outside ash*ttea.
#4 Feb 04 2011 at 12:27 PM Rating: Decent
1,423 posts
More likely than not just adding on to the current stats is the most likely thing, if they add crit rate, sure you may have something there, but I don't think there are high chances to adding kick attacks to a non job specific "endgame" set.

It'd be like putting enhances zanshin on usu body or enhances dual wield. Don't really see something like that even being halfway close to plausible.
#5lynnminmay, Posted: Feb 04 2011 at 12:36 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) 3% crit 3% double attack and even +attack are all options that will easily beat the dumb augment impetus. Unlike what your first post suggests, the biggest problem to putting salvage gear on par with AF3 is matching its attack (or +KA dmg on shoes), and not augment impetus. Then again everyone and their sisters caps attack everywhere, in or outside abyssea.
#6 Feb 04 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
1,423 posts
One of those 3 augments would be plausible, maybe even two, but to think there's any chance of them adding 3 new stats that were never on the piece to begin with, in addition to buffing the stats already on there would not be a very smart assumption to make.
#7 Feb 04 2011 at 1:52 PM Rating: Good
20 posts
Perhaps they will allow you to choose a path like with Trial of the Magian weapons. Regardless, I'm happy about it since I'm still wearing full Usukane in abyssea. I've almost completely upgraded Tantra +1, but have no use for it other than the feet for my Victory Smite set and the +2s are very, very slow going for me atm.

However, now that I'm really thinking about it, I assume those upgrades will take just as long to attain for me as the AF3+2s are taking ><.
#8lynnminmay, Posted: Feb 04 2011 at 3:59 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Upgrading salvage gear means what it means, obviously str,dex,store tp, eva, agi are likely upgrades, then there is the full set bonus plus each other individual piece of gear. In you put say 10>15 att on legs 7 > 10 attack on feet, stp 6>10 on body, stp 7>10 on feet, more eva/str on head, more counter eva on hands, plus and added set bonus that could be double attack (the set bonus is the most valuable part of the usukane set, plus it's something that matches all corresponding jobs, so DA is a good candidate, more haste sounds stupid) you don't need huge boost to make full usu more desirable than AF3+2. Eyeballing, full AF3+2 is about 10% better than full usu and that's if you can't cap attack, when on the other side full AF3+2 doesn't compare as far as tanking goes. You would need less than 2% increase per piece of gear for full AF3+2 to remain best. Also there is accuracy in case we ever need that one again.
#9 Feb 04 2011 at 4:07 PM Rating: Default
1,270 posts
Lets not forget the trials:

Usu body +1: clear boss of X salvage 75 times
Usu body +2: clear boss of Y salvage 75 times, and hand in 10k alexandrite ><
#10 Feb 04 2011 at 4:57 PM Rating: Excellent
2,236 posts
Well, we know that the base stats are pretty much fixed. They can't add more than 5 types of improvement to a piece of armor (eg: defense, stats {str/dex/agi/etc}, accuracy/attack, evasion, 'enhances' stuff, etc), and Usukane is already pretty much at that limit.

They can, however, add augments, as we commonly see in magian upgrades, and these augments probably give us the option for another full 5 improvements.

I would speculate that there would be 5 magian paths for Usukane: one each for the specific jobs (mnk/nin/sam/pup), and one general path.

Assuming that, what could the mnk path improve on? Well, the main strengths of the Usukane set has been accuracy, evasion and haste. The Tantra set has similar total accuracy (42.5 for full Usu, 43 for full Tantra +2) and better haste (16% on three pieces vs 13% on Usukane with set bonus). And despite defense not meaning a whole lot, it's still useful at times, and Tantra wins by a pretty fair margin there (201 def/12 vit vs 132 def).

The Tantra set has significantly better str and ws mod stats (27 str/12 vit vs 16 str). It has better Subtle Blow (10 vs 5). And offensively it gives boosts to Kick Attacks, kick damage, and augmented Impetus.

A full Tantra +2 set using Smite gives 322.350 DPS without Impetus, and 398.654 DPS with Impetus.

