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Lvl 90 Weapon ComparisonsFollow

#1 Dec 09 2010 at 7:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Conditions for this set of DPS values:

Hume Mnk/Nin
Level 90
Str 87+5
Vit 85
Dex 84
(need confirmation on the base stat values for hume)
Skill: 361 + 16 merits.

Target (revised base stats, assuming 'average' target):
Level 97
Vit 91 (rank D)
Agi 106 (rank C)
Defense: 375 + vit/2 = 420 (rank C), 378 w/Dia II
Evasion: 407 (extended from observations at 85)


Impetus used. Att bonus figured from accuracy. Crit rate assumed to be +1% per hit, and half the average attack value as a percent.

Only haste buff is the Haste spell for all cases.


Weapon Selection:

Destroyers (for reference)
Taipan +1 (no mods, old baseline)
Taipan +2 (no mods, new baseline)
Barracudas +2 (WS Dmg)
Barracudas +2 (15 STP)
Ursine +2 (OAT/high damage)
Furor Cesti
Taurine Cesti
Taipan +2 (fire)
Taipan +2 (def down)
Revenant +2
Verethragna (90)
Spharai (90)



Edited, Dec 9th 2010 7:35pm by Kinematics
#2 Dec 09 2010 at 7:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Low end reference gear

Assuming 1 Furtherance Abyssite (purchased) for +20 to base stats (no Martello bonuses)
Food: Pizza
Atma: Stout Arm (1 atma)
Weaponskill: Asuran Fists

TP:
weapon // Thew Bomblet
Turban/C.Chain/Brutal/Coral
Aurore/Aurore/Rajas/Sniper
Amemet+1/Brown/Aurore/Fumas

WS:
weapon // Thew
Shura/Gorget/Coral/Coral
Aurore/OKote/Rajas/Ruby
Amemet+1/Warwolf/Aurore/Denali


Destroyers                           97.845 
Taipan +1 (no mods, old baseline)   102.353 
Furor Cesti                         105.211 
Taipan +2 (no mods, new baseline)   105.697 
Barracudas +2 (WS Dmg)              106.446 
Barracudas +2 (15 STP)              107.995 
Taurine Cesti                       109.210 
Taipan +2 (fire)                    109.500 
Taipan +2 (def down, 30% active)    109.771 
Ursine +2 (OAT/high damage)         112.297

#3 Dec 09 2010 at 7:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mid-grade reference gear

Assuming 3 Furtherance Abyssites (1 quest, 1 purchased, 1 NM) for +40 to base stats (no Martello bonuses)
Food: Bison Steak
Atma: RR + GH (to avoid variability with VV)
Weaponskill: Ascetic's Fury

TP:
weapon // Thew
Tantra+1/Agasaya/Brutal/Aesir
Shura/Tantra+1/Rajas/Excelsis
Forager/Black/Tantra+1/Tantra+1

WS:
weapon // Thew
Shura/Gorget/Brutal/Kemas
Osode/Alky/Rajas/Spiral
Forager/Warwolf|Anguinus/Usu/Tantra+1

Alternates are with/without Impetus.


Destroyers                          178.060 
Taipan +1 (no mods, old baseline)   182.730 
Taipan +2 (no mods, new baseline)   187.804 
Barracudas +2 (WS Dmg)              187.747 
Barracudas +2 (15 STP)              188.306 
Furor Cesti                         188.842 
Taipan +2 (def down, 30% active)    192.376 
Taipan +2 (fire)                    193.528 
Taurine Cesti                       193.971 
Revenant +2 w/A.Fury                194.304 
Ursine +2 (OAT/high damage)         196.928 
Spharai (90)                        227.142 
Revenant +2 w/V.Smite               234.515 
Verethragna (90)                    295.990

#4 Dec 09 2010 at 7:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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High end reference gear:

Food: Red Curry Bun
Assuming 3 Furtherance Abyssites for +40 to base stats (no Martello bonuses)
Atma: RR + GH + VV (until Triple Attack is implemented and new atma details are nailed down)
Weaponskill: Ascetic's Fury

Triple Attack not yet accounted for. Faking Epona's TA by making it a +9% DA ring.

