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Lvl 90 Weapon ComparisonsFollow

#102 Jan 16 2011 at 4:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Kinematics wrote:
Fixed March values and added +3 toggle for all spreadsheets. Fixed Bison Steak for nin.

Much appreciated!
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#103 Jan 26 2011 at 12:51 PM Rating: Decent
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So I just started the hecteyes trial for my -def weapon. Any good suggestions on where to camp? Preferably somewhere without a lot of aggro. Thanks
#104 Jan 26 2011 at 4:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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I did mine in the millioneyes area at the bottom of Den of Rancor, by where you spawn Hakutaku. They're spread out enough that there's very little risk of adds. Go mnk/dnc for Healing Waltz and general self-curing (weapon proc will override samba, so you can keep samba up without concern). NPC Fellow assisting as a healer is also a nice bonus.

Only died there when I did manage to get a link and they both started casting heavy nukes on me. Could usually kill one before that happened, though (only happened a handful of times out of several hours down there).

Get some nice money for Fire IV and Flare scrolls, too. Warp back to AH every once in a while to put new ones up, since they're 'rare'.
#105 Jan 28 2011 at 5:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Just redid MKE and went w/ 4 str 15 ws acc 2% ws dmg.

Assuming acc is capped, does 4 str rly beat 2% crit rate (I got the 15 acc anyways cause I like the acc buffer since don't know the evasion of every mob fought), but just stood out to me the spreadsheet was giving 4 str slightly more dmg than 2% crit dmg.
#106 Jan 28 2011 at 6:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Hi all,


First love the spreadsheet, and all work invovled in it. Tremendous Help.

As an obversavation, You have the MNK set as (Hume) and /nin stats

Guessing /war you would have to manually change... not a big deal, where i can see messing numbers up is if someone toggled berserk as /nin.

Also seing as you have Berserk listed, might want to add Warcry and Aggressor


Thanks
#107 Jan 28 2011 at 10:36 PM Rating: Default
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But Warcry does so little there's probably no reason to add it, especially from war sub. Also whatever boost it did give everyone else is benefitting from as well, possibly same justification as Blood Rage (although in BR's case, anyone without a crit WS is not benefitting from it for WS damage). For the War DPS sheet aggressor is an option but since accuracy is assumed to be capped anyway...


Edited, Jan 29th 2011 12:38am by Neisan
#108 Jan 28 2011 at 10:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Veggeto wrote:
Just redid MKE and went w/ 4 str 15 ws acc 2% ws dmg.

Assuming acc is capped, does 4 str rly beat 2% crit rate (I got the 15 acc anyways cause I like the acc buffer since don't know the evasion of every mob fought), but just stood out to me the spreadsheet was giving 4 str slightly more dmg than 2% crit dmg.


Well, it could also go either way, most likely due to WSC rounding. I tossed it in and had the crit damage winning with Loki's and the str winning with Tantra +2, though the difference was only a handful of damage either way. Essentially, it's a wash.
#109 Jan 28 2011 at 11:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Goldnboy wrote:
Hi all,


First love the spreadsheet, and all work invovled in it. Tremendous Help.

As an obversavation, You have the MNK set as (Hume) and /nin stats

Guessing /war you would have to manually change... not a big deal, where i can see messing numbers up is if someone toggled berserk as /nin.

Also seing as you have Berserk listed, might want to add Warcry and Aggressor


Thanks



I haven't bothered trying to get too precise on the base stats since most will be capping out fStr and dDex anyway. It's going to be different for different races and job combos, and people can tweak it to match whatever they have, so not a huge concern. Just make sure to use pre-merit values in the base column.

Warcry isn't getting added because it conflicts with Boost, and Boost is more powerful anyway. If using for general DD instead of for a weaponskill, it's a small and short-lived increase, and you can manually tweak using one of the attack insertion values if you're really that interested in seeing its effect.

I could see adding Blood Rage as an option for the war spreadsheet, but you'd have to be aware that the average of the two sets together, which is based on 3 & 2 minute durations, won't be valid, but rather that you'd be considering each set as completely independent.

Aggressor I'll see about when there's a setup where acc even matters anymore. I haven't messed with anything using the Focus flag in a while. I suppose I can add it in easily enough, though, so may as well.

#110 Jan 28 2011 at 11:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Kinematics wrote:
Veggeto wrote:
Just redid MKE and went w/ 4 str 15 ws acc 2% ws dmg.