A full Usu set (even leaving the Tantra pieces in for weaponskill) gives 298.267 without Impetus, and 349.939 DPS with Impetus.

Offensively, then, Tantra+2 is 8% ahead without Impetus and 14% ahead with Impetus. Ah, but those numbers are inside Abyssea. Let's try again without atmas and such.

Abyssea (Bison Steak, +70 cruor, RR+GH+Apoc) 
           No Impetus      Impetus 
Usukane       298.267      349.939 
Tantra        322.350      398.654 
Gain:            8.0%        13.9% 
Outside Abyssea (Bison Steak) 
           No Impetus      Impetus 
Usukane       101.697      112.535 
Tantra        119.189      145.044 
Gain:           17.2%        28.9% 
Outside Abyssea (Pizza +1) 
           No Impetus      Impetus 
Usukane       101.119      125.802 
Tantra        115.024      148.023 
Gain:           13.8%        17.7%

So that gives a range of the type of offensive gain that would be needed for Usukane to be on par with the Tantra set. You're looking at +15%-20% to really be competitive, and that's -really- difficult to manage with minor augments. Remember from the Tantra Necklace thread, the 7 skill on the Faith Torque (with base damage increase) only amounts to maybe 1.7% damage, and we'd need about 10x that amount of improvement.

However, going back to my thoughts before I got distracted, Usukane's other main strength is defensive. Where the Tantra set has basically no defensive stats other than raw Defense, Usukane has quite a bit of evasion along with a bit of counter.

Having spent a fair bit of time recently playing on thf, there's definitely something to be said for the comfort of knowing you just can't be touched. Unfortunately there's no way in **** they could add enough evasion to the set to put us anywhere near that level. Counter, on the other hand..

When we leave Abyssea, we also lose the counter bonus of the GH atma. Counter being another of the stats that has increasing returns, losing ~10% counter rate will be a rather significant loss in our defensive ******** Of course SE has also been notoriously stingy in providing gear with that stat.

Still, they could -maybe- provide us the option of building it into a significantly defensive set, with more evasion and counter and such. Add an extra 15 counter across all the pieces along with some minor offensive boosts and I think it would be worth going for.

Given that SE's thinking rarely matches mine more than tangentially, I'm not expecting much in this regard. Still, it's interesting to consider, and we can at least hope for something useful.

As an aside, regarding the body comparison: Tantra+2 is about 2.2% better than Usukane without Impetus and about 5.8% better with Impetus, without Abyssea buffs and eating Pizza. Stats you could add to the Usukane body to match the Tantra +2 body, assuming full Usu set:

Impetus down:
18 att
2% TA rate
3% DA rate
8% KA rate
5% crit rate
20% crit damage

Impetus up (note that this includes leaving Tantra+2 body on for weaponskill; using Usu body for weaponskill increases required values):
55 att
4% TA rate
8% DA rate
20% KA rate
15% crit rate

Overall average:
25 h2h skill
40 att
3% TA
6% DA
16% KA
10% crit rate

Edited, Feb 4th 2011 5:05pm by Kinematics
#11 Feb 04 2011 at 5:58 PM Rating: Excellent
619 posts
Kine should really get his own class.

Guru is not deserving of Kine lol.
#12lynnminmay, Posted: Feb 04 2011 at 7:17 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I don't understand why full tantra is that much more efficient outside of abyssea. The margin between the 2 during impetus should be small since base crit rate is low and all impetus does is averaging 10% more crit rate though only occasionnally capping it.
#13 Feb 04 2011 at 10:38 PM Rating: Excellent
2,236 posts
I can certainly see why one would question those numbers. I put them up with the basic belief that the calculations in the spreadsheet are correct (given the amount of time I've spent using and correcting them), but I still need to go through step by step to figure out *why* they come out that way.

I'm going to go through only a single comparison, the one with the most difference: outside Abyssea numbers using Bison Steak and Impetus. Also using Revenant +2s instead of Vere to avoid dealing with ODD stuff.

