Magian H2H Cont...Follow

MANTIS PATH
After completing Trial 75:

-Trial 1138
*Dmg +8, Del +55 (wtf? decrease in damage?)
(Requirement- 10 Chesma kills)

which opens 2 NEW trials:

-Trial 1139
*Verethragna: Dmg +27, Del +51
(Requirement- Collect 50 two-leaf chloris buds)
or
-Trial 1140
*Revenant Fists: Dmg +23, Del +55
(Requirement- Collect 30 coins of advancement)
END


OAT PATH
After completing Trial 78 (Baby Blobs) you open up:

-Trial 1141
*Dmg +18, Del +65, OAT
(Requirement- Collect 10 manananggal's necklaces)

which opens

-Trial 1142
*Ursine Claws: Dmg +19, Del +54, OAT
(Requirement- Collect 20 Mictlantecuhtli's habits)
END

After completing Trial 81 (crappy OAT weapon)

-Trial 1143
*Delay +47, OAT
(Requirement- 600 undead kills)
which opens 2 NEW ones.

-Trial 1144
*Ursine Claws: Delay +54, Occasionally attacks 2-3 times
(Requirement- 450 apkallu kills)
or
-Trial 1145
*Ursine Claws: Dmg +23, Delay +86, Double attack +7
(Requirement- 30 Irrlicht kills)


I'm going to hop over to staffs for a while and check those out for my BLM while everyone digests these.

Edited, Jun 21st 2010 10:17pm by Prim

Cat's Claws w/Weakens Defense AE (since I have these) proceeds to

> 1180
250 times vs Doomed

Yield: dmg +10+10, delay +66, AE: weakens defense +10

> 1181
350 times vs funguar

Yield: Taipan Fangs, dmg +22+1, delay +61+5, AE: weakens defense +15


Others should be similar. Taipan Fangs look pretty nice, if the AE is fixed.

oO

-Trial 1145
*Ursine Claws: Dmg +23, Delay +86, Double attack +7
(Requirement- 30 Irrlicht kills)

That doesn't make any sense; 23 dmg, but only "OAT" 7%, vs 19 dmg and OAT ~40%?

(Not saying the listing is wrong, just confused by the presence of it at all)

Is 2-3x likely to be any kind of mentionable performance increase, particularly when compared to 19dmg OAT or the 27 dmg mantis though?

Also, where do these new trials put us in relation to Destroyers and such? Don't want to get halfway down a path that isn't particularly useful...

I hate asking this because I know most of the math myself but haven't been able to find a graspable way to evaluate WS frequency to factor that in. Someone showed me how they find it once, but their method uses some specialty math program (called 'maple' or something, don't remember) to keep the margin of error down for the multihit stuff, and I couldn't seem to replicate it with my limited knowledge of VB/VBA.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2010 4:04pm by Norellicus

I knew there would be a better one, my question is WHICH. None are exactly bad, but if I have to put in that much effort one way or another I might as well shoot for the mathematically proofed top dog, eh?

Continuing from http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?fjob=11&mid=1276765634127476753&page=1&howmany=50#msg1277151353326746866

Doing quick estimates of the other Magian weapons.

Summary of DPS ratings:

Baseline: 47.792
Destroyers: 48.755
Afflictors: 46.858 - 47.912
Lunaris Claws: 48.890 without acc/att bonus
Verethragna: 53.468
Ursine Claws (d19/y440/OAT): 53.062
Ursine Claws (d0/y440/OA2-3): 44.26
Spharai (80): 63.444
Taipan Fangs (base): 48.70
Taipan Fangs (50% def down time): 53.215


Assumptions:

1: User is level 80 with 301 base skill, 16 skill from merits, and that base damage calculations remain as they are now. Total base damage: 37 (would go to 38 with Faith Torque).
2: Target is comparable to level 82 greater colibri. So, level 87 with 315 defense with Dia II.

Stats:
+6 Store TP (Rajas + Brutal)
+5 fStr
14 WSC
510 attack (~425 base plus 85 for YCBs)
10% crit rate
5% KA merits
100% accuracy (will adjust for accuracy later, if needed)
0% haste (not relevant for these comparisons)

cRatio = 1.269
Boosted cRatio: 1.520


Verethragna

Dmg +27, Del +51

Base TP/hit: 4.9
Hits/weaponskill: 18.775
Rounds/weaponskill: 8.253

Melee hit: 37 + 27 + 5 = 69
Melee kick: 37 + 5 = 42

Avg melee hit = 69 * 1.269 + 69 * .1 = 94.461
Avg melee kick = 42 * 1.269 + 42 * .1 = 57.50

