Tornado KickFollow

Meh, can't speculate much on it yet. My guess- Howling Fist : Ascetic's Fury :: Dragon Kick : Tornado Kick.

From my estimations, what I *hope* for is the same 50% str/50% vit mods that Dragon Kick and Ascetic's Fury get, but with a base fTP of 3.0. Assuming that it works with kick boots during Footwork the way Dragon Kick does, Asuran Fists would still be better during normal H2H (though it would significantly shrink the gap compared to Dragon Kick, and be a pretty solid weaponskill for Pup), but this would be better than Asuran if you're using Footwork.

Also hoping that these weaponskills will have chain affinities like the relic weaponskills, able to close light on light, or dark on dark. Would like Tornado Kick to be Light/Distortion type, so Tornado > Tornado is Light, Tornado <> Asuran is Dark.

Obviously what I hope for and what we get have no bearing on each other.

Still this new ws seems mighty convenient for those who get the weaker magician's trail oat h2h + footwork.

Edited, Jun 5th 2010 11:18pm by RedGalka

Not sure what you're trying to say. What I tried to say was that you would have both melee damage based on boots and a strong ws (hopefully -__-) based on boots. So the cheap weapon version would be evenly matched to the harder trail version, right?

What I was trying to say was that you can assume -nothing- based on a few seconds of video.

Even though the weapon skill appears to be a kick attack, there's nothing that remotely suggests that the mechanics of the weapon skill have anything to do with Kick Attacks or their modifiers. It is equally likely that the mechanics of Tornado Kick are based on H2H delay as they are on Kick Attacks modifiers.

My initial impression was meh at best with this weaponskill.

I was able to use it at 302 skill (I'm assuming 300 and i didn't notice)

I tossed it right in to my DK macro, and the damage was roughly 650-700 on collibri, and it seemed to drop down with footwork/dune boots.

I only did a small handfull of WS's but thats my initial impression

wtf are you talking about im hitting 1k Tornadoes on IT Abraxas on the reg

highest so far 1348


edit: WS is mediocre at best w/o Footwork and dune boots. Highs of 650ish. With Footwork, Waghs and KKs (dunes for WS) its pretty powerful. Can just imagine with wargs.

Obviously testing has to be done, exping now tho and im not much of a tester.

Ave only been using the WS as mnk/nin so far.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2010 12:03pm by Llester

Edited, Jun 22nd 2010 12:57pm by Llester

Edited, Jun 22nd 2010 1:08pm by Llester

Even w/o footwork, only time I've done under 800 on greater colibri is when I missed a hit

I have yet to test it out in a real party setup, i had no attack songs, rolls, or food when i was trying this last night.

I have einherjar tonight and if I make it to the run tonight I will def be trying tornado kick. I use footwork in einherjar, and had been using asuran fists. But next time I am going to try it out. and I will have a COR and SAM in the party while getting SAM roll.

Could you list the individual damage values from the Offense Details page?

Pretty solid then, if it's tending towards 600 normally, comparing relative to the other DDs. That beats out most other weaponskills by everyone but the thf (no surprise, given SA/TA) even without the Footwork bonus. Allowing for Footwork... the idea of the OA2-3 weapon plus Footwork Tornado Kicks is actually looking a bit scary.

I was playing around with it a bit in Dynamis Bubu with Footwork. It was doing very consistent damage around 1000 with 100 TP, which is pretty nice on dynamis mobs. Hard to compare to others since some were 75, some were 80, and I was 79 (though uncapped skill). I also hit over 2000 with 300 TP with Footwork.

Regardless though, higher damage than Asurans.

Also, from what I could tell from SCs, it appears to be Induration and Detonation element - so the above numbers were done with Breeze Gorget, which seemed to be effective.

Despite not having any specific footwork build besides dune boots, the WS damage alone was pulling a lot of hate. I agree that the attacks 2-3 times weapons with Footwork could be a bit insane.

Also, pretty sure it is still a STR and VIT mod like everything else. Switching Genbu's Kabuto for my AMK Helm (STR/Attack/WS Acc) seemed to reduce damage. Definitely higher modifiers/multipliers than Dragon Kick though. Only problem is that since I was stacking STR/VIT it would miss one of the hits more often than I would like.