First, I'll strip off all comparison armor -- that is, no head/body/hands/legs/feet -- for the baseline, and look at that compared to the full sets. Note that I'm leaving weaponskill damage alone; all comparisons are changes in TP sets only.

Baseline 60.899
Usukane 112.535
Tantra 145.044

The Usukane provides a reasonable increase in damage for a full armor set, but the Tantra set does seem massive. Is it really valid? Going to work step by step with the stat increases to see why.

First, accuracy.

Note: I made a mistake in the initial comparison notes in that I forgot about the H2H skill on the Tantra hands; I was only adding up acc + dex, so Tantra should get an extra 6 acc from that.

Base acc: 412
Base hit rate: 69.5%

Usu acc: 36 acc + 13 dex
Usu hit rate: 90.5%
Usu DPS: 85.717

Tantra acc: 43 acc + 7 skill (6 acc)
Tantra hit rate: 94.0%
Tantra DPS: 94.850

That's a rather remarkable difference in DPS for the slight increase in accuracy. What's going on? Well, there's two things.

1) The dex from the Usu set also bumps up crit rate, to 6% base instead of 5%. This is a minor effect.

2) The average bonuses gained from Impetus are hugely affected by the hit rate as soon as you drop below cap accuracy.

The average crit bonus from Impetus with Usu is 8%. The average attack bonus is +19. With the Tantra set, the crit bonus is 14% and the attack bonus is +30. The Tantra set thus has a net gain (after dex is accounted for) of 5% crit rate and 11 attack on top of the higher hit rate.

I'll drop the evasion of the target mob so that both sets are capped to see how that impacts the difference in DPS.

Usu: 100.850
Tan: 100.446

Usu wins by virtue of the +1% base crit rate due to the dex. This could easily be considered having Focus up, as well, and one should certainly expect to use Focus in conjunction with Impetus, but even then there's at least 1 minute of time where you won't have them both up together.

We're currently quite spoiled by Abyssea buffs in being pretty much perma-capped on accuracy, but before Abyssea when we were meriting on pink birds, getting up to even 90% hit rate was an impressive achivement, with most people in the 80% range without sushi (Focus down). It then becomes a question of which is the more valid assumption for going forward? Because there's no way for me to tell, I'll continue using the same evasion target as I always use (395), but I'll allow for a Focus up/down comparison.

The next major stat is haste. Usu gets 130/1024 haste with the full set; Tantra gets 162/1024. I will assume Black Belt, though Brown Belt obviously heavily favors Tantra due to Tantra making up for the missing 4% relative to Black Belt.

Usu (+F): 123.050
Usu (-F): 102.581
Tan (+F): 123.311
Tan (-F): 114.162

With Focus up the two sets are still nearly identical, though swapping to be slightly in favor of Tantra due to the tiny edge it has in haste. With Focus down, Tantra increases its lead just a smidge. In all cases the haste is about a 20% increase in damage, as might be expected (only haste buff in this comparison is the Haste spell).

Next, Str. Usukane gives 16 str, Tantra gives 27. Since we no longer have Abyssea buffs, there's now the possibility of uncapped fStr. Does it matter?

Base fStr: 5
Usu fStr: 9
Tan fStr: 11

Usu (+F): 127.909
Usu (-F): 106.913
Tan (+F): 130.785
Tan (-F): 121.406

We see that the gain in damage from fStr is relatively minor, but it does further widen the gap relative to Usukane even with Focus up.

Next, attack. Including H2H skill but excluding Str, Tantra gives +32 total attack, while Usukane gives 17. Obviously this explicitly favors Tantra, but again the relative gain shouldn't be that large.

Usu (+F): 130.192
Usu (-F): 109.094
Tan (+F): 135.212
Tan (-F): 125.791

At this point I'll go ahead and convert the acc/att from H2H skill on the Tantra set directly to skill so as to gain the +1 base damage. This gives a very small gain.

Usu (+F): 130.192
Usu (-F): 109.094
Tan (+F): 136.231
Tan (-F): 126.774

Next, Store TP: 13 for Usukane, 6 for Tantra. This will favor the Usukane set somewhat.