Assuming acc is capped, does 4 str rly beat 2% crit rate (I got the 15 acc anyways cause I like the acc buffer since don't know the evasion of every mob fought), but just stood out to me the spreadsheet was giving 4 str slightly more dmg than 2% crit dmg.


Well, it could also go either way, most likely due to WSC rounding. I tossed it in and had the crit damage winning with Loki's and the str winning with Tantra +2, though the difference was only a handful of damage either way. Essentially, it's a wash.


Alright, that works. Will keep 15 ws acc then, may be a day where it comes in useful and it'd no longer be a wash.
#111 Feb 14 2011 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
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Kine, I assume that the spreadsheet doesnt account for counters/PC/retaliation damage and meditate correct? And if so, is there any future plans to add it to the spreadsheets? Perhaps have it where you can click on/off slow/slowII/elegy.

I only ask as I feel this a good amount of damage that perhaps is not being fully factored in the over all results(assuming the sheets dont account for it) and I like tinkering with small details like that on my jobs, if quite enjoyed the sheets you have provided for us and thank you for taking the time to do so for those of us who dont have one of our own or the time to do one. Assuming this is not too much to ask for/of ofcourse.
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#112 Feb 16 2011 at 3:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've been giving it some thought, and while I can kinda sorta see a general view into adding that info, I'm not quite comfortable with the certainty of it yet. Most likely I'll come back to it later. At the moment my 'side projects' on the spreadsheets are drk (still have to add in en-dark) and thf (fun with SA/TA). After those I'll consider adding defensive damage.
#113 Feb 17 2011 at 8:15 AM Rating: Decent
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One question, how does the last Mantis compare against Destroyers? It's the Dmg: +22, delay 55. Wondering if i can just toss Destroyers...
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#114 Feb 17 2011 at 10:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kinematics wrote:
I've been giving it some thought, and while I can kinda sorta see a general view into adding that info, I'm not quite comfortable with the certainty of it yet. Most likely I'll come back to it later. At the moment my 'side projects' on the spreadsheets are drk (still have to add in en-dark) and thf (fun with SA/TA). After those I'll consider adding defensive damage.


Ah fair enough thank you. Question kine, on the spreadsheets is the "ODD" aftermath added on to the emp. weapons already? or is that something we have to think about ourselves when we go for best atma config. ?
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#115 Feb 17 2011 at 11:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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hitoseijuro wrote:
Question kine, on the spreadsheets is the "ODD" aftermath added on to the emp. weapons already? or is that something we have to think about ourselves when we go for best atma config. ?


ODD has to be added manually. You have to adjust the melee damage multiplier. The dual-wield spreadsheets have a separate multiplier for each weapon, while the H2H and 2-handed only have a single value. So for nin, for example, you'd set the mainhand to 1.3 while leaving the offhand at 1.0; for H2H you'd set the overall value to 1.15. You can also raise the value to see the effect of higher TP aftermaths, and can combine it with higher Over-TP rounds to see long-term effect as well.
#116 Feb 17 2011 at 12:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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1.3 would be for 2handed weapons aswell correct?
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#117 Feb 18 2011 at 4:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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#118 Mar 26 2011 at 5:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Just wondered how the lolweapon Magnus Sainti fits into the rankings. Its obviously well behind vere/rev but im using Taipan+2 and although there 19dmg more (21 i guess becasue of ranking), they are 10delay more too. Considering how MNK's dmg is worked out, me being 21dmg & 24att less than what I am now in abys while still capping fSTR seems like a comparible loss to ~50%? double dmg on melee hits.

If the double dmg % is alot less then forget the post. Just shecking Taipan+2 is best option until Victory Smite.





Edited, Mar 27th 2011 6:41am by Sandmasterr
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#119 Mar 27 2011 at 4:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Regarding the Fire Taipans, I can't seem to find any info on the wiki regarding these. All I see are the Taipan Fangs +2 with STR and ATTACK modifiers. Could someone give me a quick rundown how to get the fire taipans?
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#120 Mar 27 2011 at 8:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Magnus Sainti: They'd actually be competitive with lvl 85 weapons (not tops, but easily mid-pack), but fall well behind lvl 90s.