In merits, even without Footwork, it was mostly doing better damage than Asuran. I was hitting around 700-800 at 100 TP without Footwork on merit mobs, while Asuran would usually be around 600 - the only problem being the damage drop when you miss a hit. I mostly used Tornado when I had focus up, and Asuran if not.

Anyway, definitely a decent addition. Maybe I'll even get to go kick some HNMs while MNK is my only 80...

Edited, Jun 24th 2010 1:05am by Solarus2

Atm, I'm using my howling fist gear w/ genbucket swapped to anwig salade and gorget to torque (since Idk what gorget to use yet)

Testing was done w/o gorget btw, since I didn't know which to use.

Edited, Jun 24th 2010 2:42am by Veggeto

hmm, kinda weird for 3hit tho? I thought h2h ws always had the offhand hit already considered when it says the number of hits in ws description. Stringing being 6 instead of 7 and asuran obviously being described correctly, as an 8 hit

On my magian trial I did lots of TK, it must be a 3hit due to the tp returns i have been getting. 13 14 27 28 29 1

However I think the bulk of the FTP stuffs is on the 1st and 2nd hit, avg wasp about 1200 for 28 tp return 27 was about 900-1000, 1tp return was about 270 and 13 tp about 500.

No particular parse data, this is what I saw today when I must have used TK at least 1000 times.

With KK foot work and OAT wargs it was great fun on bones, cant wait for the 2-3x version, if like other 2-3x weapons they will quite simply be incredible.

In effect its a dmg 80/85 weapon (38+ 18 +25/30) with delay 480 with 2-3x att and a good solid WS. In your face 2H weapon users!

How much accuracy should Tornado kick have since it's a 3 hit? I currently use my DK set (with only acc coming from KK's 20). Because of a 5 kick setup, I want to make sure my tornado kick acc is high enough to maintain a 5 kick setup (until I get the 4%haste/stp headpiece).

Second question is that by adding more acc, what should be replace in it's place, attack, str or vit given when they are all in range of each other. For example, I'm thinking of replacing usu legs for shura legs (10 atk vs 7 acc) and astroble vs bibiki seashell (1str,3acc vs 4vit). This is all assuming its a 3hit, 32% str and 40% (or was it 50% I forgot) vit mod of course.

I've been getting consistant 1250 ish range tornado kick with fulltime footwork on EP's (950 ish without footwork). Haven't had time to try on harder stuff as I've been slaugtering thousands of ep for the OA2-3x claws. *edit* on /dnc and I can post my ws gear set if it helps to answer my question

Edited, Jun 25th 2010 7:41pm by Bytemeee

Ok, going to assume my estimate of the weaponskill mods is accurate for this. So, 3.5 fTP, 32% str, 40% vit.

From what I remember, the first hit of all weaponskills gets the accuracy boost. For 1-hit weaponskills this is much more noticeable, since the entirety of the weaponskill damage comes from that first hit. For most multi-hit weaponskills it's not a big deal since the first hit doesn't do notably more damage than the other hits (eg: Asuran Fists), or even does less than the other hits (eg: Rampage's fTP is 0.5), therefore it doesn't abnormally affect the overall weaponskill's damage.

With Tornado Kick, however, and to a lesser extent Dragon Kick and Howling Fist, the majority of the damage comes from the first hit. For TK, the first hit is 3.5 (3.6 with gorget) of the total damage, while the trailing hits are 1.0 each. That means 3.5/(3.5+1+1) = 3.5/5.5 = 64% of the weaponskill's damage gets the accuracy boost that makes adding accuracy unnecessary. Or, from the other end, only 36% of the weaponskill really benefits from accuracy.

As such, for any gain acquired from adding accuracy, you only get about 36% of its nominal benefit. If you add 10 accuracy and go from 90% to 95% hit rate, the 5.6% gain is reduced to 2%. On a very evasive target where you have, say, 70% base accuracy, +10 accuracy would gain you 2.6% instead of 7.1%. So we'll use that as the baseline value of addig 10 accuracy.