Usu (+F): 134.684
Usu (-F): 112.535
Tan (+F): 138.359
Tan (-F): 128.594

At that point we've reached the extent of the offensive offerings that the Usukane set provides, but we still have several more things to add to the Tantra set: Kick Attacks, kick damage, MA delay, augmented Impetus and set bonus.

+7 KA rate:
Tan (+F): 141.192
Tan (-F): 131.214

+45 kick damage:
Tan (+F): 145.982
Tan (-F): 135.834

-5 MA delay:
Tan (+F): 148.045
Tan (-F): 137.756

And the big debated one:

Augmented Impetus:
Tan (+F): 154.110
Tan (-F): 142.108

In this case we see a 3.2%~4.1% increase in DPS from the +crit damage. How do we get that? Augmented Impetus gives us an average 14%-17% increase to crit rate and damage; with base crit rate of 9%, that means a total crit rate of 23%-26%. So roughly (to make it simple) +15% damage on 25% of all hits, which are themselves boosted due to crit pDifs. With 1.4 cRatio you have:

75 * 1.4 + 25 * 2.4 * 1.15 = 174
instead of
75 * 1.4 + 25 * 2.4 = 165

For a 174/165 = 5.5% increase in melee damage. Scale that back for melee/ws split and getting a 3%-4% increase in total DPS is quite understandable.

And then putting the full set together and getting the (estimated) +5% kick rate from the set bonus:

Tan (+F): 157.273
Tan (-F): 145.044

Compared to where we left Usukane:

Usu (+F): 134.684
Usu (-F): 112.535

A 17% to 29% lead by the Tantra set. Each individual element -- extra kick attacks, higher attack, higher str, etc -- made only a slight (and easily believable) difference in the relative DPS, but there's enough slight differences to add up to a pretty substantial difference.

The gain Usukane made under Focus was for the same reason that the gap was much smaller while eating Pizza, and a similar narrowing of the gap occurs in Abyssea due to perma-capped accuracy. In addition, the relative gains from attack are reduced due to higher base attack, and the gains from the extra kicks are reduced due to the triple attack of the Apocaplyse atma. And of course the gains in crit damage are reduced due to both sets getting the massive crit rate boosts.

So yes, lots of things in Abyssea reduce the relative gap of the two gear sets in comparison to each other, though you'll note that the difference in absolute terms (A-B instead of A/B) is larger in Abyssea.

Notes about the final values for the Tantra set, to show they're similar to what you used:

653 attack
135 str
9% base crit rate

target mob with 420 def and Dia II, for 378 effective def, 7 levels above player

#14lynnminmay, Posted: Feb 05 2011 at 4:34 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I only used +1% crit damage for the augment impetus. Does it also give +attack and +critrate on top of normal impetus ?
#15 Feb 05 2011 at 5:06 AM Rating: Excellent
2,236 posts
The Impetus augment on the body gives +1% crit damage per successive connected hit in addition to the normal +1% crit rate per hit and +2 attack per hit. So the 11th hit in a row would have the bonus of 10 hits behind it, for +10% crit rate, +20 attack, and, with the augment, +10% damage if the hit crits. It caps out at +50% crit damage (reduced, of course, if you have gear or atma that also gives +crit damage, due to the global 50% crit damage cap), similar to the +50% crit rate cap and +100 attack cap the baseline has.