For Fire Taipans, check this wiki page for the various upgrade paths: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Hand-to-Hand_Trials
#121 Mar 28 2011 at 11:09 AM Rating: Good
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So when you say 'Fire Taipans" you are referring to the Taipan Fangs +2 (STR +9 and Attack +20), which are obtained from the fire path of the trial?
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#122 Mar 28 2011 at 11:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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That is correct desabul, people mostly refer to "element of path" Taipans to make it easier. So Thunder Taipans would respectivly be the Taipans with DEX and acc.
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#123 Mar 28 2011 at 1:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I currently am using an Aug Savate Fists. I didn't get a +DMG/+crit yet, the one I have only has +DMG. I also started the trial for the Vere/Rev. Fists. Do you think it would be best to focus on just one trial or go ahead and start the trial for Fire Taipan, since the Vere/Rev. Fists one seems a bit more time consuming? Is the Savate Fists ok to use for now?
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#124 Mar 28 2011 at 1:07 PM Rating: Good
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Can keep trying for good Savate Fists, i got a 22 dmg one with +25% backhand blow (don't have A.Fury WS yet -.-)

Another good choice is Furor Cesti (drops from Ansherekh, tiger NM in abyssea - altepa), pretty easy to get compared to other choices.

Any of those would last you until Vereth/Rev. easily. If you consider to finish one of those I wouldn't bother going through the full Fire Taipan trial series.

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#125 Mar 28 2011 at 7:18 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah i'm seeing more and more (new/bandwagon?) mnk's wearing those cesti. A quick place holder for rev/vere
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#126 Apr 21 2011 at 12:00 PM Rating: Good
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Sandmasterr wrote:
Yeah i'm seeing more and more (new/bandwagon?) mnk's wearing those cesti. A quick place holder for rev/vere


Another use for Furor Cesti regardless of your other options is to gain TP quickly when you're not as concerned with maximizing damage - e.g. cycling through Blue procs quickly, or soloing something /DNC where you're more concerned with maintaining TP than killing fast.

Outside of that niche, I usually use Taurine or Fire Taipan +2s, which are pretty close to each other. Taurine's subtle blow +10 is often helpful and tends to go unnoticed by people just focusing on pure DoT. The big thing the Taipans have going for them is that there will most likely be additional trials for them to improve them more.


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#127 Apr 21 2011 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Anza wrote:
Sandmasterr wrote:
Yeah i'm seeing more and more (new/bandwagon?) mnk's wearing those cesti. A quick place holder for rev/vere


Another use for Furor Cesti regardless of your other options is to gain TP quickly when you're not as concerned with maximizing damage -

That's what ursine claws are for.
#128 Apr 21 2011 at 5:13 PM Rating: Default
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Anza wrote:
Sandmasterr wrote:
Yeah i'm seeing more and more (new/bandwagon?) mnk's wearing those cesti. A quick place holder for rev/vere


Another use for Furor Cesti regardless of your other options is to gain TP quickly when you're not as concerned with maximizing damage - e.g. cycling through Blue procs quickly, or soloing something /DNC where you're more concerned with maintaining TP than killing fast.

Outside of that niche, I usually use Taurine or Fire Taipan +2s, which are pretty close to each other. Taurine's subtle blow +10 is often helpful and tends to go unnoticed by people just focusing on pure DoT. The big thing the Taipans have going for them is that there will most likely be additional trials for them to improve them more.




Pure dot never happens. Or so rarely (NMs ... that you don't proc nor brew ? ). I miss salvage bosses or 7F qiqirns in arrapago or even dumbamis/lamebus zergs.

Edited, Apr 21st 2011 7:14pm by lynnminmay
#129 Apr 21 2011 at 5:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Regarding Savate Fists, what augments are the best to go for? I've got 3 pairs that look pretty decent to me and I'd like to know how you think they stack up. Also, if they are situational, which situations do you think would suit which pair?

1. DMG +4, Crit Rate +1
2. DMG +3, Crit Rate +2
3. Crit Rate +4

Thanks.
#130 Apr 22 2011 at 12:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Veggeto wrote:
Anza wrote:
Sandmasterr wrote:
Yeah i'm seeing more and more (new/bandwagon?) mnk's wearing those cesti. A quick place holder for rev/vere


Another use for Furor Cesti regardless of your other options is to gain TP quickly when you're not as concerned with maximizing damage -

That's what ursine claws are for.


Furor Cesti are a very common drop from an easy NM. Ursine Claws require a lot of time to go through the trials.