Using Footwork, base damage on Tornado Kick will be approximately: 37 (skill) + 18 (Footwork) + 5 (~fStr) + 25 (KKs) + 50 (lowball WSC) = 135. Adding 1 fStr or 1 WSC would be worth about a 0.74% increase in damage. Therefore we can consider that 2.7 to 3.5 base damage is needed to equal +10 accuracy.

Increase in base damage from Str would be: str/4 + str*.32*.83 = str * (.25 + .32*.83) = str * 0.5156.

To get 2.7 to 3.5 base damage from just Str, you'd need 5.2 to 6.8 str. So something in the range of 5 to 7 str should match 10 accuracy.

Increase in base damage from Vit would be: vit*.4*.83 = Vit * .332.

To get 2.7 to 3.5 base damage from just Vit, you'd need 8.1 to 10.5 vit. So something in the range of 8 to 11 Vit should match 10 accuracy.

Between Str and Vit, you'd need about 1.6 Vit to match/beat 1 Str.


We don't know of any attack boost/defense ignoring properties on Tornado Kick, so will treat it as straight equivalent to normal. Every point of attack (in gear) becomes 1.1875 with Boost, and ~1.3875 if you're using meat (eg: Yellow Curry Buns) and keeping with a food that caps close to your base attack.

For mobs with a defense between 250 and 350 (varying in level and debuffs), 11.875 attack (Boost only, to keep it simple) is between 0.0339 and 0.0475 cRatio. For a cRatio between 1.0 and 1.5, you can roughly estimate the percent increase as being about 3.25%.

3.25% of 135 base damage is roughly the equivalent of 4.4 base damage. That works out (based on the above) to ~8.5 Str or ~13.25 Vit. Will round off and say 9 str or 13 vit would thus roughly match 10 attack. However for str, that doesn't count the value of the attack the str itself adds; so, 9 Str would roughly match 14-15 attack.

Using Vit we can generate an equivalence between attack and accuracy. 13 vit for 10 attack, and ~10 vit for 10 accuracy means 1 accuracy for 1.3 attack. We can then back-substitute that in for the Str portion and note that the attack gained from the 5-7 str used to match 10 accuracy adds another couple points of accuracy to the str's side's value, giving us something approximating 6 str ~= 12 accuracy.


So, in terms of weaponskill equipping, we can roughly say:

1 str = 2 acc
1 vit = 1 acc
1 str = 1.5 att
1.3 vit = 1 att
1 acc = 1.3 att


Note, however, that attack is very easy to cap using Footwork, due to the +20 attack on the KKs plus the 10% boost of Footwork itself. Anything favoring an attack piece needs to be judged against the likelyhood of capping.

Similarly, though, fStr is also easy to cap, assuming the kick shoes are rank 0 weapons (the thread on that a few weeks ago never did give an answer). For example, vs Greater Colibri, Footwork's fStr would cap at 95 Str. That drasticly limits the usefulness of Str as a mod. Once past the fStr cap, additional str is worth only half of what it was before the cap. IE:

1 str = 1 acc
1 str = 0.75 att
1 str = 1 vit



Summary: the high fTP of the first hit works in favor of stat mods over accuracy, but the overall total base damage works in favor of attack over base mods (given that we can usually get substantially higher attack in a given slot than base stats). However any significant amount of attack boosts/defense down can quickly reach cap, so you need to be watchful of that.

Obviously, also check your WSC total to make sure a given item gives you substantial WSC improvement, where applicable.

Using just gear I have now, I would probably go for the following build:

weapon///Bibiki Seashell
Genbu's/gorget/Brutal/Aesir
Mirke(acc/att)/OKote/Rajas/Ulthalam
Forager/Warwolf/Usukane/KKs

Since I'd be at 93 str with that setup and using Pizza, there's a fair likelyhood that a gigas bracelet would push me well over the fStr cap on standard mobs, and that's with Taru strength. On the other hand, using Pizza would give me more headroom before capping out attack, so the kote would probably do better overall.

If I was using YCBs in a well-buffed scenario (eg: Salvage or similar, where I could depend on Dia and Chaos Roll), I'd go with the bracelets instead, and possibly a strength ring.

You don't need to do that.

Base TP per kick: 13

Usu body + Rajas + Brutal is 12 Store TP during TP phase, for 14.5 TP per kick.

