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Lvl 90 Weapon ComparisonsFollow

#27 Dec 17 2010 at 2:26 AM Rating: Decent
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One question Kine:

Would the ranking of the weapons alter much outside of abyssea? As an example would Revenant+2 drop down below other h2h weapons it is in front of now because of no RR atma etc.?

I know the total dmg output would decreese, just wondering about their position to each other. Would be nice to know when fighting NMs outside of god-mode.

Edited, Dec 17th 2010 3:26am by crasyk
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#28 Dec 17 2010 at 5:35 PM Rating: Good
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crasyk wrote:
One question Kine:

Would the ranking of the weapons alter much outside of abyssea? As an example would Revenant+2 drop down below other h2h weapons it is in front of now because of no RR atma etc.?

I know the total dmg output would decreese, just wondering about their position to each other. Would be nice to know when fighting NMs outside of god-mode.

Kine already answered that at the top of the page btw...


Kine wrote:
High end setup, no atma. Since we have no atma it's outside Abyssea, so no cruor buffs either.

Including the (conservative) -10 MA delay for AF3+2 body.

Added Boost back in, as well as Focus. Swapped in Kemas and Toreador for TP when Focus was down, as well as Alky's and Kemas on WS, in order to get above acc cap.


Destroyers 124.270
Taipan +1 (no mods, old baseline) 129.538
Furor Cesti 133.029
Taipan +2 (no mods, new baseline) 133.545
Barracudas +2 (15 STP) 134.252
Barracudas +2 (WS Dmg) 134.272
Ursine +2 (OAT/high damage) 136.622
Taipan +2 (def down, 30% active) 137.201
Taurine Cesti 138.025
Taipan +2 (fire) 138.444
Revenant +2 w/Asuran 138.471
Revenant +2 w/V.Smite 145.488
Spharai (90) 163.419
Verethragna (90) 183.739


Edited, Dec 17th 2010 11:37pm by hitoseijuro
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#29 Dec 17 2010 at 5:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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For most, the relative rankings won't shift much. There will be some shuffling due to the relative value of the weapon stats (eg: str Taipans lose some value in Abyssea since you're generally capped on fStr, while the def down drop significantly in value when you're capping attack from Stalwart's Drinks and various buffs), but rarely will there be a significant reordering.
#30 Dec 17 2010 at 9:51 PM Rating: Decent
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is 2-3 h2h faster tp gain w/ or w/o footwork? Trying to see what's best to use when going for blue !! on h2h
#31 Dec 17 2010 at 10:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Should take about 20 seconds with Footwork (gear haste only) and 23 seconds with standard melee, so a bit faster with Footwork (only counting time between weaponskills, and ignoring over-TP). Also give a lot less TP with Footwork, so would likely recommend that just to cut down on TP move interference.
#32 Dec 18 2010 at 5:45 AM Rating: Good
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Sorry I didn't see that, thanks for all the great work =)
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#33 Dec 19 2010 at 1:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Thanks for all the awesome info!

Do you have any idea where Heofon would fall in the general picture here? I'm working toward Revenants but planning on using those as an interim weapon once I can get them to drop. Is there another easily obtainable H2H that was added in the recent update that you'd suggest by eyeballing? Been stupidly busy with work the past couple months so I haven't had much of a chance to keep up on things :\
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#34 Dec 19 2010 at 6:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Went out and did 1k attacks on atma of apocalypse tonight.


parse came up really weird though. I have the saved parse if you want to play around with it and see why I was getting these results.

Used a single dagger on dnc/nin, the triple attack rounds would overlap into the next round so would look like 4 swings in a row. No DA or TA gear was used, etc.

Melee Data 
 
Player               # Melee Attacks    # Melee Rounds    Attacks/Round    # Extra Attacks 
Tigerwoods                      1147               774                1                373 
 
Player               # +1 Rounds   # +2 Rounds   # +3 Rounds   # +4 Rounds    # >+4 Rounds 
Tigerwoods                    36            30            59             5              12 
 
Player               # MultiAttack Rounds    MultiAttack %     Kills w/Min Attacks    Kills w/<Min Attacks 
Tigerwoods                            142          18.56 %                       9                       0 
 
 
Treat As: 
 
Multi-attacks per attack (2x/3x): 
 
Player               # Double Attacks    DA Rate    Perc. DA     # Triple Attacks    TA Rate    Perc. TA 
Tigerwoods                         36     4.71 %     54.55 %                   30     3.92 %     45.45 % 
 