Damage per round: 2.1 * 94.461 + .175 * 57.50 = 208.431

Total melee damage: 208.431 * 8.253 = 1,720

Weaponskill damage: 8.1 * 1.520 * 69+14 = 1,022

Total damage: 2,742

Total delay per weaponskill: 351 * 8.253 + 180 = 3,077

DPS: 2,742 / (3,077/60) = 53.468


Ursine Claws (OAT)

Dmg +0+19, Del +86+54, OAT

Base TP/hit: 5.9
+Store TP: 6.2
14 hits between weaponskills
Hits per round: 1.43 * 2 + .175 = 3.035
Hit overage: 2.535

Hits per weaponskill: 16.535
Rounds per weaponskill: 16.535 / 3.035 = 5.448

Melee hit: 37 + 19 + 5 = 61
Melee kick: 37 + 5 = 42

Avg melee hit = 61 * 1.269 + 61 * .1 = 83.509
Avg melee kick = 42 * 1.269 + 42 * .1 = 57.50

Damage per round: 2.86 * 83.509 + .175 * 57.50 = 248.90

Total melee damage: 248.90 * 5.448 = 1,356

Weaponskill damage: 8.1 * 1.520 * 61+14 = 923

Total damage: 2,279

Total delay per weaponskill: 440 * 5.448 + 180 = 2,577

DPS: 2,279 / (2,577/60) = 53.062


Ursine Claws (OA2-3)
Dmg +0+0, Del +86+54, OA2-3

Assuming hit distribution of 50% 1x, 30% 2x, 20% 3x

Hits per fist: 1 + .3 + .2*2 = 1.7
Hits per fist w/Brutal: 1 + .05 + .95*30% + .95*20%*2 = 1.715
-- Can swap brutal for something else; using brutal for now for consistancy

Hits per round: 1.715 * 2 + .175 = 3.605
Hit overage: 3.105

14 hits between weaponskills
Hits per weaponskill: 17.105

Rounds per weaponskill: 17.105 / 3.605 = 4.745

Melee hit: 37 + 5 = 42
Melee kick: 37 + 5 = 42

Avg melee hit = 42 * 1.269 + 42 * .1 = 57.50
Avg melee kick = 42 * 1.269 + 42 * .1 = 57.50

Damage per round: 3.605 * 57.50 = 207.2875

Total melee damage: 207.2875 * 4.745 = 984

Weaponskill damage: 8.1 * 1.520 * 42+14 = 689

Total damage: 1,673

Total delay per weaponskill: 440 * 4.745 + 180 = 2,268

DPS: 1,640 / (2,268/60) = 44.26


Spharai
DMG:+34 Delay:+86 Attack+25

Base TP/hit: 5.3
TP w/6 STP: 5.6

14 hits between weaponskills
1.775 overflow hits
Total hits per weaponskill: 15.775

Hits per round: 2.275
Rounds per weaponskill: 15.775 / 2.275 = 6.934

Attack = 510 + 25 = 535
cRatio = 1.348
Boost attack: +84
Boosted attack: 619
Boosted cRatio: 1.615

Melee hit: 37 + 34 + 5 = 76
Melee kick: 37 + 5 = 42

Avg melee hit = 76 * 1.348 + 76 * .1 = 110.048
Avg melee kick = 42 * 1.348 + 42 * .1 = 60.816

Damage per round: 2.1 * 110.048 + .175 * 60.816 = 241.7436

Total melee damage: 241.7436 * 6.934 = 1,676

Weaponskill damage: 8.1 * 1.615 * 76+14 = 1,177

Total damage: 2,853

Total delay per weaponskill: 386 * 6.934 + 180 = 2,857

DPS: 2,853 / (2,857/60) = 59.916

Edit: Add in 5% triple damage proc rate on melee hits:
1,676 * 1.1 = 1,844 melee
+ 1,177 ws = 3,021 total damage
DPS: 3,021 / (2,857/60) = 63.444


Taipan Fangs

Dmg +23, Del +66, AE: 15% Defense Down

Base TP/hit: 5.0 >> 5.3
Hits/weaponskill: 17.775
Rounds/weaponskill: 7.813

Melee hit: 37 + 23 + 5 = 65
Melee kick: 37 + 5 = 42

First, without any Def Down considerations.