TP:
weapon // Thew Bomblet|Tantra Tathlum
Tantra+2/Faith/Brutal/Aesir
Tantra+2/Tantra+2/Rajas/Epona
Cerb+1/Black/Tantra+2/Tantra+2

Unknown set bonus not accounted for

WS:
weapon // Tantra|Thew
MKE/Gorget/Brutal/Kemas
Tantra+2/Heafoc/Rajas/Epona
Cerb+1/Anguinus/Usu/Tantra+2

Boost not used for weaponskills.
MKE: 4 str, 15 ws.acc, 2% ws.dmg



Destroyers                          245.406 
Taipan +1 (no mods, old baseline)   251.139 
Taipan +2 (no mods, new baseline)   257.716 
Taipan +2 (def down, 30% active)    258.077 
Barracudas +2 (WS Dmg)              259.175 
Barracudas +2 (15 STP)              259.161 
Furor Cesti                         260.398 
Ursine +2 (OAT/high damage)         257.104 
Taipan +2 (fire)                    262.787 
Taurine Cesti                       266.090 
Revenant +2 w/A.Fury                266.245 
Spharai (90)                        304.109 
Revenant +2 w/V.Smite               327.825 
Verethragna (90)                    406.036


Edit: Didn't account for +MA trait from body; figure ~2.6% gain for most of them from -10 delay.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 7:40pm by Kinematics
#5 Dec 09 2010 at 11:11 PM Rating: Decent
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You are a credit to people. Not any specific type, all people.

My question to you! Is there any information you might have on the OA2-3 or OA2-4? I'm not able to do the +DMG as much as I want to >.<
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#6 Dec 10 2010 at 12:11 AM Rating: Good
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I'm guessin the OAT2-4 must gurentee Double kick rate.

Still amazing how much Vere and Rev pull ahead. I have this nagging feeling SE wil make Abyssea obselete in the rise to 99 (which is why imo they give players such unrealistic boosts via atma's). What would be the DMG on your comparisons is no atma was attached?

Just wondering as SE will needsomting else in the run to 99, as abyss mobs already EP at 88-90 (although thqat doesnt really matter, just slows down the run to max exp gain). I'd like to see a quick comparison of High end gear with no atma's.
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#7 Dec 10 2010 at 2:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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There's absolutely no OA2-4 info out yet, so I can't make any estimations based on that.

High end setup, no atma. Since we have no atma it's outside Abyssea, so no cruor buffs either.

Including the (conservative) -10 MA delay for AF3+2 body.

Added Boost back in, as well as Focus. Swapped in Kemas and Toreador for TP when Focus was down, as well as Alky's and Kemas on WS, in order to get above acc cap.

Destroyers                          124.270 
Taipan +1 (no mods, old baseline)   129.538 
Furor Cesti                         133.029 
Taipan +2 (no mods, new baseline)   133.545 
Barracudas +2 (15 STP)              134.252 
Barracudas +2 (WS Dmg)              134.272 
Ursine +2 (OAT/high damage)         136.622 
Taipan +2 (def down, 30% active)    137.201 
Taurine Cesti                       138.025 
Taipan +2 (fire)                    138.444 
Revenant +2 w/Asuran                138.471 
Revenant +2 w/V.Smite               145.488 
Spharai (90)                        163.419 
Verethragna (90)                    183.739
#8 Dec 10 2010 at 7:06 AM Rating: Decent
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How do you want me to test the Alpha omega? I can use staff?
#9 Dec 10 2010 at 9:35 AM Rating: Decent
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DD (crit major) seems to be 20%. Doesn't seem to be a cap from atma as someone w/ all 3 crit+ ones got 94% and getting 74% w/ RR + GH and RR + DD.


How's another 20% crit come vs VV?

Edit: nvm forgot about impetus.

Edited, Dec 10th 2010 11:24am by Veggeto
#10 Dec 10 2010 at 9:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Looks like we will have a ton of new atma options to test out. Also going to have to try out triple attack atma while using footwork see what that does. There are also a ton of store TP major atmas that would also work with footwork which might be interesting. Might be able to get to 4 hit.