Multi-attacks per round (Kicks): 
 
Player               Footwork?    # Rounds w/Kicks    Kick Attack Rate 
Tigerwoods                 Yes                  36              5.46 % 
 
Multi-attacks per attack (Zanshin): 
 
Player               # Missed First Attacks    # DA w/Missed First   Possible Zanshin % 
Tigerwoods                               54                      1               1.85 % 
 
Player               Acc. Rate of First Attacks    Acc. Rate of Second Attacks 
Tigerwoods                              93.02 %                       100.00 % 
 
 
 



Edit:
http://www.mediafire.com/?8b2t5ghqpqow6ii

Edited, Dec 19th 2010 7:13am by Veggeto
#35lynnminmay, Posted: Dec 19 2010 at 11:46 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) assuming the extra attacks with more than 3 attacks per round comme from 2 consecutive rounds being fusionned into one, one can assume that it's unlikely that those are 1 DA followed by one TA. At first we can also approximate that the DA are independant of TA. The 76 mistake rounds are actualy 76*2 rounds so the total # of rounds is 76+774=850. Call x the da rate and y the ta rate, then we have approximately
#36 Dec 19 2010 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
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It's only TA. no DA on that atma.
#37 Dec 19 2010 at 11:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Did another w/ a slower wep (dagger to club), but I don't know how countering (wwas on mnk skilling club instead of dnc this time) and getting countered ( fighting mandies for better skill ups from counters) will show up on here

Melee Data 
 
Player               # Melee Attacks    # Melee Rounds    Attacks/Round    # Extra Attacks 
Tigerwoods                       819               614                1                205 
 
Player               # +1 Rounds   # +2 Rounds   # +3 Rounds   # +4 Rounds    # >+4 Rounds 
Tigerwoods                    14            74            13             1               0 
 
Player               # MultiAttack Rounds    MultiAttack %     Kills w/Min Attacks    Kills w/<Min Attacks 
Tigerwoods                            102          16.64 %                       1                       0 
 
 
Treat As: 
 
Multi-attacks per attack (2x/3x): 
 
Player               # Double Attacks    DA Rate    Perc. DA     # Triple Attacks    TA Rate    Perc. TA 
Tigerwoods                         14     2.28 %     15.91 %                   74    12.07 %     84.09 % 
 
Multi-attacks per round (Kicks): 
 
Player               Footwork?    # Rounds w/Kicks    Kick Attack Rate 
Tigerwoods                 Yes                  14              2.67 % 
 
Multi-attacks per attack (Zanshin): 
 
Player               # Missed First Attacks    # DA w/Missed First   Possible Zanshin % 
Tigerwoods                               48                      2               4.17 % 
 
Player               Acc. Rate of First Attacks    Acc. Rate of Second Attacks 
Tigerwoods                              92.18 %                        50.00 % 
 
 
 


Edited, Dec 19th 2010 1:00pm by Veggeto
#38lynnminmay, Posted: Dec 19 2010 at 1:05 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Oh. Well then it's much simpler, the +1,+3,+4 etc come from a duplicated round so there are 886 rounds instead of the appreant 774 and 30+36+76=142 TA'd round so 142/886=16% TA rounds. Confirmed by the second data. so I guess 15% TA.
#39 Dec 20 2010 at 7:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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So, 15% Triple Attack rate. Filling that in to see how it compares with other atma combinations. Obviously the auto-reraise and quick cast bits are pretty spiffy in and of themselves, but for pure damage....

It seems I had a bad formulation in one of the consolidating cells for number of attacks per round after incorporating triple attack. Adding AoA was only adding like 7 DPS. Going back and fixing it all up, AoA is significantly more powerful, but I should probably start from the top to be sure it didn't ***** up the other comparisons.

Mid-range gear

TP set:

Fire Taipan +2 // Thew
Tantra+1/Agasaya/Brutal/Aesir
Tantra+1/Tantra+1/Rajas/Excelsis
Forager/Black/Tantra+2/Tantra+1

WS set:

Fire Taipan +2 // Thew
Shura/Gorget/Brutal/Kemas
Tantra+1/Heafoc/Rajas/Spiral
Forager/Anguinus/Usukane/Tantra+1

Haste spell only; Bison steak; +40 cruor buffs; lvl 97 target; Impetus included

Atma list:

RR = Razed Ruin
GH = Gnarled Horn
DD = Dark Depths
SA = Strong Arm
VV = Voracious Violet
SS = Sanguine Scythe
AoA = Atma of the Apocolypse
A/O = Alpha and Omega (caveat: this was still set at 10%; revising to 5% and will edit this post)


No atma (Asuran): 108.805

Single atma:

RR (Ascetic's): 161.414
GH/DD (Asuran): 119.034
SA (Asuran): 123.333
VV (Asuran): 123.285
SS (Asuran): 115.810
AoA (Asuran): 131.742
A/O (Asuran): 134.882 (126.583 @5%)

First atma to RR, weaponskill of Ascetic's.