5 kicks during TP phase is 72.5 TP, which means you need 27.5 TP during weaponskill.

That requires 13.8 TP per hit during the weaponskill (not using the 1 TP hit). To get 13.8 TP you need 7 Store TP during the weaponskill. You can get that with Rajas + Brutal + Ecphoria.

That means you're no longer dependant on that final +1 hit, and thus not beholden to the accuracy. The +1 hit can also make up for if you don't switch back to TP gear fast enough and get 1 hit (but not 2) in while wearing weaponskill gear.


Edited, Jun 26th 2010 1:02am by Kinematics

Anwig easily trumps all.

Anwig's str would be +1 for fStr, +1 for WSC, +2 total. The 7 attack should roughly equate to the other +3 from Genbu's if using Footwork.

Genbu's would, relatively speaking, be worth a bit under +1 more if not using Footwork, so could still have a slight edge on raw base damage at this point.

That leaves the 25 acc, though, which easily beats the piddling 1 base damage difference.

Therefore I'd use Genbu's only when you're in a fully capped situation (acc & att capped).


As for this vs Asuran: any time you're using Asuran, this should be roughly equivalent (maybe slightly worse sometimes) or better (if using Footwork). If Asuran is unfavorable then I think Tornado Kick would be as well, as there's no indication (yet) of special 'ignores defense' mods or similar. In those situations I'd still fall back to Howling Fist or Ascetic's Fury.

Using next-to-last stage of my Cat's Claws (d+20, dl+66, -10% def down) on an xp party on Seaboard Vultures in Misareaux. Did not use Footwork in this, since I was messing around with my -def weapons.

Data from the birds after xp ring wore off and our sync went up to lvl 77:

118 xp birds:

Motenten                    53527    34.49 %      67/0   100.00 %    332/1141   798.91 
 - Ascetic's Fury             573     1.07 %       1/0   100.00 %     573/573   573.00 
 - Asuran Fists             36116    67.47 %      42/0   100.00 %    567/1141   859.90 
 - Tornado Kick             16838    31.46 %      24/0   100.00 %     332/951   701.58

133 xp birds:

Motenten                    51972    34.10 %      70/0   100.00 %    447/1094   742.46 
 - Asuran Fists             30923    59.50 %      39/0   100.00 %    454/1094   792.90 
 - Dragon Kick                710     1.37 %       1/0   100.00 %     710/710   710.00 
 - Tornado Kick             20339    39.13 %      30/0   100.00 %     447/878   677.97

So Asuran was doing 17% to 22.5% more damage on average (though the gear I have is more focused on Asuran than Tornado). There's going to be a moderate bit of variance due to inconsistant use of Dia (rdm was stressed for MP at times, and lots of people went afk at one time or another), and the def down AE of my cat's claws (very nice improvement in damage when they proc'd). Unfortunately my Buffs By Time plugin doesn't separate out out weaponskills for comparing with Dia on vs off, so I'm not sure how much of the difference is due to that. Probably should update that.

I tended towards Asuran when I wasn't doing a chain since it's in my default weaponskill macro slot. In any case, this gives another data point in comparing the two weaponskills, so that we can probably expect Asuran to be between even and 20% better than Tornado when using normal H2H. More mod testing and such needs to be done to help verify the numeric side.


Also found a handy bit of its skillchain properties: Tornado Kick > Gekko is Fragmentation (I normally don't think about Gekko's secondary property of Reverberation). We were using that for our blm to burst on, alternating between Darkness and Fragmentation so recast timers wouldn't be a problem, and giving me a good number of uses to compare on. The 50% damage bonus for magic bursts was pretty impressive; Blizzard 4 and Thunder 4 doing ~1800 each, Burst II doing over 2500 when MB'd. Useful since the Seaboard Vultures have better than 6k HP each, compared to the ~4900 of Greater Colibri.


While holding TP for skillchains/magic bursts is usually considered wasteful, I do wonder about it now. We did it in this party just because it was fun, but more number-crunching needs to be done to see about its efficiency.


Holding TP to skillchain essentially robs you of more weaponskill damage down the line. The question is, how much damage are you losing, and how much are you gaining in exchange?