Also that one with +50 attack and triple attack+10
#11 Dec 10 2010 at 1:06 PM Rating: Decent
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9 coins away, what are gear sets/alternatives for Victory Smite?
#12 Dec 10 2010 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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Melee Data 
 
Player               # Melee Attacks    # Melee Rounds    Attacks/Round    # Extra Attacks 
Radec                            122                68                1                 54 
 
Player               # +1 Rounds   # +2 Rounds   # +3 Rounds   # +4 Rounds    # >+4 Rounds 
Radec                         54             0             0             0               0 
 
Player               # MultiAttack Rounds    MultiAttack %     Kills w/Min Attacks    Kills w/<Min Attacks 
Radec                                  54          81.82 %                       2                       0 
 
 
Treat As: 
 
Multi-attacks per attack (2x/3x): 
 
Player               # Double Attacks    DA Rate    Perc. DA     # Triple Attacks    TA Rate    Perc. TA 
Radec                              54    81.82 %    100.00 %                    0     0.00 %      0.00 % 
 
Multi-attacks per round (Kicks): 
 
Player               Footwork?    # Rounds w/Kicks    Kick Attack Rate 
Radec                      Yes                  54             81.82 % 
 
Multi-attacks per attack (Zanshin): 
 
Player               # Missed First Attacks    # DA w/Missed First   Possible Zanshin % 
Radec                                     7                      6              85.71 % 
 
Player               Acc. Rate of First Attacks    Acc. Rate of Second Attacks 
Radec                                   89.71 %                       100.00 % 
 
 
 


Oa4 H2H, naked aside from them and gaiters. Can work on more samples after campaign pops somewhere with a fort to beat on. Dissapointed it isn't 100%.

This was done on 3 fortilaces, fresh footwork each time.

Edit: More details: /dnc, 5/5 Kick merits

Edited, Dec 10th 2010 12:48pm by Radecx
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#13 Dec 10 2010 at 3:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Veggeto wrote:
How do you want me to test the Alpha omega? I can use staff?


Yes, a staff would work great. Make sure you're not wearing any other +DA gear and there should be no problems parsing it.

Veggeto wrote:
9 coins away, what are gear sets/alternatives for Victory Smite?


Smite is similar to Fury, but without Vit as a backup stat.

Possible shifts:
Black Belt instead of Anguinus, even when not capped on attack. (more base hits means the +DA has less value)
If capped on attack (eg: Boost+Stalwart's), Juogi+1 = Loki's > Juogi => Tantra+2 > Osode > Usu = Tantra+1
If not capped on attack, Tantra+2 > Juogi+1 = Loki's > Tantra+1 > Juogi > Osode > Usukane > Shura
Aesir over Kemas if not capped on attack

Subject to rounding variance depending on exactly how much str you have.


@Radecx: Looks like a 78% OAT rate, though with a moderate margin of error due to the small sample size. May possibly be 80%. Don't think that's going to be enough to keep up, but I'll run some Footwork numbers later to see.


Side note: I've gotten Triple Attack factored into the melee side of things, still working on adding it to the weaponskill calculations. Will be able to do estimates of TA atma soon.
#14 Dec 10 2010 at 6:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ok, implemented TA into weaponskills as well as melee.

Setting up a couple simple comparisons using mid-grade gear set and 2-3 atma. +40 to all stats from cruor buffs. Haste spell, no other haste buffs. Impetus used (60% uptime). No Boost used. Bison Steak.

Weapons are either Fire Taipans +2 using Ascetic's Fury or Revenents +2 using Victory Smite.

First atma is always RR:
Taipans: 176.483
Revenants: 216.276

Sets with second atma of:

Stout Arm:
Taipans: 195.090
Revenants: 240.763

VV:
Taipans: 200.038
Revenants: 249.695

GH/DD:
Taipans: 200.113
Revenants: 242.242

A&O (assumed 10% TA for Major effect):
Taipans: 200.848
Revenants: 242.273

Sanguine Scythe:
Taipans: 199.543
Revenants: 240.684


So VV, GH and A&O are all roughly on par with each other and slightly ahead of SA. VV takes a slight lead with Revenant's Victory Smite use due to the high str.