Second atma:

GH/DD: 183.246
SA: 178.092
VV: 182.898
SS: 181.865
AoA: 208.176
A/O: 203.901 (187.171 @5%)


Second atma to AoA. DD removed from further options as it's secondary to GH.

Third atma:

GH: 235.786
SA: 230.286
VV: 232.108
SS: 234.681
A/O: 254.974 (237.656 @5%)


So the best damage combination of three atma would be RR, AoA, and A/O. Lacking AoA, A/O is your best second option. Third atma with RR+A/O when you don't have AoA:

GH: 230.050
SA: 224.378
VV: 227.875
SS: 229.656

@5% TA on A/O:
GH: 211.481
SA: 205.786
VV: 210.524
SS: 210.741

So GH as the third option with RR+A/O, though SS does almost exactly as well and you can choose between agi+counter and hp as the secondary benefit.

At 5% TA for A/O, any of GH, VV and SS work as the third option, so pick according to the secondary benefits you want.


Edited, Dec 20th 2010 7:29pm by Kinematics
#40 Dec 20 2010 at 9:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Almost no point in using A/O then with it's very slight increase and negative HP as compared to defensive stats of GH or SS.

Are you planning to do high end build w/ smite (and if so was going to ask for RR GH SS to see how far going defensive is behind offensively, but I'd assume your old numbers for Max crit damage: RR+GH+Sanguine Scythe
Taipans: 228.753
Revenants: 277.303 would still aplly)


Edit:

Crit dmg not capped anymore off SS. Time to get Loki? How'd it do for fstr capped tp and vs osode for smite? (assuming 74% crit rate)

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 1:49am by Veggeto
#41 Dec 21 2010 at 1:40 AM Rating: Good
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would it be possible to easily add backhand blow to the spreadsheet? i don't have fury yet so thats what i'll probably be using now that i got RR.

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 2:42am by moffatt
#42 Dec 21 2010 at 3:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Interestingly enough, Backhand Blow is already in the spreadsheet.

I'd picked it at random one time when I wanted a low damage weaponskill to use up TP but not kill the mob too fast, and did 1300+ damage. Looked at the mods and realized it was a mini-Ascetic's Fury, but with dex mod instead of vit (so can better take advantage of RR atma). Unfortunately 30%/30% is far enough away from 50%/50% that it ended up being right on par with Asuran Fists for average damage, so I didn't bother bringing it up here.


Veggeto wrote:
Crit dmg not capped anymore off SS. Time to get Loki? How'd it do for fstr capped tp and vs osode for smite? (assuming 74% crit rate)


I apparently missed this. Crit damage bonus not capped at 50% anymore?

Anyway, will redo the above numbers using Revenants with Victory Smite.

#43 Dec 21 2010 at 3:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Same conditions as above post. Repeating here.

Mid-range gear

TP set:

Revenants+2 // Thew
Tantra+1/Agasaya/Brutal/Aesir
Tantra+1/Tantra+1/Rajas/Excelsis
Forager/Black/Tantra+2/Tantra+1

WS set:

Revenants+2 // Thew
Shura/Gorget/Brutal/Kemas
Tantra+1/Heafoc/Rajas/Spiral
Forager/Anguinus/Usukane/Tantra+1

Haste spell only; Bison steak; +40 cruor buffs; lvl 97 target; Impetus included

Atma list:

RR = Razed Ruin
GH = Gnarled Horn
DD = Dark Depths
SA = Strong Arm
VV = Voracious Violet
SS = Sanguine Scythe
AoA = Atma of the Apocolypse
A/O = Alpha and Omega (5% TA rate)


No atma (Asuran): 107.497
No atma (Smite): 116.314

Single atma:

RR: 195.546
GH/DD: 132.659
SA: 134.710
VV: 137.761
SS: 128.836
AoA: 146.118
A/O: 136.585

First atma to RR.

Second atma:

GH/DD: 223.149
SA: 220.349
VV: 229.555
SS: 220.647 (228.348 if uncapped)
AoA: 245.793
A/O: 224.971


Second atma to AoA. DD removed from further options as it's secondary to GH.