In the above party, typical ws numbers were in the 600 range when no debuffs were on, 800 range when either Dia III or the Cat's Claws def down was on, and 1000 range when both were on (very rough approximations). The sam was putting up somewhat similar numbers. Using 800 as the baseline.

Bliz 4/Thunder 4 were doing ~1200 damage when not burst, so were gaining about 600 damage from magic bursting. Burst II was gaining 1000 damage on the burst (1667 > 2662 on 133's, 1407 > 2503 on 118s; no idea why lower damage on the lower level birds).

The skillchain damage is much more tentative, since gear swaps usually cause the game to not show the damage. I have 7 Darkness chains averaging 615 each, and 9 Fragmentation chains averaging 342 each. Also one Light chain at the end of a 3-part for 1553. Fun.

So from this, we can consider the skillchain plus magic burst to have generated an additional 950 to 1350 damage. That's the equivalent of 120-170 TP (so holding up to 220-270 TP before skillchain), if one of the DDs had to hold onto TP waiting for the other, without considering however much additional damage the weaponskill itself did with the higher TP. Alternatively, both of them could have held to 60-80 TP over 100 and it would still balance out.


If you were to setup a party with 2 DD + blm with the intent of SC+MB, it seems like you'd want to work it such that the blm could nuke down the last 10% of the mob rather than using a weaponskill to finish it off (thus reduce amount of held TP while still allowing for skillchains), and then work together good skillchain + burst for general use. A single burst from the blm could do almost 1/3 of the mob's damage (~1800 out of ~6000 HP for the vultures).

Tornado Kick can handle both the opening and closing position. Tornado > Gekko / Tornado > Raging Rush / Tornado > SlugWinder do Fragmentation (burst Thunder IV); Tornado > Penta Thrust does Gravitation (burst Stone V); Asuran Fists > Tornado does Fusion (burst Fire IV); Tornado > Tornado and Guillotine > Tornado do Impaction (burst Thunder IV). Substitute AMII for any of the above where appropriate. The only real weak mix is pairing with a drg, since TK doesn't chain with Drakesbane at all; but you can do Tornado > Sonic Thrust for Scission, and burst Stone V.

In other words, there's plenty of options to choose from when chaining. The mobs that we're fighting now seems to have notably more HP than our little pink friends, so the extra damage from SC+MB can reduce fight times without being excessive overkill.

In a way, this actually shows a bit of foresight into the needs of the skillchain properties of Tornado Kick. If you're using the +0 dmg OAT/OA2-3 weapons you're pretty much restricted to TK as your weaponskill (or maybe an occasional Dragon Kick). If skillchains are indeed going to be that much of a benefit and you're only using one weaponskill, you need that weaponskill to be fairly flexible.


Anyway, thoughts?



Edited, Jun 27th 2010 8:53pm by Kinematics

New set of TK numbers, more fully fleshed out. Used /thf this time to reduce error, and reconfigured TP build and target mobs to always get exact values.


Quick Summary

fTP: 2.25
Mods: 37.5% STR / 30% VIT

Source data

Reference values:
Max crit: 3.15 pDIF
Min crit: ~2.7 pDIF
Most crits: 3.0+ (min/max ratio of 1.05)
Full Min/Max ratio: 3.15/2.7 = ~1.166

alpha confirmed as 0.85 at level 80.

H2H skill: 315 (37 base dmg, 55 base footwork dmg, 63 base damage with fStr added)
Str: 68
Vit: 70
[WSC = 41 if 30% str, 40% vit]
Store TP: +11 >> 100.8 TP per weaponskill

Baseline: +5 str, +0 vit, Footwork, no kick shoes
727
697
694
684
724
711

Seem to be staying in the 3.0+ range (1.063 min/max ratio), so taking 727 as peak. That puts base at 231.


Add damage: KKs (+25)
902
900
852
870
879
773
776

902/773 = 1.167, should be full range, so 902 is peak, and 287 base.

287 - 231 = 56
56 / 25 = 2.24

With rounding, can comfortably say that fTP is 2.25.


Add vit: Genbu's Kabuto + Melee Cape + Bibiki Seashell = +24 vit. No kick shoes
698
756
743
765
658

Ratio is 1.163, so treating 765 as peak. That makes base 243.