With a third atma you have room to push a bit more defensive stats in your atma choice, so may want something like Sanguine Scythe's +HP, GH's +counter, Siren Shadow's +eva, etc. Your choice in that regard depends on what you're doing, so I'll just note it and move on.

For pure, unmitigated offense, what sorts of combos can we put together?


Max crit rate: RR+GH+DD (reduces the effectiveness of Impetus)
Taipans: 210.821
Revenants: 255.304

So only a small gain.

Max crit damage: RR+GH+Sanguine Scythe
Taipans: 228.753
Revenants: 277.303

So a fairly healthy gain, and +HP as well.


Add triple attack to either VV or GH:
RR+GH+A&O:
Taipans: 225.418
Revenants: 273.484

RR+VV+A&O:
Taipans: 225.965
Revenants: 285.174

About the same either way for the Taipans, though the Revenants get a lot more from combining with VV. Both are fairly close to the RR+GH+SS option, which I'd likely choose simply for +30% HP instead of -25% HP; GH+SS certainly provides excellent defense along with the offense.

There's also Roaring Laughter. Major Str implies +40 there (same as Stout Arm). Since GH's +counter of ~10% is Minor, would expect +15% with Major +counter, though might be as high as 20%. Even 15%, though, combined with GH and Counterstance would put us at a nominal 85% counter rate, up to 93% with Usu hands, Backlash Torque, Ultion Mantle and WotG reward earring, and then Perfect Counter for another percent or two. Would be nigh immune to melee hit damage.

Ordinary damage output including that as the third (RR+GH+RL):
Taipans: 208.066
Revenants: 256.727

Back to being only a small improvement over two atma in terms of damage output. The extra counter rate should more than make up the difference, though, I think. With those three atma, I don't think there'd be any excuse left not to go /war, except maybe if you need someone to proc ninjutsu nukes.

And just realized I'd left in the -10 MA delay from the Tantra+2 body in these calculations, so actual values should be slightly lower. Relative scale should remain the same, though, so I don't feel like going back and redoing it all.



Edited, Dec 10th 2010 6:17pm by Kinematics
#15 Dec 10 2010 at 6:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, I'm pretty sure the TA is only 5%, it's what ppl have been reporting.

That being said. RR GH SS?
#16 Dec 10 2010 at 7:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, that seems like the best all-purpose combo until RL is found.
#17 Dec 12 2010 at 9:07 AM Rating: Decent
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2 cions away from smite.

Seeing as I'll still be spamming WoE, working on the great axe, I'll be spending a fair amount of time outside of abyssea.

That being said, I was thinking more of a dex based set up?


Rev fists+2/empty/empty/Black Tathlum
Gnadbhod's helm/Love torque/Brutal/Delta
Osode (no loki)/Enkidu/Rajas/Thunder
Forager (not buying another cuch lol)/Warwolf/Usu or Bykko's/Hume RSE (3 dex 3 str)

or is that sacrificing too much from other slots?
#18 Dec 12 2010 at 4:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, you should have capped crit rate on anything with an agi of ~93 or less, which should really cover everything you'll be fighting outside Abyssea...

Picked a mob with 92 agi, to see the most direct loss from crit rate as other gear is swapped in. There's lots of fussiness in the results depending on exact target mob stats. Just making rough estimates for now.

Damage with your gear set (start with Byakko's), with/without Impetus: 1816/1592

Switching Thunder to Spiral: 1815/1589
- Slightly weaker; keeping thunder
Switching legs to Usukane: 1800/1579
- weaker; staying with Byakko's
Switching Love Torque to gorget: 1817/1588
- minimal change
Switching Warwolf to ele.belt: 1770/1547
- notably weaker for both; keeping Warwolf
Switching hume RSE feet to Tantra +1: 1815/1592 (1830/1605 with Tantra+2)
- no notable change with the +1; the +2 is slightly better

So overall it seems there's no single piece that's worth changing out.