Avg melee hit = 65 * 1.269 + 65 * .1 = 88.985
Avg melee kick = 42 * 1.269 + 42 * .1 = 57.50

Damage per round: 2.1 * 88.985 + .175 * 57.50 = 196.931

Total melee damage: 196.931 * 8.253 = 1,625

Weaponskill damage: 8.1 * 1.520 * 65+14 = 973

Total damage: 2,598

Total delay per weaponskill: 366 * 8.253 + 180 = 3,201

DPS: 2,598 / (3,201/60) = 48.70

~~ tied with Destroyers

At 50% haste and 5% proc rate, average time to proc would be 30 seconds. Since duration is 30 seconds, up to 50% of the time the mob will be under the effect of the Defense Down. On short/merit fights (~30 seconds), half of the fight is likely to elapse before a proc, which means the effective duration is halved to 15 seconds.

While I'm still using the assumed stats, this is intended to view the value of the weapons during longer fights.

With 50% Def Down coverage, I'll just run the numbers with def down, and then average together with the baseline value.

Att: 510
Def: 350 * (1 - (.1 + .15)) = 263
cRatio: 1.589

Avg melee hit = 65 * 1.589 + 65 * .1 = 109.785
Avg melee kick = 42 * 1.589 + 42 * .1 = 70.938

Damage per round: 2.1 * 109.785 + .175 * 70.938 = 242.963

Total melee damage: 196.931 * 8.253 = 2,005

Boost not used
Weaponskill damage: 8.1 * 1.589 * 65+14 = 1,017

Total damage: 3,022

Total delay per weaponskill: 366 * 8.253 + 120 = 3,141

DPS: 3,022 / (3,141/60) = 57.73


Average with 50% coverage: 53.215



Edited, Jun 22nd 2010 10:05pm by Kinematics

Edited, Jun 25th 2010 2:15pm by Kinematics

Edited, Jul 5th 2010 5:57pm by Kinematics

Kine could you toss Fully upgraded Spharai in your math please?

Rassitier: Added lvl 80 Spharai.

Veggeto: Yes, Boost + weaponskill delays are accounted for.

last night I got on and tested to make sure my gimp wargs were not broke. Luckily they still work with footwork.

Now, 2-3 times att would make footwork pretty damned good, especially if them new haste 5% boots have decent kick+ dmg on them, I see these being a solid contender keeping up with the higher dmg weapons.

Also as anyone tested if tornado kick stack with footwork like DK? and also does it SC?

I did like the above posters name for the OA3x "Ridll claws"

Me, I am going to get my ass down to KRT today (or gustav if a duo) and get to work on the new footwork monster.

Due to a broken PC for last week,I havent got round to doing any tests for double att proc on DK or lolguard.

I was in sky killing pots last night as /nin and in about 1hr I got hit a fair few times and I think guard activated a total of maybe 3 times.

ust wanted to confirm that h2h formula remained unchanged and we didn't get shafted from base dmg

Gustaburg 30 crits w/ and w/o faith torque (297/304 skill)

With faith torque:
Melee Crits
195 181 190 194 195 192 197 197 196 193
172 194 176 196 193 190 192 177 170 185
182 183 187 201 181 173 193 201 182 193


W/o faith torque:
Melee Crits
173 190 194 190 187 197 181 195 197 195
175 193 191 178 175 191 197 191 186 173
188 175 174 190 173 194 184 197 190 196


Max crit w/o was 197 where as max crit with was 201. Small sample size, but conclusive enough for me.



Torque: Melee Damage
Player Melee Dmg Melee % Hit/Miss M.Acc % M.Low/Hi M.Avg #Crit C.Low/Hi C.Avg Crit%
Tigerwoods 10532 100.00 % 68/6 91.89 % 105/154 128.45 30 170/201 188.37 44.12 %



No torque: Player Melee Dmg Melee % Hit/Miss M.Acc % M.Low/Hi M.Avg #Crit C.Low/Hi C.Avg Crit%
Tigerwoods 11190 100.00 % 73/3 96.05 % 100/156 129.77 30 173/197 187.00 41.10 %

Am I correct in my napkin math that as your accuracy goes down (or other buffs are similarly shifted to your disadvantage), the OAT weapon pulls ahead of the empyrian one?

can we get a calculation of footwork w/ KKs + ridill claws please?

Edit: New testing is showing that the OA2-3 effect is only an OA2 effect with Footwork, with a ~70% proc rate. Adding in kick attacks and Brutal, that puts the total DA rate at ~76% (75% without Brutal). Reworking the math below using these numbers. Base damage went down, but Tornado Kick made up for a lot of the slack after the proc rate adjustments.

Different weapons for use with Footwork. It's problematic to compare these with the standard H2H numbers since this is just a quick estimate, and gearsets are subject to change. In addition, from the sounds of things Tornado Kick is going to be the weaponskill of choice for Footwork now, but we don't have solid data on it to be able to math it out. As such, I'm going to continue using Asuran Fists, except for the low damage OA2-3 weapon which will use Dragon Kick.