#16lynnminmay, Posted: Feb 05 2011 at 6:19 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Ok I see my mistake : I considered the +attack, the +crit% and the +crit damage more or less independant. So in practice impetus is not just +crit%, att or critdmg% but an average pdif increase. Using this simulation
#17 Feb 06 2011 at 12:34 AM Rating: Excellent
2,626 posts
> for i from 1 to N do
> a:=stats[random,uniform[0,1]](1);
> S:=S+X:
> if a > 0.95 then X:=0:Y:=0.09:Z:=Z+pdif(650+X,378,7)[6]*Y+(1-Y)*pdif(650+X,378,7)[3]:Z_1:=Z_1+pdif(650+X,378,7)[6]*Y*(1+min(X/2,50)/100 )+(1-Y)*pdif(650+X,378,7)[3]: else X:=min(X+2,100):Y:=min(Y+0.01,0.50):Z:=Z+pdif(650+X,378,7)[6]*Y+(1-Y)*pdif(650+X,378,7)[3]:Z_1:=Z_1+pdif(650+X,378,7)[6]*Y*(1+min(X/2,50)/100 )+(1-Y)*pdif(650+X,378,7)[3]: end if;
> end do: S/N;Z/N,Z_1/N,Z_0,(Z_1/N)/(Z/N);

I prefer Kine's way
Taking a break.
#18 Feb 06 2011 at 2:29 AM Rating: Good
2,885 posts
dustinfoley wrote:
Lets not forget the trials:

Usu body +1: clear boss of X salvage 75 times
Usu body +2: clear boss of Y salvage 75 times, and hand in 10k alexandrite ><

Doubt it will be that way. I believe it will be more of the same as we have now except SE is going to force players back into ZNM and have seals for Salvage upgrades drop from them.
Tummie - Garuda/Lakshmi (Retired)

Return1 argued with Mellowy and wrote:

Seriously, you won't be @#%^ing happy until SE releases a full sized Bahamut avatar you can @#%^ing ride and use to kill players that annoy you, one shot AV/PW/Shinryuu, and burn the FFXI nations to the @#%^ing ground for fun. All while actually restoring mp used instead of costing any.

#19 Feb 06 2011 at 8:50 AM Rating: Default
452 posts
Naw the Upgrade will be turn in 25 - level 15 pieces, 50 - level 25 peices and 100 x level 35 pieces and 100,000 alex

Simple boss wins would be too easy
#20 Feb 07 2011 at 9:57 AM Rating: Default
1,270 posts
ImmortalAlchemist wrote:
dustinfoley wrote:
Lets not forget the trials:

Usu body +1: clear boss of X salvage 75 times
Usu body +2: clear boss of Y salvage 75 times, and hand in 10k alexandrite ><

Doubt it will be that way. I believe it will be more of the same as we have now except SE is going to force players back into ZNM and have seals for Salvage upgrades drop from them.

^--- was sarcasim
#21 Feb 07 2011 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good
2,626 posts
I can see ZNM's being a part of upgrading armor, and/or new NM's. I think the focus would still be on 6man being the norm now.

It could be a great chance to bring parts of vanadiel up-to-date taking ppl away from abyssea (not that thats really needed right now imo). Could even add more NM's to existing zones, or up the levels of ones that get killed the least adding drops to them, or add some decent/required drops to synergy nm's.

I doubt ppl really want to go back to taking photo's of mobs for ZNM's, but the new dev team have been excellant at adding/tweaking things that mean you don't have to run through stuff that will take multiple ppl many many hours just to get you a piece of gear. They more than realise its an aging game with a small population compared to years of old, and with many seasoned players they want us to have the max fun / in-game rewards as possible.
Taking a break.
#22 Feb 23 2011 at 12:21 PM Rating: Good
1,423 posts
#23 Feb 23 2011 at 1:15 PM Rating: Good
2,626 posts
Gonna need to expand on that, the link was dead.
Taking a break.
#24 Feb 23 2011 at 1:56 PM Rating: Decent
15 posts
Veggeto wrote:
Well, looking at Byakko's, I'm not impressed so far

Your Link isn't working for me, but I'd assume it's the Byakko's with 6str, acc and -pdt on them. I know you use Victory Smite, and if a pair of 6 str 15 dex pants doesn't impress you for outside abyssea future content, something is wrong with you.
#25 Feb 23 2011 at 2:50 PM Rating: Excellent
20 posts
#26lynnminmay, Posted: Feb 23 2011 at 3:54 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Why would that be impressive ? usukane ? Hachiryu ? Level 75 gear is better yo come on. Anything that's connected with synergy is fail anyway, not surprised.
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