However, if we start with swapping Thunder to Spiral:

Switching legs to Usukane: 1830/1602
- improvement
Switching Love Torque to gorget: 1863/1631
- more improvement
Switching Warwolf to ele.belt: 1839/1610
- notably weaker for both; keeping Warwolf
Switching hume RSE feet to Tantra +1: 1869/1638 (1871/1642 with Tantra+2)
- slight improvement with +1s, with a further slight improvement with the +2s

Assuming you're not capping attack, and staying with Tantra+1 feet:
Switching Enkidu hands to BKote: 1895/1669
Switching Enkidu hands to Heafoc (only if staying at capped acc): 1933/1698
- Using Heafoc

Switching Delta to Kemas earring: 1940/1703
- another slight gain

Switching Black Tathlum to:
Tantra Tathlum: 1948/1707
Thew Bomblet: 1966/1727
- Using Thew

And for reference, swapping bodies to:
Loki's: 1934/1682
Tantra +1: 1973/1736
Tantra +2: 2000/1761
- So Loki's is a worse option here than Osode, whereas either of the Tantra bodies is an improvement.

Not counting the body change, going the str route seems to be about a 6%-7% improvement over the dex route, even though you were losing crit rate almost right off the bat as gear changed. With mobs with lower agi the relative difference should swing more in +str's favor, and with higher agi the +dex build won't get as much out of its crits either.

#19 Dec 12 2010 at 4:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh, should I be using justice torque at all then if ele belt is losing to warwolf?

and thanks.

Also, Victory smite: O
#20lynnminmay, Posted: Dec 12 2010 at 5:02 PM, Rating: Unrated, (Expand Post) Stop with the dumb dex builds, seriously, they were not even good at colibri camps.
#21 Dec 12 2010 at 5:28 PM Rating: Good
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lynnminmay wrote:
I'll stop with the dumb posts, seriously, they were not even good ever.


FTFY
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#22 Dec 12 2010 at 6:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Even if things round in Justice Torque's favor, the gorget should still be slightly better. Warwolf gets the str plus a high probability of +crit as well. Hard to compare all possible config options, but in general warwolf is likely to be slightly ahead of the belt, while either 5 dex or 5 str on their own don't quite win vs the gorget.
#23 Dec 13 2010 at 8:35 AM Rating: Good
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This post is perhaps entirely redundant by other weapon/atma combinations that outperform my setup in certain scenarios. Nevertheless, I would like to share some testing results with the Ursine Claws +1 (no DMG OA2-3) and Ursine Claws +2 (no DMG OA2-4).

In order to determine whether it would be worthwhile to upgrade the Ursine Claws +1 to +2, I have conducted a limited test using my own character and my brother’s, in which I used the +2s, while my brother used +1s. While using no other gear besides the weapon and both having 100% similar MNK merits (5 Kick attacks), we hit some campaign fortifications.

The results are as follows:

Ursine Claws +1 (no DMG OA2-3) – 261 attack rounds, 444 hits (includes misses, 95.95% acc) 
Ursine Claws +2 (no DMG OA2-4) – 269 attack rounds, 463 hits (includes misses, 95.03% acc)


Normalised this translates into:

Ursine Claws +1 (no DMG OA2-3) – 100 attack rounds, 170 hits (= 70% double attack) 
Ursine Claws +2 (no DMG OA2-4) – 100 attack rounds, 172 hits (= 72% double attack)


The difference is not significant given the relatively small sample size (got aggro from a campaign boss lol). The preliminary results hint at a 2% increase in double attack rate, though further testing would be advisable.

[edit= I didn't mean to anon; Julio, Siren server]

Edited, Dec 13th 2010 9:36am by DodgyTrunks
#24lynnminmay, Posted: Dec 13 2010 at 9:28 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You'd need probably around 10,000 sample size to distinguish 2% variation and secondly you'd also need to know the variance of your test ( I think it's done in kparser, but you can simply calculate it if you have the number of 1 swing, 2 swings, 3 swings ..)
#25 Dec 15 2010 at 8:57 AM Rating: Good
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Atma of the Apocalypse:

http://radec.pastebin.com/styvgnur

Again small sample size but trying to get general ideas of the value of each for now.

Combined lines that were Triple Attacks, 15/86.

No DA/TA gear, /dnc, using regen atmax2+apoc.
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#26 Dec 16 2010 at 1:38 AM Rating: Decent
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not sure how to test the rate, but i just obtained the atma a few min ago. id be willing to assist if told directions etc
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