I'm going to use KKs as the base footwear since that's generally our best option (new shoes might be better, but we don't have solid data on them yet). I'm also going to use the new 4% haste/+4 Store TP headpiece to get a solid 7-hit even with 2-hit weaponskills like Dragon Kick/Tornado Kick (8-hit Footwork is generally far too weak).

These DPS ratings can't be directly compared to the earlier numbers for standard H2H because of the inherently different gear used. Even so, those OA2-3 claws are looking very tempting...

Summary DPS ratings:

Baseline/Destroyers: 44.08
Lunaris Claws: 46.821 + acc/att
Verethragna: slightly above Lunaris claws (d+27 instead of +26; applies to weaponskills only), but only if excluding acc/att
Ursine Claws (high dmg, OAT): 53.59
Ursine Claws (low dmg, OA2-3): 59.60


Assumptions:

1: User is level 80 with 301 base skill, 16 skill from merits, and that base damage calculations remain as they are now. Total base damage: 37 (would go to 38 with Faith Torque).
2: Target is comparable to level 82 greater colibri. So, level 87 with 315 defense with Dia II.

Stats:
+10 Store TP (Rajas + Brutal + Brisk Mask)
+5 fStr
14 WSC
573 attack (~425 base + 20 (KKs) + 1.1 = 488 + 85 for YCBs)
Boost attack: 83 (total = 656)
10% crit rate
5% KA merits
100% accuracy (will adjust for accuracy later, if needed)
0% haste (not relevant for these comparisons)


Baseline (plain d18, dly +48 weapon)

cRatio = 1.469
Boosted cRatio: 1.650

TP per hit: 13 * 1.1 = 14.3

Kicks between weaponskills: 5

Base hand damage: 37 + 18 + 5 = 60
Base kick damage: 37 + 18 + 25 + 5 = 85

Avg kick damage: 85 * 1.469 + 85 * .1 = 133.365

17.5% KA rate + 5% DA rate ~= 21.625% MA rate

Kicks per round: 1.21625

Kick overage: 50% of .21625 + 30% of 1.21625 = 0.473

Kicks per weaponskill: 5.473

Rounds per weaponskill: 5.473 / 1.21625 = 4.500

Damage per round: 1.21625 * 133.365 = 162.205

Total melee damage: 730

Average Asuran: 8.1 * 1.650 * 60+14 = 989

Total damage: 1,719

Total delay: 480 * 4.500 + 180 = 2,340

DPS: 1,719 / (2,340/60) = 44.077


Lunaris Claws

No change to melee.

Base hand damage: 37 + 26 + 5 = 68

Average Asuran: 8.1 * 1.650 * 68+14 = 1,096

Total damage: 1,826

Total delay: 480 * 4.500 + 180 = 2,340

DPS: 1,826 / (2,340/60) = 46.821

Then add acc/att bonuses from weapon.


Verethragna

No change to melee.

Base hand damage: 37 + 26 + 5 = 68

Average Asuran: 8.1 * 1.650 * 68+14 = 1,096

Total damage: 1,826

Total delay: 480 * 4.500 + 180 = 2,340

DPS: 1,826 / (2,340/60) = 46.821

Then add acc/att bonuses from weapon.


Ursine Claws (high dmg)

+0+19 dmg, +86+54 delay, OAT

Base hand damage: 37 + 19 + 5 = 61
Base kick damage: 37 + 18 + 25 + 5 = 85

Assuming types of multiattack are exclusive:
17.5% KA rate + 5% DA rate + 40% OAT rate ~= 52.975% MA rate

Kicks per round: 1.52975

Kick overage: 50% of .52975 + 30% of 1.52975 = 0.7238

Kicks per weaponskill: 5.7238

Rounds per weaponskill: 5.7238 / 1.52975 = 3.742

Damage per round: 1.52975 * 133.365 = 204.015

Total melee damage: 763

Average Asuran: 8.1 * 1.650 * 61+14 = 1,002

Total damage: 1,765

Total delay: 480 * 3.742 + 180 = 1,976

DPS: 1,765 / (1,976/60) = 53.593


Ursine Claws (low damage, OA2-3)

+0+0 dmg, +86+54 delay, OA2-3

Base hand damage: 37 + 19 + 5 = 61
Base kick damage: 37 + 18 + 25 + 5 = 85

Assuming types of multiattack are exclusive:
76% DA, 1.76 kicks per round

Kick overage: 50% of .76 + 30% of 1.76 = 0.908

Kicks per weaponskill: 5.908

Rounds per weaponskill: 5.908 / 1.76 = 3.357

Damage per round: 1.76 * 133.365 = 234.7224

Total melee damage: 788

WSC: 50
Gorget: +.1
DA: +.05*2
Average Tornado Kick: 4.45 * 1.650 * 85+50 = 991

Total damage: 1,779

Total delay: 480 * 3.357 + 180 = 1,791

DPS: 1,779 / (1,791/60) = 59.60


Edited, Jul 5th 2010 5:45pm by Kinematics

They are Rare.