Third atma:

GH: 279.967
SA: 277.363
VV: 283.945
SS: 277.467 (286.895 if uncapped)
A/O: 278.769


So the best damage combination of three atma would be RR, AoA, and VV.

Lacking AoA, VV is second best option. Third atma combined with RR+VV:

GH: 260.676
SA: 258.265
SS: 259.133 (267.289 if uncapped)
A/O: 262.212

Very close, though SS pulls well ahead if crit damage is now uncapped.


Also, RR+GH+SS: 255.574 (265.668 if uncapped), so very close to the top damage atma, not counting Apocolypse.



Edited, Jan 5th 2011 11:44am by Kinematics
#44 Dec 21 2010 at 4:09 AM Rating: Good
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Where does Atma of Roaring Laughter fit in? STR+: Major(+50 str), Evasion-: Major, Counter+: Major



Edited, Dec 21st 2010 5:23am by Bresss
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#45 Dec 21 2010 at 9:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Kinematics wrote:
Interestingly enough, Backhand Blow is already in the spreadsheet.

I'd picked it at random one time when I wanted a low damage weaponskill to use up TP but not kill the mob too fast, and did 1300+ damage. Looked at the mods and realized it was a mini-Ascetic's Fury, but with dex mod instead of vit (so can better take advantage of RR atma). Unfortunately 30%/30% is far enough away from 50%/50% that it ended up being right on par with Asuran Fists for average damage, so I didn't bother bringing it up here.


Veggeto wrote:
Crit dmg not capped anymore off SS. Time to get Loki? How'd it do for fstr capped tp and vs osode for smite? (assuming 74% crit rate)


I apparently missed this. Crit damage bonus not capped at 50% anymore?

Anyway, will redo the above numbers using Revenants with Victory Smite.




no no no, sorry. I worded that ****** up. I mean with sanguine scythe off (since no longer best to be using it), going with RR, GH, AoA, you're no longer hitting the 50% cap, since you're now only at 30% of RR
#46 Dec 22 2010 at 5:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Kine,

How do level 90 relic/mythic weaps math out in comparison now that there is 25% dmg added on relic ws, 15% dmg added on mythic ws?
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#47 Dec 22 2010 at 3:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Veggeto:

With Victory Smite, Tantra +2 wins when not capped on attack, Loki wins (small lead) on capped attack but no Impetus, and Tantra +2 wins with capped attack and augmented Impetus. Vs some body other than Tantra +2, Loki is at least in the running, though I haven't done a full breakdown yet.

Palides: I'd need references to see what exactly has changed before I can make any estimates there.
#48 Dec 22 2010 at 3:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Kinematics wrote:
Palides: I'd need references to see what exactly has changed before I can make any estimates there.


http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/90723-Relic-Augments?p=4317458&viewfull=1#post4317458

Relic ws gets 25% dmg increase.

Mythic ws gets 15% dmg increase.

Both when using the weapon only, obviously.
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#49 Dec 23 2010 at 1:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, as this is a bonus *only* to the relic weaponskills themselves, it's a matter of seeing how well Final Heaven would improve with this. If it can beat Asuran (for Spharai), it's a gain at least outside Abyssea. Glanzfaust would be using Ascetic's anyway, so is just bonus damage inside Abyssea now.


Final Heaven:

fTP (default): 3.0
new fTP: 3.7

WSC: 60% Vit

Added a sheet for this on the spreadsheet. Ascetic's still completely blows it away inside Abyssea. Checking outside Abyssea. A few gear swaps to improve things, and I'm ending up with 1064 for Final Heaven vs 1254 for Asuran Fists.

So even with the improved fTP, Asuran still handily outdoes it outside Abyssea, and inside, where you could potentially get better mods, Ascetic's stomps on both. The top-end RR+GH+AoA only increases Final Heaven to 1373 damage, while Ascetic's would push well past 2000.


Also, the 3.7 fTP mod is only about +15% for Spharai rather than +25% because it's effectively a 2-hit weaponskill.

#50 Dec 23 2010 at 3:22 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Third atma:

GH: 279.967
SA: 277.363
VV: 283.945
SS: 277.467 (286.895 if uncapped)
A/O: 278.769


So the best damage combination of three atma would be RR, AoA, and A/O.

Should A/O read 288.769 here?
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#51 Dec 23 2010 at 7:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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No, the numbers are correct, but my summary failed. Should be VV as best third atma.
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