If you already have Ursine, great. If not, for the decidedly niche use I wouldn't bother taking the time to upgrade OA-whatever Ursines.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2011 3:21pm by Anza
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#131 Apr 22 2011 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Anza wrote:
Veggeto wrote:
Anza wrote:
Sandmasterr wrote:
Yeah i'm seeing more and more (new/bandwagon?) mnk's wearing those cesti. A quick place holder for rev/vere


Another use for Furor Cesti regardless of your other options is to gain TP quickly when you're not as concerned with maximizing damage -

That's what ursine claws are for.


Furor Cesti are a very common drop from an easy NM. Ursine Claws require a lot of time to go through the trials.

If you already have Ursine, great. If not, for the decidedly niche use I wouldn't bother taking the time to upgrade OA-whatever Ursines.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2011 3:21pm by Anza

Because you do not want to invest time does not make Furor useful.
#132 Apr 22 2011 at 1:57 PM Rating: Decent
How do the level 80 vereth compare to the fire taipans +2 with the high end setup
#133lynnminmay, Posted: Apr 23 2011 at 3:00 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Level 80 vere is slightly worse than furor cesti. So I guess fire taipan are better.
#134 Apr 23 2011 at 7:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Because you do not want to invest time does not make Furor useful.

Wrong. Actually the opposite is true. Because he doesn't want to invest time for Ursine, it actually makes Furor useful to him as an alternative. If he did invest time for Ursines, he would have no need for another TP weapon, making Furor useless.
#135 Apr 23 2011 at 4:04 PM Rating: Decent
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xxPhyrexx wrote:
Quote:
Because you do not want to invest time does not make Furor useful.

Wrong. Actually the opposite is true. Because he doesn't want to invest time for Ursine, it actually makes Furor useful to him as an alternative. If he did invest time for Ursines, he would have no need for another TP weapon, making Furor useless.

Ok, they're useful if you want to be inferior.
#136 Apr 24 2011 at 3:01 AM Rating: Default
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Veggeto wrote:
xxPhyrexx wrote:
Quote:
Because you do not want to invest time does not make Furor useful.

Wrong. Actually the opposite is true. Because he doesn't want to invest time for Ursine, it actually makes Furor useful to him as an alternative. If he did invest time for Ursines, he would have no need for another TP weapon, making Furor useless.

Ok, they're useful if you want to be inferior.


That's dumb. Until you have level 90 you are inferior. Ursine is nothing else than a waste of time, you could build a large part of vere while you do the retarded trials.
#137 Apr 24 2011 at 8:42 AM Rating: Decent
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or you could just have both
#138 Apr 24 2011 at 2:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Ok, they're useful if you want to be inferior.

Exactly.

Of course, another, less demeaning, and less elitist way of saying it, would be to say: "they are useful if you don't want to spend the time on Ursines." Of course, if you're an elitist, it sounds ridiculous to give anything value if it's not the best for it's purpose... but different people value their time differently.

I don't have the Ursine trials completed. In comparison to someone who has Ursines, am I an inferior choice for procing blue? Yes. But do I still proc blue and get the job done? Yes.

Now, we could get in to semantics as well. How many times do you, and will you proc blue purposefully over the course of your entire FF life. A few hundred times? I honestly have a hard time even making a guess. But let me just get to the point. If it takes you 60 seconds longer to proc blue because you have an inferior TP building weapon, how many hours will that be over the course of your FF life? A few hundred times 60 seconds. Now, how many hours did/will you spend on the superior weapon for just that purpose?

You obviously don't have to come up with specific numbers. The purpose of that last paragraph is to give you an idea of cost-benefit. If you are spending time to conserve time later, is it actually worth it? For some yes, for others no. Right?

Quote:
That's dumb. Until you have level 90 you are inferior. Ursine is nothing else than a waste of time, you could build a large part of vere while you do the retarded trials.

You're wrong too. A waste of time is a matter of perspective in this situation. Most people would agree that the purpose of playing FFXI is to have fun. If someone is having fun doing "retarded trials," no matter how ridiculous that sounds, it's not a waste of time to them.

Quote:
or you could just have both

Right. If you already have Vere, or you've done what you can do on your own, or you just want something else to do to better your character, the Ursine Claws can be useful for at least the one purpose of TP building. Along that same logic, dual wielding a k-club and an octave club would be faster for the purposes of TP building. So actually, what you should be doing is using those 2 clubs to find blue hint, then staying with them if it's club, swapping to Ursine if it's h2h, and swapping to [insert fastest TP building staff here] if it's staff.