I believe the name on the high dmg OAT doesn't change till the final trial. so you could do 0dmg/OA2-3, and do 18dmg/OAT at the same time. as long as you complete the OA2-3 first.

interesting thing I noticed today was using footwork with Tornado kick I was getting an extra 1tp after WS.

DK would net me 27tp while most of the time TK gave me 28.

Maybe its a twofold attack with an extra 1 because of how H2H works. This would follow pattern of dual wield getting an extra attack on WS, because DK does not say it is a twofold att.

Have a look for yourselves and see.

Also 335 undead to go!

Poise Shoes would also allow you to use a Head piece with 4% haste like the one that has +4 haste, +6acc/attack, +5 store TP, or something else.

Well today I completed the 600 undead part of getting the OA2-3 weapon.

I went to gustav tunnel and with either a whm pal or a rdm pal, went on a tornado kick killing spree. Much fun was had by all and whm/rdm were happy they could skill divine and healing magic easily on the skeletons
So now comes the part I am afraid of, 450 Apkallu, I dont have much experience of Apkallu hate, but 450 means I will be soon finding out. Wiki says they get lots harder the more you kill. I will post my experience here if it does not go well.

Also, on pheonix this week we have had martial master. Now, before update I had capped guard, yet as mnk/dnc for the 600 skeletons I did not get a single skill up which sucked.

Also another thing that will suck is me finishing my magian weapon before I am 80. Currently I am lv 77, will be midway through 78 I think by time apkallu are done. Then its all hands on the xp wagon.

So far I am missing dune boots and a gorget for TK / DK on footwork as it stands for 75, not sure about how easy any of the new gear is to get yet, poise shoes I hope will be as easy to get as KK's.

Well tomorrow is seeing who I can drag to kill apkallus day.

Out of idle curiosity, assuming the weapons gain another "level" at 85, what would they look like if we assume the same stat adjustment from 75-80?

So Verethragna would be D+33, and OAT would be D+21. Assume no change in delay for simplicity.

Just wondering if the gap between them gets wider...since it seems we'll have to do Abyssea either way to get the 'best' of the lot, might as well put some foresight into it.

Edit: I'm a bonehead, if it's just a change in weapon DMG and not delay then I can just use the math you already did lol.

Edited, Jun 24th 2010 1:22pm by Norellicus

I'm sorry, "turkeys"?

Well, you were using amusing pseudonyms for the weapons, I went along with it :) And yes, I was referring to the Verethragna, even though they still look like behemoth horns to me.

I kind of think they look more like they were made from a demon skull lol. Anyway, so you think they and the Blobs should do about the same damage overall? I'm curious because I'm also wondering if it would be better to continue saving for an Enikdu Harness or put that money toward a Juogi (Cashmere Cloth). It sounds like Enkidu would be better for Ridillclaws, but the Juogi would be better for everything else.

EDIT: I'm sure there's better body options, but I haven't been doing any campaign on this character, and I doubt I'll ever have the cash for Usukane.

Edited, Jun 24th 2010 1:26pm by LadyOfHolyDarkness

Apkallu are invincible.

Started on them today and they got harder and harder to damage, after 50 kills had a blu blm and sam turn up to help.

After 75 kills I was finally hitting for 0 with footwork up. As soon as blm started to cast they attacked him and he had super resist rate.

This is on DC mobs. Unless there is a reliable way to lower hate, this will not be a quick finish for anyone.

Kinematics,

While I'm quite good at math and pretty good (or so I hope) at monk, I've not made as much effort as I perhaps should on Monk Math. So, with "Spharai V" coming up after I learn to hate loathe rabbits, tigers, and worms, I'm trying to get a handle on it (I was going to say "grip", but that would just remind me that monks still can't use those :( ).

Anyhow, could you please expand (mathematically and verbosely) upon the terms used for calculating Spharai (and other) DPS? Also, I was specifically looking for a term in your equations that would account for the approximate 5% proc rate on triple damage.

(edit: going to go back and try to absorb http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=11;mid=122638850455656019;num=17;page=1 over lunch)

Edited, Jun 25th 2010 9:16am by Kiine