243 - 231 = 12 point increase in base from 24 vit.

12 / 2.25 (fTP) = 5.3

5.3 / .85 (alpha) = 6.3

6.3 / 24 = 25%


Reset, add str: Pallas, Black Belt, Forager's, Usu legs for +24 str. No kick shoes.
715
748
749
741
775
768
772

741 to 775 is about 5%, which covers the majority of the results.

775 peak is 247 base.

247 - 231 = 16

16 / 2.25 = 7.1

7.1 / .85 = 8.4

8.4 / 24 = ~35% Str


Estimating max values using slight variances on the mods:

Base: 63 dmg
Str: 68+29=97
Vit: 70

Assuming 35% Str/25% Vit:

97*.35 + 70*.25 = 51 * .85 = 43
(63+43) * 2.25 * 3.15 = 751
too low

Assuming 35% Str/30% Vit:

97*.35 + 70*.30 = 54 * .85 = 45
(63+45) * 2.25 * 3.15 = 765
too low

Assuming 40% Str/30% Vit:

97*.40 + 70*.30 = 59 * .85 = 50
(63+50) * 2.25 * 3.15 = 800
too high

Assuming 40% Str/25% Vit:

97*.40 + 70*.25 = 56 * .85 = 47
(63+47) * 2.25 * 3.15 = 779
good (775 max)


Base: 63 dmg
Str: 68+5=73
Vit: 70+24=94

Assuming 40% Str/25% Vit:

73*.40 + 94*.25 = 52 * .85 = 44
(63+44) * 2.25 * 3.15 = 758
slightly low (got 765 max)
another +1 would cap at 765
so 53-54 before alpha
35% str/30% vit would match


Assuming 37.5% Str/30% Vit:
73*.375 + 94*.30 = 55 * .85 = 46
(63+46) * 2.25 * 3.15 = 772
good (got 765)

Retry Str set:
97*.375 + 70*.30 = 57 * .85 = 48
(63+48) * 2.25 * 3.15 = 786
good (got 775)

Base set:
73*.375 + 70*.30 = 48 * .85 = 40
(63+40) * 2.25 * 3.15 = 730
good (got 727)

KKs set:
73*.375 + 70*.30 = 48 * .85 = 40
(88+40) * 2.25 * 3.15 = 907
good (got 902)

Absolutely fantastic post kine, Thank you very much.

Do you have posts set up the same way as this for other weapon skills hidden in other threads?
If not i say a thread with all of our top weapons skills and this kind of % info would be the greatest thread of all time.

Either way thanks for the hard work.

Given identical accuracy and attack...

Relative to Dragon Kick:

Tornado Kick gets about 39% more damage from fTP & number of hits.

Dragon Kick gets about 17% more damage from stat mods.

Net result: Tornado Kick is about 19% stronger than Dragon Kick.


Relative to Asuran Fists:

Asuran gets about 82% more damage from fTP and number of hits.

Tornado gets about 71% more damage from WSC in Footwork mode, using d23 Taipans for Asuran; Tornado would be about 82% stronger when compared vs Destroyers.

Tornado gets about 46% more damage from WSC in standard mode.

Net result: Asuran is ~25% stronger than Tornado in normal mode (matches data point of my xp party where Asuran was doing 18%-22% better than Tornado), and they're about equal when using Footwork, though Asuran may gain ~10% with the new weapons available.


However, that's with perfect accuracy. Asuran is hurt more by lower accuracy than Tornado Kick is. This impacts the fTP/number of hits part of the balance.

@95% accuracy: Asuran is 82% ahead.
@90% accuracy: Asuran is 78% ahead.
@85% accuracy: Asuran is 74% ahead.
@80% accuracy: Asuran is 70% ahead.

So for every 5% drop in hit rate, Asuran loses 4% of its lead. That puts Tornado equal to Asuran at 50% hit rate in normal mode (hopefully never reach that point, but possible on things like Mamool Lurkers), and 80% hit rate using Footwork (compared vs Taipan Fangs).


Obviously gear builds will differ, so they won't have identical acc/att, but this gives an idea of how it compares with the other weaponskills in general.