So also to follow that same logic, if you don't have all those weapons, or you aren't working for those weapons, you are also choosing to be inferior.
#139lynnminmay, Posted: Apr 24 2011 at 6:04 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Weapon A is superior to weapon B because it's faster to proc blu, you heard it here first. Also people are wrong on the internet it seems. If you have fun doing fire trial good for you. What is being discussed is wether it is worth investing 50 hours building a weapon (fire taipan +2, totally eyeballing) for a weapon that is a few percent a head of taurine, instead of taking 10' to kill a weak NM an dspend those 50 hours building half od a vere ( with 50 ingame hours you could get level 80 + a decent part of the level 85 vere).
#140 Apr 24 2011 at 10:35 PM Rating: Good
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Veggeto wrote:
Because you do not want to invest time does not make Furor useful.


I have Taurine Cesti and Fire Taipan +2, which are both better than Furor OR Ursine for any meaningful DD situation. Since I already have those, I'm not going to waste time doing Ursine trials for such an overly situational piece. Since I happened to get the drop for Furor while killing the NM anyway, sure, I might put them on for the minor benefit in TP gain speed when I'm trying to cycle blue WS. But really, it's not a make or break issue, and if I didn't have Furor I wouldn't care. Would Ursine do better in that not-really-that-important situation? Sure. Is it worth grinding trials over? Not to me.

If I was going to spend time grinding more trials, I'd certainly invest that time into Vereth/Rev instead of Ursine. If you already HAVE Ursine, great, go ahead and use it. But they simply aren't good enough to warrant telling people to go out and do the trials for them unless you just want an option for every obscure situation.


Edited, Apr 25th 2011 12:36am by Anza
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#141 Apr 25 2011 at 12:36 AM Rating: Decent
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It really doesn't matter what you do. The point was more that Furor are not useful, more than to go out and do Ursine.

Edit: also, why gimp damage. Are you even ws'ing faster? w/ Furor vs Taurine? (if so, how marginal?) You lose 18 delay and pick up 1 extra hit to 100 tp.

When it comes to ursine, you're actually seeing a worthwhile gain for in TP gain for the damage you're losing.

Edited, Apr 25th 2011 2:40am by Veggeto
#142 Apr 25 2011 at 4:48 AM Rating: Decent
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When it comes to ursine, you're actually seeing a worthwhile gain for in TP gain for the damage you're losing.

When does this gain become apparent? Right now I'm on... hrm I think it's Trial 1144: 450 Imps. Killing the imps with the current weapon is incredibly slow. I've killed a lil over 50 imps so far in Abyssea - Konschat using Footwork but it really feels like a grind. If I didn't have so many traverser stones (a lil over 300), I'd probably have to give up on the trial.

Am I right to use Footwork instead of normal H2H?
#143 Apr 25 2011 at 4:58 PM Rating: Good
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Veggeto wrote:
It really doesn't matter what you do. The point was more that Furor are not useful, more than to go out and do Ursine.


Well then why are you saying "you could just have both"? Furor are painfully easy to get, Ursine are a pain in the ass. Both are easily inferior to the actual good DD options (Vereth/Rev/Fire+2/Taurine), but both Furor/Ursine might perform better than those superior DD choices for a very specific task that you might run into sometimes.

For a very niche use, I can justify using an easy single drop that most MNKs will end up with anyway just as a rot drop from doing other things anyway (getting Tiger King Hides for Amarok pops, a reasonably common situation). I can't justify going through many time consuming trials to get an weapon that I readily admit is even better for that niche use, simply because it is a fairly limited use. Simple cost/benefit analysis here.

Quote:
Edit: also, why gimp damage. Are you even ws'ing faster? w/ Furor vs Taurine? (if so, how marginal?) You lose 18 delay and pick up 1 extra hit to 100 tp.


Because damage isn't always everything? My damage output while working on procs on an Abyssea NM is not the point. Once we get all the weaknesses we need, we have no issue killing the NM very quickly. If I'm gearing to do the most damage, I will be using my better DD weapons.

Also, I'm not sure about that picking up 1 extra hit, since you're not factoring in Regain (which really messes with x-hit builds). I tend to have 3tp/tic regain when I'm in Abyssea LS events and I care about procs - Moonshade Earring, and I'll usually use VV in that setting (more for charging TP for staff/club than anything, or for tp gain while idling or moving to the next NM). If I was gearing for pure DD I'd go GH/RR/Apoc, but I'm not always going for maximum DoT.

Edited, Apr 25th 2011 7:10pm by Anza
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